BAFTE Has decided pistol grip shotguns are not shotguns

[Uriel999]

http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-in-national/atf-position-on-pistol-grip-shotguns-creates-new-danger

Read the article, this is dangerous. Yes I realize this technically belongs in the bearing arms section, but mods please let this stay in general politics for a bit as this is a huge problem. I bet many people who come to this forum may own a pistol grip shotgun and never even visit the bearing arms section.


Certain commercially produced firearms do not fall within the definition of shotgun under the GCA even though they utilize a shotgun shell for ammunition. For example, firearms that come equipped with a pistol grip in place of the buttstock are not shotguns as defined by the GCA.


An October 27, 2010, letter from the Firearms Technology Branch ruled that such a firearm, with a 17" barrel and 26-1/4" overall length, was not subject to the National Firearms Act.

The BATFE is apparently trying to make millions upon millions of unregistered NFA destructive devices. Could this be a another way they plan to extort money from the people in short time?

[ChickenHawk]

These people (BATFE) are total clowns. They say a pistol grip "shotgun" is not a shotgun and an example with a 17" barrel is not subject to NFA regulations therefore it can't be a destructive device so it must be a rifle or a pistol. But it can't be a pistol because the fore grip would make it subject to NFA regulations so I guess it's a rifle? but then the bore size would make it a destructive device but it can't be a destructive device because then it would be subject to NFA regulations which it is not. Am I missing something?

[oyarde]

Could it be because of the 17" barrel length ? I think the assholes require all shotgun barrels to be 18" or more ?

[GunnyFreedom]

http://i42.tinypic.com/2096eky.png

[oyarde]

Bump

[RideTheDirt]

what if I have this http://iquestionauthority.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/remington_870_knoxx_tactical_a.jpg

[ChickenHawk]

Could it be because of the 17" barrel length ? I think the assholes require all shotgun barrels to be 18" or more ?

According to the article the BATFE stated that a shotgun with a pistol grip that had a 17" barrel was not subject to the NFA because it was not considered a shotgun. The implication is that it is considered a rifle which are allowed to have 16" barrels. But because of the bore size it would be a destructive device and subject to the NFA so what they are saying makes no sense.

[Pericles]

The situation is a conflict in ATF rulings. They have ruled that a devise that fires shotgun shells without a shoulder stock is not a shotgun. Weapons with bores in excess of a half inch that are not shotguns are destructive devices and subject to the NFA (thus $200 tax and LEO approval or trust). But the ATF has not enforce the destructive device ruling on shotgun shell weapons, which leaves the owners of such weapons subject to prosecution for violating the NFA at any time.

That is the controversy - if you have a rifle that misfires, you can be in the situation of Olafson, and spend time in prison. But if you have a pistol grip shotgun, nothing happens.

[Texan4Life]

As it stands right now a shotgun with a 17" barrel is illegal unless you have registered it with tax stamp.

[tangent4ronpaul]

According to the article the BATFE stated that a shotgun with a pistol grip that had a 17" barrel was not subject to the NFA because it was not considered a shotgun. The implication is that it is considered a rifle which are allowed to have 16" barrels. But because of the bore size it would be a destructive device and subject to the NFA so what they are saying makes no sense.

I thought a 16" barrel on a rifle make it a "short barreled rifle" so requiring the $200 tax stamp and background check or trust.

-t

[Bern]

what if I have this ...

The ATF letter talks about shotguns that have a pistol grip in place of a buttstock. If you have a pistol grip *with* a buttstock, this doesn't apply to you. Knoxx recoil reducing stocks with pistol grips should be all good as I read it.

[fisharmor]

The BATFE is apparently trying to make millions upon millions of unregistered NFA destructive devices. Could this be a another way they plan to extort money from the people in short time?

I think it's much more likely that they're simply too busy smelling their own kidneys to make this make any sense.

Despite their colon spelunking, I'm sure someone at the top realizes that without millions of gun owners in this country, BATFE has 20% of its business gone. It's in their interest to keep millions of gun owners in the country - I think they realize that having the children of relatively peaceful religious nutjobs locked in a building and burned alive isn't exactly a sustainable mission statement, so they kind of need the gun owners.

They'll always do crap like this regulatory snafu - they have to in order to justify their existence. But I seriously doubt they'll ever go door-to-door looking for the latest "illegal" firearm.

Of course, they'll be more than happy to put people in PMITA prison whenever they find one incidentally. But they'll get away with doing it one at a time.

[Koz]

what if I have this http://iquestionauthority.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/remington_870_knoxx_tactical_a.jpg

Looks like a good Turkey stick to me.

[Esor]

what if I have this http://iquestionauthority.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/remington_870_knoxx_tactical_a.jpg

We call that 'sexy'

[ChickenHawk]

I thought a 16" barrel on a rifle make it a "short barreled rifle" so requiring the $200 tax stamp and background check or trust.

-t

Minimum for a rifle is 16 and minimum for a shotgun is 18.

[puppetmaster]

http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-in-national/atf-position-on-pistol-grip-shotguns-creates-new-danger

Read the article, this is dangerous. Yes I realize this technically belongs in the bearing arms section, but mods please let this stay in general politics for a bit as this is a huge problem. I bet many people who come to this forum may own a pistol grip shotgun and never even visit the bearing arms section.





The BATFE is apparently trying to make millions upon millions of unregistered NFA destructive devices. Could this be a another way they plan to extort money from the people in short time?

Certain commercially produced firearms do not fall within the definition of shotgun under the GCA even though they utilize a shotgun shell for ammunition. For example, firearms that come equipped with a pistol grip in place of the buttstock are not shotguns as defined by the GCA.

if you have a buttstock and a grip then your good......right

[Toureg89]

These people (BATFE) are total clowns. They say a pistol grip "shotgun" is not a shotgun and an example with a 17" barrel is not subject to NFA regulations therefore it can't be a destructive device so it must be a rifle or a pistol. But it can't be a pistol because the fore grip would make it subject to NFA regulations so I guess it's a rifle? but then the bore size would make it a destructive device but it can't be a destructive device because then it would be subject to NFA regulations which it is not. Am I missing something?

they do this shit all the time. why else do you think we have rifles that are known as pistols as long as they dont have stocks?

[Toureg89]

Could it be because of the 17" barrel length ? I think the assholes require all shotgun barrels to be 18" or more ?
that's what i'm thinking. i'm pretty sure the SBS category regulates shotguns with barrel lengths under 18"

[smithtg]

These people (BATFE) are total clowns. They say a pistol grip "shotgun" is not a shotgun and an example with a 17" barrel is not subject to NFA regulations therefore it can't be a destructive device so it must be a rifle or a pistol. But it can't be a pistol because the fore grip would make it subject to NFA regulations so I guess it's a rifle? but then the bore size would make it a destructive device but it can't be a destructive device because then it would be subject to NFA regulations which it is not. Am I missing something?

another government entity that needs to go to reduce the deficit. They spent years and much $$ fighting hobby model rocket citizens over what a "high power" rocket motor was. Guess what - they lost too

[oyarde]

another government entity that needs to go to reduce the deficit. They spent years and much $$ fighting hobby model rocket citizens over what a "high power" rocket motor was. Guess what - they lost too

It should be the first to go .

[oyarde]

All firearm laws are illegal laws and violate the Constitution. " Shall not be afringed " . Anyone who voted for them has committed a crime against the American people . No firearm laws and no agency to enforce illegal laws .

[Humanae Libertas]

OMFG - pistol grip! That so dangerous, that adds 1000x power to teh shotgun! Ban it! :rolleyes:

Reminds me of this:

YouTube - What is a barrel shroud? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9rGpykAX1fo)

[oyarde]

So , if I were to have a 12 ga with a pistol grip and the barrel is 18" is it still legal ??

[Pericles]

We are getting off track here - remember the legal definition of a shotgun:

(18) "Short-barreled shotgun" means a shotgun having one or more barrels less than eighteen inches in length and any weapon made from a shotgun by any means of modification if such modified weapon has an overall length of less than twenty-six inches.

(19) "Shotgun" means a weapon with one or more barrels, designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed shotgun shell to fire through a smooth bore either a number of ball shot or a single projectile for each single pull of the trigger.

This is important because 18 year olds can buy shotguns and rifles, for any thing else classified as a gun, the age is 21. Obviously, this ruling that pistol grip weapons without shoulder stocks with shotgun barrels was a ruling to prevent 18 to 20 year olds from buying this type of weapon.

Now it gets interesting. Look at the legal definition of a destructive device:

The term "destructive device" means (1) any explosive, incendiary, or poison gas (A) bomb, (B) grenade, (C) rocket having a propellent charge of more than four ounces, (D) missile having an explosive or incendiary charge of more than one-quarter ounce, (E) or (F) similar device; (2) any type of weapon by whatever name known which will, or which may be readily converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an explosive or other propellant, the barrel or barrels of which have a bore of more than one-half inch in diameter, except a shotgun or shotgun shell which the Secretary finds is generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes; and (3) any combination of parts either designed or intended for use in converting any device into a destructive device as defined in subparagraphs (1) and (2) and from which a destructive device may be readily assembled. The term "destructive device" shall not include any device which is neither designed nor redesigned for use as a weapon; any device, although originally designed for use as a weapon, which is redesigned for use as a signaling, pyrotechnic, line throwing, safety, or similar device; surplus ordnance sold, loaned, or given by the Secretary of the Army pursuant to the provisions of section 4684(2), 4685, or 4686 of title 10 of the United States Code; or any other device which the Secretary finds is not likely to be used as a weapon, or is an antique or is a rifle which the owner intends to use solely for sporting purposes.

Thus, the larger diameter weapons are destructive devices unless:

1-a shotgun with a suitable sporting purpose
2-rifles with a sole sporting purpose
3-antiques
4-things that arent weapons (either by design, or by likely use)
4-weapons redesigned to be used signaling/line throwing/etc

Which "out" does pistol grip only smoothbores fit? They have already been declared not to be shotguns, so (1) is out ..........

And all destructive devices have to be registered as NFA weapons. This is the issue.

[Anti Federalist]

(C) rocket having a propellent charge of more than four ounces, ,

So what's this?

http://xenophilius.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/big1.jpg

[Rael]

So what's this?


The world's largest buttplug?

[smithtg]

So what's this?

http://xenophilius.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/big1.jpg

these guys have to get BATFE permits - I know alot of them. They threatened to "raid" hobby launches, but have since backed down. Oh yeah and whats stupid is that rocket propellent isnt an explosive by definition. You can hardly make it explode (like a bomb) unless you try awfully hard. It burns pretty fast and intense, but nothing like common explosives. this is what they lost in the court case in trying to regulate rocket propellant