Sign waving? Usefull or waste of time?

[Elwar]

I see a lot of people saying that sign waving is a big waste of time. That instead of waving signs we should be doing X or Y or Z...

I happen to think that sign waving is a useful tool.

Not in getting the word out about Ron Paul or convincing someone to vote for Ron Paul based on the fact that they saw 10 people on the side of the road with a sign.

But for the fact that of those 10 people who are on the side of the road 8-9 of them would never have gotten involved "physically" in the campaign before that. Sure they might have talked Ron Paul up online or gone out to vote, but instead they got off of their butts and took the first step of standing on the side of the road with a sign in their hands.

I believe that was a big part of recruiting any grassroots organization.

People need to go through a natural progression if they're not used to campaigning.

Step 1: Sign up for a local meetup group.
Step 2: Go to a local meetup group event. Sign waving, organization meeting, even just meeting at a bar to drink and discuss strategy.
Step 3: This is when you bring in the X, Y and Z. The stuff that actually brings in the votes (canvassing, phone calls, etc).

Going from Step 2 to 3 is a lot easier than going from Step 1 to Step 3.

[brandon]

Waste of time, except maybe a couple days before the election.

[Original_Intent]

I agree (with the OP). Even if it does not recruit anyone that sees the sign, it is a good first step of actually doing something for the sign waver. I felt the same way about the sign MAKING parties, it was great to meet other people and get involved and feel like you were doing SOMETHING ANYTHING to get involved.

And I think there is an impact on people who see it. Yes it may be a bit of a turn off or seem not as professional as a billboard or mass produced yard signs. But I think largely it says something to the observer that this isn;t just some candidate that someone was willing to put a sign in their yard, this is a candidate that people find worthy of committing time to promoting.

For the people putting down the sign wavers I wsay F U we wouldn;t be here today without the sign makers and the sign wavers. Weall probably need to move on to more productive things such as trying to be precinct chairs, involvement with meetups and so forth - but far better sign waving than doing nothing.

[jdmyprez_deo_vindice]

I honestly believe that sign waving is a good thing not only because it gets people involved but it increases name recognition. I know to many of us that does not seem like a problem but I can tell you first hand that it is. There is still an overwhelming number of people out there who have no idea who Ron Paul is let alone other liberty candidates we promote.

[eok321]

Effective if on a large enough scale..

http://nyletterpress.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/ron-march-march-picture.jpg

[Matt Collins]

There are more productive things one could be doing with their time instead: going door to door in their precinct.

[Madly_Sane]

I'm not going to say they're not effective, but there are other things that are more effective that people could be using their time on instead. The way I see it is that a lot of people aren't informed about certain issues, but when they see 100+ people standing outside a building chanting and holding up signs, then they realize that there is an issue.

[Bern]

I think people know who Ron Paul is after the 2008 campaign. Many have already formed opinions. The trick now isn't getting people to notice him. It's getting people to listen to what he is saying with an open mind.

[Elwar]

There are more productive things one could be doing with their time instead: going door to door in their precinct.

Would it be easier to find people to go door to door from a bunch of people that are out physically doing something for Ron Paul or trying to find them online?

[angelatc]

I think that there are certainly more productive things to be done with said time, but there are a lot of people who simply won't do anything except waving signs, so there's no reason not to do it. It's certainly better than doing nothing.

[TonySutton]

The wonderful thing about grassroots is each group can do those things which they believe will help in their area. If some areas do not want to do sign waves that is fine. It follows our philosophy of decentralized authority!

[Matt Collins]

The wonderful thing about grassroots is each group can do those things which they believe will help in their area. If some areas do not want to do sign waves that is fine. It follows our philosophy of decentralized authority!
Of course, but there are proven methods to winning elections. Sign waving isn't one of them.:)

[JeremyDahl]

Depends what your goals are...

If you are trying to get someone elected... for President.
It is extremely inefficient in use of man power.



Stick to protests and right before elections.

[ItsTime]

In 2008 it was good. Now we need to focus on things like door to door, getting tv ads up ect. It is time to grow as a grassroots effort.

[BuddyRey]

Sign waving is never a waste of time. Most sheeplike voters need to know that there's buzz around a candidate before they'll give him or her their vote. Sign waves, overpass banners, etc. help rev up that feeling of excitement that keeps people already in the movement inspired and brings new people in. It is indispensable activism.

[sluggo]

Regarding the signs, a comment from a co-worker during the 2008 elections really stuck with me.

He told me that he didn't think much of Ron Paul because many of the homemade signs posted around town were of really poor quality. He didn't think that someone with crappy signs was worth serious consideration.

I'm not saying he was right, but I can understand his point. Shoddy presentation will do more harm than good when it comes to swaying the masses.

[dannno]

It is hard to convince somebody 1 on 1 that Ron Paul has a lot of support, but when people start seeing large groups of people doing sign waves it gives the perception that there is some good support out there.

It's certainly NOT a waste of time if the alternative is sitting at home watching TV.

[TonySutton]

Of course, but there are proven methods to winning elections. Sign waving isn't one of them.:)

You are assuming that sign waves are all about winning voters. I disagree, they are about creating "buzz" and invigorating your grass roots! If you do sign waves correctly they can do a ton for you come election day.

[pacelli]

It is a waste of time if the intended outcome is getting people to vote for Ron Paul.

It is not a waste of time if the intended outcome is motivating the grassroots.

[GunnyFreedom]

signwaving DOES help, but it only really helps to rally the base. Sometimes you really do need to rally the base. Don't expect signwaving to help win any votes though, it won't. Every tool in it's proper place.

[Brian4Liberty]

Regarding the signs, a comment from a co-worker during the 2008 elections really stuck with me.

He told me that he didn't think much of Ron Paul because many of the homemade signs posted around town were of really poor quality. He didn't think that someone with crappy signs was worth serious consideration.

I'm not saying he was right, but I can understand his point. Shoddy presentation will do more harm than good when it comes to swaying the masses.

Generally agree. Sign waving, especially home made signs, comes across to most people as fringe.

[Matt Collins]

You are assuming that sign waves are all about winning voters. I disagree, they are about creating "buzz" and invigorating your grass roots! If you do sign waves correctly they can do a ton for you come election day.GOTV phone calls are much more effective. Rand just proved that.

[angelatc]

Of course, but there are proven methods to winning elections. Sign waving isn't one of them.:)

I actually agree with you here. But, and I'm sure you know this, it's not like the people waving signs would be working a phone bank if they were not waving signs.

After seeing the enthusiasm from the sign wavers, I was surprised at how hard it was to get volunteers to do the stuff like staffing the phones and knocking on doors.

[specsaregood]

It is a great way to initiate new recruits and get their phone numbers so you can harass them into participating in more productive efforts later on.


After seeing the enthusiasm from the sign wavers, I was surprised at how hard it was to get volunteers to do the stuff like staffing the phones and knocking on doors.

Which is why you go to a sign waving event, with printouts of voter lists/addresses and printouts of maps of neighborhoods next to the sign waving location. Wave for awhile, then pressure them into coming with you to knock on doors. Just tell em to tag along at first, once they do so for awhile they'll feel comfortable enough to do houses on their own.

[Matt Collins]

I actually agree with you here. But, and I'm sure you know this, it's not like the people waving signs would be working a phone bank if they were not waving signs.

After seeing the enthusiasm from the sign wavers, I was surprised at how hard it was to get volunteers to do the stuff like staffing the phones and knocking on doors.
You would be surprised.

[Maximus]

I attended the last Ron Paul sign wave after the election. I meet 3 other people for the first time, we exchanged numbers, talked politics, started making plans for the future.

I think sign waves have a use in terms of getting volunteers together, pumped, and coordinated.

I don't think they will win an election. It has its place.

[Elwar]

I attended the last Ron Paul sign wave after the election. I meet 3 other people for the first time, we exchanged numbers, talked politics, started making plans for the future.

I think sign waves have a use in terms of getting volunteers together, pumped, and coordinated.

I don't think they will win an election. It has its place.

Ya, I remember that day...I was at home, not canvassing my neighborhood.

But at least I didn't waste my time with a sign wave.

:rolleyes:

[Agorism]

It as very effective this last weekend because people saw that the Paul people were already out campaigning while the others hadn't even thought about what to do yet.

[Live_Free_Or_Die]

These threads always crack me up. It's just a bunch of noise. Campaigns are like every other form of selling on the planet.

Canvass -> Qualify -> Close -> Followup

Everyone here has an opinion but no one has any numbers behind their opinions. I might as well bring up the education genie again. People do not have any clue how much money it takes to get a sale. The only thing that makes politics different than any other product is what you are selling and there will be some market trends in the niche market of politics (like it might require knocking on 100 doors do get one vote versus 3 votes per 100 doors with another product).

Big companies have figured it out which is why they spend most of there money on TV. When they open a market there will be a combination of media marketing and a grand opening. A Ron Paul event with Ron Paul in person in your town is your grand opening.

When you canvass you are not trying to close, only qualify. Qualify for what? Qualify for an opportunity to make a sales pitch. Can I schedule an appointment to come over and talk about the platform of Dr. Paul with you and your spouse.

If politics was some normal business when you showed up for the appointment and successfully closed your sales pitch on the platform of Dr. Paul you would be asking for a $100 donation to the campaign and you would earn a commission for every sale.

Not with politics though. Your rulers expect you to get out there and work your ass off for them for free.

Would the sign wave critics show me the cost/benefit ratio? What are you marketing exactly when you sign wave? Google Ron Paul? Does that create any opportunity for followup? What is the: Will sit down in front of a keyboard when they get home and Google ratio?

[GunnyFreedom]

These threads always crack me up. It's just a bunch of noise. Campaigns are like every other form of selling on the planet.

Canvass -> Qualify -> Close -> Followup

Everyone here has an opinion but no one has any numbers behind their opinions.

Pretty much agree with everything you say except...

I think I do in fact have some numbers behind my opinion. 11k vs 10k in fact. ;) If it helps, I have drawn the same conclusions as your post above.

Work the precincts, targeted canvass. GOTV. I didn't just "ride the wave" as no other local race in my region changed hands but mine, so what we did had real impact. Your "Canvass -> Qualify -> Close -> Followup" methodology is more defined than what I was working with, but it amounts to the same thing.

Listen everybody, I want to see a victory RP12 as badly as anybody on these forums, and because of my election to the NC State House I am not going to have the time to canvass and campaign for RP like I did in 2008. That means we need you, all of you to get damn serious about this and I mean right now, not a year from now but now.

We need to get lists of Republican Primary voters in every district in the US, and if we started right now, I bet we could literally visit every republican primary voter in America in time for the 2012 GOP primary.

Are we willing to at least give it a shot? :)

[Joseph]

Sign waving was not a waist of time, neither was putting up signs on overheads and posting signs anywhere and everywhere. The sign waving culture in all it's forms was one of the most successful if not the single most successful way we spread the message of Ron Paul. The term "Ron Paul" was on the list of the top 10 most googled items. (From what I hear, I don't have a source for that.) The two other things that got him recognition were winning the text message polls in the debates and the big money days: Nov 5th and Dec 16th. Those were the top three things that got him recognition and they made up the overwhelmingly large majority of how people heard about him. We can not get rid of the sign waving or the putting up of signs, it was far too effective.

[Elwar]

I drive up and down my busy commercial road every day and there are sign wavers there every day.

The gold store, the income tax place, the pizza place (usually gets me thinking about having some pizza as I'm going home), the seafood place, etc...

If sign wavers are a waste, somebody might want to tell these store owners since they're paying these people hourly.

[JamesButabi]

Effective and easy to do. Not only that, but you can discuss alternate strategy while sign waving with a meetup. Thats more effective than sitting inside planning.

[radiofriendly]

This is the final word on sign waving.

It is useful as a break between doing things that are actually useful.

[ItsTime]

If you sign wave please consider this. It worked in my county (Ron got 20%+ of the vote).

Pick a day, sign wave at a busy intersection for a few hours. You can even sign wave in shifts. While one shift is sign waving the other shift is going door to door. Then after the sign wave you all go door to door.

This is HUGE. You will get a lot of positive response to this.

[Feenix566]

Sign waving is FUN!

How many Americans can name all the primary candidates from both parties in the 2008 election? Like 1% maybe? How many Americans can name every starting quarterback in the NFL? A lot more! Why? Because watching football is FUN!

If you want more people to get involved in politics, you have to make it fun. Sign waving is how you do that.

[Deborah K]

I say they're useful, even when the signs are crappy like miine are:

http://i56.tinypic.com/2md41gl.jpg

That's one of my grandkids. He's going to be a liberty warrior someday!

[Michael P]

GOTV phone calls are much more effective. Rand just proved that.

I agree 100%. I also don't think Schiff would have come close to 24% without it.

I don't think sign waving hurts, it can only help, so if people want to sign wave... I say go for it!

my 2c

[TruckinMike]

Is sign waving a waste of time?

ABSOLUTELY NOT!

Sign waving/banners/coroplast signs got an enormous amount of attention for Ron Paul -- Just simple name recognition alone would have been leaps and bounds ahead of NEVER hearing of him. The signs did more than that, they inspired people to look up his name when they got home.

If Ron Runs again I have a website in the making about making and posting signs for Ron Paul.

How to make, where to place, and when. Many people posted coroplast signs for Ron , however if every RP supporter (one million +) would have placed ten 18"x24" signs in their neighborhood, RP would have had over 10 million signs posted with his name.

My goal is to get every supporter to do that very thing -- I will sale a screen printing screen at cost to any meetup group or persons that would like to mass produce these signs for around $1.25 each including coroplast board and ink(waterbased). --- A printer charges around $5 each with an order of 100+.

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4102/4809916174_f47c1e03bc_m.jpg http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4077/4809929806_1e55a1cf7c_m.jpg

I'm working on another graphic with a dude on a surf board - - Hanging Ten while holding an RP for Pres sign.:)

Hopefully I can motivate folks to do this... I'll try.

TMike

[Deborah K]

Yaye Mike!

[Deborah K]

http://i55.tinypic.com/aw9co3.gif

The R3VOLution signs were put up ALL OVER D.C. by Ernest Hancock and his crew for the RevMarch. Hundreds of them.

[TruckinMike]

http://i55.tinypic.com/aw9co3.gif

The R3VOLution signs were put up ALL OVER D.C. by Ernest Hancock and his crew for the RevMarch. Hundreds of them.

Yes, they were great! Imagine if every city had an Ernest Hancock.:eek:

We may see that in 2012 -- I Can't wait!

TMike

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2333/2253049491_1346ca5065_m.jpg

[libertybrewcity]

Effectiveness Scale
(1 being the best, 10 being the worst)

1. going door to door
2..
...3...4 Phone banking...
5.Direct Mail..
6...7...8...9...10...11...12...13...14...15 sign waving

Have you ever been persuaded to vote for someone by a sign? Think about it in terms of your own experiences and people you know. Epic fail except maybe when there is nothing else to do on election day...but there is always something else to do.

[Eric21ND]

I think people have to put the sign waving into perspective. We were dealing with a media blackout, we had to do something to get Ron's name out there. So name recognition was a major reason for sign waving. The other reason was that when the media did mention Ron they said he had little to no support, or his supporters were just a few guys living in their mom's basement. We wanted to show our real numbers, both to the general public and ourselves for morale purposes.

[AZ Libertarian]

I think that there are certainly more productive things to be done with said time, but there are a lot of people who simply won't do anything except waving signs, so there's no reason not to do it. It's certainly better than doing nothing.(emphasis mine - Ed)

To put Political Activism in perspective, let's liken it to a game of Poker.

Standing ANYWHERE with a sign in one's hands, or attaching it to a fence IS THE ANTE.

Going door-to-door, talking with people (who are usually inquiring because they saw the sign), or phone banking IS THE BET.

When supporters of the opposing Candidate do the same, they SEE YOUR BET, and when they contribute to that Campaign, that is THE RAISE.

Voting on Election Day is THE CALL.
__________________________________________________ ______________

In both games (Politics and Poker) the ONLY factor determining how long a Player (Voter) stays in the game is his confidence in the validity of his cards (Candidate)! MANY times (more than I can count) I've put in my ante, gotten my cards, and folded without putting anything else into THE POT. Why? Because of THEIR LOW FACE VALUE. Many voters see the same thing in their Candidate, and do not have the capital they need to make THE BET! So they FOLD before going any further. Does this have VALUE? Damn right it does. Without all the ANTES, there is no base POT to begin with! Without all the Sign-Wavers showing the Public that people Like Ron Paul has POPULAR SUPPORT, there would BE NO R3VOLUTION.


Sign-waving is a GATEWAY DRUG - the rush of someone smiling and honking and waving at you emphatically because they really like your sign is addictive!!!

Before you know it, you'll be in your Senator's office asking heatedly why he or she doesn't honor their Oath of Office... LOL.

[JeremyDahl]

If it is worth something, It is worth working hard for.

They do not sign wave in Victoria, TX to keep Ron elected.

[Roxi]

Sign waving is never a waste of time. Most sheeplike voters need to know that there's buzz around a candidate before they'll give him or her their vote. Sign waves, overpass banners, etc. help rev up that feeling of excitement that keeps people already in the movement inspired and brings new people in. It is indispensable activism.

this

[CasualApathy]

Just the number of media mentions alone (despite the general blackout) with regards to the overwhelming amount of Ron Paul signs during the 08 election should be enough to merit the effort.

[VT_Bircher]

I personally find sign waving to be one of the most rewarding elements of campaigning. The Tea Party group I'm a member of in Vermont used sign waving all cycle and the biggest benefits I found from it were not only increasing name ID for our pro-liberty candidates, but for increasing group morale and membership recruitment. A lot of our strong Constitutionally principled members joined our group after randomly passing by a sign wave. It's also great for introducing people to the principles of liberty.

[Peace&Freedom]

There's political activity that may feel personally rewarding to the participant, but may be highly ineffective at getting your candidate votes or buzz. Before thousands of man-hours of effort go down the drain again, it has to be said now that the blimps, sign-waving, cable debate parties and the like did not win Paul a single primary, OR to create buzz sufficient to counter the media blackout. One was more likely to reach the right people via push polling to targeted GOP voter lists than waving signs in front of career nonvoters or hardcore Democrats.

I saw this misdirected effort happened a lot in NYC in 2007, as the major meet-up group organized one sign-waving and other 'outreach' event after another, almost always in mid-Manhattan where the population was overwhelmingly Democratic---IAW, this was no way to reach Republican primary voters, to convince them to vote for Paul in the GOP primary. If you really want to personally do time and labor-intensive activity that is more effective, go door-to-door in Republican neighborhoods. For even more efficiency, pool local cash resources to raise the money to pay for targeted flyer distribution and billboards in those GOP areas.

[libertarian4321]

There are more productive things one could be doing with their time instead: going door to door in their precinct.

Sure, there may be more productive things someone can do.

However, some people are just not going to go door to door. Some people are introverted and not willing to bang on a stranger's door and make a sales pitch. Others don't like it when people show up at their door to solicit, and are therefore unwilling to inflict the solicitation on someone else (you can count me in the latter group).

For those who aren't willing to bang on people's doors, and who don't have a ton of money to donate, sign waving and/or making/posting signs around town does help.

While I was on board with Ron Paul from day one, I didn't start to think he had any sort of real chance until I started noticing "Ron Paul for President" signs all over the country and seeing people doing sign waves/marches for Ron Paul. I'm sure for some people those signs are the first indication that the guy is even running. There is a HUGE percentage of the population that doesn't watch news talk TV or listen to talk radio.

Even simple stuff like bumper stickers work. On more than one occasion, I had co-workers see my Ron Paul bumper stickers and ask "Who is Ron Paul?" A couple of them became supporters after I told them.

[libertarian4321]

There's political activity that may feel personally rewarding to the participant, but may be highly ineffective at getting your candidate votes or buzz. Before thousands of man-hours of effort go down the drain again, it has to be said now that the blimps, sign-waving, cable debate parties and the like did not win Paul a single primary, OR to create buzz sufficient to counter the media blackout. One was more likely to reach the right people via push polling to targeted GOP voter lists than waving signs in front of career nonvoters or hardcore Democrats.

I saw this misdirected effort happened a lot in NYC in 2007, as the major meet-up group organized one sign-waving and other 'outreach' event after another, almost always in mid-Manhattan where the population was overwhelmingly Democratic---IAW, this was no way to reach Republican primary voters, to convince them to vote for Paul in the GOP primary. If you really want to personally do time and labor-intensive activity that is more effective, go door-to-door in Republican neighborhoods. For even more efficiency, pool local cash resources to raise the money to pay for targeted flyer distribution and billboards in those GOP areas.

Your point would be valid only if you assume that RP must get all his votes from old line Republicans, and has no use for bringing in new people to the GOP.

You are aware that a lot of Ron Paul's support came from people who normally do NOT vote in the Republican primary, aren't you?

Many of the hard core Ron Paul supporters I met were NOT old line GOP voters. They were independents, Libertarians, and even a fair number of DEMOCRATS. They didn't get on the RP bandwagon because of "GOP push polls."

Another thing, my observation was that RP's support trended very young. I was in my mid-40's and I felt downright ancient at most RP events. These folks are not the people you will reach by targeting your campaign to old line Republicans.

Ron Paul isn't going to win if you target only the old guard Republican white hairs- you need to reach new people- and this is one cheap and easy way to do it.

[libertarian4321]

If it is worth something, It is worth working hard for.

They do not sign wave in Victoria, TX to keep Ron elected.

I was at a Ron Paul sign wave in Victoria, TX!

[TheHumblePhysicist]

It is only cost effective in front of a television camera.

Therefore it should only be done at media events, or in mass numbers which will draw local media. You could even do a mass rally in every single major city in a state, on consecutive days, essentially buying yourself free media in every single city in the state before the election.

[libertarian4321]

Effectiveness Scale
Epic fail except maybe when there is nothing else to do on election day...but there is always something else to do.

You completely miss the point of sign waving.

It is NOT to lock up votes for Ron Paul.

The purpose is to get the candidate's name out. I guarantee that when we were doing most of the sign waving (summer and fall of 2007) the OVERWHELMING MAJORITY OF VOTERS DID NOT KNOW RON PAUL EXISTED (or thought he was a tall drag queen who used to have a show on MTV).

Remember, folks, most voters are NOT political wonks. They do not listen to talk radio. They don't watch Fox News, MSNBC, CNN, etc. The don't read newspapers. The probably pay little or no attention to junk political mailers (Hell, I am a political junkie, and I toss those things in the recycling bin as soon as I get them). They probably couldn't tell you who the current VP of the United States is, let alone pick out an obscure Presidential candidate.

You need to reach these people, and sign waving is a cheap and easy way to do it.

So yeah, it has value, especially when you have an unknown and underfunded candidate like Ron Paul.

[libertarian4321]

It is only cost effective in front of a television camera.



Given that the cost of sign waving is essentially nil, I'd argue that it's ALWAYS cost effective.

[TheHumblePhysicist]

Given that the cost of sign waving is essentially nil, I'd argue that it's ALWAYS cost effective.

C'mon Mr. Libertarian. Haven't you heard of an opportunity cost? Instead of waving signs, they could be knocking on doors, or placing calls, or making fliers.

[Peace&Freedom]

Your point would be valid only if you assume that RP must get all his votes from old line Republicans, and has no use for bringing in new people to the GOP.

You are aware that a lot of Ron Paul's support came from people who normally do NOT vote in the Republican primary, aren't you?

Many of the hard core Ron Paul supporters I met were NOT old line GOP voters. They were independents, Libertarians, and even a fair number of DEMOCRATS. They didn't get on the RP bandwagon because of "GOP push polls."

Another thing, my observation was that RP's support trended very young. I was in my mid-40's and I felt downright ancient at most RP events. These folks are not the people you will reach by targeting your campaign to old line Republicans.

Ron Paul isn't going to win if you target only the old guard Republican white hairs- you need to reach new people- and this is one cheap and easy way to do it.

And are you aware most of the young Paul supporters did not vote? Their 'support' did not materialize at the ballot box, consistent with the voting patterns of younger adults in general. Most of the 2007 Paul grassroots activity was misspent reaching unlikely-voters or Democratic populations, instead of the likely voter populations actually eligible to vote in the GOP primary (to enable him to win nomination).

If the energies were spent next time on older independents who ARE likely voters, both to persuade them to vote for Paul, or if Democrats, to even switch party registration in time to vote for him in the primaries, that would make more sense. But "the cheap and easy way" was not, and is not the more intelligent or effective way to go about actually getting Paul nominated and elected.

[ronpaulhawaii]

If sign-waving and rallies are a waste of time, why has the establishment been doing them for years?

[AZ Libertarian]

If sign-waving and rallies are a waste of time, why has the establishment been doing them for years?

C'mon, Mike! That answer has too much simplicity and common sense for the troglodytes arguing the fundamental top-down supervision to shut up do what you are told, they know better...

[ronpaulhawaii]

C'mon, Mike! That answer has too much simplicity and common sense for the troglodytes arguing the fundamental top-down supervision to shut up do what you are told, they know better...

:D

Always nice to have you drop by :)

[Peace&Freedom]

Sign-waving and rallies have been used by the establishment because they give the appearance of buzz and excitement to a campaign, that's all. The issue here was whether they deliver votes. The above activities are commonly used to augment the REAL strategies emphasized by successful candidates to win elections. The problem with the grassroots emphasis on sign-waving last time was, all too often, that WAS the top-down emphasis of the meet-ups.

If sign-waving and rallies were so useful for vote-getting, why isn't Ron Paul President?

[ronpaulhawaii]

Sign-waving and rallies have been used by the establishment because they give the appearance of buzz and excitement to a campaign, that's all.

Really? They only give the "appearance" of buzz and excitement? Or do they actually build buzz and excitement? Methinks they do, or else TPTB would not waste time and money on these activities


The issue here was whether they deliver votes. The above activities are commonly used to augment the REAL strategies emphasized by successful candidates to win elections. The problem with the grassroots emphasis on sign-waving last time was, all too often, that WAS the top-down emphasis of the meet-ups.

I don't think TPTB would waste time and money on them if they did not help "deliver votes". Whether through energizing a volunteer base, adding to the volunteer base, creating earned media, and other side benefits...


If sign-waving and rallies were so useful for vote-getting, why isn't Ron Paul President?

Because we were mostly all new-comers, we had little, or no, representation in the GOP, we are fighting a two-headed monster, and too many people were complacent. All of those things have been changing in our favor...

For certain, Sign waving and rallies are not at the top of the list of things that will GOTV, but to say it is a complete waste of time is wrong, IMO.

[JeremyDahl]

In politics, you must target your electorate base as much as possible.

Sign waving does not achieve this in its standard application.

This is why the power hungry do not highly advocate it to their supporters or utilize it strongly.

It is a small tool in the long run, and is but garnish on a campaign.

[Bman]

Unless you are an attractive female, waving signs is a waste of time.

[libertarian4321]

C'mon Mr. Libertarian. Haven't you heard of an opportunity cost? Instead of waving signs, they could be knocking on doors, or placing calls, or making fliers.

As I stated previously, a lot of people who will gladly volunteer to wave signs are NOT willing to bang on people's doors or interrupt their day by making an annoying political phone call.

For those people, you can either use them as sign wavers or they will do nothing at all.

[MRoCkEd]

I hope people who don't want to do anything besides wave signs suck it up and knock on some doors.

I definitely don't enjoy phone banking or canvassing, but I did it anyway.

I would say only people who have personality disorders that would make them more likely to hurt their cause by talking to people should wave signs.

[libertarian4321]

And are you aware most of the young Paul supporters did not vote?

Really? How do you know?

Please provide a link showing that most young Ron Paul supporters did not vote.


Their 'support' did not materialize at the ballot box, consistent with the voting patterns of younger adults in general.

Yes, young people do not vote in as large percentages as older people, because young people tend to be disengaged in the political process. However, young people who are paying enough attention to bother getting involved with a political campaign DO tend to vote. You can't use generalizations about ALL young people to cast aspersions on those who are involved.

Even if younger people are less likely to vote, it is pure idiocy to ignore them as a group just because they are "less likely" to show up. If you choose to ignore younger folks because older folks vote at 50% and younger folks vote at 25%, you are just tossing away votes. Remember, 25% of 1,000 is more than 0% of 1,000.

You should also note that I did not say sign waving ONLY helped get young people aboard. It also works for older folks.


Most of the 2007 Paul grassroots activity was misspent reaching unlikely-voters or Democratic populations, instead of the likely voter populations actually eligible to vote in the GOP primary (to enable him to win nomination).

That's your OPINION, mine differs. If we just target older, hard line Republicans, and IGNORE EVERYONE ELSE, Ron Paul has NO CHANCE. Ron Paul is just not that popular among old school Republicans- did you happen to notice how establishment Republicans did everything they could to ignore him, mock him, disrespect him, and exclude him?


If the energies were spent next time on older independents who ARE likely voters, both to persuade them to vote for Paul, or if Democrats, to even switch party registration in time to vote for him in the primaries, that would make more sense. But "the cheap and easy way" was not, and is not the more intelligent or effective way to go about actually getting Paul nominated and elected.

I'll say this for probably the fifth time: There are a LOT of people who will volunteer to sign wave, march, or go to rallies who simply WILL NOT bang on doors or make political phone calls. I'm one of them- I hate receiving annoying political phone calls and despise jackasses who pound on my door to sell a candidate, and I'm not willing to inflict that upon others.

For those volunteers (who are likely the majority), sign waving may be a good use of their time- far less of a "waste of time" than having them not do anything at all, which is what you'll get from them if you try and insist that they bang on door.

[Peace&Freedom]

Really? They only give the "appearance" of buzz and excitement? Or do they actually build buzz and excitement? Methinks they do, or else TPTB would not waste time and money on these activities.


The rallies show excitement (real or manufactured) for the choir that is already invested in, or being compensated by the candidate. The typical purpose is to get the media to pay some attention, by tricking them into thinking the campaign is catching fire with voters. I remember Mondale holding rather massive rallies in the weeks prior to being blown out by Reagan in '84. But contriving a buzz event is not the same thing as truly exciting new supporters. It's not NEW blood, or voters.

The point here is not to say sign waving et al was a total waste, but to say that assigning it the unbalanced, massive emphasis it got in 2007 would be a waste. When I have run third party campaigns, I have had the same kind of discussion with people who actually say campaign buttons (media dating back to the 1840's) are essential campaign media in the 21st century. I also know of many who are excited about funding a Ron Paul blimp again, and think therefore everybody else should be, despite lack of evidence it helped us with getting votes. I'm just saying, let's learn from the last campaign and not misallocate resources in unbalanced ways---otherwise, we haven't learned anything.

[ronpaulhawaii]

The rallies show excitement (real or manufactured) for the choir that is already invested in, or being compensated by the candidate. The typical purpose is to get the media to pay some attention, by tricking them into thinking the campaign is catching fire with voters. I remember Mondale holding rather massive rallies in the weeks prior to being blown out by Reagan in '84. But contriving a buzz event is not the same thing as truly exciting new supporters. It's not NEW blood, or voters.

Actually, my experience is that many of our supporters were brought in from sign-bombs, overpass banners, etc.. My experience is them telling me this exact thing, as we headed out to knock on doors, sat together making phone calls, or stood on a corner handing out lit. I don't think it is fair to compare the astro-turf events to our real grassroots.

Further, generating earned media is an important campaign tactic. Knocking on doors/making calls/etc.. is just not that newsworthy...


The point here is not to say sign waying et al was a total waste, but to say that assigning it the unbalanced, massive emphasis it got in 2007 would be a waste. When I have run third party campaigns, I have had the same kind of discussion with people who actually say campaign buttons (media dating back to the 1840's) are essential campaign media in the 21st century. I also know of many who are excited about funding a Ron Paul blimp again, and think therefore everybody else should be, despite lack of evidence it helped us with getting votes. I'm just saying, let's learn from the last campaign and not misallocate resources in unbalanced ways---otherwise, we haven't learned anything.

I mostly agree with you here about finding a balance. (Although I do think buttons and shirts spark informal discussion with people we would not normally reach.) My point in this thread is that it seems to be promoting the opposite extreme and will result in a different lack of balance...

[Eric21ND]

I do think sign waving would be quite valuable in the general election, the primary less so. As a side note, it was rather fun being out there with signs about Nov 5th and Dec 16th and people are like, "Huh?" and then they turn on the news and boom!

BTW I don't know why this is an either or proposition. I think we can do the typical campaigning and mix in a little sign making/waving.

[cswake]

YouTube - Ron Paul in the news North Carolina (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GUWgbJ1H6ww)

[jake]

Sign waving is never a waste of time. Most sheeplike voters need to know that there's buzz around a candidate before they'll give him or her their vote. Sign waves, overpass banners, etc. help rev up that feeling of excitement that keeps people already in the movement inspired and brings new people in. It is indispensable activism.

agreed. but I think we need to move to at least SOME professionally made overpass hung signs. the home-made look is good and all, but I think some people (older folks perhaps) are turned off by the non-official look. so a good mix of home-made and professionally made signs might be best.

[GunnyFreedom]

YouTube - Ron Paul in the news North Carolina

Where did all these people go? I am AWFUL familiar with Paulers statewide in NC, and by the time I got back from Super Tuesday in Alabama, these people in Charlotte were mostly gone. We still have a bunch of people out Charlotte way, but none of the people in that vid I recognize.

Whatever happened to "in for a penny, in for a pound?" :confused:

[StateHate]

I have access to a few ron paul voter and donor lists... they are made up of nearly the same party make up and age demographics as everyone else.


this being said, the county that ron won was won on single issues and hard hard campaigning