Discussions of Christianity on RonPaulForums

[tfelice]

Before I start here, let me qualify myself. I am 40 years old. I have been a follower of Dr. Paul for at least a dozen years. I am a lifelong Republican, an Evangelical Protestant, and I am an associate pastor of a new church plant in Central PA.

I have become concerned with the discussions on this site regarding Christian voters and the “Religious Right”. Some of you who are not Christian have a tendency to mock Christian beliefs and practices and/or lump all Christians into some single-minded group. The tone of these comments at many times is rude and not helpful for the growth of the Ron Paul voting base - at times comments that have been made are downright offensive. It is to the point, where I would not want to recommend to a new Ron Paul supporter to come to this site for fear someone here might offend their beliefs.

Survey data varies of course, but the general consensus is that 75% of Americans define themselves as Christians; 20% of Americans define themselves as Evangelicals; and 70% of Evangelicals vote Republican. Thus, a sizeable percentage of the people we need to support Dr. Paul define themselves as Christians.

Finally, I will remind you all that Dr. Paul is an Evangelical Christian. So when you mock the beliefs of Christians as a group, you are mocking our candidate of choice as well.

Please let us keep the tone in here civil so that we do not do anything to offend potential supporters or give our detractors another reason to paint us in a bad light.

[freelance]

Please let us keep the tone in here civil so that we do not do anything to offend potential supporters or give our detractors another reason to paint us in a bad light.

Amen!

[DrNoZone]

Welcome, welcome.

We can't control what people say here. A forum isn't the place to try and enact politically correct rules about speech. I would say if some are that offended, they really need to get out in the real world more often and thicken up their skin.

That said, I do think people could try and be a little more accepting and welcoming of differing beliefs (this includes being welcoming to people who are anti-Christianity).

[SouthernGuy15]

tfelice,

I'm a conservative Christian. My grandfather was a pastor in a very conservative church for 51 years before his death. I'm currently a member of a very conservative church.

To get strait to the point, the vast and overwhelming number of "Christians" in my church have been brainwashed into supporting the "War in Iraq." They read the Bible and profess salvation in one breath and in the next they support President Bush and his bloody war of aggression while chanting the mantra, "the powers that be are ordained by God." They literally think that we have to follow and support President Bush through thick and thin regardless of his policies! I've been told over and over again that it is our "duty" to support him at all times.

These Christians have been totally brainwashed by the big government neo-cons. They are more than willing to have all of their rights striped away in the name of safety, are blind to horrible tragedy that is the "War in Iraq", and could care less about small government!

To be blunt, many of them think censorship is a GOOD thing! They think the government should legislate the internet, morality, and our lives!

Most of these individuals have no idea what LIBERTY is all about.

I should say that not all Christians are this way. There are many Christians who do support freedom, liberty, and small government. But they are in the extreme minority. By the way, when I say Christian I don't mean someone who claims they were saved one time long ago. I mean someone that is actively trying to live like Christ and is probably a member of a church.

I think the Christian community needs to WAKE UP because they have been suckered into supporting big government, the violation of their rights, and an unconstitutional war!

Christians should support peace!

Quite frankly, who would Jesus bomb?!!!

[MsDoodahs]

Welcome!

Are you familiar with www.ronpaullibrary.com? That's a great site to use.

[tfelice]

SouthernGuy15,

I agree with you. Evangelicals were sold a bill of goods with Bush. He claimed to be a born-again Christian, but we see now from his own words that his profession is suspect. They were then told that supporting the war was part in parcel with supporting the troops and anyone who didn't support the war was anti-American. They have been suckered and we have an excellent opportunity to help them wake up.

Dr. Paul is the only top-tier candidate who is strongly pro-life, and is the only top-tier candidate that is an Evangelical Christian. The pro-life litmus test is one which we could use to generate a tremendous amount of new support.

[aksmith]

Before I start here, let me qualify myself. I am 40 years old. I have been a follower of Dr. Paul for at least a dozen years. I am a lifelong Republican, an Evangelical Protestant, and I am an associate pastor of a new church plant in Central PA.

I have become concerned with the discussions on this site regarding Christian voters and the “Religious Right”. Some of you who are not Christian have a tendency to mock Christian beliefs and practices and/or lump all Christians into some single-minded group. The tone of these comments at many times is rude and not helpful for the growth of the Ron Paul voting base - at times comments that have been made are downright offensive. It is to the point, where I would not want to recommend to a new Ron Paul supporter to come to this site for fear someone here might offend their beliefs.

Survey data varies of course, but the general consensus is that 75% of Americans define themselves as Christians; 20% of Americans define themselves as Evangelicals; and 70% of Evangelicals vote Republican. Thus, a sizeable percentage of the people we need to support Dr. Paul define themselves as Christians.

Finally, I will remind you all that Dr. Paul is an Evangelical Christian. So when you mock the beliefs of Christians as a group, you are mocking our candidate of choice as well.

Please let us keep the tone in here civil so that we do not do anything to offend potential supporters or give our detractors another reason to paint us in a bad light.

You make a very good point. I am not a Christian, but I have to share something with all Christians. Before this campaign, I was only vaguely aware of the strife between various types of Christians. It is disturbing. I have seen more "Christian" intolerance towards other Christians than I would ever believe possible. And suffering through two "Values Voter" charades has nearly made me nauseous.

I have seen homosexuals referred to as sodomites. Yeah, the Bible is wonderful, but we all know the term is loaded with hatred. I thought we were supposed to love our fellow man, or at least be tolerant while hoping they come to faith.

I have seen committed Christians refer to Hillary Clinton as Hillirag. And Hitlery. Or my personal favorite, The Beotch. Yeah, I get it, we don't like her. But aren't people of faith supposed to take on issues rather than spew hatred?

And I have seen more than one "Christian" refer to Romney as the guy who wears magic underwear. Well, I find Romney to be a distasteful, hate filled, intolerant thug. But many people in our movement happen to be LDS here in the West. This type of talk is bigoted. It is hateful. And it is hurtful to our cause.

My point is that all Christians have something in common. I think his name is Jesus Christ. And while I do not believe, I sure hope those who do will practice the tolerance they are supposed to be spreading around the world in his name. And the best example of that is a guy named Ron Paul, who is loathe to criticize even his harshest foes in any terms harsher than disagreeing with their policies. An excellent example to us all. A.K. Smith

[LibertyEagle]

It is to the point, where I would not want to recommend to a new Ron Paul supporter to come to this site for fear someone here might offend their beliefs.

First of all, welcome and thank you for your comments. I couldn't agree with you more.

It's only my opinion, but I would NOT send people here. Overall, this is a group of hardcore activists. It is not the place to send someone who is trying to get more information about Ron Paul, or is new to his campaign. I have admired Dr. Paul for more than 20 years and I almost ran out of here screaming many times, when I first joined.

It's much better to send them places like...
http://www.ronpaul2008.com/
http://www.ronpaullibrary.org/index.php
http://www.ronpaullibrary.org/books.php (Several of his books. Many available as free downloads).
http://www.ronpaulaudio.com/
http://www.ronpaulnation.com/tv.html
http://gunowners.org/pres08/paul.htm
http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/
http://www.dailypaul.com/

[SouthernGuy15]

I have seen homosexuals referred to as sodomites. Yeah, the Bible is wonderful, but we all know the term is loaded with hatred. I thought we were supposed to love our fellow man, or at least be tolerant while hoping they come to faith.

I have seen committed Christians refer to Hillary Clinton as Hillirag. And Hitlery. Or my personal favorite, The Beotch. Yeah, I get it, we don't like her. But aren't people of faith supposed to take on issues rather than spew hatred?

And I have seen more than one "Christian" refer to Romney as the guy who wears magic underwear. Well, I find Romney to be a distasteful, hate filled, intolerant thug. But many people in our movement happen to be LDS here in the West. This type of talk is bigoted. It is hateful. And it is hurtful to our cause.

My point is that all Christians have something in common. I think his name is Jesus Christ. And while I do not believe, I sure hope those who do will practice the tolerance they are supposed to be spreading around the world in his name. And the best example of that is a guy named Ron Paul, who is loathe to criticize even his harshest foes in any terms harsher than disagreeing with their policies. An excellent example to us all. A.K. Smith

As Christians we should NOT tolerate sin. Homosexuality is an ABOMINATION! Those who are homosexuals are sodomites!

However, we should care about them and witness to them. We should LOVE the sinner, but HATE the sin.

I'm not tolerant of sin. I'm tolerant of people's rights. Everyone has the right to live their life however they see fit. For example, if President Clinton had hired fifty prostitutes it would have been his right. However, I would have the right to say that it was totally wrong. But anyone that said he should be removed from the White House is a big government goon in my opinion!

Also, a homosexual has the right to say that I am an evil freak for being strait. I have no right to censor him.

[ClampIt]

I have become concerned with the discussions on this site regarding Christian voters and the “Religious Right”. Some of you who are not Christian have a tendency to mock Christian beliefs and practices and/or lump all Christians into some single-minded group. The tone of these comments at many times is rude and not helpful for the growth of the Ron Paul voting base - at times comments that have been made are downright offensive. It is to the point, where I would not want to recommend to a new Ron Paul supporter to come to this site for fear someone here might offend their beliefs.

Survey data varies of course, but the general consensus is that 75% of Americans define themselves as Christians; 20% of Americans define themselves as Evangelicals; and 70% of Evangelicals vote Republican. Thus, a sizeable percentage of the people we need to support Dr. Paul define themselves as Christians.

Please let us keep the tone in here civil so that we do not do anything to offend potential supporters or give our detractors another reason to paint us in a bad light.

Religion is belief without evidence; science is evidence without belief. Ask any scientist what percent of that which could be scientifically known, is known. Any honest man also knows the answer which is scantly above zero. What's the trend? The more we know, the more we know we don't know. Given that, it follows that it will never rule over religion but must be merely content with winning every battle.

We all know the weaknesses of religion, but few are willing to acknowledge its strengths. Faith loses every battle to science, but it always wins the war. If science ignores religion, it will be served hemlock.

Your point is well made.

[LibertyEagle]

As Christians we should NOT tolerate sin. Homosexuality is an ABOMINATION! Those who are homosexuals are sodomites!

However, we should care about them and witness to them. We should LOVE the sinner, but HATE the sin.

I'm not tolerant of sin. I'm tolerant of people's rights. Everyone has the right to live their life however they see fit. For example, if President Clinton had hired fifty prostitutes it would have been his right. However, I would have the right to say that it was totally wrong. But anyone that said he should be removed from the White House is a big government goon in my opinion!

Also, a homosexual has the right to say that I am an evil freak for being strait. I have no right to censor him.

Matthew 7:1-5.

"Judge not, that you be not judged. "For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you.

"And why do you look at the speck in your brother's eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye?"

[SouthernGuy15]

You are not judging when you say sin is a sin! The Bible has already judged!

[LibertyEagle]

Faith loses every battle to science, but it always wins the war.

You sure about that? :eek:

[LibertyEagle]

You are not judging when you say sin is a sin! The Bible has already judged!

YOU are not God!

Take the plank out of YOUR OWN EYE!

[fj45lvr]

The is no evidence that religion and science are incompatible. Science is only a method of understanding.....now there are conflicts in "theories" and "religion" but theories are not "science" itself.



I realize your concerns and I agree 100% about some people....it is a maturity thing....unfortunately there are alot of immature Paul supporters.

[SouthernGuy15]

YOU are not God!

Take the plank out of YOUR OWN EYE!

I am NOT God. But God tells us IN THE BIBLE what is right and what is wrong.

Homosexuality is a SIN and an ABOMINATION!

That is the good thing about the Bible. It tells us what is a sin and what is not a sin. We are not judging anyone.

[SouthernGuy15]

Liberty,

By the way, I think sex before marriage is also a sin because it says so in the Bible. But if 1000 adults wanted to rent a convention center and have an orgy that would be their right to do so! I would fight for their right to do so!

But I would also say they are SINNING!

[LibertyEagle]

I am NOT God. But God tells us IN THE BIBLE what is right and what is wrong.

Homosexuality is a SIN and an ABOMINATION!

That is the good thing about the Bible. It tells us what is a sin and what is not a sin. We are not judging anyone.

EVERYONE sins. Even you. So before you feel the need to condemn others for their sin, why don't you work on stopping your own?

"And why do you look at the speck in your brother's eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye?"

[V4Vendetta]

Christians for Ron Paul

[Dustancostine]

If science is only a method of understanding, what is religion? A method of explanation without any understanding?

[SouthernGuy15]

EVERYONE sins. Even you. So before you feel the need to condemn others for their sin, why don't you work on stopping your own?

"And why do you look at the speck in your brother's eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye?"

Quite frankly, if I see sin I am going to speak up and say it is sin.

I fully admit that I am a sinner. I'm not perfect. I need to work on my sin too. I fully admit that.

But I'm not about to stand by and be silent about sin!

[Dustancostine]

I am NOT God. But God tells us IN THE BIBLE what is right and what is wrong.

Homosexuality is a SIN and an ABOMINATION!

That is the good thing about the Bible. It tells us what is a sin and what is not a sin. We are not judging anyone.

The Bible tells you what a sin is to guide your own life, not to force others/judge others.

If the Bible says homosexuality is a sin, then that is for you to guide your life, not for you to judge others actions.

[fj45lvr]

If science is only a method of understanding, what is religion? A method of explanation without any understanding?

I guess to you religion may be that.

I would suggest that like anything one eventually "figures out" that there for some is a time when they finally "get it" and not until that time do they "understand".

[SouthernGuy15]

The Bible tells you what a sin is to guide your own life, not to force others/judge others.

If the Bible says homosexuality is a sin, then that is for you to guide your life, not for you to judge others actions.

The Bible does say homosexuality is a sin.

It is our duty to speak up when we see sin.

I will judge other's actions. However, I realize everyone has the right to live their life how they see fit.

That is why I am a libertarian.

[LibertyEagle]

Quite frankly, if I see sin I am going to speak up and say it is sin.

I fully admit that I am a sinner. I'm not perfect. I need to work on my sin too. I fully admit that.

But I'm not about to stand by and be silent about sin!

I really don't see what you don't understand about this.

-----------------

Or how can you say to your brother, "Let me remove the speck from your eye'; and look, a plank is in your own eye?

"Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye," Jesus says in Matthew 7:1-5.

Not only do these verses strongly command us not judge our brothers and sisters, they also contain a strong warning: If we do judge, the same judgment we hand out will come back upon us.

I have heard it said that Christians shouldn't judge, but that we must be fruit inspectors. If we do detect bad spiritual fruit in others' lives, there is only one thing we should do about it.

Pray for that person, with the full knowledge that what we find to be critical about in another person is often the hidden sin in our own lives that we refuse to confront. I believe that is what Jesus is telling us about the plank blocking our own vision when we complain about the speck we see in our brother's eye.

http://www.johnmyers.com/bible42.html

[LibertyEagle]

The Bible does say homosexuality is a sin.

It is our duty to speak up when we see sin.

I will judge other's actions. However, I realize everyone has the right to live their life how they see fit.

That is why I am a libertarian.

It is not up to you to "judge" another's actions. It is up to God. So, if you want to judge others, do not do it in the name of the Lord. Because he has clearly told you what he thinks about this.

[SouthernGuy15]

Liberty Eagle,

You are VERY confused. We should always speak up about sin. Should we run up to a sinning person and scream at them that they are going strait to hell? No! But we should ALWAYS speak up about sin!

[SouthernGuy15]

It is up to me to speak up when I see sin. I am not judging others. The Bible has already judged what is sin!

HOMOSEXUALITY IS A SIN, PERIOD! END OF STORY!

[LibertyEagle]

It is up to me to speak up when I see sin. I am not judging others. The Bible has already judged what is sin!

HOMOSEXUALITY IS A SIN, PERIOD! END OF STORY!

I cited a bible passage for you. How can you misconstrue what Jesus told us?

[thomj76]

And breathe....

Be respectful, thoughtful and balanced.

John 8:7

Check it out...

[Dustancostine]

The Bible does say homosexuality is a sin.

It is our duty to speak up when we see sin.

I will judge other's actions. However, I realize everyone has the right to live their life how they see fit.

That is why I am a libertarian.

Please tell me where it says in the New Testament to "speak up when you see sin"? I have read it three times and don't remember that part (it may be there I just don't remember it), It does say to witness, but that is different from speaking up against sin.

[Dustancostine]

I guess to you religion may be that.

I would suggest that like anything one eventually "figures out" that there for some is a time when they finally "get it" and not until that time do they "understand".

No it is not that to me. That is what it logically is.

[LibertyEagle]

It is up to me to speak up when I see sin. I am not judging others. The Bible has already judged what is sin!

HOMOSEXUALITY IS A SIN, PERIOD! END OF STORY!

Oh yes you are. You are judging others. Don't delude yourself.

You speak of the Bible, but Jesus told us to clean up our own acts, before we started slinging arrows at someone else for their sins. You seem to be conveniently overlooking those directions.

[SwooshOU]

The Scriptures are all about balance and context.

[fj45lvr]

It is up to me to speak up when I see sin. I am not judging others. The Bible has already judged what is sin!

HOMOSEXUALITY IS A SIN, PERIOD! END OF STORY!

One thing I want to point out in your exclaimation, that one could be "homosexual" and not actually act out those desires...just as anyone has desires and chooses whether to act on them/initiate something. in the human condition people are drawn to different weaknesses all the time but they don't have to succumb to those desires.

Big difference there.

[SouthernGuy15]

You are twisting it all around.

If I see someone doing something that the Bible does not specify as a sin I am not going to say they are sinning or not. For example, some people thinking eating out at a restaurant on Sunday is a sin. But the Bible does not say it is a sin specifically. I would keep my mouth shut if I saw someone eating out on a Sunday. I would also hope that people would keep their mouth shut if they see me eating out on a Sunday because I don't think it is a sin.

However, if I see that someone is sinning I should speak up. For example, if someone is having sex before marriage. I should do so in the nicest most polite way possible, but I should speak up!

It is NOT judging someone to speak up about sin that is already specified as sin in the Bible!

Let me get this through to you...

THE BIBLE HAS ALREADY SAID CERTAIN THINGS ARE A SIN!

IF PEOPLE DO THOSE CERTAIN SPECIFIC THINGS THEY ARE SINNING!

WE SHOULD SPEAK UP ABOUT THOSE THINGS!

We are not judging, because the Bible judged those things already!

[DrNoZone]

Please, aren't there religious forums you all can take this silliness to? I mean seriously, we have work to do for Ron Paul here.

[SouthernGuy15]

Oh yes you are. You are judging others. Don't delude yourself.

You speak of the Bible, but Jesus told us to clean up our own acts, before we started slinging arrows at someone else for their sins. You seem to be conveniently overlooking those directions.

No. I am not judging others. The Bible specifically says certain things are sin. If I state the TRUTH that what someone is doing is a sin then I am only confirming my belief in the Bible!

[SouthernGuy15]

Please, aren't there religious forums you all can take this silliness to? I mean seriously, we have work to do for Ron Paul here.

I'm not going to back down. If you don't like this thread too freaking bad.

[LibertyEagle]

You are full of it, SouthernGuy, and a major reason why so many people are turned away from Christ. I wonder how God will judge YOU.

[Revolution9]

You are twisting it all around.

If I see someone doing something that the Bible does not specify as a sin I am not going to say they are sinning or not. For example, some people thinking eating out at a restaurant on Sunday is a sin. But the Bible does not say it is a sin specifically. I would keep my mouth shut if I saw someone eating out on a Sunday. I would also hope that people would keep their mouth shut if they see me eating out on a Sunday because I don't think it is a sin.

However, if I see that someone is sinning I should speak up. For example, if someone is having sex before marriage. I should do so in the nicest most polite way possible, but I should speak up!

It is NOT judging someone to speak up about sin that is already specified as sin in the Bible!

Let me get this through to you...

THE BIBLE HAS ALREADY SAID CERTAIN THINGS ARE A SIN!

IF PEOPLE DO THOSE CERTAIN SPECIFIC THINGS THEY ARE SINNING!

WE SHOULD SPEAK UP ABOUT THOSE THINGS!

We are not judging, because the Bible judged those things already!

Which Bible?. The Scofield? The King James Version? The Official Celtic Bible of the Church of St Cilumbine, which is the true ecclesiastical seat of England, The Gnostic Bible or ??. As well as an Altar Boy I was taught by my elders to ignore the Old Testament as Jesus came to abrogate that law as it was the talmudic Laws of Mercantilism and not the organic Laws of Creation. I see that many problems in the US Christain Sects are from adhering to the Old Testament and not to the New Law as described by Jesus The Chriist.

Best
Randy

[DrNoZone]

I'm not going to back down. If you don't like this thread too freaking bad.

Yeah, figures...rabid Christian alert! He's like a pitbull, once he latches on it'll take the Jaws Of Life to pry him off.

[SouthernGuy15]

I'm honored you are offended. It means I've been speaking the truth.

[LibertyEagle]

No. You are holier-than-thou and by doing so are sinning, yourself. The plank is growing into a tree.

[SouthernGuy15]

Liberty Eagle,

By the way, I'm not offended if you think I'm sinning. The problem is there are too many people that are offended by other people's opinions.

I'm proud to be a conservative Christian and a libertarian!

[DrNoZone]

I'm honored you are offended. It means I've been speaking the truth.

I don't know who you were speaking to, but if it was me, you're wrong. So you can wipe that self-righteous smirk off your face. I'm not offended by silliness and childish people who want to force feed their narrow minded dogma down everyone's throat. I just think it's sad, really.

[LibertyEagle]

Yeah, figures...rabid Christian alert! He's like a pitbull, once he latches on it'll take the Jaws Of Life to pry him off.

Don't confuse what he is doing with Christianity.

"Or how can you say to your brother, "Let me remove the speck from your eye'; and look, a plank is in your own eye?

"Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye," Matthew 7:1-5.

[Dustancostine]

You are twisting it all around.

If I see someone doing something that the Bible does not specify as a sin I am not going to say they are sinning or not. For example, some people thinking eating out at a restaurant on Sunday is a sin. But the Bible does not say it is a sin specifically. I would keep my mouth shut if I saw someone eating out on a Sunday. I would also hope that people would keep their mouth shut if they see me eating out on a Sunday because I don't think it is a sin.

However, if I see that someone is sinning I should speak up. For example, if someone is having sex before marriage. I should do so in the nicest most polite way possible, but I should speak up!

It is NOT judging someone to speak up about sin that is already specified as sin in the Bible!

Let me get this through to you...

THE BIBLE HAS ALREADY SAID CERTAIN THINGS ARE A SIN!

IF PEOPLE DO THOSE CERTAIN SPECIFIC THINGS THEY ARE SINNING!

WE SHOULD SPEAK UP ABOUT THOSE THINGS!

We are not judging, because the Bible judged those things already!

Since apparently you do not know what to judge means:

http://www.spellcheck.com/dictionary/judge

1: to form an opinion about through careful weighing of evidence and testing of premises
3: to determine or pronounce after inquiry and deliberation
5: to form an estimate or evaluation of; especially : to form a negative opinion about

You are clearly doing 2 and probably 1, and 5 as well.

I am an atheist but I even know that you are incorrect.

Look at the quotes that Liberty Eagle posted and consider them and what they mean. Jesus says you shouldn't judge because you are imperfect, He also says that your should witness your faith to others. If you feel that someone is not being righteous then witness your faith to them instead of judging their actions. Teach them the whole Bible/the word of Christ then let them make their own decisions about their life in the context of what you have taught them. The Bible says that humans have free will and will be judged by Christ on Judgement day. By teaching them your faith you have given them the tools to live their life and have a favorable judgement in the end, but it is not for you to judge in this lifetime.

--Dustan

P.S. It is kind of like campaigning for RP, it is not useful to tell someone they are wrong to support the war, rather it is better for you to introduce them to the speeches and writing of RP and once they understand the total principles and political philosophy of RP only then they can see that the war is wrong.

[thomj76]

And breathe....

Be respectful, thoughtful and balanced.

John 8:7

Check it out...

I'm going to repost this because it got relegated to the bottom 2 pages back.

PS: Isn't there supposed to be a new covenant for Christians?

Mark 12:28-31

Get you some.

[fj45lvr]

No it is not that to me. That is what it logically is.

Why don't you logically tell us all about Love, hope, faith then....there is so much that defies human understanding as we know it now....but when there is a discovery what was formerly "dark" becomes "light". it is only natural that men want to be shown "proof"....however the creation itself is proof enough in all its vastness, complexity, beauty, and Intricacies....I think it is quite logical to state that if you believe that all this came to be from ??? that would be equal to faith in the unseen, is it not???

[Van Damme]

I am a Christian, I have been my entire life. However, I will continue to make fun of those prominent people on the "religious right" who hate gay people, black people, and people that get abortions. After the values voters debate I was ashamed to be a Christian. They brought a "former" homosexual to ask a question and an abortion survivor. It was despicable and I will continue to poke fun at their bigotry.

[LibertyEagle]

Liberty Eagle,

By the way, I'm not offended if you think I'm sinning. The problem is there are too many people that are offended by other people's opinions.

I'm proud to be a conservative Christian and a libertarian!

Your "opinions" are fine. What irritates me is that you seem to think you are doing it in the name of the Lord, and that, you are not doing. It is these types of things that turn so many away from Christ.

[thomj76]

Instead of being concerned about who may be coming out of the closet, perhaps we should consider the merits of Mathew 6:6, and get in the closet...

[DrNoZone]

Don't confuse what he is doing with Christianity.

"Or how can you say to your brother, "Let me remove the speck from your eye'; and look, a plank is in your own eye?

"Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye," Matthew 7:1-5.

Oh, I'm not. I specifically said he was a "rabid" Christian.

[SouthernGuy15]

I'm stating the truth! The truth does turn some people away from Christ, but it also convicts them of their sin so they can come to Christ!

If someone is sinning you should witness to them and point out their sin. You are not judging them because the Bible has already judged their sin!

By the way, do you know what they did in Biblical times to those individuals who were caught in the act of adultery and so fourth? They were stoned to death! I'm not speaking about issuing punishment, being hateful to anyone, or being rude!

I'm talking about simply telling someone you care about them, witnessing to them, and telling them that what they are doing is a sin according to the Bible!

By the way, whenever I witness to someone probably the second or third thing I say is that I'm a sinner and that we are all sinners!

If someone doesn't know what they are guilty of then they don't know why they should ask forgiveness!

[LibertyEagle]

I think this is great.

Matthew 6:1-8

1"Be careful not to do your 'acts of righteousness' before men, to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven.

2"So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. 3But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, 4so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

5"And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. 6But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. 7And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. 8Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.

[Dustancostine]

Why don't you logically tell us all about Love, hope, faith then....there is so much that defies human understanding as we know it now....but when there is a discovery what was formerly "dark" becomes "light". it is only natural that men want to be shown "proof"....however the creation itself is proof enough in all its vastness, complexity, beauty, and Intricacies....I think it is quite logical to state that if you believe that all this came to be from ??? that would be equal to faith in the unseen, is it not???

If you want logical explanations of love and hope, go to your local Barnes and Noble, go to the psychology section and purchase a book. They will be explained to you if you want an logical explanation. Faith is belief without evidence, it is desire in conflict with known reality.

I am not saying everything is currently known or necessarily will be known, but the idea of the supernatural to explain the unknown is absurd.

As far as creation being proof, there is no "creation". There is just changing reality. Things have always existed and always will in one form or another they continue to change. Because human life is limited we have these built in ideas of a beginning and an ending, but as far as realty goes, existence exist. The is no start there is no end. Time does not exist it is just a measure of change.

--Dustan

[c0unterph0bia]

This is why Christianity is all too often mocked. Not even Christians can agree on what they are supposed to believe (as seen above). How can we cater to Christians, when they all believe something different? Your religion has over 20,000 denominations!

I am sorry that people have been turned off to Ron Paul because of religious differences on these boards, but you have to remember that there are hundreds of thousands of hardcore Ron Paul supporters, all of which think that their religion or belief is correct. Your going to have Christians, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Ethnoreligionists, Neoreligionists, Sikhs, Jews, all sorts of different religions and different belief systems come on to these boards, and we can't try to cater to all of them without upsetting someone else. In fact, Christians often offend me on these boards, and my reaction is to turn the other cheek. I'm not going to make a new post about it, I'm going to just get over it.

This board is not to decide which one of the 40,000 religions that have existed is the right one, but to inspire the hard core Ron Paul supporter. The "Religious Right" and "Christian Demographic" is a good place to find new Ron Paul supporters, and I am sorry if it looks like we are targeting them, but we basically are. Ron Paul is an Evangelical Christian himself!

You have to have religious tolerance here or you will only make enemies. You have to be strong minded, or the things people type will eat you apart. Such is the nature of the internet. I suggest that everyone realize that your own religion is not the only one in which miracles can be seen, and God can be felt. You will find that in nearly every religion there is someone who will describe the exact same feelings and experiences. This is a time when we need to be extremely tolerent, and work towards the goal of getting Ron Paul elected.

I suggest we end this thread now, and start showing our tolerance.

[fj45lvr]

I am not saying everything is currently known or necessarily will be known, but the idea of the supernatural to explain the unknown is absurd.

As far as creation being proof, there is no "creation". There is just changing reality. Things have always existed and always will in one form or another they continue to change. Because human life is limited with have this built in ideas of a beginning and an ending, but as far as realty goes, existence exist. The is no start there is no end. Time does not exist it is just a measure of change.

--Dustan

Thanks for sharing your FAITH with us there Dustan. Your belief in the unknown and as you admit it is entirely the "unknown".

Every person chooses where they place their faith...and all people have it.

[SouthernGuy15]

I am a Libertarian. I am tolerant of all religions. I just refuse to agree with them.

Also, unlike many Christians I believe others have a right to speak out against my religion.

I would FIGHT for the right of someone to have an art exhibit where a cross is dipped in feces! I would BOLDLY oppose what they are doing and say it is a horrible thing, but I would FIGHT for their right to do so!

I would be tolerant of a religion that believes in lesbian sex and wants to every Thursday rent out a hotel for a giant orgy. I may not agree with it and I would speak out against it, but I would fight to support their right to do so!

[austin356]

Thanks OP, I concur.

[thomj76]

I'm going to repost this because it got relegated to the bottom 2 pages back.

PS: Isn't there supposed to be a new covenant for Christians?

Mark 12:28-31

Get you some.


Instead of being concerned about who may be coming out of the closet, perhaps we should consider the merits of Mathew 6:6, and get in the closet...

I am now going with the repetition increases the chances of the message being heard approach...

So for those that are keeping track, its:

John 8:7
Mark 12:28-31
Mathew 6:6

...and I'll throw in a Luke 17:21 for good measure...

[SouthernGuy15]

The fact is there can only be one true religion because there can only be one God.

I respect the right of other religions to believe that their way is the only way to God.

They should respect my right to believe that my way is the only way to God.

[damijin]

I don't mean to stir the already overflowing pot but...

SouthernGuy, I'm asking this as a fellow human, just for a favor.

I don't want to be saved, and I don't particularly care if I sin. That is MY problem, it is MY life. We are libertarians because we believe in the power and responsibility of the individual.

So if you see me bangin' 3 unwed teenagers while I'm taking it from behind by a biker guy in assless chaps and lighting up a big old bowl of green -- rest assured that I'm aware of the fact that I'm completely aware of the implications of my actions, and let me be.

Thx :)

[LibertyEagle]

The fact is there can only be one true religion because there can only be one God.

I respect the right of other religions to believe that their way is the only way to God.

They should respect my right to believe that my way is the only way to God.




Yes, now could YOU go back in the closet and stop attempting to cram your views upon everyone else?

[SouthernGuy15]

Absolutely not. I'm not forcing anyone to believe like me. People are giving their opinions and I'm giving mine. This is an open forum and anyone can post their views.

[Dustancostine]

Thanks for sharing your FAITH with us there Dustan. Your belief in the unknown and as you admit it is entirely the "unknown".

Every person chooses where they place their faith...and all people have it.

Explain yourself. I never said I have faith in the unknown. I didn't claim anything about it. I claimed that having faith without evidence is ridiculous.

BTW: If you are saying that my last comment was what you were referring to as my faith, then you are incorrect. Everything in that last paragraph is based on the evidence of reality and deduced by logic.

[SouthernGuy15]

I don't mean to stir the already overflowing pot but...

SouthernGuy, I'm asking this as a fellow human, just for a favor.

I don't want to be saved, and I don't particularly care if I sin. That is MY problem, it is MY life. We are libertarians because we believe in the power and responsibility of the individual.

So if you see me bangin' 3 unwed teenagers while I'm taking it from behind by a biker guy in assless chaps and lighting up a big old bowl of green -- rest assured that I'm aware of the fact that I'm completely aware of the implications of my actions, and let me be.

Thx :)

You would have the right to do all of that.

[barcop]

This thread has reminded me why I stay FAR FAR away from the church.

(accept for the OP whos good intentions for the Ron Paul campaign have been ruined by other Chistians)

[cjhowe]

In any event, back to the OP


Before I start here, let me qualify myself. I am 40 years old. I have been a follower of Dr. Paul for at least a dozen years. I am a lifelong Republican, an Evangelical Protestant, and I am an associate pastor of a new church plant in Central PA.

I have become concerned with the discussions on this site regarding Christian voters and the “Religious Right”. Some of you who are not Christian have a tendency to mock Christian beliefs and practices and/or lump all Christians into some single-minded group. The tone of these comments at many times is rude and not helpful for the growth of the Ron Paul voting base - at times comments that have been made are downright offensive. It is to the point, where I would not want to recommend to a new Ron Paul supporter to come to this site for fear someone here might offend their beliefs.

Survey data varies of course, but the general consensus is that 75% of Americans define themselves as Christians; 20% of Americans define themselves as Evangelicals; and 70% of Evangelicals vote Republican. Thus, a sizeable percentage of the people we need to support Dr. Paul define themselves as Christians.

Finally, I will remind you all that Dr. Paul is an Evangelical Christian. So when you mock the beliefs of Christians as a group, you are mocking our candidate of choice as well.

Please let us keep the tone in here civil so that we do not do anything to offend potential supporters or give our detractors another reason to paint us in a bad light.

There is a reason why there is Christian bashing in a RP forum and it's not the fault of Christians. Many agnostics and atheists are drawn towards the constitutional message. Many view this as our social contract and the limitations that our neighbor can impose his religious views on us. That said, there seems to be a bit of a maturation process when identifying as agnostic or atheist. It basically goes something like this. Doubt -> Study -> Indignant -> Indifference. The internet plays a strange part in this. It lumps the people in the study phase with those in the indignation phase. They get more positive feedback in their views, they stay in each phase longer, and they get more vicious because of it and a bit trollish. With all trollish behaviour, try not to feed it. You're not going to ever win the argument, neither are they and the A/a will simply become more fervent in his belief.

[damijin]

You would have the right to do all of that.

Yeah, I get that I have the right. I'm just saying, theres no reason to speak up about my sin or about anyone's sin.

People know they're sinning, and if they don't... who cares? Some people aren't down with the good book, so why bother telling them what it says? Let them find their own way through life, as individuals.

[LibertyEagle]

Will the moderator please move this thread?

[angelatc]

But I'm not about to stand by and be silent about sin!

Why not? Unless you're talking to your congregation or your kids.

Some people think it is a sin, some people say that it is not. The issue is far from settled even in the Christian ranks. If you think it's a sin, then just know in your heart that those people are sinners, and pray for them. It's not hard to just let other people live in peace if you try.

[allyinoh]

This thread has reminded me why I stay FAR FAR away from the church.

(accept for the OP whos good intentions for the Ron Paul campaign have been ruined by other Chistians)

I was JUST thinking the same thing after reading 5 pages of arguments.

I think people who don't know shouldn't talk and people who do know should understand that there are people who don't know. (if that makes any sense)

The one thing that remains is a sin is a sin is a sin and all sins are equal in God's eyes. Period.

But really, the whole point of this thread IMO was to say that people should not bash , make fun of, mock, etc Christianity because most American's call themselves Christians and Ron Paul is a Christian as well!

[SouthernGuy15]

No, this is a perfectly fine thread. It should not be removed. If it is removed I hope the moderator will ban me, because I would never want to participate on this forum again.

[Dustancostine]

nm wrong quote..

[LibertyEagle]

No, this is a perfectly fine thread. It should not be removed. If it is removed I hope the moderator will ban me, because I would never want to participate on this forum again.

I did not say REMOVE. I said MOVE. Surely, you know the difference.

[SouthernGuy15]

I'm going to bring up another issue.

We REALLY need to reach out to the Christian community with the message of liberty.

[fj45lvr]

Explain yourself. I never said I have faith in the unknown. I didn't claim anything about it. I claimed that having faith without evidence is ridiculous.

BTW: If you are saying that my last comment was what you were referring to as my faith, then you are incorrect. Everything in that last paragraph is based on the evidence of reality and deduced by logic.

BINGO....you knew it already

Yes you "believe" something about that which you do not know based on absolutely nothing. Don't try to tell me that is not faith...I have to tell you it is much more difficult to "believe" that this planet in this solar system in this universe in who knows what else is the result of an explosion or whatever theory than it is to believe it is the result of a creator. Which takes greater faith?? depends on who you are I guess.

[thomj76]

I am still going with the repetition increases the chances of the message being heard approach...

So for those that are keeping track, its:


Mathew 6:6
Mark 12:28-31
Luke 17:21
John 8:7

[Dustancostine]

In any event, back to the OP



There is a reason why there is Christian bashing in a RP forum and it's not the fault of Christians. Many agnostics and atheists are drawn towards the constitutional message. Many view this as our social contract and the limitations that our neighbor can impose his religious views on us. That said, there seems to be a bit of a maturation process when identifying as agnostic or atheist. It basically goes something like this. Doubt -> Study -> Indignant -> Indifference. The internet plays a strange part in this. It lumps the people in the study phase with those in the indignation phase. They get more positive feedback in their views, they stay in each phase longer, and they get more vicious because of it and a bit trollish. With all trollish behaviour, try not to feed it. You're not going to ever win the argument, neither are they and the A/a will simply become more fervent in his belief.

I think indignant is a bad word choice. Most Atheist are not angry or vicious.

And to say there is a lot of Christian bashing here is a load of crap. While there maybe some, all of it stems out of a debate, meaning there is someone on the other side of that debate. You don't see the atheist on this board complaining that there is atheist bashing from the Christians do you?

This forum has many people coming from many different ideologies (politically, culturally, philosophically) so there is going to be a lot of discussions. If you cannot handle discussions then this forums is not the place for.

[Dustancostine]

BINGO....you knew it already

Yes you "believe" something about that which you do not know based on absolutely nothing. Don't try to tell me that is not faith...I have to tell you it is much more difficult to "believe" that this planet in this solar system in this universe in who knows what else is the result of an explosion or whatever theory than it is to believe it is the result of a creator. Which takes greater faith?? depends on who you are I guess.

What do I know nothing about?

I didn't claim the big bang theory.

Apparently you cannot read. I said existence exist. Time is a measure of change. I did not claim anything about how existence came to "be" in the current state that it is. If you want to know about reality study it, don't make up a story.

I know this maybe hard to understand. But if you don't understand ask me for clarification, instead of putting words into my mouth and making things up.

[constituent]

First of all, welcome and thank you for your comments. I couldn't agree with you more.

It's only my opinion, but I would NOT send people here. Overall, this is a group of hardcore activists. It is not the place to send someone who is trying to get more information about Ron Paul, or is new to his campaign. I have admired Dr. Paul for more than 20 years and I almost ran out of here screaming many times, when I first joined.



Yes ma'am. Check the graphs if you don't believe her either. This is where the wild things are, the ten percenters. Check ronpaulforums.com traffic graph side by side w/ the ronpaul2008.com you'll see the way they track and trace...

unless you're a hardcore, ten percenter it is probably best to stay far away until you get there yourself (it is inevitable after all).

[cjhowe]

I think indignant is a bad word choice. Most Atheist are not angry or vicious.

And to say there is a lot of Christian bashing here is a load of crap. While there maybe some, all of it stems out of a debate, meaning there is someone on the other side of that debate. You don't see the atheist on this board complaining that there is atheist bashing from the Christians do you?

This forum has many people coming from many different ideologies (politically, culturally, philosophically) so there is going to be a lot of discussions. If you cannot handle discussions then this forums is not the place for.

I didn't say that most atheists would be indignant. Simply that indignation is part of the maturation of an A/a. Most atheists are indifferent.

Edit: lol...I should have waited for your next post to prove my point "Apparently you cannot read". Classic.

[Dustancostine]

Ok.

I know a lot of A/A's do come to doubt through anger, and this is really unfortunate.

I came to study this issue based on curiosity and a desire for truth. I have never been angry about it. It has actually been a very somber process.

Edit: I at least I admit I mistook your comment. :)

[Corydoras]

Most Atheist are not angry or vicious.

A lot of them do get catty enough to be offensive.

http://ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?p=292420#post292420

[Daveforliberty]

Thomas Jefferson was so adamant about religious freedom that he chose to include his contribution to it on his headstone:

“author of the Declaration of American Independence, of the Statute of Virginia for Religious Freedom, and Father of the University of Virginia”

Note that he thought little of his 8 years as President. The opening of the Virginia statue begins thus:

Well aware that Almighty God hath created the mind free; that all attempts to influence it by temporal punishments or burdens, or by civil incapacitations, tend only to beget habits of hypocrisy and meanness, and are a departure from the plan of the Holy Author of our religion, who being Lord both of body and mind, yet chose not to propagate it by coercions on either, as was in his Almighty power to do...

He compared attempts to coerce the human mind into one belief set or another to tyranny. At the same time, after being elected president he attended church services inside the House of Representatives. To many this may be contradictory, but it is not. It is an expression of his true belief in religious freedom.

Jefferson was reviled by the religious right of his day as being a sinner and an infidel. But it was a huge error. They confused his tolerance of other beliefs, or no beliefs, based on the concept that God had created man as a free being, with an endorsement of sin.

Likewise, I've seen atheists quote Jefferson many times in justification of their own attacks on religion. They count him in "their camp" in disparaging Christians. Jefferson would be appalled with such behavior, and based on his words above and in many other of his writings, he was a man of personal faith. But his public tolerance rained judgement upon him in his day, and misinterpretations of his faith in ours.

Ron Paul has also been, and will continue to be reviled for holding the identical principle. That he won't condemn homosexuals, Muslims or atheists creates furor among some of the Evangelical community. Of course, we know this does not mean that Ron Paul endorses homosexuality, thinks Islam is correct or is an unbeliever. His stance, as was Jefferson's, is actually more in line with the simple message of Christ than that of his revilers. I believe it does honor to God to give him the proper credit as the creator of free minds.

Over the years I have made the conscious decision this is my stance as well. I am a Christian, but you will never see me on this board belittling homosexuals, Muslims, or atheists. And it bothers me to see some on this board belittling Christians. If we really want to return to first principles, we should examine ourselves and weed out the sprouts of tyranny in our own minds.

We should not confuse the freedom of speech with a license to attack any religion, belief or group. Yes, you are free to do so, and I will not try to stop you. In fact, as someone has said, "I will defend to the death your right to do so." But it doesn't mean I agree with you or think your statements are well-advised.

I would like to see us all act more like Thomas Jefferson and Ron Paul and refrain from judging others for exercising their free minds. Imagine a country where no one was a target of coersion for their religious beliefs or lack of same. Imagine a government that wrote NO law either promoting OR hindering the free expression of religion.

The most remarkable thing about the Ron Paul Revoution is how it has brought people together. But unless we educate ourselves on liberty and become more like the candidate we have come together for, I fear that we will split into schisms again after the election. We must not let this happen. I want a country where I can offer my hand of friendship to the atheist and he can offer his to me. And through the expression of our beliefs in our daily lives allow others to exercise their own free minds on what is best for them.

[Dustancostine]

A lot of them do get catty enough to be offensive.

http://ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?p=292420#post292420

That is unfortunate.

[thomj76]

I am still going with the repetition increases the chances of the message being heard approach...

So for those that are keeping track, its:


Mathew 6:6
Mark 12:28-31
Luke 17:21
John 8:7

Another time for Good Sense:

Mathew 6:6- Enter your closet and pray to your father in silence and in secret.
Mark 12:28-31- The 2 greatest commandments by Jesus
Luke 17:21- The Kingdom of God is within you
John 8:7- Let he is without sin cast the first stone.

[tfelice]

Wow I go out for a couple of hours and this thread catches fire. I'll try and steer things back to the point I was making.

As a grassroots movement we are trying to get the largest amount of support for Ron Paul as possible. We need to make significant inroads in the Evangelical community in order to win the nomination. We can do so, since Paul is the only top tier candidate that is strongly pro-life. Therefore, the non-Christian supporters need to refrain from disparaging remarks about people of faith. Doing so only hurts our chances of dominating this sizable voting block.

[LibertyEagle]

Dustan,

I agree with you, but for someone just taking a look over here, they will likely be freaked out. I mean, think about it. Most people are used to talking to people who believe pretty much like they do. They tend to avoid people with very different views. Honestly, how many of us here on this board would have likely even had much of anything to do with one another, had it not been for Ron Paul? :)

It takes awhile for it to REALLY sink in, that the only way to insure our own individual liberty, is to allow others to have theirs too. Because if we are willing to use big government force to take away another person's liberty, who we do not agree with, that same big government can also be used to take away our own.

Ron Paul reminds us of this and I, for one, always benefit from every repetition of this message. His campaign has brought us all together in this moment in time. Because while we disagree on a variety of issues, we all seem to understand that the best answer is to reinstate the Constitution and ensure liberty for all.

[thomj76]

Wow I go out for a couple of hours and this thread catches fire. I'll try and steer things back to the point I was making.

As a grassroots movement we are trying to get the largest amount of support for Ron Paul as possible. We need to make significant inroads in the Evangelical community in order to win the nomination. We can do so, since Paul is the only top tier candidate that is strongly pro-life. Therefore, the non-Christian supporters need to refrain from disparaging remarks about people of faith. Doing so only hurts our chances of dominating this sizable voting block.

As a Southern Guy myself, being born in Houston and becoming aware of Ron Paul when I was 5 or 6 in the mid 70's (Not as strange when my mom is a US Government teacher for the last 35 years), it is critical to the health of this campaign to be respectful, thoughtful, balanced, and to follow through.

PS: This goes both ways for the non-Christian and the Christian as well...

Freedom isn't perfect; it requires a lot of work to maintain...

[Dustancostine]

Dustan,

I agree with you, but for someone just taking a look over here, they will likely be freaked out. I mean, think about it. Most people are used to talking to people who believe pretty much like they do. They tend to avoid people with very different views. Honestly, how many of us here on this board would have likely even had much of anything to do with one another, had it not been for Ron Paul? :)

It takes awhile for it to REALLY sink in, that the only way to insure our own individual liberty, is to allow others to have theirs too. Because if we are willing to use big government force to take away another person's liberty, who we do not agree with, that same big government can also be used to take away our own.

Ron Paul reminds us of this and I, for one, always benefit from every repetition of this message. His campaign has brought us all together in this moment in time. Because while we disagree on a variety of issues, we all seem to understand that the best answer is to reinstate the Constitution and ensure liberty for all.

I totally agree with you liberty.

Someone reading these forums needs to understand that there are two different types of discussions here. One is solely about RP and freedom, and the other is RP supporters demonstrating that freedom though exchange of ideas (which many have nothing to do with RP).

It is the latter which some might find offensive, hopefully they will understand there is a difference between the two.

--Dustan

[undergroundrr]

Some of you who are not Christian have a tendency to mock Christian beliefs and practices and/or lump all Christians into some single-minded group.

Non-theist here. The OP was inflammatory in its insinuations. One of the most amazing things about Dr. Paul is that both atheists and the more thoughtful branch of extremely evangelical theists can get behind his candidacy.

And the reason so many atheists are okay with this socially conservative Republican is because they don't find him evangelical at all relative to the kind of religious activism the AFA demands. He seemed to get a lukewarm response at the two Values Voters functions. I think they can sense that Dr. Paul would never take an irrational political action because a deity told him to - the very quality they seem most to admire about Bush. The consitutional implications of their intended zero-tolerance pre-emptive War on Sin are disturbing to any civil libertarian.

Since it was brought up - the generalization contained in the OP is too narrow. The perception of many non-theists is that the three Abrahamic religions (not just Christianity) are proliferating into an ever-larger number of factions of varying belligerence toward one another. The Christian vs. Christian stuff that dominates this thread demonstrates a particular microcosm of the problem eloquently.

Creating a thread for the sole purpose of shushing those who don't mesh with your religious views isn't productive to helping Dr. Paul win. It's just the action of a male cat marking its territory.

[tfelice]

Creating a thread for the sole purpose of shushing those who don't mesh with your religious views isn't productive to helping Dr. Paul win. It's just the action of a male cat marking its territory.

It's not a matter of shushing. It's a call for decorum. Many of the comments I have seen in other threads regarding Christians have been classless. You don't try to market a candidate to a group of people and at the same time mock their beliefs & practices.

[Revolution9]

Absolutely not. I'm not forcing anyone to believe like me. People are giving their opinions and I'm giving mine. This is an open forum and anyone can post their views.

Or their obfuscating paradoxically challenged bluster and pyroclastic fume all wrapped up in Old Testament wrath. We arec all sin waves. Without sin there is no thing.
I t taketh a thing to thinketh A Force.

You can now carry on with you abderitically charged, insipidly bibulous and disjointedly semi-coherent ranting pitting all manner of internal psychological forces and cognitive mechanisms against each other in a maelstrom of sulfur and brimstoning, dualistically corrupted momentum. They sure got you in a tither. But it don't mean yer hanging from no bkloody tree. IOW..put the avenging messiah back in yer pocket junior and learn what it means to link back. re-ligio.

Best
Randy

[Revolution9]

I am still going with the repetition increases the chances of the message being heard approach...

So for those that are keeping track, its:


Mathew 6:6
Mark 12:28-31
Luke 17:21
John 8:7

Don't forget ...
Lennon-McCartney- Fool On A Hill - 67

Besrt
Randy

[tfelice]

Don't forget ...
Lennon-McCartney- Fool On A Hill - 67


Exactly the type of comments I was referencing in my initial post. Show some class and respect for the faith that Dr. Paul and many of his supporters hold.

[Revolution9]

I'm going to bring up another issue.

We REALLY need to reach out to the Christian community with the message of liberty.

Yes. Denominations of it are sorely bereft of its true concepts. I agree. Seems freedom might be pushed along with the liberty message. Not sure from your previous bloviations whether you are paradigmically challenged by such notions or not.

Best
Randy

[axiomata]

Thomas Jefferson was so adamant about religious freedom that he chose to include his contribution to it on his headstone:

“author of the Declaration of American Independence, of the Statute of Virginia for Religious Freedom, and Father of the University of Virginia”

Note that he thought little of his 8 years as President. The opening of the Virginia statue begins thus:

Well aware that Almighty God hath created the mind free; that all attempts to influence it by temporal punishments or burdens, or by civil incapacitations, tend only to beget habits of hypocrisy and meanness, and are a departure from the plan of the Holy Author of our religion, who being Lord both of body and mind, yet chose not to propagate it by coercions on either, as was in his Almighty power to do...

He compared attempts to coerce the human mind into one belief set or another to tyranny. At the same time, after being elected president he attended church services inside the House of Representatives. To many this may be contradictory, but it is not. It is an expression of his true belief in religious freedom.

Jefferson was reviled by the religious right of his day as being a sinner and an infidel. But it was a huge error. They confused his tolerance of other beliefs, or no beliefs, based on the concept that God had created man as a free being, with an endorsement of sin.

Likewise, I've seen atheists quote Jefferson many times in justification of their own attacks on religion. They count him in "their camp" in disparaging Christians. Jefferson would be appalled with such behavior, and based on his words above and in many other of his writings, he was a man of personal faith. But his public tolerance rained judgement upon him in his day, and misinterpretations of his faith in ours.

Ron Paul has also been, and will continue to be reviled for holding the identical principle. That he won't condemn homosexuals, Muslims or atheists creates furor among some of the Evangelical community. Of course, we know this does not mean that Ron Paul endorses homosexuality, thinks Islam is correct or is an unbeliever. His stance, as was Jefferson's, is actually more in line with the simple message of Christ than that of his revilers. I believe it does honor to God to give him the proper credit as the creator of free minds.

Over the years I have made the conscious decision this is my stance as well. I am a Christian, but you will never see me on this board belittling homosexuals, Muslims, or atheists. And it bothers me to see some on this board belittling Christians. If we really want to return to first principles, we should examine ourselves and weed out the sprouts of tyranny in our own minds.

We should not confuse the freedom of speech with a license to attack any religion, belief or group. Yes, you are free to do so, and I will not try to stop you. In fact, as someone has said, "I will defend to the death your right to do so." But it doesn't mean I agree with you or think your statements are well-advised.

I would like to see us all act more like Thomas Jefferson and Ron Paul and refrain from judging others for exercising their free minds. Imagine a country where no one was a target of coersion for their religious beliefs or lack of same. Imagine a government that wrote NO law either promoting OR hindering the free expression of religion.

The most remarkable thing about the Ron Paul Revoution is how it has brought people together. But unless we educate ourselves on liberty and become more like the candidate we have come together for, I fear that we will split into schisms again after the election. We must not let this happen. I want a country where I can offer my hand of friendship to the atheist and he can offer his to me. And through the expression of our beliefs in our daily lives allow others to exercise their own free minds on what is best for them.

I vote that every post in this thread be replaced with this. Great post!