PDA

View Full Version : Barack Obama: We Must Embrace Globalism And The Emerging One World Economy




lynnf
11-10-2010, 01:55 PM
velcome to ze new vahld awdah




http://theeconomiccollapseblog.com/archives/barack-obama-we-must-embrace-globalism-and-the-emerging-one-world-economy

Although it received very little coverage in the mainstream media, Barack Obama made some comments about globalism during his speech in Mumbai, India that were very eye-opening. As he was discussing the new realities of world trade in 2010, Obama warned against "those who see globalization as a threat" and he spoke of the "integrated world" in which we all now live. But is merging the entire globe into a one world economy, a one world financial system and a one world labor market really the best thing for the American people?

For the past two decades, all U.S. presidents have been heralding the benefits of merging the American economy with the rest of the globe. George Bush Sr., Bill Clinton, George W. Bush and Barack Obama have all steadfastly supported the emerging one world economy. These presidents have each used different terms to describe this process such as "globalism", "globalization", "an integrated world", "the global economy" and even "a New World Order", but they have all meant the same thing. All of these presidents have sought to integrate the United States even more deeply into the developing one world economic system.

Barack Obama showed very clearly how he feels about globalism when he made the following statement during his speech in Mumbai....

"This will keep America on its toes. America is going to have to compete. There is going to be a tug-of-war within the US between those who see globalization as a threat and those who accept we live in a open integrated world, which has challenges and opportunities."

This is something that Barack Obama has obviously thought quite a bit about. In fact, during the same speech he warned that those supporting globalization will need to "guard against" those who would seek to put up barriers to the full integration of the economies of the world....

"If the American people feel that trade is just a one-way street where everybody is selling to the enormous US market but we can never sell what we make anywhere else, then the people of the US will start thinking that this is a bad deal for us and it could end up leading to a more protectionist instinct in both parties, not just among Democrats but also Republicans. So, that we have to guard against."

But in this new "global economy", aren't jobs leaving the United States and heading to developing nations at a blinding pace? Of course, but apparently we are just supposed to shut up and accept this new reality. In fact, Obama says that persistently high unemployment is "a new normal" that we are all just going to have to get used to.

Virtually all of the proponents of globalism understand that the process of merging the United States into a one world economy will be at least somewhat painful for the American people. Our wages are going to have to go down and our standards of living are going to have to fall, according to them.

During this period of "adjustment", a "struggling economy" is just going to have to be tolerated. In fact, Obama says that the U.S. economy might not be "fixed" for quite some time. Obama now claims that there is a limit to what the U.S. government can do to help the economy....

"Especially an economy this big, there are limited tools to encourage the kind of job growth that we need."

But couldn't Obama and the U.S. Congress pass laws that would discourage the offshoring and outsourcing of our jobs?

Of course.

Couldn't they cut regulations and taxes and encourage firms to keep factories in the United States?

Of course.

But instead, Obama and the U.S. Congress have just been piling on more taxes and more regulations and have made the business environment in the U.S. so toxic that it is amazing that anyone is willing to stay in this country at this point.

Meanwhile, every single month more of our jobs, more of our factories and more of our wealth gets shipped overseas never to return.

Every day there is more depressing news about the U.S. economy. For example, it has just been announced that Harley-Davidson has decided to open a shiny new assembly plant in India. Meanwhile, formerly great American manufacturing cities such as Detroit have turned into rotting hellholes.

The American people are not being told the truth. The following are 20 reasons why Barack Obama is wrong, wrong, wrong about globalization....

#1 American workers are being merged into a global labor pool where they must directly compete for jobs with workers on the other side of the globe that make less than ten percent of what an average American worker makes. In such an environment, it is inevitable that jobs are going to flow away from areas where labor is expensive and to areas where labor is cheaper.

#2 Globalization has caused the U.S. trade deficit to absolutely explode. In 1985, the U.S. trade deficit with China was 6 million dollars for the entire year. In the month of August alone, the U.S. trade deficit with China was over 28 billion dollars.

#3 Today, the United States spends approximately $3.90 on Chinese goods for every $1 that China spends on goods from the United States. This represents a massive transfer of wealth from the American people to China.

#4 According to a new study conducted by the Economic Policy Institute, if the U.S. trade deficit with China continues to increase at its current rate, the U.S. economy will lose over half a million jobs this year alone.

#5 The United States has lost approximately 42,400 factories since 2001.

#6 The United States has lost a staggering 32 percent of its manufacturing jobs since the year 2000.

#7 Even high technology industries are leaving America. Manufacturing employment in the U.S. computer industry is actually lower in 2010 than it was in 1975.

#8 In 1959, manufacturing represented 28 percent of all U.S. economic output. In 2008, it represented only 11.5 percent.

#9 As of the end of 2009, less than 12 million Americans worked in manufacturing. The last time that less than 12 million Americans were employed in manufacturing was in 1941.

#10 With so much manufacturing leaving the United States, is it any wonder why people can't find jobs? The "official" unemployment rate in the United States has been at nine and a half percent or above for 14 consecutive months.

#11 Today, there are at least 1.5 million "99ers" - those Americans that have completely exhausted all 99 weeks of unemployment benefits and that still do not have jobs.

#12 Our dependence on foreign oil also represents an absolutely shocking transfer of wealth from the American people to the oil exporters of the Middle East. Back in 1980, the United States imported approximately 37 percent of the oil that we use. Now we import nearly 60 percent of the oil that we use.

#13 Energy imports account for about approximately one-fourth of the U.S. trade deficit.

#14 In states such as Mississippi, people spend approximately 6.35 percent of their incomes just on gasoline, according to a recent report by the National Resources Defense Council.

#15 Americans end up paying to support American workers one way or another. Either they buy American-made products and services that provide jobs for American workers, or they pay to support unemployed American workers on welfare. Today, over 42 million Americans are on food stamps. A record number of Americans are receiving long-term unemployment benefits. One way or another, Americans are going to pay to take care of American workers.

#16 The U.S. trade deficit is running about 40 or 50 billion dollars a month in 2010. The United States spends 40 to 50 billion more on goods and services from the rest of the world each month than they spend on goods and services from us. That means that by the end of the year, approximately half a trillion dollars (or more) of our wealth will have left the United States for good.

#17 All of this wealth leaving the United States is having a huge impact on the standard of living of average Americans. Ten years ago, the United States was ranked number one in average wealth per adult. In 2010, the United States has fallen to seventh.

#18 It is now just a matter of time until India is going to pass us as an economic power. In fact, the economy of India is projected to become larger than the U.S. economy by the year 2050.

#19 It is now being projected that China will soon dwarf us as an economic power. One prominent economist now says that the Chinese economy will be three times larger than the U.S. economy by the year 2040. According to one recent study, China could become the global leader in patent filings by next year.

#20 China has been accumulating a gigantic mountain of dollars from all of the wealth we have been sending them each month, and they have been lending massive amounts of money back to us. Over the past few decades, the communist Chinese have been able to accumulate approximately $2.5 trillion in foreign currency reserves, and the U.S. government now owes them close to 900 billion dollars. We constantly have to send top government officials over there to beg them to continue to lend us money. This is a direct threat not only to our financial system, but also to our national security.

So, in light of all of those facts, can anyone out there possibly defend Barack Obama's position that globalization is good and that we should be happy that we are being merged into a one world economy?

Sadly, there are very, very few politicians in either major political party that will even talk about the negative effects of the emerging one world economy. It is almost as if there is an unspoken consensus that globalism is the future and that it is a good thing for America.

But it is not a good thing for America. Unless fundamental changes are made, America will continue to bleed wealth, will continue to bleed factories and will continue to bleed jobs.

The American people need to wake up and starting saying "NO" to globalization. If we continue to vote for politicians that support merging our economy with economies that allow workers to be paid slave labor wages, then we are going to see even more waves of horrific unemployment and we will continue to see the standard of living of middle class Americans diminish.

This is not a drill. America is being deindustrialized. The greatest economic machine in the history of the world is being dismantled.

Eventually, all of our cities are going to end up looking just like Detroit if we allow this to continue.

Is that what you want?

sevin
11-10-2010, 02:10 PM
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2008/05/21/books/obama-reads-533.jpg

devil21
11-10-2010, 02:12 PM
"If the American people feel that trade is just a one-way street where everybody is selling to the enormous US market but we can never sell what we make anywhere else, then the people of the US will start thinking that this is a bad deal for us and it could end up leading to a more protectionist instinct in both parties, not just among Democrats but also Republicans. So, that we have to guard against."


That's quite a fine strawman, Mr. President.

He's suggesting we give up our sovereignty to unelected and unaccountable global rulers so we can trade our products to other countries.....as if we never traded with any countries before the NWO proposal and we won't be able to if we don't give up our sovereignty. Then again, maybe he's right in a way? Is this to suggest that if we don't give up our sovereignty that the US will be cut off from trading with the rest of the world?

Lucille
11-10-2010, 02:20 PM
My response to the NWO types:

YouTube - Mornin' Greetings in Deadwood (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=frFfQsDYeA4)

lynnf
11-10-2010, 08:11 PM
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2008/05/21/books/obama-reads-533.jpg



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Post-American_World


The Post-American World is a non-fiction book by Indian American journalist Fareed Zakaria. It was published in hardcover and audiobook formats in early May 2008 and became available in paperback in early May 2009. In the book, Zakaria argues that, thanks to the actions of the United States in spreading liberal democracy across the world, other countries are now competing with the US in terms of economic, industrial, and cultural power. While the US continues to dominate in terms of political-military power, other countries such as China and India are becoming global players in many fields.

Anti Federalist
11-10-2010, 08:17 PM
#1 American workers are being merged into a global labor pool where they must directly compete for jobs with workers on the other side of the globe that make less than ten percent of what an average American worker makes. In such an environment, it is inevitable that jobs are going to flow away from areas where labor is expensive and to areas where labor is cheaper.

#2 Globalization has caused the U.S. trade deficit to absolutely explode. In 1985, the U.S. trade deficit with China was 6 million dollars for the entire year. In the month of August alone, the U.S. trade deficit with China was over 28 billion dollars.

#3 Today, the United States spends approximately $3.90 on Chinese goods for every $1 that China spends on goods from the United States. This represents a massive transfer of wealth from the American people to China.

#4 According to a new study conducted by the Economic Policy Institute, if the U.S. trade deficit with China continues to increase at its current rate, the U.S. economy will lose over half a million jobs this year alone.

#5 The United States has lost approximately 42,400 factories since 2001.

#6 The United States has lost a staggering 32 percent of its manufacturing jobs since the year 2000.

#7 Even high technology industries are leaving America. Manufacturing employment in the U.S. computer industry is actually lower in 2010 than it was in 1975.

#8 In 1959, manufacturing represented 28 percent of all U.S. economic output. In 2008, it represented only 11.5 percent.

#9 As of the end of 2009, less than 12 million Americans worked in manufacturing. The last time that less than 12 million Americans were employed in manufacturing was in 1941.

#10 With so much manufacturing leaving the United States, is it any wonder why people can't find jobs? The "official" unemployment rate in the United States has been at nine and a half percent or above for 14 consecutive months.

#11 Today, there are at least 1.5 million "99ers" - those Americans that have completely exhausted all 99 weeks of unemployment benefits and that still do not have jobs.

#12 Our dependence on foreign oil also represents an absolutely shocking transfer of wealth from the American people to the oil exporters of the Middle East. Back in 1980, the United States imported approximately 37 percent of the oil that we use. Now we import nearly 60 percent of the oil that we use.

#13 Energy imports account for about approximately one-fourth of the U.S. trade deficit.

#14 In states such as Mississippi, people spend approximately 6.35 percent of their incomes just on gasoline, according to a recent report by the National Resources Defense Council.

#15 Americans end up paying to support American workers one way or another. Either they buy American-made products and services that provide jobs for American workers, or they pay to support unemployed American workers on welfare. Today, over 42 million Americans are on food stamps. A record number of Americans are receiving long-term unemployment benefits. One way or another, Americans are going to pay to take care of American workers.

#16 The U.S. trade deficit is running about 40 or 50 billion dollars a month in 2010. The United States spends 40 to 50 billion more on goods and services from the rest of the world each month than they spend on goods and services from us. That means that by the end of the year, approximately half a trillion dollars (or more) of our wealth will have left the United States for good.

#17 All of this wealth leaving the United States is having a huge impact on the standard of living of average Americans. Ten years ago, the United States was ranked number one in average wealth per adult. In 2010, the United States has fallen to seventh.

#18 It is now just a matter of time until India is going to pass us as an economic power. In fact, the economy of India is projected to become larger than the U.S. economy by the year 2050.

#19 It is now being projected that China will soon dwarf us as an economic power. One prominent economist now says that the Chinese economy will be three times larger than the U.S. economy by the year 2040. According to one recent study, China could become the global leader in patent filings by next year.

#20 China has been accumulating a gigantic mountain of dollars from all of the wealth we have been sending them each month, and they have been lending massive amounts of money back to us. Over the past few decades, the communist Chinese have been able to accumulate approximately $2.5 trillion in foreign currency reserves, and the U.S. government now owes them close to 900 billion dollars. We constantly have to send top government officials over there to beg them to continue to lend us money. This is a direct threat not only to our financial system, but also to our national security.



Cue the "free trade' people in 3...2...1...

Who will be happy to tell you, when they get here, that:

A) You're a farking idiot and:

B) That those 20 items all net positives and we'll all be richer and more prosperous on the global plantation and:

C) That if you believe in freedom and liberty it must follow that you are also in favor of the global Borg Hive.

speciallyblend
11-10-2010, 08:25 PM
Obama/Cheney 2012 New World Order!

oyarde
11-10-2010, 08:38 PM
Obama/Cheney 2012 New World Order!

I think Cheney would eat him .

awake
11-10-2010, 08:39 PM
I can see this being the main topic of conversation on this board for some time as the urgency to do something is reaching fever pitches. Desperation never lends itself well to rational thought.

My only point is this, this whole issue has a common flavor, it keeps pointing the finger away from the internal polices of the Unites States; innocent victims in this whole mess. That's how I know most of whats posted in the OP article is carefully crafted propaganda.

Currency manipulation is something the other guys do, not us.

The Vampire economy awaits ladies and gentleman, we just need the right pretext to bring into being. China is attacking us with cheap goods, we're being invaded, that ought to do it. Price controls, foreign import controls, currency controls, travel controls... Boy government sure is getting smaller eh?

Anti Federalist
11-10-2010, 08:48 PM
I can see this being the main topic of conversation on this board for some time as the urgency to do something is reaching fever pitches. Desperation never lends itself well to rational thought.

My only point is this, this whole issue has a common flavor, it keeps pointing the finger away from the internal polices of the Unites States; innocent victims in this whole mess. That's how I know most of whats posted in the OP article is carefully crafted propaganda.

Currency manipulation is something the other guys do, not us.

Let me be clear:

Everything that is happening can laid to rest at the feet of the DC establishment/One World crowd.

Never once did I say that our internal monetary, regulatory, fiscal and tax policy was not the heart of the problem. That other nations are blowing us out of the water economically and laughing about it is our fault, not theirs, they are just taking a justified advantageous position.

I am, once again, in favor of hard currency, real regulatory and tort reform, abolition of income taxation, both business and personal, and replacement for funding a severely slashed fedgov accomplished through import tariffs, that would, I remain convinced, foster domestic investment and manufacturing, which is also what's needed to support a healthy middle class, both of which are vital to remaining a free and independent republic.

Cap
11-11-2010, 06:24 AM
Let me be clear:

Everything that is happening can laid to rest at the feet of the DC establishment/One World crowd.

Never once did I say that our internal monetary, regulatory, fiscal and tax policy was not the heart of the problem. That other nations are blowing us out of the water economically and laughing about it is our fault, not theirs, they are just taking a justified advantageous position.

I am, once again, in favor of hard currency, real regulatory and tort reform, abolition of income taxation, both business and personal, and replacement for funding a severely slashed fedgov accomplished through import tariffs, that would, I remain convinced, foster domestic investment and manufacturing, which is also what's needed to support a healthy middle class, both of which are vital to remaining a free and independent republic.

Good post!

nandnor
11-11-2010, 06:35 AM
nvm

purplechoe
11-11-2010, 06:44 AM
Currency manipulation is something the other guys do, not us.

What do you call quantitative easing?

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_mCu21bovdjc/SWj1ijJU8xI/AAAAAAAAAMY/dpIpnrBt1es/s400/helicopter-ben.jpg

http://jeffreyhill.typepad.com/.a/6a00d8341d417153ef011168c92ac7970c-pi

Brooklyn Red Leg
11-11-2010, 06:44 AM
Cue the "free trade' people in 3...2...1...

I believe in free trade. But then again, I also believe in a stateless/borderless world.

:shrugs:

Doesn't mean I like what is being done to this country while I'm alive. The best way to get to a world where we're not getting gang-raped on a daily basis is to divest completely all Corporate Personhood (since that is what will replace the World Government will be Corporate Enclaves as the Puppet Masters/Bankers eventually get turned on by their own people). I believe in competing currencies, but we have to get there first by going back to the Gold/Silver standard. I believe that you can shop locally (since we really only concern ourselves with local matters) but also globally via the Internet (and fuck to any thought of taxing internet trade).

I think or at least I hope that it will be people like the 4chan /b/tards that actually end up saving us when they coordinate a massive cyber revolt against The Federal Reserve and the other off-shore scum.

Teaser Rate
11-11-2010, 06:55 AM
#5 The United States has lost approximately 42,400 factories since 2001.

#6 The United States has lost a staggering 32 percent of its manufacturing jobs since the year 2000.

#7 Even high technology industries are leaving America. Manufacturing employment in the U.S. computer industry is actually lower in 2010 than it was in 1975.

#8 In 1959, manufacturing represented 28 percent of all U.S. economic output. In 2008, it represented only 11.5 percent.

#9 As of the end of 2009, less than 12 million Americans worked in manufacturing. The last time that less than 12 million Americans were employed in manufacturing was in 1941.

Why is it that articles like these never mention that total manufacturing output has actually gone significantly up in recent years ? The US is still the largest manufacturing country in the world by far, and its most productive year was 2007.

Jobs aren't stolen by foreigners, they are being replaced by higher worker productivity; fewer workers are producing more goods; and that's a not a bad thing.

The argument for protectionism makes as much sense as the argument for that we should stop educating children because they'll grow up to be too productive otherwise.

moostraks
11-11-2010, 08:13 AM
Why is it that articles like these never mention that total manufacturing output has actually gone significantly up in recent years ? The US is still the largest manufacturing country in the world by far, and its most productive year was 2007.

Jobs aren't stolen by foreigners, they are being replaced by higher worker productivity; fewer workers are producing more goods; and that's a not a bad thing.

The argument for protectionism makes as much sense as the argument for that we should stop educating children because they'll grow up to be too productive otherwise.

So if we strategically limit the population growth then all our problems will be solved...

Good thing they're working on that issue!!!

Theocrat
11-11-2010, 08:26 AM
YouTube - Obama's New World Order Speech (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lsltxgrr_o)

Travlyr
11-11-2010, 08:51 AM
YouTube - Obama's New World Order Speech (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lsltxgrr_o)

We're all Bullshitters now.

What we need is global policy makers ... for unity, and stuff, and to do more, not less, because we are sharing challenges ... global challenges ... like rising and lowering global temperatures ... and too many cars and things ... and expanding carbon footprints. BTW, we already have the IMF ... we should give them extended power to create money out of nothing, plus they are right here in Washington D.C. set-up and ready to control the money supply for the WORLD! We'll see what we can do about this when we talk to the other 19 important political powers ... the G-20 ... in Korea. Thousands of police are already stationed and putting up walls & barricades to protect us as we meet the global challenges of ripping everybody off.

awake
11-11-2010, 10:34 AM
World managed trade is what the controllers want. Free to trade with anyone in the world with out exception is what we should want.

Brian4Liberty
11-11-2010, 10:54 AM
Shocking! Who would think that the puppet for the global socialists and the Oligarchy would say such things? :rolleyes:

The Oligarchs are making billions on "globalization" and what they claim is "free trade". There's no stopping this gravy train unless they stop making money on it.

Brian4Liberty
11-11-2010, 10:58 AM
What do you call quantitative easing?

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_mCu21bovdjc/SWj1ijJU8xI/AAAAAAAAAMY/dpIpnrBt1es/s400/helicopter-ben.jpg



The major flaw in those cartoons in that the bags of money are not being "thrown out" to just anyone. They are going straight into the coffers of the Wall St. financial elite. Don't hold your breath waiting for the "trickle down". When it does "trickle down", it goes straight into crony projects.

Brian4Liberty
11-11-2010, 11:00 AM
Let me be clear:

Everything that is happening can laid to rest at the feet of the DC establishment/One World crowd.

Never once did I say that our internal monetary, regulatory, fiscal and tax policy was not the heart of the problem. That other nations are blowing us out of the water economically and laughing about it is our fault, not theirs, they are just taking a justified advantageous position.

I am, once again, in favor of hard currency, real regulatory and tort reform, abolition of income taxation, both business and personal, and replacement for funding a severely slashed fedgov accomplished through import tariffs, that would, I remain convinced, foster domestic investment and manufacturing, which is also what's needed to support a healthy middle class, both of which are vital to remaining a free and independent republic.

Nicely said.

Matthew Zak
11-11-2010, 12:14 PM
What the hell is this? I am dizzy. My brain literally won't allow me to comprehend this thread. I think I suffered from a stroke as soon as I opened it.

Anti Federalist
11-11-2010, 07:33 PM
Jobs aren't stolen by foreigners, they are being replaced by higher worker productivity; fewer workers are producing more goods; and that's a not a bad thing.

Doing more work and having more responsibility heaped on your shoulders for the same or less compensation is good?

awake
11-11-2010, 07:59 PM
Doing more work and having more responsibility heaped on your shoulders for the same or less compensation is good?

You can have all the hardest workers you want, if you do not have true, rising, real savings per head, you will be out produced by those who do have true savings. China and Germany are frugal saving nations... and happen to be powerhouse producers.

The policy of the The Federal Reserve is to ensure no one saves and that every dollar is spent on consumption and mal-investments. And of what measly amounts are saved, they get sucked into leviathan to dig ditches all over the world. The most damning thing is that absent the Fed criminal racket, most prices would steadily fall over time, much like computers... ones wages would progressively go much farther. But thanks to the goons with the printing press, they have everyone convinced deflation would be apocalyptic, so as to get less resistance when they want to floor the money printers

Kylie
11-11-2010, 08:01 PM
Dear Mr. President,


Please go play hide and go fuck yourself.


Sincerely,

Kylie

Jace
11-11-2010, 10:04 PM
..

Jace
11-11-2010, 10:07 PM
..

mtj458
11-11-2010, 11:25 PM
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_otfwl2zc6Qc/TKlDuhkptcI/AAAAAAAAOe8/6zz36T4no28/s1600/mfg1.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_otfwl2zc6Qc/TKlDwbq-P6I/AAAAAAAAOfA/7VvzILDaVMk/s1600/mfg2.jpg

Now that thats taken care of, I have to go to my supermarket and explain to them why I will no longer be their customer because their refusal to buy an equal value of goods from me as I have from them is resulting in a massive trade deficit that is impoverishing me.

what a horrible article

Anti Federalist
11-11-2010, 11:47 PM
Productivity is way up and real wages remain stagnant as more and more people chase fewer and fewer lower paying jobs and those who have jobs are expected to work longer and longer for less and less.

Real wages, adjusted for inflation, are the same as they were in 1979.

http://www.icis.com/blogs/chemicals-and-the-economy/US%20earnings%20Nov10.png

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/b1/US_Real_Wages_1964-2004.gif



http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_otfwl2zc6Qc/TKlDuhkptcI/AAAAAAAAOe8/6zz36T4no28/s1600/mfg1.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_otfwl2zc6Qc/TKlDwbq-P6I/AAAAAAAAOfA/7VvzILDaVMk/s1600/mfg2.jpg

Now that thats taken care of, I have to go to my supermarket and explain to them why I will no longer be their customer because their refusal to buy an equal value of goods from me as I have from them is resulting in a massive trade deficit that is impoverishing me.

what a horrible article

Anti Federalist
11-11-2010, 11:55 PM
Addressing the above charts, here's the lowdown.

Boobus doesn't give a shit about freedom and you can push and push and make Boobus do all sorts of insane nonsense and he'll do, happily, without question.

What Boobus won't tolerate, however, is no job, no TV, no refrigerator full of GMO food, no ball game, no beer...basically all the opiates that a modern American consumer demands.

When this whole thing falls apart, Boobus will scream bloody murder and support anybody who comes along, just so long as they "make the trains run on time". Freedom, liberty, rule of law, shit, every basic "liberal" enlightenment idea about government and it's relationship the individual will be out the window.

mtj458
11-12-2010, 12:32 AM
Depending on which chart you look at, you'll get different numbers for real wages. The 2006 Census finds median household income rose 31% from 1967 to 2004. Regardless, the inflation numbers do a terrible job reflecting real wages. Would you really rather live 30 years ago then today? We have better healthcare, the internet, plasma tvs, better and more food, cell phones, better cars, a longer life expectancy, and the list goes on. The CPI doesn't accurately reflect any of these changes.

Here's Don Boudreaux explaining this better than me in two different cases, both of which are very worth reading. http://cafehayek.typepad.com/hayek/2006/08/were_much_wealt.html
http://mercatus.org/media_clipping/calculating-real-wages?id=22094

Ignoring all of this, your charts show that we are at least as well off as we were in the past. I can't imagine that a whole lot of people would, after living both now and in 1970, choose 1970 aside from cultural reasons.

Teaser Rate
11-12-2010, 07:33 AM
Doing more work and having more responsibility heaped on your shoulders for the same or less compensation is good?

Actually, it’s less work. It’s also easier, less taxing on the body and much less dangerous than it was 30 years ago. It’s also for higher compensation because 1-goods are relatively cheaper due to better technology and division of labor and 2-your figures don’t include benefits which have gone drastically up.

I’m not really sure where the idea that things are getting worse comes from because we’re constantly improving our standard of living; we live in larger houses, we drive better cars, we have much better technology, we’re also much less likely to get injured at work or die of illness.

By every indicator of standard of living, we live longer, richer, fuller lives than we did a generation ago and much of that is thanks to free-trade.

teacherone
11-12-2010, 07:37 AM
don't those graphs just represent the automation of production lines?

Travlyr
11-12-2010, 07:42 AM
Actually, it’s less work. It’s also easier, less taxing on the body and much less dangerous than it was 30 years ago. It’s also for higher compensation because 1-goods are relatively cheaper due to better technology and division of labor and 2-your figures don’t include benefits which have gone drastically up.

I’m not really sure where the idea that things are getting worse comes from because we’re constantly improving our standard of living; we live in larger houses, we drive better cars, we have much better technology, we’re also much less likely to get injured at work or die of illness.

By every indicator of standard of living, we live longer, richer, fuller lives than we did a generation ago and much of that is thanks to free-trade.
Really? Your home may be bigger and nicer Mr. Teaser Rate. But job hunters are not finding much in the way of opportunity. I see a lot, a whole lot, tons more people on the streets with signs asking for handouts than ever before. How is that better than living in a home?

Teaser Rate
11-12-2010, 07:51 AM
Really? Your home may be bigger and nicer Mr. Teaser Rate. But job hunters are not finding much in the way of opportunity. I see a lot, a whole lot, tons more people on the streets with signs asking for handouts than ever before. How is that better than living in a home?

I don't see what short term fluctuations in the economy have to do with the point I was making. Yes, things might get worse in the short run due to business cycles, but the long run trend is always going up.

Travlyr
11-12-2010, 08:01 AM
I don't see what short term fluctuations in the economy have to do with the point I was making. Yes, things might get worse in the short run due to business cycles, but the long run trend is always going up.
Where do you see positives in the economy?
Foreclosure rates are up.
Bankruptcy up.
Lending down.
Unemployment continues to go up.
Wages continue to go down.
Prices of food and energy are going up.
More and more people are homeless.
People in many places around the world are staging mass protests.
Where do you see positives about the future economic prospects?

moostraks
11-12-2010, 08:05 AM
Where do you see positives in the economy?
Foreclosure rates are up.
Bankruptcy up.
Lending down.
Unemployment continues to go up.
Wages continue to go down.
Prices of food and energy are going up.
More and more people are homeless.
People in many places around the world are staging mass protests.
Where do you see positives about the future economic prospects?

He also said this is thanks to free trade. I thought the post was sarcastic but it is evidently completely misguided.

Travlyr
11-12-2010, 08:08 AM
He also said this is thanks to free trade. I thought the post was sarcastic but it is evidently completely misguided.
Agree. I think he is a banker living in a bubble. ;)

osan
11-12-2010, 08:15 AM
I am, once again, in favor of... tort reform...

What does tort reform mean in your world?

Teaser Rate
11-12-2010, 08:15 AM
Where do you see positives in the economy?
Foreclosure rates are up.
Bankruptcy up.
Lending down.
Unemployment continues to go up.
Wages continue to go down.
Prices of food and energy are going up.
More and more people are homeless.
People in many places around the world are staging mass protests.
Where do you see positives about the future economic prospects?

Believe it or not, this is not the first time the economy has suffered a down term. History is filled with examples of countries rebounding from much worse conditions, I don't think we're on the edge of on abyss.

Travlyr
11-12-2010, 08:25 AM
Believe it or not, this is not the first time the economy has suffered a down term. History is filled with examples of countries rebounding from much worse conditions, I don't think we're on the edge of on abyss.
It's a fact that the economy is not improving right now and people are losing their jobs, their homes, their cars and living on the streets. That is a reduction in the standard of living.

What do you see positive about that? Specifically, what indicators do you see improving?

moostraks
11-12-2010, 08:30 AM
Agree. I think he is a banker living in a bubble. ;)

:D lol

Teaser Rate
11-12-2010, 08:41 AM
It's a fact that the economy is not improving right now and people are losing their jobs, their homes, their cars and living on the streets. That is a reduction in the standard of living.

What do you see positive about that? Specifically, what indicators do you see improving?

Sure, things are bad, but that’s no reason to think that they’ll never get better. Virtually every recession/depression which has existed in the industrialized world has been followed by a recovery which made the economy stronger than before.

The burden is not on me to explain why the economy will rebound, but on you to tell me why it won’t.

Travlyr
11-12-2010, 09:09 AM
Sure, things are bad, but that’s no reason to think that they’ll never get better. Virtually every recession/depression which has existed in the industrialized world has been followed by a recovery which made the economy stronger than before.

The burden is not on me to explain why the economy will rebound, but on you to tell me why it won’t.

It will improve after we destroy the banking industry (hopefull they'll implode first), imprison the criminals, and return to honest sound monetary policy. Until then the world economy will continue in a downward spiral.

Fiat monetary systems are by definition theft. They are valueless exchanges of paper and electronic entries manipulated by privileged elite. Both inflation and deflation eventually destroy fiat monetary schemes. The destruction of the central bank is a certainty. The only question remaining is "when?"

Socialism (central planning control over people's property & lives) is a direct result of central banking and counterfeiting theft. Central banking policy is directly responsible for wars, hunger and homelessness. Time and time again throughout history tyranny has resulted in revolt. The difference this time is Internet enlightenment names names and we can target the enemy directly.

If the central bank does not destroy itself soon, the people will destroy it. Smart bankers will back off before they are implicated as criminals. Dumb bankers will stay and fight.

lynnf
11-12-2010, 09:57 AM
Sure, things are bad, but that’s no reason to think that they’ll never get better. Virtually every recession/depression which has existed in the industrialized world has been followed by a recovery which made the economy stronger than before.

The burden is not on me to explain why the economy will rebound, but on you to tell me why it won’t.

how about this for starters: 1) we've shipped most of our jobs overseas, we hardly make anything anymore 2) we've been told time and again that those jobs aren't coming back (and there's justification to believe that) 3) this was done on purpose under the UN's Agenda 21 regimen 4) we have been spending like drunken sailors for 60 years as all this has been unfolding 5) we import a lot of our food that used to be grown here 6) family farms have been getting put out of business by big-agra and government policies

looks like to me only a miracle could overcome all those downsides. I do believe in miracles but in general it takes specific requirements for those to be granted, none of which I see in evidence in our country today.

so what do you have other than "well, they've always come back before!"

lynn

nandnor
11-12-2010, 10:36 AM
nvm

moostraks
11-12-2010, 10:53 AM
Keep on ignoring my argumentation protectionists, good for you.

:confused: Where'd this come from???

Anti Federalist
11-12-2010, 11:59 AM
What does tort reform mean in your world?

I'd like to see two thing happen right out of the gate:

A cap, limit or ban on punitive damages.

A "loser pays" system for the reimbursement of fees and costs.

Anti Federalist
11-12-2010, 12:04 PM
Actually, it’s less work. It’s also easier, less taxing on the body and much less dangerous than it was 30 years ago. It’s also for higher compensation because 1-goods are relatively cheaper due to better technology and division of labor and 2-your figures don’t include benefits which have gone drastically up.

I’m not really sure where the idea that things are getting worse comes from because we’re constantly improving our standard of living; we live in larger houses, we drive better cars, we have much better technology, we’re also much less likely to get injured at work or die of illness.

By every indicator of standard of living, we live longer, richer, fuller lives than we did a generation ago and much of that is thanks to free-trade.

We are also much less free and under much more surveillance then thirty years ago.

Not to mention all the larger houses, nicer cars, flat screens and everything else is financed by a mountain of debt, which is it's own form of slavery.

All things considered, I'd settle for less "stuff" and take more freedom, thanks.

Brian4Liberty
11-12-2010, 12:08 PM
A "loser pays" system for the reimbursement of fees and costs.

That might backfire. No one would ever be able to sue a corporation (or rich person) as they could spend millions on lawyers, probably win, and then you are screwed.

Anti Federalist
11-12-2010, 12:13 PM
That might backfire. No one would ever be able to sue a corporation (or rich person) as they could spend millions on lawyers, probably win, and then you are screwed.

True enough.

I have no easy solution for that, but obviously, runaway tort costs are one of the reasons why nothing can get done here anymore.

Travlyr
11-12-2010, 12:30 PM
That might backfire. No one would ever be able to sue a corporation (or rich person) as they could spend millions on lawyers, probably win, and then you are screwed.
I like the concept of "loser pays."
Might backfire, but might just work too. I have been in front of honest judges. If the case is strong enough to take to court, then justice may likely prevail.

HOLLYWOOD
11-12-2010, 12:37 PM
We're all Bullshitters now.

What we need is global policy makers ... for unity, and stuff, and to do more, not less, because we are sharing challenges ... global challenges ... like rising and lowering global temperatures ... and too many cars and things ... and expanding carbon footprints. BTW, we already have the IMF ... we should give them extended power to create money out of nothing, plus they are right here in Washington D.C. set-up and ready to control the money supply for the WORLD! We'll see what we can do about this when we talk to the other 19 important political powers ... the G-20 ... in Korea. Thousands of police are already stationed and putting up walls & barricades to protect us as we meet the global challenges of ripping everybody off.


The Sociopathic Narcissists on Capital Hill increased spending on themselves 14.5% for FY2010 and is now over double what it was 10 years ago. Capital police force is up to 2000... ;)

Gesus, this is sooooooo Fascist Nazi Germany... round after round, just more polished. Oh, and I don't give a shit what Gore Vidal thinks or the mindless Zombies that throw themsleves to whatever party for crumbs and TV babble.

Original_Intent
11-12-2010, 12:40 PM
True enough.

I have no easy solution for that, but obviously, runaway tort costs are one of the reasons why nothing can get done here anymore.

Back in Greece, it was not "loser pays" but if you could not convince a certain number of those who were trying the case that you had at least a legitimate claim - you not only had to pay the court costs, you were fined. (I think the amount of the fine was based on how high of a court the case had been appealed to.)

Travlyr
11-12-2010, 12:47 PM
The Sociopathic Narcissists on Capital Hill increased spending on themselves 14.5% for FY2010 and is now over doubled, what it was 10 years ago. Capital police is up to 2000... ;)

Gesus, this is sooooooo Fascist Nazi Germany... round after round, just more polished. Oh, and I don't give a shit what Gore Vidal thinks or the mindless Zombies that throw themsleves to whatever for crumbs and TV babble.
It's incredible.

How many times throughout history have leaders tried to gain control of the world?
These guys think they will be the "ones."

fisharmor
11-12-2010, 01:34 PM
We are also much less free and under much more surveillance then thirty years ago.

Under more surveillance? Perhaps. But less free than in 1980?
I remember Ma Bell's mandatory rotary phones.
I remember when only criminals carried pistols.
30 years ago wasn't that long after we finally ended the draft.

Things are pretty bad, but I reject this assertion that there ever was a "good old days". One need only to scratch the veneer and look behind what happened during the 1861-65 war, or the roaring 20's, or the depression, or WWII, or Korea, or Nam, or Reagan, to see that things never were the way they were.

I prefer to stick to the point. We are not free in some pretty serious areas. Comparisons to the past are only useful in that they can show historically how being less free is bad for us. I'm certainly not looking backward for examples of true freedom - true examples can only lie ahead of us.

Brian4Liberty
11-12-2010, 01:35 PM
I have no easy solution for that, but obviously, runaway tort costs are one of the reasons why nothing can get done here anymore.

Yeah, it's the massive payouts that create the incentive for frivolous lawsuits. We need to somehow limit those. At the even bigger picture, we need to remove the dollar value from everything. Wall St. can do anything it wants, and the penalty will ultimately be nothing more than a fine. Fraud, theft, conspiracy all go away with a few bucks. Whoops, we killed a bunch of people, how much will this cost us? Even better, "gee, our massive fraud scam almost collapsed the global economy. Give us some taxpayer's money or we'll make it worse."

Teaser Rate
11-12-2010, 02:01 PM
It will improve after we destroy the banking industry (hopefull they'll implode first), imprison the criminals, and return to honest sound monetary policy. Until then the world economy will continue in a downward spiral.

Fiat monetary systems are by definition theft. They are valueless exchanges of paper and electronic entries manipulated by privileged elite. Both inflation and deflation eventually destroy fiat monetary schemes. The destruction of the central bank is a certainty. The only question remaining is "when?"

Socialism (central planning control over people's property & lives) is a direct result of central banking and counterfeiting theft. Central banking policy is directly responsible for wars, hunger and homelessness. Time and time again throughout history tyranny has resulted in revolt. The difference this time is Internet enlightenment names names and we can target the enemy directly.

If the central bank does not destroy itself soon, the people will destroy it. Smart bankers will back off before they are implicated as criminals. Dumb bankers will stay and fight.

Rather than correcting all the errors in your post (which was totally irrelevant to our previous conversation btw), I’ll try to rephrase my question.

History shows that economic down terms have almost always been followed by recoveries which made economies stronger than before, so why do you think 2010 is any different?

Also, before you mention debt, monetary policy or the devaluation of the dollar, remember that Germany went from having un-payable debts a worthless currency to conquering almost all of Europe in less than 20 years in the last century.


how about this for starters:

Nice to see someone understood my question,


1) we've shipped most of our jobs overseas, we hardly make anything anymore

Actually, that’s not true, as I’ve pointed out before, the US is still by far the largest manufacturer in the world and our output has increased by over 50% in the last fifteen years.


2) we've been told time and again that those jobs aren't coming back (and there's justification to believe that)

As they shouldn’t. Thanks to increased capital investment and free-trade, fewer workers can now produce more goods. Instead of having a large sector of the economy producing essential goods, we can focus on building fun things like cellphones and video games.

While this might sound like a bad thing, this shift translates to the following; the fewer people we need to grow our food and build our houses and cars, the less time the average person needs to work to afford them.


3) this was done on purpose under the UN's Agenda 21 regimen

The UN improved our quality of life via central planning? Doubtful. What happened was that private entrepreneurs have gotten better at producing and distributing goods and services via the free-market. Thanks to the increased competition free-trade produces, the average worker can earn enough income to buy clothing and groceries in about half the time he needed to work 50 years ago.


4) we have been spending like drunken sailors for 60 years as all this has been unfolding

True, but long term interest rates are still very low; so we’re probably not going to be hurt by the debt right away.


5) we import a lot of our food that used to be grown here

While that might be true, we’re also a net exporter, and ship out an increasingly large quantity of food to the rest of the world every year. Only China and India produce more food than we do, and they have much larger populations. There's really no need to be worried about a possible shortage of food.


6) family farms have been getting put out of business by big-agra and government policies

While I don’t support government subsidies to the farming sector, I don’t see any value in keeping family farms if they can’t compete in the market. There is nothing inherently wrong with having a few large corporate farms produce most of our food if they do it best through economies of scale.


We are also much less free and under much more surveillance then thirty years ago.

Not to mention all the larger houses, nicer cars, flat screens and everything else is financed by a mountain of debt, which is it's own form of slavery.

All things considered, I'd settle for less "stuff" and take more freedom, thanks.
That's a false dichotomy, free-trade does not create a police state, in fact, if you look at statistics, you'll find out that citizens who live in open economies are more likely to have a government which respects their civil liberties than those who live under protectionist regimes.

Globalization Index (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Globalization_Index)

Liberty Index (http://www.stateofworldliberty.org/report/rankings.html)

Travlyr
11-12-2010, 03:38 PM
Rather than correcting all the errors in your post...Please do. I am interested in learning.

History shows that economic down terms have almost always been followed by recoveries which made economies stronger than before, so why do you think 2010 is any different?
Recoveries for whom?
Your premise is wrong and your statement is false.

The economy prior to the Federal Reserve Act of 1913 was much better for the people than any period since.
The economy after the central banks took control of our nation's money supply has been stronger for governments, corporations and bankers, and progressively weaker for individuals.

Once upon a time, small towns across America were booming centers of virtual laissez-faire prosperity for producers. Now, prosperity is concentrated in the hands of a few elite.
It must have been enjoyable to have lived during the time before the central bank coup. The Wright brothers, Henry Ford, Thomas Edison, Harley & Davidson families, George Washington Carver, Nikola Tesla, Madam C. J. Walker, et al, and on and on, were entrepreneurial, free and prosperous.

History has shown that central banks manipulate interest rates and money supply to create booms and bust cycles for industries which are called "business cycles" by bankers and their media minions. Central banks have no idea what they are doing anymore. We have nothing but criminal ignoramuses in power today. And that is why the recovery after 2010 will be different.

In addition to the created boom and bust cycles, American governments have implemented heavy regulations, license requirements and laws on small business, and individuals, effectively crippling the entrepreneurial spirit. Protected multi-national corporations and governments are where the good jobs are now. Innovation is greatly stifled under these socialistic conditions.

The only hope for recovery from this depression is a return to sound monetary policy.

Also, before you mention debt, monetary policy or the devaluation of the dollar, remember that Germany went from having un-payable debts a worthless currency to conquering almost all of Europe in less than 15 years in the last century.
I hope you are not advocating WWIII as viable method of economic recovery. :eek: