View Full Version : Mike Pence To Decide On 2012 Presidential Run After 'Seeking Counsel' From Lord
Agorism
11-08-2010, 08:38 PM
http://i.huffpost.com/gen/216807/thumbs/s-MIKE-PENCE-PRESIDENT-2012-large.jpg
Mike Pence To Decide On 2012 Presidential Run After 'Seeking Counsel' From Lord (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/11/08/mike-pence-president-2012_n_780347.html)
Rep. Mike Pence (R-Ind.) briefly addressed his potential plans to mount a 2012 presidential run Sunday, saying that he'd consider it next year, but only after "seek[ing] counsel" from the Lord.
"Well, look, we've been very humbled by the encouragement we've received back in Indiana and around the country," Pence told Christiane Amanpour on ABC's "This Week." "We're intent on taking the coming weeks to prayerfully consider that, to wait on the Lord, to seek counsel, and after the first of the year, we'll make a decision."
Pence recently stepped down from his position as GOP Conference Chair, sparking a disputed rivalry between Reps. Michele Bachmann (Minn.) and Jeb Hensarling (Texas) to determine a scion.
Though some reports from people close to the Congressman suggest that Pence is more likely to run for Governor of Indiana in 2012, others are still convinced that he will be mounting a campaign for the GOP presidential nomination instead.
Pence finished first in a straw poll gauging potential GOP candidates at the Value Voters Summit earlier this year. Former Arkansas Gov. and minister Mike Huckabee came in second in the poll, which listed "abortion, government spending, repeal of Obama's health overhaul, protection of religious liberty and national security" as the participants' primary concerns.
Austrian Econ Disciple
11-08-2010, 08:42 PM
It seems everyone is Jesus these days.
oyarde
11-08-2010, 08:43 PM
I thought he was going to run for Gov. of Indiana .
sofia
11-08-2010, 09:02 PM
A true Christian never wears it on his sleeve.
Jesus was adamant about not showing off when praying, fasting, or donating.
I wonder if Pence ever asked the Big Guy if He's OK with killing Arab women and children?
Bruno
11-08-2010, 09:02 PM
God says no. He told me.
oyarde
11-08-2010, 09:08 PM
He attends Community Church in Greenwood Indiana , stop by some Sunday and ask him .
Brett85
11-08-2010, 09:08 PM
There's nothing wrong with what he said. He's a Christian and he prays regularly. Good for him. Nobody should have a problem with that.
oyarde
11-08-2010, 09:10 PM
There's nothing wrong with what he said. He's a Christian and he prays regularly. Good for him. Nobody should have a problem with that.
I do not .
Agorism
11-08-2010, 09:11 PM
All I posted was the name of the headline at huffingtonpost.
He seems to want to run for president though.
oyarde
11-08-2010, 09:13 PM
All I posted was the name of the headline at huffingtonpost.
He seems to want to run for president though.
I was thinking Govenor , but I could be wrong .
Brett85
11-08-2010, 09:15 PM
All I posted was the name of the headline at huffingtonpost.
He seems to want to run for president though.
Ok. I just don't think that his religious beliefs should be considered "news." The fact that he may run for President is interesting, however.
oyarde
11-08-2010, 09:18 PM
Ok. I just don't think that his religious beliefs should be considered "news." The fact that he may run for President is interesting, however.
Well , I doubt he could win the primary , but if he did get elected , at least he could put together a better staff than what is currently in the white house .
Austrian Econ Disciple
11-08-2010, 09:26 PM
Last I checked 'Seeking Counsel' implied a two way conversation. If he can speak with God, and God speaks to him that would make him Jesus or at the very least an apostle no? I am reminded of Sinclair Lewis at these times.
Southron
11-08-2010, 09:42 PM
Last I checked 'Seeking Counsel' implied a two way conversation. If he can speak with God, and God speaks to him that would make him Jesus or at the very least an apostle no? I am reminded of Sinclair Lewis at these times.
Well, it's possible that he could be seeking counsel through the scriptures.
Examining the intentions of your heart in light of the Bible would be an appropriate Christian response.
Motivations such as pride and self glory might be brought to light.
low preference guy
11-08-2010, 09:43 PM
Last I checked 'Seeking Counsel' implied a two way conversation. If he can speak with God, and God speaks to him that would make him Jesus or at the very least an apostle no? I am reminded of Sinclair Lewis at these times.
very often religious people are delusional and believe they see things that don't exist.
oyarde
11-08-2010, 09:46 PM
very often religious people are delusional and believe they see things that don't exist.
:) I do not feel too delusional today and have not seen a dang thing .
There's nothing wrong with what he said. He's a Christian and he prays regularly. Good for him. Nobody should have a problem with that.
How do you know he's a Christian and prays regularly? Do you know him personally? I'm not saying he's not, but some people do use Jesus for votes. Bush talked a good talk, but he was a big fake.
HOLLYWOOD
11-08-2010, 10:30 PM
Here's Mike Pence Praying to his Lord:
YouTube - From Indiana to Israel: Rep. Mike Pence (R-IN) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y2mCUx5nQu0)
Oh this is an AIPAC winner for Pence: "There's No Humanity Crisis in GAZA"
YouTube - Pence: Turkey Needs To Decide (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Jieu4UbcfQ)
Checkout Mike PENCE defend his Lord's Nuclear Weapons
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6uvvE3x0l8 (http://mondoweiss.net/2010/11/mike-pence-takes-part-in-a-venerable-washington-tradition.html)
LibertyEagle
11-08-2010, 10:31 PM
There's nothing wrong with what he said. He's a Christian and he prays regularly. Good for him. Nobody should have a problem with that.
True, there's nothing wrong with him praying, but he doesn't need to announce it, either. Because it comes off as pandering.
LibertyEagle
11-08-2010, 10:34 PM
very often religious people are delusional and believe they see things that don't exist.
Ya know, if you guys could knock off making snide remarks about other people's religions, it sure would be great.
Original_Intent
11-08-2010, 10:41 PM
I'm a Christian, I have no problem with his faith. But Jesus should not become a talking point. And now if (WHEN) he runs, he might as well put a big ol' ENDORSED BY JESUS button on his lapel. It's disgusting and I can't believe someone would parlay his spirituality like that.
I mean if he was questioned about his faith that is one thing, but to interject it into the discussion and essentially have it as a selling point - reminds me of money changers in the temple.
Brett85
11-08-2010, 10:45 PM
How do you know he's a Christian and prays regularly? Do you know him personally? I'm not saying he's not, but some people do use Jesus for votes. Bush talked a good talk, but he was a big fake.
I take him at his word when he says that he's a Christian, and I would say the same of Bush. I think that Bush's presidency was a failure overall, but I'm not going to call him a fake and say that he's not a Christian.
Brett85
11-08-2010, 10:46 PM
True, there's nothing wrong with him praying, but he doesn't need to announce it, either. Because it comes off as pandering.
I don't think he was trying to pander to anyone. I think he just answered the question honestly and said what came to mind.
Bruno
11-08-2010, 10:48 PM
I'm a Christian, I have no problem with his faith. But Jesus should not become a talking point. And now if (WHEN) he runs, he might as well put a big ol' ENDORSED BY JESUS button on his lapel. It's disgusting and I can't believe someone would parlay his spirituality like that.
I mean if he was questioned about his faith that is one thing, but to interject it into the discussion and essentially have it as a selling point - reminds me of money changers in the temple.
Good point.
And concerning after this
Bush says that God told him to go to war. An American Jihad
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=267660&highlight=bush+god
Sola_Fide
11-08-2010, 10:57 PM
I hope Pence runs for governor of Indiana. Keep him as far away from foreign policy decisions as possible.
HOLLYWOOD
11-08-2010, 11:02 PM
A Psychopathic god
Pence is a true believer, emotionally addicted to his belief in the sacrosanctness of Israel/AIPAC as an outcome of a visit to Yad Vashem.
Mark Braverman described Yad Vashem as an indoctrination center Israel for American politicians. Take a guess where Marco Rubio went? Yeap
US Congressmen are trotted to Israel, taken to YV, and administered the injection; thereafter, they are hooked.
Worth noting that AIPAC managed to carve out a special exemption for their activities in taking US legislators on those trips, from the controls on gifts to congressmen.
a. The trips to Israel have to stop, NOW.
b. Israel lobby(S) AIPAC, etc, should come under the same regs as any other lobby for a foreign state — ie. abide by gift limits, register under FORA, National Security Risks
c. Congress shall make no law — and declare no war — until it has visited the country targeted for harm by the actions of the US government. I would add a few bucks to my tax bill if every congressman took a trip to Iran.
sofia
11-08-2010, 11:09 PM
Ruben......Rubenstein......Rubio
Cuba once had a decent size jewish community. Perhaps Marco is returning to his roots.
I take him at his word when he says that he's a Christian, and I would say the same of Bush. I think that Bush's presidency was a failure overall, but I'm not going to call him a fake and say that he's not a Christian.
Well, I will say that Bush is a fake because I believe that he was involved in the inside job of 911 and a Christian just wouldn't do those things. Watch 911 in Plane Site (link in my sig) and The Master of Puppets (http://www.youtube.com/user/dieforwhatubelive#p/c/CDA020E084C4CDA2/0/JDsLyJfCff8). I will not take anyone's word for it that they are a Christian except for people I personally know, not some distant politician who talks a good talk.
Jordan
11-09-2010, 08:15 AM
We can spam the interwebz, but can we spam the heavens?
Slutter McGee
11-09-2010, 08:22 AM
Last I checked 'Seeking Counsel' implied a two way conversation. If he can speak with God, and God speaks to him that would make him Jesus or at the very least an apostle no? I am reminded of Sinclair Lewis at these times.
Oh give me a break. So the man believes in the power of prayer and following the will of God. He would make a bad objectivist, but why the hell are we bashing somebody for their religious views?
It sorta drives me nuts. Seems that everyone here is either some hardcore atheist who thinks all religions are for the weak and must insult anyone who has religious beliefs, or they are hardcore religious nutcases believing they should be able to force their morality on everyone else...(but only at the state level).
Why don't you all make some room for people who respect religious beliefs even if they don't have many themselves. Like me.
Slutter McGee
speciallyblend
11-09-2010, 08:59 AM
Good point.
And concerning after this
Bush says that God told him to go to war. An American Jihad
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=267660&highlight=bush+god
exactly,some of the biggest war hawks are christians(not all of course). We have the same problem in this country with right-wingers as islam has with radical islam! We just use government to enforce instead of terrorists, Fight Gov Terrorism! end undeclared wars and wars on american citizens!!! Ron Paul 2012
Oh give me a break. So the man believes in the power of prayer and following the will of God. He would make a bad objectivist, but why the hell are we bashing somebody for their religious views?
It sorta drives me nuts. Seems that everyone here is either some hardcore atheist who thinks all religions are for the weak and must insult anyone who has religious beliefs, or they are hardcore religious nutcases believing they should be able to force their morality on everyone else...(but only at the state level).
Why don't you all make some room for people who respect religious beliefs even if they don't have many themselves. Like me.
Slutter McGee
I see you... it would also be nice to see a bit more tolerance and acceptance of the equal legitimacy of the religious beliefs of those who are strongly religious (and not interested in forcing beliefs), but politely ascribe to a religion which is not Christianity. Not to say that many here would hold such quarrelsome intolerance, though.
Southron
11-09-2010, 09:39 AM
I see you... it would also be nice to see a bit more tolerance and acceptance of the equal legitimacy of the religious beliefs of those who are strongly religious (and not interested in forcing beliefs), but politely ascribe to a religion which is not Christianity.
The Bible teaches that Jesus is the only way. So any kind of acceptance in that sense denies the fundamental teaching of scripture.
The fact that many people will only vote for "Christians", despite being marginal "Christians" themselves, is more of a cultural thing than a religious one I believe.
The Bible teaches that Jesus is the only way. So any kind of acceptance in that sense denies the fundamental teaching of scripture.
The fact that many people will only vote for "Christians", despite being marginal "Christians" themselves, is more of a cultural thing than a religious one I believe.
We both worship the same God. Why do you refuse that we are brothers under God? We just have different preferences on how we worship Him. As this is LibertyForest.com, I'm sure we can look past our differences.
We could get along a lot better if you didn't give an intolerant ultimatum, and were less condescending. We both just want to try our best to love God, to the best of our understanding. That should be enough to set aside our differences, and be able to rationally talk about the similarities and kinship under God that our religions enjoy.
On your last point, yes it would be nice if someone like myself could run for office as a liberty candidate, but the public is not ready for it unfortunately.
Sola_Fide
11-09-2010, 09:49 AM
I see you... it would also be nice to see a bit more tolerance and acceptance of the equal legitimacy of the religious beliefs of those who are strongly religious (and not interested in forcing beliefs), but politely ascribe to a religion which is not Christianity. Not to say that many here would hold such quarrelsome intolerance, though.
I don't accept the equal legitamacy of all religions...and I should have the full liberty of conscience to do that.
LibertyEagle
11-09-2010, 09:57 AM
We both worship the same God. Why do you refuse that we are brothers under God? We just have different preferences on how we worship Him. As this is LibertyForest.com, I'm sure we can look past our differences.
We could get along a lot better if you didn't give an intolerant ultimatum, and were less condescending. We both just want to try our best to love God, to the best of our understanding. That should be enough to set aside our differences, and be able to rationally talk about the similarities and kinship under God that our religions enjoy.
On your last point, yes it would be nice if someone like myself could run for office as a liberty candidate, but the public is not ready for it unfortunately.
I do not agree that all religions do worship the same God. However, I do agree with you that we should be able to put that aside and work for liberty for all.
I don't accept the equal legitamacy of all religions...and I should have the full liberty of conscience to do that.
I accept and respect your religion. I don't think it is too much to ask the same in kind. The opposite involves oppression and force. I tend to apply the non-aggression principle. I see you as a kind and loving brother who worships the same God as I do, and I would worship God beside you. I do not see the need for conflict or thinking of me as a "second class citizen" -- we share something special and sacred that is rather rare: the striving to love God in our hearts.
I don't mean to say you shouldn't be "free" to think quite so lowly of me, you certainly have that right. But there is no need for conflict either, we are so close yet pushed apart by artificial divisions.
I do not agree that all religions do worship the same God. However, I do agree with you that we should be able to put that aside and work for liberty for all.
Well, I am sure there are countless thousands of religions, most of which might be local and involve some local demi-god of sorts. I can't say they all worship the same God. But as a Hindu, formerly Christian, I can tell you that I have worshiped the same God all my life, as there is only one God who is Supreme, and though others may wish to push me away, in my heart I know they are my brother under God. I just prefer to worship Him a little differently. I hope that does not anger or offend.
speciallyblend
11-09-2010, 10:05 AM
The Bible teaches that Jesus is the only way. So any kind of acceptance in that sense denies the fundamental teaching of scripture.
The fact that many people will only vote for "Christians", despite being marginal "Christians" themselves, is more of a cultural thing than a religious one I believe.
religion is man-made and has the same agenda as dems and republicans before there were dems and republicans! I have a feeling many christians will be very dissapointed in the end game! When the truth that is not known to man is known by man!! It is about control and power just ask the vatican and any other religious leaders who control religious sects! they probably will not tell the truth;)
People should have more faith in a higher being or god or whatever label you want to attach to the creator to make you feel comfy then any controlled religion for power and control!!!! I have no faith in organized religions! God/Creator/Highe Being told me do not trust organized religions dems or republicans except Ron Paul! It is devine intervention that i am a registered republican! Right-wingers are some of the most biggov people alive in our country!!
I will continue fighting for Ron Paul 2012 but the gop will do everything in their power to make sure it doesn't happen! Being a registered republican,dealing with the gop in my eyes is like dealing with the devil!
We should not be focusing on obama but the failed gop leadership! The more i hear from the gop .The more i think i will have to vote 3rd party! The devil is running against the devil is not a reason to vote republican!! We will see what Rand does but i do not even trust rand! Ron Paul 2012 ps we are not only fighting neo-cons but right-winger nuts in the gop most of the time one in the same!!!!
dean.engelhardt
11-09-2010, 10:13 AM
Pence will have to wait until after the football season. The Lord is to busy deciding football games.
Melissa
11-09-2010, 10:16 AM
I hope Pence runs for governor of Indiana. Keep him as far away from foreign policy decisions as possible.
Not sure how I feel about him being Governor and he is my rep but he does need to stay far away from Civil Liberties and foreign policy
Theocrat
11-09-2010, 10:26 AM
http://i.huffpost.com/gen/216807/thumbs/s-MIKE-PENCE-PRESIDENT-2012-large.jpg
Mike Pence To Decide On 2012 Presidential Run After 'Seeking Counsel' From Lord (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/11/08/mike-pence-president-2012_n_780347.html)
Mike Pence appeals to a lot of Christian conservatives because he speaks out publicly about his faith. To the average Christian voter, that sort of gesture shows that he is not ashamed of his belief in God. In an important way, that is crucial because it tells the general public where you are coming from when dealing with the issues of the day, and of course, for Christians, it marks whether you are worthy of their support, at a base level.
Admittedly, many Christian politicians are inconsistent about their faith when it comes to foreign policy and economic policy. I only wish Congressman Paul would be more vocal about his faith. Perhaps it would gain the attention of more Christian voters and lead to their following his platform, which I see as a Biblical platform.
oyarde
11-09-2010, 01:55 PM
Pence will have to wait until after the football season. The Lord is to busy deciding football games.
Hopefully in my favor :) .
BillyDkid
11-09-2010, 02:19 PM
There's nothing wrong with what he said. He's a Christian and he prays regularly. Good for him. Nobody should have a problem with that.Talking to your God is just fine. Thinking he talks back to you is something else altogether. After all it was "God" who told Dubya to be President and to invade foreign countries and kill him a whole shit load of Arabs.
Sola_Fide
11-09-2010, 02:24 PM
Mike Pence appeals to a lot of Christian conservatives because he speaks out publicly about his faith. To the average Christian voter, that sort of gesture shows that he is not ashamed of his belief in God. In an important way, that is crucial because it tells the general public where you are coming from when dealing with the issues of the day, and of course, for Christians, it marks whether you are worthy of their support, at a base level.
Admittedly, many Christian politicians are inconsistent about their faith when it comes to foreign policy and economic policy. I only wish Congressman Paul would be more vocal about his faith. Perhaps it would gain the attention of more Christian voters and lead to their following his platform, which I see as a Biblical platform.
Theo is right. Whether you agree with it or not, Christians are taught at a VERY early age that elected leaders should only be Christians. Christians don't like atheists ruling over them...take it for what its worth..
Personally, I hate when a politician wears their faith on their sleeve, and then advocate statism. But when a politician advocates LIBERTY, I would LOVE to hear about his faith.
oyarde
11-09-2010, 02:28 PM
Theo is right. Whether you agree with it or not, Christians are taught at a VERY early age that elected leaders should only be Christians. Christians don't like atheists ruling over them...take it for what its worth..
Personally, I hate when a politician wears their faith on their sleeve, and then advocate statism. But when a politician advocates LIBERTY, I would LOVE to hear about his faith.
Where the spirit of the lord is , there is Liberty . ( 2 Corinthians , I think ? )
oyarde
11-09-2010, 02:31 PM
2 Corinthians 3 : 17
speciallyblend
11-09-2010, 02:34 PM
Theo is right. Whether you agree with it or not, Christians are taught at a VERY early age that elected leaders should only be Christians. Christians don't like atheists ruling over them...take it for what its worth..
Personally, I hate when a politician wears their faith on their sleeve, and then advocate statism. But when a politician advocates LIBERTY, I would LOVE to hear about his faith.
I agree with you!
I have noticed most organized religion are great at brainwashing!! This is the key to organized religion!! I personally do not want a right-winger telling me how to live which they love to do and use big government to enforce their thoughts and beliefs on americans!!
Sola_Fide
11-09-2010, 02:38 PM
Jesus is the KING of kings, and LORD of lords...
There is a higher law and authority than that of the State. Only a sinful people crave the State to rule them like slaves. Resistence to tyranny is the Christian and social duty of each indivudual, as Hancock said.
"Because of the transgression of the people, many are the princes thereof."
Imaginos
11-09-2010, 02:38 PM
What a traitor!
Hey Mike, which God are you talking about?
The one who made you claim that we should stand with Israel until the very end no matter what?
LibertyEagle
11-09-2010, 02:44 PM
Well, I am sure there are countless thousands of religions, most of which might be local and involve some local demi-god of sorts. I can't say they all worship the same God. But as a Hindu, formerly Christian, I can tell you that I have worshiped the same God all my life, as there is only one God who is Supreme, and though others may wish to push me away, in my heart I know they are my brother under God. I just prefer to worship Him a little differently. I hope that does not anger or offend.
Not at all. We just disagree. But, to each his/her own. :)
Nothing wrong with what he said. But there's something wrong with his policies. Pence, do everyone a favor and endorse Ron Paul. Thanks.
LibertyEagle
11-09-2010, 02:47 PM
Talking to your God is just fine. Thinking he talks back to you is something else altogether. After all it was "God" who told Dubya to be President and to invade foreign countries and kill him a whole shit load of Arabs.
That is what Bush CLAIMED. Doesn't mean it really happened.
And it is really none of your affair what someone's religion is, or whether they talk to God or not. All you should care about is whether they plan to adhere to their oath of office and follow the Constitution.
oyarde
11-09-2010, 02:48 PM
I agree with you!
I have noticed most organized religion are great at brainwashing!! This is the key to organized religion!! I personally do not want a right-winger telling me how to live which they love to do and use big government to enforce their thoughts and beliefs on americans!!
Down with big govt. !!!
oyarde
11-09-2010, 02:50 PM
Jesus is the KING of kings, and LORD of lords...
There is a higher law and authority than that of the State. Only a sinful people crave the State to rule them like slaves. Resistence to tyranny is the Christian and social duty of each indivudual, as Hancock said.
"Because of the transgression of the people, many are the princes thereof."
Resistance to tyranny is correct .
LibertyEagle
11-09-2010, 02:50 PM
I agree with you!
I have noticed most organized religion are great at brainwashing!! This is the key to organized religion!! I personally do not want a right-winger telling me how to live which they love to do and use big government to enforce their thoughts and beliefs on americans!!
SB, it's the last statement that I would think is the important one. And it's not really whether they are a right winger, is it? I doubt it would be alright with you if a left-winger used big government to force their beliefs on you, either.
Religion isn't your enemy. Big government is.
LibertyEagle
11-09-2010, 02:52 PM
Perhaps Paul Should Take a Page from Pence's Playbook
Theo, I doubt God appreciates being used as part of someone's political playbook.
LibertyEagle
11-09-2010, 02:55 PM
religion is man-made and has the same agenda as dems and republicans before there were dems and republicans! I have a feeling many christians will be very dissapointed in the end game! When the truth that is not known to man is known by man!! It is about control and power just ask the vatican and any other religious leaders who control religious sects! they probably will not tell the truth;)
People should have more faith in a higher being or god or whatever label you want to attach to the creator to make you feel comfy then any controlled religion for power and control!!!! I have no faith in organized religions! God/Creator/Highe Being told me do not trust organized religions dems or republicans except Ron Paul! It is devine intervention that i am a registered republican! Right-wingers are some of the most biggov people alive in our country!!
I will continue fighting for Ron Paul 2012 but the gop will do everything in their power to make sure it doesn't happen! Being a registered republican,dealing with the gop in my eyes is like dealing with the devil!
We should not be focusing on obama but the failed gop leadership! The more i hear from the gop .The more i think i will have to vote 3rd party! The devil is running against the devil is not a reason to vote republican!! We will see what Rand does but i do not even trust rand! Ron Paul 2012 ps we are not only fighting neo-cons but right-winger nuts in the gop most of the time one in the same!!!!
Sb, yes, the GOP leadership sucks. But, every time I see you post this I wonder if you believe that the Democrat leadership is just all hunky dorey? Do you? We are fighting big government statism, amongst other things, and it is in way more than just the Republican party.
speciallyblend
11-09-2010, 03:21 PM
SB, it's the last statement that I would think is the important one. And it's not really whether they are a right winger, is it? I doubt it would be alright with you if a left-winger used big government to force their beliefs on you, either.
Religion isn't your enemy. Big government is.
I agree but most right-wingers are big government lovers and just as bad as the left! The right-wingers in the republican party are a threat to liberty and freedom right along with the neo-cons and in many cases are one in the same!! i never speak about the dems because they are not gop leadership or republicans and have nothing to do with reforming the failed gop! the problem in the gop is not dems it is republicans!! But most of the right-wingers and neo-cons wear religion on their sleeves which makes it an issue!!! examples are bush and focus on the family(a severe threat to liberty and freedom. i view focus on the family as more of a threat to liberty and freedom then any terrorists!!
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