Is the national debt real?

[Travlyr]

Seriously. Are we really indebted? To whom?

Imagine tomorrow morning the "Opinion Cartel" stated that all debts have been repudiated. What would change?
We have been told over and over again that the national debt is growing out of control, can never be paid back, and that we are enslaving our children. I don't buy that argument. We are paying for it right now through inflation. People are losing their homes, their livelihood, and their general welfare real-time right now in 2010.

If all debts were invalidated tomorrow morning, prosperity would abound for everyone ... except the bankers.

[american.swan]

Interesting. You might be right.

[Madly_Sane]

'We' aren't in debt, the government is. They're in debt to America's citizens and to other countries.

[not.your.average.joe]

Seriously. Are we really indebted? To whom?

Imagine tomorrow morning the "Opinion Cartel" stated that all debts have been repudiated. What would change?
We have been told over and over again that the national debt is growing out of control, can never be paid back, and that we are enslaving our children. I don't buy that argument. We are paying for it right now through inflation. People are losing their homes, their livelihood, and their general welfare real-time right now in 2010.

If all debts were invalidated tomorrow morning, prosperity would abound for everyone ... except the bankers.

Well, I imagine the holders of our debt would care. We are in debt to the people that borrow money to us by purchasing our treasuries.


***edit. what madley sane said..
but to add to it. Where does our government get their money from.. Taxpayers. So yes, it is our government that is in debt, and not us directly, but we must pay for our government... whether we like it or not. Or you will be visited by a friendly IRS agent.

[Seraphim]

Seriously. Are we really indebted? To whom?

Imagine tomorrow morning the "Opinion Cartel" stated that all debts have been repudiated. What would change?
We have been told over and over again that the national debt is growing out of control, can never be paid back, and that we are enslaving our children. I don't buy that argument. We are paying for it right now through inflation. People are losing their homes, their livelihood, and their general welfare real-time right now in 2010.

If all debts were invalidated tomorrow morning, prosperity would abound for everyone ... except the bankers.

You answered your own question. They keep the people perpetually indebted and call upon that debt the way they want to that benefits them the most, because they control the whole damn system.

[Madly_Sane]

***edit. what madley sane said..
but to add to it. Where does our government get their money from.. Taxpayers. So yes, it is our government that is in debt, and not us directly, but we must pay for our government... whether we like it or not. Or you will be visited by a friendly IRS agent.

Yes, we pay off the debt, but we're not just paying for the debt, we also pay for services that we use everyday. In a way, they mask it with services that we need/enjoy.

[Travlyr]

Well, I imagine the holders of our debt would care. We are in debt to the people that borrow money to us by purchasing our treasuries.
The holders of debt will not be paid back in any case. Inflation steals from the bondholders, as well as, everyone else.

Where does our government get their money from.. Taxpayers.
The government gets money from taxpayers, but the bulk of their money comes from printing and inflation.

So yes, it is our government that is in debt, and not us directly, but we must pay for our government... whether we like it or not. Or you will be visited by a friendly IRS agent.
The debt is imaginary. IRS agents are real.

[Travlyr]

You answered your own question. They keep the people perpetually indebted and call upon that debt the way they want to that benefits them the most, because they control the whole damn system.

That's right, the "Opinion Cartel" just has us believing stuff that isn't true! And they control us through news/information networks. ;)

[Madly_Sane]

The debt is imaginary. IRS agents are real.
Debt is imaginary, money is imaginary and is only real because we say it is. The national debt our government owes is made up of money, so therefore, debt is only real because we say it is.

[Madly_Sane]

We should just flip off the Chinese and say "Debt is imaginary." Then let's see where we get from there. :D

[Travlyr]

Debt is imaginary, money is imaginary and is only real because we say it is. The national debt our government owes is made up of money, so therefore, debt is only real because say it is.
That's right. Fiat money is imaginary, fiat debt is imaginary. Commodity money is real.

[Travlyr]

We should just flip off the Chinese and say "Debt is imaginary." Then let's see where we get from there. :D
That is going to happen there is no way around it.

[Madly_Sane]

That is going to happen there is no way around it.
Eventually... just hopeful- well nevermind, there is no hope. :p

[jclay2]

The fact that most americans count on the national debt whether through savings or investments of their local financial institutions, I would say yes it is very real and not something that can just be wished away.

[Travlyr]

The fact that most americans count on the national debt whether through savings or investments of their local financial institutions, I would say yes it is very real and not something that can just be wished away.
Unfortunately, it is being wished away right now real-time in front of your eyes. Buy commodities. Everyone who holds commodities will have something of value when this shakes out. Everyone who holds onto only paper or electronic credits and debits will have nothing of value when this shakes out. A lot of people will be financially devastated. Then you too will realize it is imaginary.

[denison]

Seriously. Are we really indebted? To whom?

Imagine tomorrow morning the "Opinion Cartel" stated that all debts have been repudiated. What would change?
We have been told over and over again that the national debt is growing out of control, can never be paid back, and that we are enslaving our children. I don't buy that argument. We are paying for it right now through inflation. People are losing their homes, their livelihood, and their general welfare real-time right now in 2010.

If all debts were invalidated tomorrow morning, prosperity would abound for everyone ... except the bankers.

yes. you really are in debt. you'll realize that when the gov starts selling off monuments, parks, and foreclosed real estate to the Chinese. :eek:

[Madly_Sane]

Exactly, when everything collapses and paper money/representative money will become worthless. It is actual items of value (like silver or gold, debatably) that will be used for trade.

[Madly_Sane]

yes. you really are in debt. you'll realize that when the gov starts selling off monuments, parks, and foreclosed real estate to the Chinese. :eek:
Oh my...

[denison]

We should just flip off the Chinese and say "Debt is imaginary." Then let's see where we get from there. :D

if we were stupid enough to do that then im sure WW3 would be declared over night.

the gov knows they have to pay up in money or assets. and the chinese are already buying up everything in sight. expect a changing of guards soon.

[Madly_Sane]

I was being sarcastic...

[denison]

The fact that most americans count on the national debt whether through savings or investments of their local financial institutions, I would say yes it is very real and not something that can just be wished away.

^^^^^^^^this.

[Travlyr]

yes. you really are in debt. you'll realize that when the gov starts selling off monuments, parks, and foreclosed real estate to the Chinese. :eek:
While it could happen as you describe, I don't expect to play out like that. The Chinese may try and take a chunk of our hide (real estate), but mostly default is default. Most debts will have to be repudiated. You cannot get blood from a turnip.

[Travlyr]

The Chinese already know they are not getting paid back. (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-11697483)

[Madly_Sane]

German Finance Minister Wolfgang Schaeuble said the US policy was "clueless" and would create "extra problems for the world".
Yes

The US Federal Reserve could weaken the US dollar and hurt exports to America.
Yes

The US central bank announced on Wednesday that it would spend $600bn to buy government bonds, in the hope that the cash injection can kickstart the country's economy.
They're stupid

However, this weakens the dollar, making imports from around the world more expensive for US consumers.
Yes

[Rancher]

Well, I imagine the holders of our debt would care. We are in debt to the people that borrow money to us by purchasing our treasuries.
As a bond holder I want to get paid. They'll pay.

[Madly_Sane]

Well, when the economy collapses and they don't have any money (or bank) to give out, then what are you going to do? Set out on a journey to find the 'owners' of the gov'ts bank? :rolleyes:

[Rancher]

Well, when the economy collapses and they don't have any money (or bank) to give out, then what are you going to do? Set out on a journey to find the 'owners' of the gov'ts bank? :rolleyes:
They have kept that a secret haven't they? Do you have any interest in buying my bond?

[Madly_Sane]

Not really :D

[LibForestPaul]

Seriously. Are we really indebted? To whom?

Imagine tomorrow morning the "Opinion Cartel" stated that all debts have been repudiated. What would change?
We have been told over and over again that the national debt is growing out of control, can never be paid back, and that we are enslaving our children. I don't buy that argument. We are paying for it right now through inflation. People are losing their homes, their livelihood, and their general welfare real-time right now in 2010.

If all debts were invalidated tomorrow morning, prosperity would abound for everyone ... except the bankers.

The government in DC owns the debt. The Citizens of the States do not. If the debt is discharged (by whom I do not know), then the government in DC ceases to exert any more authority and power.

[Madly_Sane]

The government in DC owns the debt. The Citizens of the States do not. If the debt is discharged (by whom I do not know), then the government in DC ceases to exert any more authority and power.

Where does the gov't get it's money? Taxpayers. So where will the gov't get the money to pay back it's debt? Taxpayers. Therefore taxpayers hold the debt, but the gov't is responsible for it.

[JackieDan]

All debts must be validated. If not, the currency wouldn't be trusted and the banks would then delete their savings and investment strategies off the dollar. World central banks would refuse to hold a non-functional currency. After that scenario, the american people would also leave the Dollar. The biggest looser of all this would be the general population, businesses, the banks and the central bank. Put it bluntly, everybody loses.

So no, that would not be a good idea. The best idea would be to establish a whole new currency based on a sound foundation and backed by something. That's when we can dump all this ridiculous debt. This means the Central Bank must give up all its obligations. But also, this would mean a lot of sacrifice among the American people. A slow transmission to a whole new currency would be a better idea. This could be within range of 3-4 years. But, of course, this scenario isn't truly realistic in today's terms. We need a strong political will to dismantle the Central Bank and the fiat dollar.

America would probably be a much stronger nation - both militarily and politically - with a sounder currency. The Roman Empire was essentially strong due to its reliable currency & economy. The American empire is significantly different because of its fascist approach with government embedded corporations stealing assets from others. If you look back in History, the Roman Empire was very well respected up until it starting meddling and debasing its currency - that's how the system collapsed. So, I disagree with the notion that America would be a weak nation without a fiat currency. It would be much more respected and trusted upon.

[Travlyr]

All debts must be validated. If not, the currency wouldn't be trusted and the banks would then delete their savings and investment strategies off the dollar. World central banks would refuse to hold a non-functional currency. After that scenario, the american people would also leave the Dollar. The biggest looser of all this would be the general population, businesses, the banks and the central bank. Put it bluntly, everybody loses.
This is happening in front of our eyes, right now. Everybody is losing, except the people who are well connected, and the people buying commodities. The Dollar is consistently losing value (http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0001519.html) because the FED inflates the money supply. This continual erosion of the value of the Dollar is negative for savers, fixed income, and wage earners (almost everybody), and a positive for whoever is closest to the counterfeiters.

So no, that would not be a good idea. The best idea would be to establish a whole new currency based on a sound foundation and backed by something. That's when we can dump all this ridiculous debt. This means the Central Bank must give up all its obligations. But also, this would mean a lot of sacrifice among the American people. A slow transmission to a whole new currency would be a better idea. This could be within range of 3-4 years. But, of course, this scenario isn't truly realistic in today's terms. We need a strong political will to dismantle the Central Bank and the fiat dollar.
I agree with your best idea scenario, but there is no political will for it.
So, it's not wither it's a good idea or a bad idea. It's about recognizing reality.

Our monetary system is debt based not asset based.

In an asset based system of money, the more assets you have the more money you have. Debts are real.
In a debt based system of money, the more debt you have the more money you have. Except you have to borrow (create) the principal AND the interest, and that is the fundamental problem with it. The debtor must continually go deeper in debt to pay the interest. Cutting spending causes default. Debts are not real.

Debt based monetary systems always end. They are created by money changers, and they are imaginary because those debts are based on promises that cannot be kept by anyone in the end. In other words, not defaulting is not an option.

Our central banking fiat monetary schemes will default when one of four events take place:

The creditors realize his/her money is better spent on something of value rather than promises (that cannot be kept) and says no more borrowing from me.
Or, the debtor says we are going to cut back on our spending spree.
Or, when the interest payment becomes so high that the borrower can borrow only the interest money to pay the interest money.
Or, when the people wise up, opt out, and end the criminal scheme.

Debt systems of money are immoral.

America would probably be a much stronger nation - both militarily and politically - with a sounder currency. The Roman Empire was essentially strong due to its reliable currency & economy. The American empire is significantly different because of its fascist approach with government embedded corporations stealing assets from others. If you look back in History, the Roman Empire was very well respected up until it starting meddling and debasing its currency - that's how the system collapsed. So, I disagree with the notion that America would be a weak nation without a fiat currency. It would be much more respected and trusted upon.