View Full Version : Oklahoma Bans Sharia Law from Courts; CAIR Files Suit
FrankRep
11-05-2010, 09:15 AM
http://www.kochsoft.com/tna/logo.png (http://www.thenewamerican.com/)
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CAIR is filing suit against a measure in Oklahoma which would prevent Sharia law from being used in the state's courts. By James Heiser
Oklahoma Bans Sharia Law from Courts; CAIR Files Suit (http://www.thenewamerican.com/index.php/usnews/constitution/5097-oklahoma-bans-sharia-law-from-courts-cair-files-suit)
James Heiser | The New American (http://www.thenewamerican.com/)
05 November 2010
On Tuesday, a substantial majority of the citizens of Oklahoma took a firm stand for the sufficiency of relying on American law in the courtrooms of their state. State Question 755 (http://ballotpedia.org/wiki/index.php/Oklahoma_%22Sharia_Law_Amendment%22,_State_Questio n_755_(2010)) on the ballot in the Sooner State placed the following measure before the voters:
This measure amends the State Constitution. It changes a section that deals with the courts of this state. It would amend Article 7, Section 1. It makes courts rely on federal and state law when deciding cases. It forbids courts from considering or using international law. It forbids courts from considering or using Sharia Law.
International law is also known as the law of nations. It deals with the conduct of international organizations and independent nations, such as countries, states and tribes. It deals with their relationship with each other. It also deals with some of their relationships with persons.
The law of nations is formed by the general assent of civilized nations. Sources of international law also include international agreements, as well as treaties.
Sharia Law is Islamic law. It is based on two principal sources, the Koran and the teaching of Mohammed.
Shall the proposal be approved?
Nearly 700,000 voters — approximately 70 percent of those Oklahomans casting a ballot — voted “Yes” on Question 755. Undoubtedly many voters considered the answer to the question to be immediately obvious, and might even have marveled that the question was being asked in the first place. Who would want foreign law or religious regulations to have any place in the courts of these United States?
However, the sad necessity of Question 755 was demonstrated in the immediate aftermath of its adoption, as lawyers for the Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR-OK) of Oklahoma announced two days after the election that they would file suit challenging the question’s constitutionality.
Supporters and opponents of the measure had, of course, publicly sparred over Question 755 in the months leading up to election day. An October 21 story for FOX 23 (Tulsa) (http://www.fox23.com/news/local/story/Ballot-Measure-Prompts-Muslim-Outcry/RGzMyF4gF0Ga-tztpAt8tw.cspx) offered both sides of the debate an opportunity to present their positions. The CAIR viewpoint was quite revealing:
“It’s not about Shariah law at all. It’s really about anti-Muslim bigotry,” says Razi Hashimi, spokesperson for CAIR.
Muslim Americans say the measure sends a message of hatred and intolerance, and non-Muslims should not be concerned about Shariah Law.
“As long as it doesn’t affect you in any way, why should you be concerned how I solve a problem between me and my brother, or neighbor who is Muslim? I do not think it should be a matter of concern for a non-Muslim,” asserts Tulsan Mohamed Boudhhir.
CAIR argues the initiative is unnecessary, since the Constitution does not allow religious law to supercede American law.
But it would appear that a majority of Oklahoma voters read Question 755 and came to the conclusion it was precisely about Sharia Law, and those same citizens might find it difficult to understand how that ballot measure could be an unnecessary repetition of constitutional principles and simultaneously a violation of the Constitution.
As Connie Hair wrote for HumanEvents.com (http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=39746):
As previously reported on HUMAN EVENTS, free speech rights are under assault worldwide through violence, threats of violence, and Sharia-compliant “incitement” laws.
In England, 85 Sharia courts are in use and are pulling even non-Muslims into the system, threatening to overturn equal justice in the courts.
The American Thinker tells of a June 2010 study titled “Sharia Law in Britain: A Threat to One Law for All and Equal Rights," which begins with a quote from the Secretary General of the Islamic Sharia Council Suhaib Hasan, “If Sharia law is implemented, then you can turn this country [Great Britain] into a haven of peace because once a thief’s hand is cut off nobody is going to steal.” Furthermore, “once[,] just only once, if an adulterer is stoned[,] nobody is going to commit this crime at all,” and finally, “we want to offer it to the British society. If they accept it, it is for their good and if they don’t accept it they’ll need more and more prisons.”
Any attempt to shut down the dual court system in England would likely cause more jihadi violence and bloodshed.
In 2005, Canada rejected setting up the dual court system amid vocal protest, yet Sharia is creeping into the legal system in divorce and custody cases, undermining the equal status of women under the law.
In the United States in August, a New Jersey judge denied a restraining order to a Muslim woman after she had been repeatedly raped by her husband. Marital rape is permitted under Sharia law.
Given the appearance of what many fear are the spreading tendrils of a theocratic system of law in the United Kingdom and Canada, the Oklahoma ballot measure was clearly interpreted by many voters as a preventative measure against similar developments taking place in this country, as well. Given such concerns, the reaction of CAIR-OK may well feed such fears. As Robert Spencer poignantly summarized the situation for JihadWatch.org (http://www.jihadwatch.org/2010/11/oklahoma-bans-stonings-amputations-for-theft-death-for-apostates-muslims-cry-islamophobia.html): “Oklahoma bans stonings, amputations for theft, death for apostates, Muslims cry ‘Islamophobia.’"
The notion that American courts should be ruled by American law hardly seems, on the face of it, a concept plagued by bigotry or the seedbed of anti-Muslim intolerance. Instead, the question presented to Oklahoma voters — and which they overwhelmingly answered in the affirmative — is whether all who reside within these United States should be held accountable to the same system of law, and that system being established by secular, not religious, authority.
SOURCE:
http://www.thenewamerican.com/index.php/usnews/constitution/5097-oklahoma-bans-sharia-law-from-courts-cair-files-suit
FrankRep
11-05-2010, 09:16 AM
FlashBack:
Oklahoma Voters Ban Judges From Using International Law (http://www.newsok.com/article/feed/208677)
Associated Press
November 2, 2010
OKLAHOMA CITY (AP) — Oklahoma voters have approved a measure that would forbid judges from considering international law or Islamic law when deciding cases.
Republican Rex Duncan, the sponsor of the measure, called it a "pre-emptive strike" designed to close the door on activist judges "legislating from the bench or using international law or Sharia law."
Members of the Muslim community called the question an attack on Islam and some of them said they are prepared to file a lawsuit challenging the measure.
SOURCE:
http://www.newsok.com/article/feed/208677
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Nullification: How to Resist Federal Tyranny in the 21st Century (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1596981490?ie=UTF8&tag=libert0f-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=1596981490)
Theocrat
11-05-2010, 09:19 AM
Ah, Muslims are now testing the elasticity of our state laws. Is that "Multiculti" I smell?
lester1/2jr
11-05-2010, 09:25 AM
“As long as it doesn’t affect you in any way, why should you be concerned how I solve a problem between me and my brother, or neighbor who is Muslim? I do not think it should be a matter of concern for a non-Muslim,” asserts Tulsan Mohamed Boudhhir.
agree
nate895
11-05-2010, 09:32 AM
agree
Yes, but allowing it to be used in our courts gives credence to the Islamic religion. I, as a Christian, am not allowed to use Biblical law in cases I bring before the court. Why should Muslims be allowed to use Sharia in a court of law?
If they want to handle the dispute through Islamic authorities, that is fine by me, but if and when they start allowing the use of Sharia law in a court of law, the courts should allow religious law of all varieties and have specific judges for each religion.
Cowlesy
11-05-2010, 09:44 AM
agree
No dude, it's not okay for "honor killings" to happen in the United States.
Either live by our laws or GTFO.
Theocrat
11-05-2010, 09:50 AM
No dude, it's not okay for "honor killings" to happen in the United States.
Either live by our laws or GTFO.
[lol] Looking at your avatar while reading your post is hilarious. :D
Yes, but allowing it to be used in our courts gives credence to the Islamic religion. I, as a Christian, am not allowed to use Biblical law in cases I bring before the court. Why should Muslims be allowed to use Sharia in a court of law?
If they want to handle the dispute through Islamic authorities, that is fine by me, but if and when they start allowing the use of Sharia law in a court of law, the courts should allow religious law of all varieties and have specific judges for each religion.
This is [one of many reasons] why the separation of religion and the State is all-important. It would be unjust for courts to judge individuals to different standards. Especially if the courts were to try to judge you under a different religious standard than your own.
nate895
11-05-2010, 10:00 AM
This is [one of many reasons] why the separation of religion and the State is all-important. It would be unjust for courts to judge individuals to different standards. Especially if the courts were to try to judge you under a different religious standard than your own.
But this opens up all sorts of absurd (used in the popular, not technical sense) implications. By that reasoning, we should allow Satanists and Witches (not the Wiccan variety) to sacrifice children they abduct because that is their religious standard.
moostraks
11-05-2010, 10:03 AM
agree
This reads like they believe it should supersede American laws as long as the offense occurs within their culture. If one of them murders another within their community under this explanation they believe that justice should only be that which is within their cultural limits. That creates a whole can of worms for one special interest group. Bad idea. If they want those laws to prevail then they need to live within a community where that is acceptable and Oklahoma said theirs is not that community...
No dude, it's not okay for "honor killings" to happen in the United States.
Either live by our laws or GTFO.
Honor killings are not part of Islam.
nate895
11-05-2010, 10:06 AM
Honor killings are not part of Islam. If you are not informed about the religion, please refrain from commenting on it.
Read the Qur'an and the Hadith and get back to me.
Read the Qur'an and the Hadith and get back to me.
Where does the Quran or hadith authorize the killing of daughters for sinful behavior for the sake of "family honor"?
georgiaboy
11-05-2010, 10:11 AM
well done, Okies
nate895
11-05-2010, 10:15 AM
Where does the Quran or hadith authorize the killing of daughters for sinful behavior for the sake of "family honor"?
Sharia law has the penalty of death for all forms of adultery, and it cannot be forgiven. This is an important difference from Biblical law. In Biblical law, adultery can be forgiven, and most of the time was in the early period (not so much in the Pharisaical period). In Sharia, such crimes cannot be forgiven.
The adulteress and the adulterer you shall whip each of them a hundred lashes. Do not be swayed by pity from carrying out GOD's law, if you truly believe in GOD and the Last Day. And let a group of believers witness their penalty.
Much of Qur'an 24 is on the subject of adultery, so it isn't as if this is taken out of context.
Edit: The Islamic God is an unforgiving, arbitrary God. The Christian God is all about forgiveness and reason.
Valli6
11-05-2010, 10:24 AM
Should prevent a slew of frivolous lawsuits like this one:
http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2010/07/muslim_woman_sues_somerset_hos.html
Muslim woman sues Somerset Medical Center for religious discrimination
Published: Sunday, July 11, 2010 *** Updated: Sunday, July 11, 2010
Rona Mohammedi went to Somerset Medical Center the night of Feb. 11 with severe chest pains. After hearing she would need an electrocardiogram, she asked for a female to conduct the test.
A Muslim, Mohammedi wears traditional garb, including the hijab, or head scarf. The Basking Ridge woman believes it is her religious duty to maintain modesty before strange men, and an EKG calls for wires to be applied to the chest, shoulders and wrists.
Instead of heeding her request, officials let her languish in the emergency room for five hours until 3:10 a.m., when her husband sought a transfer. She is suing the hospital for discrimination and violating the Patient Bill of Rights.
The complaint filed May 14 in Superior Court in Somerville raises the question of how far hospitals must go for religious accommodations. The rights listed in state statutes say patients can expect treatment without discrimination, and respectful care consistent with sound medical practices.
Mohammedi's lawyer, Tariq Hussain, said the hospital failed those basic tenets.
"According to the patients' bill of rights that exist in New Jersey, hospitals are required to make reasonable accommodations for patients for various reasons," he said. "Patients should not be denied service or discriminated against based on religion."
Spokeswoman Kathleen Roberts said, "We recognize how important it is for our patients to be able to continue to practice their faith and cultural traditions, especially when they or a loved one are coping with a health issue. We strive to accommodate our patients' religious beliefs and cultural customs, such as providing areas for prayer."
In the answer lawyer Raymond Fleming filed for the hospital June 28, officials denied the claims and say she was appropriately informed of her options and left against medical advice.
Hospitals make several accommodations to fit an array of beliefs, said Kerry McKean Kelly, spokeswoman for the New Jersey Hospital Association. The standard in the law is reasonable accommodation. "The first responsibility is to stabilize the patient and provide safe and quality health care to all of the patients present. What is considered reasonable can vary day by day ... based on variables like the number of patients in the emergency department."
Hospital officials at Jersey City Medical Center serve a diverse community and often field such requests, said spokesman Mark Rabson. "We make every effort to make sure that if a person needs and requests a female practitioner in maternity or in the emergency room or radiology, we go out of our way to make sure those people are available," he said. "We'll either call somebody in or work with the patient to have them transferred."
Mohammedi went to Mount Sinai Medical Center in New York City, where accommodations were made without her asking, Hussain said.
Chief Medical Officer Ira Nash said, "We serve a very culturally diverse community and we have a very diverse staff. That naturally creates an environment where people have appropriate sensitivities to cultural differences and individual patient needs."
Many Muslim women believe they must cover everything but their face and hands in front of men who are not relatives, said Engy Abdelkader, author of "A Muslim Woman's Guide to Her Civil Rights: When Faith Practices Trigger Discrimination in America."
"There are definitely a number of hijab-related lawsuits that have been filed," she said. "There have been settlements in those cases and compromises that have been reached. The religious beliefs are respected, and by the same token the concerns of the other party are also recognized, whether they are homeland security concerns or personal safety issues."
The Patient Bill of Rights doesn't mention lawsuits, said Michael F. Schaff, chair of the health care department at Wilentz, Goldman & Spitzer and a board member for the American Health Lawyers Association.
Generally, in New Jersey courts, that means you can sue "but it's got to be a breach of a standard of care owed by the hospital," he said. "There is no obligation to require hospitals to have a physician on staff 24 hours a day, seven days a week based on their sex, religion or nationality."
She refused treatment because the tech that happened to be on duty that night was a a male. It's obvious to me this woman knew her situation was not an emergency - I'm familiar with the area, and it had to have taken her at least another hour and a half to drive from Somerset Medical Center to Mount Sinai Medical Center in New York City.
Sounds to me like the whole hajib/modesty thing has NEVER been a religious requirement, but something some women choose. It's really just a "fashion statement".
Theocrat
11-05-2010, 10:31 AM
Should prevent a slew of frivolous lawsuits like this one:
http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2010/07/muslim_woman_sues_somerset_hos.html
She refused treatment because the tech that happened to be on duty that night was a a male. It's obvious to me this woman knew her situation was not an emergency - I'm familiar with the area, and it had to have taken her at least another hour and a half to drive from Somerset Medical Center to Mount Sinai Medical Center in New York City.
Sounds to me like the whole hajib/modesty thing has NEVER been a religious requirement, but something some women choose. It's really just a "fashion statement".
It's incidents like that which make me believe Muslims are testing our laws, using the banner of "discrimination" to win the government over to their side. It is what some Muslim skeptics call "soft Jihad."
lester1/2jr
11-05-2010, 10:55 AM
"Theocra"t being against religous law no irony here.
This is [one of many reasons] why the separation of religion and the State is all-important. It would be unjust for courts to judge individuals to different standards. Especially if the courts were to try to judge you under a different religious standard than your own.
But this opens up all sorts of absurd (used in the popular, not technical sense) implications. By that reasoning, we should allow Satanists and Witches (not the Wiccan variety) to sacrifice children they abduct because that is their religious standard.
I think you misread my post. I was arguing the importance of the separation of religion and state (which is what results in the most liberty for the most people), which would mean no religion courts oppressing people, no matter the religion.
nate895
11-05-2010, 11:32 AM
I think you misread my post. I was arguing the importance of the separation of religion and state (which is what results in the most liberty for the most people), which would mean no religion courts oppressing people, no matter the religion.
You assume religious courts oppress people.
Theocrat
11-05-2010, 11:36 AM
"Theocra"t being against religous law no irony here.
I just don't want Islam to influence the laws of our society, just as I don't want Secular Humanism to influence the laws of our society, as it currently does.
nate895
11-05-2010, 11:41 AM
I just don't want Islam to influence the laws of our society, just as I don't want Secular Humanism to influence the laws of our society, as it currently does.
But, Theo, all the religions are the same! Don't you understand?
Theocrat
11-05-2010, 11:43 AM
But, Theo, all the religions are the same! Don't you understand?
That's right! Let's all live by the NAP! And why should we live by the NAP? Because it's the NAP!
nate895
11-05-2010, 11:44 AM
That's right! Let's all live by the NAP! And why should we live by the NAP? Because it's the NAP!
lolz.
Secular Libertarian logic for ya.
reillym
11-05-2010, 12:04 PM
You assume religious courts oppress people.
By definition, they do. The religious "morals" are not "morals", and so have no place in any sort of court of law.
By religion having no morals, I mean that being moral isn't the same as fearing a fairy in the sky because you might go to hell. That's not moral, that's fear. (i.e., fascism)
dannno
11-05-2010, 12:05 PM
I like the vast majority of the wording of the bill, I like the spirit of the bill, but specifying Sharia law seems unnecessary given the rest of the language... and I agree it seems bigoted.
They could have had the same outcome without being sued and looking like bigots if they just took out the portions specifying Sharia law. I think it was dumb.
lester1/2jr
11-05-2010, 12:40 PM
why would I care if muslims work issues out by themselves? I'm not subject to it.
LibertyEagle
11-05-2010, 12:44 PM
well done, Okies
+1
FrankRep
11-05-2010, 12:46 PM
I like the vast majority of the wording of the bill, I like the spirit of the bill, but specifying Sharia law seems unnecessary given the rest of the language... and I agree it seems bigoted.
They could have had the same outcome without being sued and looking like bigots if they just took out the portions specifying Sharia law. I think it was dumb.
OK Court systems should only rule on Oklahoma Law. This is not bigoted.
lester1/2jr
11-05-2010, 01:02 PM
was there is a big raging sharia law thing going on in oklahoma? This is just silly and makes them look duped and neoconned.
FrankRep
11-05-2010, 01:19 PM
States Take Preemptive Strike Against Sharia Law (http://www.thenewamerican.com/index.php/usnews/politics/4342-states-take-preemptive-strike-against-shariah)
Joe Wolverton, II | The New American (http://www.thenewamerican.com/)
18 August 2010
Wary of the increasing influence of Sharia law and its international adherents, lawmakers in several states are taking preemptive measures to protect their jurisprudence and infrastructure from what they see as the frightening ascendancy of a pernicious dogma. by Joe Wolverton II
was there is a big raging sharia law thing going on in oklahoma? This is just silly and makes them look duped and neoconned.
Oklahoma Court systems should rule only on Oklahoma Law.
Your "neocon" comment is unfounded and stupid.
oyarde
11-05-2010, 01:29 PM
I think Lousiana has already done this .
lester1/2jr
11-05-2010, 01:54 PM
Your "neocon" comment is unfounded and stupid.
lol I ask again why was this considered so important that they had to put it on a ballot? Normally when things are voted on they are bnig current issues that effect peoples lives.
Wary of the increasing influence of Sharia law and its international adherents
in Oklahoma? These people are paranoid.
FrankRep
11-05-2010, 02:01 PM
lol I ask again why was this considered so important that they had to put it on a ballot? Normally when things are voted on they are bnig current issues that effect peoples lives.
Tenth Amendment Center:
Oklahoma Voters Ban Judges From Using International Law
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=266996
in Oklahoma? These people are paranoid.
Oklahoma is paranoid of Big Government and the United Nations. :D
lester1/2jr
11-05-2010, 02:03 PM
Republican Rex Duncan, the sponsor of the measure, called it a "pre-emptive strike" designed to close the door on activist judges "legislating from the bench or using international law or Sharia law."
If he's talking about state or federal judges isn't this already covered in the Constitution of the United States?
FrankRep
11-05-2010, 02:08 PM
If he's talking about state or federal judges isn't this already covered in the Constitution of the United States?
The Federal Government tends to violate and ignore the Constitution.
Oklahoma is expressing 10th Amendment Sovereignty through Nullification.
Oklahoma rocks!
lester1/2jr
11-05-2010, 02:14 PM
it's just random
libertarian4321
11-05-2010, 04:41 PM
Sharia law has the penalty of death for all forms of adultery, and it cannot be forgiven. This is an important difference from Biblical law. In Biblical law, adultery can be forgiven, and most of the time was in the early period (not so much in the Pharisaical period). In Sharia, such crimes cannot be forgiven.
Much of Qur'an 24 is on the subject of adultery, so it isn't as if this is taken out of context.
Edit: The Islamic God is an unforgiving, arbitrary God. The Christian God is all about forgiveness and reason.
The Koran and the Bible, generally the same BS, packaged a little differently. Only someone blinded by religious bull crap and taught to hate the "other guy" would think differently.
Since others brought up the vicious, brutal stupidity encouraged by the Koran on the subject, I thought I'd take a look at the "rational and forgiving" Christian Bible on this matter (yeah, it's soooooo different from the Koran. lol):
Deuteronomy 22:22 "If a man is found sleeping with another man's wife, both the man who slept with her and the woman must die."
Leviticus 20:10 "If a man commits adultery with another man's wife--with the wife of his neighbor--both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death."
Leviticus 21:9 "And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the whore, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire."
Deuteronomy 25:11-12 "If two men are fighting and the wife of one of them comes to rescue her husband from his assailant, and she reaches out and seizes him by his private parts, you shall cut off her hand. Show her no pity."
Deuteronomy 22:13-21 "If any man take a wife, and go in unto her, and hate her ... and say, I took this woman, and when I came to her, I found her not a maid: Then shall the father of the damsel, and her mother, take and bring forth the tokens of the damsel's virginity unto the elders of the city in the gate: And the damsel's father shall say ... these are the tokens of my daughter's virginity. And they shall spread the cloth before the elders of the city. ... But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel: Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die. "
Deuteronomy 22:23-24 "If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her; Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city."
Judaism, Islam, and Christianity are so much alike that it's utterly ridiculous that all three kill each other (in the names of their respective Gods of peace and love, of course). Not only do they kill across religious lines, they kill others of the same religion but slightly different sects.
Sunni kill Shia, Protestants kill Catholics, Catholics kill Orthodox, etc.
Idiots.
If it wasn't so sick, the Bible's obsession with "stoning" people for even the most minor infractions would be almost comical:
For touching Mount Sinai
Whosoever toucheth the mount shall be surely put to death. Exodus 19:13
For taking "accursed things"
Achan ... took of the accursed thing. ... And all Israel stoned him with stones, and burned them with fire, after they had stoned them with stones. ... So the LORD turned from the fierceness of his anger. Joshua 7:1-26
For cursing or blaspheming
And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him. Leviticus 24:16
For adultery (already covered)
For animals (like an ox that gores a human)
If an ox gore a man or a woman, that they die: then the ox shall be surely stoned. Exodus 21:28
For worshipping other gods
If there be found among you ... that ... hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them ... Then shalt thou ... tone them with stones, till they die. Deuteronomy 17:2-5
If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers ... thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die. Deuteronomy 13:5-10
For disobeying parents
If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother ... Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city ... And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die. Deuteronomy 21:18-21
For witches and wizards
A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood shall be upon them. Leviticus 20:27
For giving your children to Molech
Whosoever ... giveth any of his seed unto Molech; he shall surely be put to death: the people of the land shall stone him with stones. Leviticus 20:2
For breaking the Sabbath
They found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day. ... And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones.... And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses. Numbers 15:32-56
For cursing the king
Thou didst blaspheme God and the king. And then carry him out, and stone him, that he may die. 1 Kings 21:10
Well, there's your "rational and forgiving" God for you.
Sick, sick bastards...(and yeah, I know, the Koran is messed up too - though I could find no such obsession with "stoning" in the Koran).
Here's an idea. Let's try using our brains and rational thought to determine the right thing to do, rather than trying to find the answer to all of life's problems in an ancient book (Bible or Koran).
Is that too radical an idea for some?
Dr.3D
11-05-2010, 04:44 PM
The Koran and the Bible, generally the same BS, packaged a little differently. Only someone blinded by religious bull crap and taught to hate the "other guy" would think differently.
Since others brought up the vicious, brutal stupidity encouraged by the Koran on the subject, I thought I'd take a look at the "rational and forgiving" Christian Bible on this matter (yeah, it's soooooo different from the Koran. lol):
Deuteronomy 22:22 "If a man is found sleeping with another man's wife, both the man who slept with her and the woman must die."
Leviticus 20:10 "If a man commits adultery with another man's wife--with the wife of his neighbor--both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death."
Leviticus 21:9 "And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the whore, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire."
Deuteronomy 25:11-12 "If two men are fighting and the wife of one of them comes to rescue her husband from his assailant, and she reaches out and seizes him by his private parts, you shall cut off her hand. Show her no pity."
Deuteronomy 22:13-21 "If any man take a wife, and go in unto her, and hate her ... and say, I took this woman, and when I came to her, I found her not a maid: Then shall the father of the damsel, and her mother, take and bring forth the tokens of the damsel's virginity unto the elders of the city in the gate: And the damsel's father shall say ... these are the tokens of my daughter's virginity. And they shall spread the cloth before the elders of the city. ... But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel: Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die. "
Deuteronomy 22:23-24 "If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her; Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city."
Judaism, Islam, and Christianity are so much alike that it's utterly ridiculous that all three kill each other (in the names of their respective Gods of peace and love, of course). Not only do they kill across religious lines, they kill others of the same religion but slightly different sects.
Sunni kill Shia, Protestants kill Catholics, Catholics kill Orthodox, etc.
Idiots.
If it wasn't so sick, the Bible's obsession with "stoning" people for even the most minor infractions would be almost comical:
For touching Mount Sinai
Whosoever toucheth the mount shall be surely put to death. Exodus 19:13
For taking "accursed things"
Achan ... took of the accursed thing. ... And all Israel stoned him with stones, and burned them with fire, after they had stoned them with stones. ... So the LORD turned from the fierceness of his anger. Joshua 7:1-26
For cursing or blaspheming
And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him. Leviticus 24:16
For adultery (already covered)
For animals (like an ox that gores a human)
If an ox gore a man or a woman, that they die: then the ox shall be surely stoned. Exodus 21:28
For worshipping other gods
If there be found among you ... that ... hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them ... Then shalt thou ... tone them with stones, till they die. Deuteronomy 17:2-5
If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers ... thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die. Deuteronomy 13:5-10
For disobeying parents
If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother ... Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city ... And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die. Deuteronomy 21:18-21
For witches and wizards
A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood shall be upon them. Leviticus 20:27
For giving your children to Molech
Whosoever ... giveth any of his seed unto Molech; he shall surely be put to death: the people of the land shall stone him with stones. Leviticus 20:2
For breaking the Sabbath
They found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day. ... And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones.... And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses. Numbers 15:32-56
For cursing the king
Thou didst blaspheme God and the king. And then carry him out, and stone him, that he may die. 1 Kings 21:10
Well, there's your "rational and forgiving" God for you.
Sick, sick bastards...(and yeah, I know, the Koran is messed up too - though I could find no such obsession with "stoning" in the Koran).
Here's an idea. Let's try using our brains and rational thought to determine the right thing to do, rather than trying to find the answer to all of life's problems in an ancient book (Bible or Koran).
Is that too radical an idea for some?
Okay, so you covered the old Jewish law. That law does not pertain to Christians.
Is there an old law and new law in the Koran? If so, then the new law supersedes the old law, just like the Bible.
FrankRep
11-05-2010, 04:47 PM
Getting Sharia Law out of the Oklahoma Courts isn't an attack on Religion.
The law says that Oklahoma Courts should rule on Oklahoma Law.
libertarian4321
11-05-2010, 04:47 PM
was there is a big raging sharia law thing going on in oklahoma? This is just silly and makes them look duped and neoconned.
Yes, Oklahoma, in the middle of the Bible belt, probably the most evangelical Protestant state in the nation, was in danger of being overrun by Islamist philosophy- hide the women folks, the Muslims are coming to get us! lol
BTW, Oklahoma is about 0.1 % Muslim. Not 1%, ZERO POINT ONE PERCENT.
Praise Jesus, Clem, we is saved from them scary Muslims who was gonna take the farm and ravage the women and goats!
FrankRep
11-05-2010, 04:49 PM
Yes, Oklahoma, in the middle of the Bible belt, probably the most evangelical Protestant state in the nation, was in danger of being overrun by Islamist philosophy- hide the women folks, the Muslims are coming to get us! lol
Oklahoma isn't the only state.
States Take Preemptive Strike Against Sharia Law (http://www.thenewamerican.com/index.php/usnews/politics/4342-states-take-preemptive-strike-against-shariah)
Joe Wolverton, II | The New American (http://www.thenewamerican.com/)
18 August 2010
Wary of the increasing influence of Sharia law and its international adherents, lawmakers in several states are taking preemptive measures to protect their jurisprudence and infrastructure from what they see as the frightening ascendancy of a pernicious dogma. by Joe Wolverton II
agitator
11-05-2010, 04:50 PM
The Koran and the Bible, generally the same BS, packaged a little differently. Only someone blinded by religious bull crap and taught to hate the "other guy" would think differently.
Since others brought up the vicious, brutal stupidity encouraged by the Koran on the subject, I thought I'd take a look at the "rational and forgiving" Christian Bible on this matter (yeah, it's soooooo different from the Koran. lol):
Deuteronomy 22:22 "If a man is found sleeping with another man's wife, both the man who slept with her and the woman must die."
Leviticus 20:10 "If a man commits adultery with another man's wife--with the wife of his neighbor--both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death."
Leviticus 21:9 "And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the whore, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire."
Deuteronomy 25:11-12 "If two men are fighting and the wife of one of them comes to rescue her husband from his assailant, and she reaches out and seizes him by his private parts, you shall cut off her hand. Show her no pity."
Deuteronomy 22:13-21 "If any man take a wife, and go in unto her, and hate her ... and say, I took this woman, and when I came to her, I found her not a maid: Then shall the father of the damsel, and her mother, take and bring forth the tokens of the damsel's virginity unto the elders of the city in the gate: And the damsel's father shall say ... these are the tokens of my daughter's virginity. And they shall spread the cloth before the elders of the city. ... But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel: Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die. "
Deuteronomy 22:23-24 "If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her; Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city."
Judaism, Islam, and Christianity are so much alike that it's utterly ridiculous that all three kill each other (in the names of their respective Gods of peace and love, of course). Not only do they kill across religious lines, they kill others of the same religion but slightly different sects.
Sunni kill Shia, Protestants kill Catholics, Catholics kill Orthodox, etc.
Idiots.
If it wasn't so sick, the Bible's obsession with "stoning" people for even the most minor infractions would be almost comical:
For touching Mount Sinai
Whosoever toucheth the mount shall be surely put to death. Exodus 19:13
For taking "accursed things"
Achan ... took of the accursed thing. ... And all Israel stoned him with stones, and burned them with fire, after they had stoned them with stones. ... So the LORD turned from the fierceness of his anger. Joshua 7:1-26
For cursing or blaspheming
And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him. Leviticus 24:16
For adultery (already covered)
For animals (like an ox that gores a human)
If an ox gore a man or a woman, that they die: then the ox shall be surely stoned. Exodus 21:28
For worshipping other gods
If there be found among you ... that ... hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them ... Then shalt thou ... tone them with stones, till they die. Deuteronomy 17:2-5
If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers ... thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die. Deuteronomy 13:5-10
For disobeying parents
If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother ... Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city ... And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die. Deuteronomy 21:18-21
For witches and wizards
A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood shall be upon them. Leviticus 20:27
For giving your children to Molech
Whosoever ... giveth any of his seed unto Molech; he shall surely be put to death: the people of the land shall stone him with stones. Leviticus 20:2
For breaking the Sabbath
They found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day. ... And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones.... And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses. Numbers 15:32-56
For cursing the king
Thou didst blaspheme God and the king. And then carry him out, and stone him, that he may die. 1 Kings 21:10
Well, there's your "rational and forgiving" God for you.
Sick, sick bastards...(and yeah, I know, the Koran is messed up too - though I could find no such obsession with "stoning" in the Koran).
Here's an idea. Let's try using our brains and rational thought to determine the right thing to do, rather than trying to find the answer to all of life's problems in an ancient book (Bible or Koran).
Is that too radical an idea for some?
Are you quoting new or old testament?
FrankRep
11-05-2010, 04:51 PM
Are you quoting new or old testament?
That's the Old Testament he's quoting, which is practiced by Jews and not Christians.
oyarde
11-05-2010, 04:52 PM
The Koran and the Bible, generally the same BS, packaged a little differently. Only someone blinded by religious bull crap and taught to hate the "other guy" would think differently.
Since others brought up the vicious, brutal stupidity encouraged by the Koran on the subject, I thought I'd take a look at the "rational and forgiving" Christian Bible on this matter (yeah, it's soooooo different from the Koran. lol):
Deuteronomy 22:22 "If a man is found sleeping with another man's wife, both the man who slept with her and the woman must die."
Leviticus 20:10 "If a man commits adultery with another man's wife--with the wife of his neighbor--both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death."
Leviticus 21:9 "And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the whore, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire."
Deuteronomy 25:11-12 "If two men are fighting and the wife of one of them comes to rescue her husband from his assailant, and she reaches out and seizes him by his private parts, you shall cut off her hand. Show her no pity."
Deuteronomy 22:13-21 "If any man take a wife, and go in unto her, and hate her ... and say, I took this woman, and when I came to her, I found her not a maid: Then shall the father of the damsel, and her mother, take and bring forth the tokens of the damsel's virginity unto the elders of the city in the gate: And the damsel's father shall say ... these are the tokens of my daughter's virginity. And they shall spread the cloth before the elders of the city. ... But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel: Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die. "
Deuteronomy 22:23-24 "If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her; Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city."
Judaism, Islam, and Christianity are so much alike that it's utterly ridiculous that all three kill each other (in the names of their respective Gods of peace and love, of course). Not only do they kill across religious lines, they kill others of the same religion but slightly different sects.
Sunni kill Shia, Protestants kill Catholics, Catholics kill Orthodox, etc.
Idiots.
If it wasn't so sick, the Bible's obsession with "stoning" people for even the most minor infractions would be almost comical:
For touching Mount Sinai
Whosoever toucheth the mount shall be surely put to death. Exodus 19:13
For taking "accursed things"
Achan ... took of the accursed thing. ... And all Israel stoned him with stones, and burned them with fire, after they had stoned them with stones. ... So the LORD turned from the fierceness of his anger. Joshua 7:1-26
For cursing or blaspheming
And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him. Leviticus 24:16
For adultery (already covered)
For animals (like an ox that gores a human)
If an ox gore a man or a woman, that they die: then the ox shall be surely stoned. Exodus 21:28
For worshipping other gods
If there be found among you ... that ... hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them ... Then shalt thou ... tone them with stones, till they die. Deuteronomy 17:2-5
If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers ... thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die. Deuteronomy 13:5-10
For disobeying parents
If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother ... Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city ... And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die. Deuteronomy 21:18-21
For witches and wizards
A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood shall be upon them. Leviticus 20:27
For giving your children to Molech
Whosoever ... giveth any of his seed unto Molech; he shall surely be put to death: the people of the land shall stone him with stones. Leviticus 20:2
For breaking the Sabbath
They found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day. ... And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones.... And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses. Numbers 15:32-56
For cursing the king
Thou didst blaspheme God and the king. And then carry him out, and stone him, that he may die. 1 Kings 21:10
Well, there's your "rational and forgiving" God for you.
Sick, sick bastards...(and yeah, I know, the Koran is messed up too - though I could find no such obsession with "stoning" in the Koran).
Here's an idea. Let's try using our brains and rational thought to determine the right thing to do, rather than trying to find the answer to all of life's problems in an ancient book (Bible or Koran).
Is that too radical an idea for some?
I will suggest maybe you try giving the old testament reading a rest for awhile. :)
FrankRep
11-05-2010, 04:55 PM
Again,
Getting Sharia Law out of the Oklahoma Courts isn't an attack on Religion.
The law says that Oklahoma Courts should rule on Oklahoma Law.
Theocrat
11-05-2010, 05:05 PM
Again,
Getting Sharia Law out of the Oklahoma Courts isn't an attack on Religion.
The law says that Oklahoma Courts should rule on Oklahoma Law.
It looks like Muslims will be seeking to be elected to state offices in Oklahoma in the near future. (Soft Jihad, Phase 2 ;))
dannno
11-05-2010, 05:07 PM
Leviticus 21:9 "And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the whore, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire."
Is that was Matt was doing at the restaurant :confused:
dannno
11-05-2010, 05:11 PM
OK Court systems should only rule on Oklahoma Law. This is not bigoted.
Well the language about international law is good as well..
This measure amends the State Constitution. It changes a section that deals with the courts of this state. It would amend Article 7, Section 1. It makes courts rely on federal and state law when deciding cases. It forbids courts from considering or using international law. It forbids courts from considering or using Sharia Law.
That's what I'm talkin about..
FrankRep
11-05-2010, 05:13 PM
This measure amends the State Constitution. It changes a section that deals with the courts of this state. It would amend Article 7, Section 1. It makes courts rely on federal and state law when deciding cases. It forbids courts from considering or using international law. It forbids courts from considering or using Sharia Law.
Oklahoma Courts should only rule on Oklahoma Law. Is that wrong?
libertarian4321
11-05-2010, 05:19 PM
Okay, so you covered the old Jewish law. That law does not pertain to Christians.
What?
The Old Testament is not applicable to Christians?
Really?
Mother Fucker, I must have deleted that email by mistake.
Who sent it and when?
Please, I want to know, because I just pulled a book off my shelf called the "HOLY BIBLE" and it's got all this (apparently no longer relevant) Old Testament crap in it!
I guess we will no longer see religious fundies using the Old Testament to vilify, among other things, homosexuality and masturbation?
If the Old Testament no longer counts, I'm going to have to tear out and burn about 80% of my Bible.
Purge that irrelevant shit- burn it, burn it!
By the way, apparently Jesus didn't get the email, either (my version of the Bible has this passage in red, which means Jesus allegedly said it):
"Do not think that I [Jesus] have come to abolish the Law (the Old Testament) or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke or a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law (the Old Testament) until everything is accomplished. (Matthew 5:17-18)"
There are other references to the fact that Jesus followed the "old law" as well (and yes, I know, there are references where he does not- Jesus plays fast and loose with the law when it suits him and the Bible is full of contradictions- one of the reasons I think it's BS. What gives you the right to choose which portion of the "Holy Word of God/Jesus" you get to follow?)
“For the law was given by Moses,..." (John 1:17).
FrankRep
11-05-2010, 05:22 PM
What?
The Old Testament is not applicable to Christians?
Oklahoma Courts should only rule on Oklahoma Law. Is that wrong?
libertarian4321
11-05-2010, 05:22 PM
I will suggest maybe you try giving the old testament reading a rest for awhile. :)
Yeah, it's pretty scary stuff. But you have to read this crap if you are going to be able to understand where the religious nuts are coming from when they try to use their religion to control our lives through the heavy hand of government.
FrankRep
11-05-2010, 05:24 PM
Yeah, it's pretty scary stuff. But you have to read this crap if you are going to be able to understand where the religious nuts are coming from when they try to use their religion to control our lives through the heavy hand of government.
You are attacking Religion. The New Oklahoma Law only bans Sharia Law in Court, which is NOT attacking religion.
libertarian4321
11-05-2010, 05:26 PM
Oklahoma Courts should only rule on Oklahoma Law. Is that wrong?
My point was that religious law, whether that of the Jews/Christians or Muslims has no place in our legal system, because the Koran and Bible are both anti-liberty.
We don't need some nut with a Koran (or Bible) deciding the fate of free citizens based on his version of religious morality.
Monarchist
11-05-2010, 05:27 PM
Racists. Islamaphobes.
unklejman
11-05-2010, 05:27 PM
So libertarian4321 is your hatred and collectivist thoughts derived from reason? Just sayin'.
Theocrat
11-05-2010, 05:28 PM
What?
The Old Testament is not applicable to Christians?
Really?
Mother Fucker, I must have deleted that email by mistake.
Who sent it and when?
Please, I want to know, because I just pulled a book off my shelf called the "HOLY BIBLE" and it's got all this (apparently no longer relevant) Old Testament crap in it!
I guess we will no longer see religious fundies using the Old Testament to vilify, among other things, homosexuality and masturbation?
If the Old Testament no longer counts, I'm going to have to tear out and burn about 80% of my Bible.
Purge that irrelevant shit- burn it, burn it!
By the way, apparently Jesus didn't get the email, either (my version of the Bible has this passage in red, which means Jesus allegedly said it):
"Do not think that I [Jesus] have come to abolish the Law (the Old Testament) or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke or a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law (the Old Testament) until everything is accomplished. (Matthew 5:17-18)"
There are other references to the fact that Jesus followed the "old law" as well (and yes, I know, there are references where he does not- Jesus plays fast and loose with the law when it suits him and the Bible is full of contradictions- one of the reasons I think it's BS. What gives you the right to choose which portion of the "Holy Word of God/Jesus" you get to follow?)
“For the law was given by Moses,..." (John 1:17).
You're right, libertarian4321. The Old Testament does apply to Christians today, in its principles dealing civic and case laws as well as moral applications of those laws.
However, I find it awfully strange that someone like yourself who doesn't even accept that the Bible is true would use it against Christians to condemn them of the laws therein. If you reject it as being the word of the living God, then it is nonsense for you to try to hold Christians to its standards when you yourself have refused to accept those standards.
So, if you want to use the Scriptures to condemn Christians, then you must acknowledge them as true revelations of God, at the outset. Otherwise, you're just playing debate games, and no one should take you seriously. That's also not considering the fact that you have no rational and objective standard to judge God's word as evil, bullshit, or any other arbitrary judgment which reeks from your mind.
So, how about we get back to the subject of this thread?
LibertyEagle
11-05-2010, 05:28 PM
My point was that religious law, whether that of the Jews/Christians or Muslims has no place in our legal system, because the Koran and Bible are both anti-liberty.
We don't need some nut with a Koran (or Bible) deciding the fate of free citizens based on his version of religious morality.
Too bad that you weren't around to tell that to our Founders. :rolleyes:
Monarchist
11-05-2010, 05:29 PM
Also, neocons.
LibertyEagle
11-05-2010, 05:30 PM
Racists. Islamaphobes.
WTF? There is nothing wrong with saying Sharia Law should not be used in U.S. courts. Do you understand what you are saying? We already have a legal system.
libertarian4321
11-05-2010, 05:30 PM
You are attacking Religion. The New Oklahoma Law only bans Sharia Law in Court, which is NOT attacking religion.
Actually, I was mocking the guy who claimed Islam is evil/irrational while claiming that Biblical law is rational and forgiving- both are irrational, unforgiving, and anti-liberty.
And yeah, I think the Oklahoma vote was making a mountain out of a mole hill. Was this vote really necessary in a Bible belt state with a 0.1% Muslim population? It was more about whipping up fear for political purposes than fixing a problem.
Monarchist
11-05-2010, 05:31 PM
WTF? There is nothing wrong with saying Sharia Law should not be used in U.S. courts. Do you understand what you are saying?
Sorry if my sarcasm is so subtle. :o
oyarde
11-05-2010, 05:34 PM
Racists. Islamaphobes.
"Pot stirrer" :)
FrankRep
11-05-2010, 05:34 PM
Actually, I was mocking the guy who claimed Islam is evil/irrational while claiming that Biblical law is rational and forgiving- both are irrational, unforgiving, and anti-liberty.
Your mocking was in poor taste. Have some maturity and respectfully disagree without attacking and mocking others.
LibertyEagle
11-05-2010, 05:34 PM
Actually, I was mocking the guy who claimed Islam is evil/irrational while claiming that Biblical law is rational and forgiving- both are irrational, unforgiving, and anti-liberty.
Wrong.
"But it is to Christianity that we owe individual freedom and capitalism. It is no coincidence that capitalism developed in Christian Europe after the transnational church limited the state. In ancient Greece and Rome, the individual was merely part of the city state or the empire, unimportant in his own right. Christianity changed that by stressing the infinite worth of each individual soul." - Murray Rothbard
http://www.stephankinsella.com/wp-content/uploads/texts/rockwell_tucker_rand.pdf
libertarian4321
11-05-2010, 05:41 PM
You're right, libertarian4321. The Old Testament does apply to Christians today, in its principles dealing civic and case laws as well as moral applications of those laws.
However, I find it awfully strange that someone like yourself who doesn't even accept that the Bible is true would use it against Christians to condemn them of the laws therein. If you reject it as being the word of the living God, then it is nonsense for you to try to hold Christians to its standards when you yourself have refused to accept those standards.
So, if you want to use the Scriptures to condemn Christians, then you must acknowledge them as true revelations of God, at the outset. Otherwise, you're just playing debate games, and no one should take you seriously. That's also not considering the fact that you have no rational and objective standard to judge God's word as evil, bullshit, or any other arbitrary judgment which reeks from your mind.
So, how about we get back to the subject of this thread?
Ah, I knew I could rely on you to stand up using the Old Testament/Bible as a rationale to allow for killing people for minor "moral" infractions! Thank you!
Other than that, it was a completely illogical post.
One does not have to believe in BS to call out the (many glaring) contradictions in that BS.
One simply needs to read the BS, analyze it rationally, and find it wanting.
Also, I'd like to thank the thread starter for this topic- it made me dust off my Bible for the first time in many months. I need to stay on top of this, not because I believe a word of it, but because so many of my fellow citizens mindlessly follow this drivel and seek to impose their "moral" beliefs on everyone else through the heavy hand of government (you'd be at the head of that line, I suspect), and I can't oppose their anti-liberty agenda unless I understand it.
libertarian4321
11-05-2010, 05:44 PM
Wrong.
http://www.stephankinsella.com/wp-content/uploads/texts/rockwell_tucker_rand.pdf
Wow, I'm overwhelmed by your argument. I admit, you showed me...
Am I supposed to just accept your word, or do you want me to argue with the dead guy?
LibertyEagle
11-05-2010, 05:50 PM
Wow, I'm overwhelmed by your argument. I admit, you showed me...
Am I supposed to just accept your word, or do you want me to argue with the dead guy?
Lol. I provided one hell of a lot more substantiation than you did by throwing out your claim that Christianity is anti-liberty. You made the claim, so why don't you back it up.
dannno
11-05-2010, 05:54 PM
WTF? There is nothing wrong with saying Sharia Law should not be used in U.S. courts. Do you understand what you are saying? We already have a legal system.
I think the irony here is that laws supposedly based on Christianity (i.e. drug laws, anti-prostitution, etc) have a huge negative effect on the liberties of people in OK, yet they are scared of Sharia law which doesn't affect them at all.
LibertyEagle
11-05-2010, 05:55 PM
Sorry if my sarcasm is so subtle. :o
hehe. :D You got me another time too, didn't you? :o
libertarian4321
11-05-2010, 05:56 PM
Lol. I provided one hell of a lot more substantiation than you did by throwing out your claim that Christianity is anti-liberty. You made the claim, so why don't you back it up.
Was I not making it rather clear?
Calling for public stoning of people for adultery or disobeying their parents or any of the many other items I listed (and it was far from an exhaustive list) is, in my humble opinion, ANTI-LIBERTY.
If you want to defend stoning people for minor "moral" infractions as "pro liberty," go for it- it should certainly be entertaining to see what you come up with.
However, i'll not join you.
Anyway, have fun, I'm going to flip on MSNBC and have a laugh as they try to explain Keith Olberman's absence.
LibertyEagle
11-05-2010, 06:01 PM
I think the irony here is that laws supposedly based on Christianity (i.e. drug laws, anti-prostitution, etc) have a huge negative effect on the liberties of people in OK, yet they are scared of Sharia law which doesn't affect them at all.
Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see how drug laws are based on Christianity. But, if your point is that Oklahomans should be against the war on drugs, well, I agree with you. But, I may differ from you in that I don't have that much an issue with local ordinances disallowing things like prostitution within city limits, etc.
As far as Sharia Law goes, it's been quite awhile since I have lived in Oklahoma, but maybe they have noticed what is going on in Europe and want to nip it in the bud in their state. I have absolutely no problem with them stating the obvious that Sharia Law should not be used in their court system.
oyarde
11-05-2010, 06:02 PM
I think the irony here is that laws supposedly based on Christianity (i.e. drug laws, anti-prostitution, etc) have a huge negative effect on the liberties of people in OK, yet they are scared of Sharia law which doesn't affect them at all.
Those drug and prostitution laws need to go .
dannno
11-05-2010, 06:06 PM
Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see how drug laws are based on Christianity.
That's why I said "supposedly based on Christianity", however don't fool yourself into thinking that self-described Christians aren't the ones that make and continue that type of legislation and that it isn't based on their religious beliefs.. though I agree with you that doing so within the context of Christianity is misguided.
As far as Sharia Law goes, it's been quite awhile since I have lived in Oklahoma, but maybe they have noticed what is going on in Europe and want to nip it in the bud in their state. I have absolutely no problem with them stating the obvious that Sharia Law should not be used in their court system.
Ya I think that is what they are doing.. and if I thought there might even be a remote possible threat of that occurring in OK then I'd have less of a problem with the language.. but the law would honestly most likely have more bite in the future if they said they couldn't enforce laws based on Buddhism.
FrankRep
11-05-2010, 06:07 PM
Those drug and prostitution laws need to go .
It's a state issue. Let the people vote.
dannno
11-05-2010, 06:11 PM
It's a state issue. Let the people vote.
That's from a Federal perspective which Ron Paul often gives, however Ron Paul and most of us here don't think that states should do it either (though we might agree that they CAN do it, within the context of the Constitution, we might disagree with the particular law as it abridges individual freedom and voluntary exchanges)
Dr.3D
11-05-2010, 07:18 PM
You're right, libertarian4321. The Old Testament does apply to Christians today, in its principles dealing civic and case laws as well as moral applications of those laws.
However, I find it awfully strange that someone like yourself who doesn't even accept that the Bible is true would use it against Christians to condemn them of the laws therein. If you reject it as being the word of the living God, then it is nonsense for you to try to hold Christians to its standards when you yourself have refused to accept those standards.
So, if you want to use the Scriptures to condemn Christians, then you must acknowledge them as true revelations of God, at the outset. Otherwise, you're just playing debate games, and no one should take you seriously. That's also not considering the fact that you have no rational and objective standard to judge God's word as evil, bullshit, or any other arbitrary judgment which reeks from your mind.
So, how about we get back to the subject of this thread?
So you better not eat pork. And for heavens sakes, don't let an unclean woman into the town without her being checked by the Rabbi to see if her flow has stopped.
oyarde
11-05-2010, 07:25 PM
So you better not eat pork. And for heavens sakes, don't let an unclean woman into the town without her being checked by the Rabbi to see if her flow has stopped.
No doubt , shellfish are not to be eaten as well . Bring me all your shrimp , pigs and unclean women :) , I am concerned about all of you and will do my part to help .
oyarde
11-05-2010, 07:27 PM
So you better not eat pork. And for heavens sakes, don't let an unclean woman into the town without her being checked by the Rabbi to see if her flow has stopped.
On a serious note , you think they even let the gals go to town ?
Dr.3D
11-05-2010, 07:41 PM
What?
The Old Testament is not applicable to Christians?
Really?
Mother Fucker, I must have deleted that email by mistake.
Who sent it and when?
Please, I want to know, because I just pulled a book off my shelf called the "HOLY BIBLE" and it's got all this (apparently no longer relevant) Old Testament crap in it!
I guess we will no longer see religious fundies using the Old Testament to vilify, among other things, homosexuality and masturbation?
If the Old Testament no longer counts, I'm going to have to tear out and burn about 80% of my Bible.
Purge that irrelevant shit- burn it, burn it!
It's far too complicated of a subject to fill this thread with and I doubt you would understand it anyway.
Edit: Here is a link explaining it.
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showpost.php?p=2890028&postcount=28
By the way, apparently Jesus didn't get the email, either (my version of the Bible has this passage in red, which means Jesus allegedly said it):
"Do not think that I [Jesus] have come to abolish the Law (the Old Testament) or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke or a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law (the Old Testament) until everything is accomplished. (Matthew 5:17-18)"
There are other references to the fact that Jesus followed the "old law" as well (and yes, I know, there are references where he does not- Jesus plays fast and loose with the law when it suits him and the Bible is full of contradictions- one of the reasons I think it's BS. What gives you the right to choose which portion of the "Holy Word of God/Jesus" you get to follow?)
“For the law was given by Moses,..." (John 1:17).
Of course Jesus followed Jewish law, He was in fact Jewish. Like Duh!
Fox McCloud
11-05-2010, 09:30 PM
(not so much in the Pharisaical period). In Sharia, such crimes cannot be forgiven.
Why does this not surprise me, one bit?
james1906
11-05-2010, 09:48 PM
<-- Supports a Tao-ocracy
susano
11-06-2010, 12:25 AM
agree
Then you agree that some Muslim can get his hand cut off for theft or a woman get stoned for adultry.
susano
11-06-2010, 12:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by lester1/2jr
agree
No dude, it's not okay for "honor killings" to happen in the United States.
Either live by our laws or GTFO.
+ 1
susano
11-06-2010, 12:38 AM
The Koran and the Bible, generally the same BS, packaged a little differently. Only someone blinded by religious bull crap and taught to hate the "other guy" would think differently.
Since others brought up the vicious, brutal stupidity encouraged by the Koran on the subject, I thought I'd take a look at the "rational and forgiving" Christian Bible on this matter (yeah, it's soooooo different from the Koran. lol):
Deuteronomy 22:22 "If a man is found sleeping with another man's wife, both the man who slept with her and the woman must die."
Leviticus 20:10 "If a man commits adultery with another man's wife--with the wife of his neighbor--both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death."
Leviticus 21:9 "And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the whore, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire."
Deuteronomy 25:11-12 "If two men are fighting and the wife of one of them comes to rescue her husband from his assailant, and she reaches out and seizes him by his private parts, you shall cut off her hand. Show her no pity."
Deuteronomy 22:13-21 "If any man take a wife, and go in unto her, and hate her ... and say, I took this woman, and when I came to her, I found her not a maid: Then shall the father of the damsel, and her mother, take and bring forth the tokens of the damsel's virginity unto the elders of the city in the gate: And the damsel's father shall say ... these are the tokens of my daughter's virginity. And they shall spread the cloth before the elders of the city. ... But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel: Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die. "
Deuteronomy 22:23-24 "If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her; Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city."
Judaism, Islam, and Christianity are so much alike that it's utterly ridiculous that all three kill each other (in the names of their respective Gods of peace and love, of course). Not only do they kill across religious lines, they kill others of the same religion but slightly different sects.
Sunni kill Shia, Protestants kill Catholics, Catholics kill Orthodox, etc.
Idiots.
If it wasn't so sick, the Bible's obsession with "stoning" people for even the most minor infractions would be almost comical:
For touching Mount Sinai
Whosoever toucheth the mount shall be surely put to death. Exodus 19:13
For taking "accursed things"
Achan ... took of the accursed thing. ... And all Israel stoned him with stones, and burned them with fire, after they had stoned them with stones. ... So the LORD turned from the fierceness of his anger. Joshua 7:1-26
For cursing or blaspheming
And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him. Leviticus 24:16
For adultery (already covered)
For animals (like an ox that gores a human)
If an ox gore a man or a woman, that they die: then the ox shall be surely stoned. Exodus 21:28
For worshipping other gods
If there be found among you ... that ... hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them ... Then shalt thou ... tone them with stones, till they die. Deuteronomy 17:2-5
If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers ... thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die. Deuteronomy 13:5-10
For disobeying parents
If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother ... Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city ... And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die. Deuteronomy 21:18-21
For witches and wizards
A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood shall be upon them. Leviticus 20:27
For giving your children to Molech
Whosoever ... giveth any of his seed unto Molech; he shall surely be put to death: the people of the land shall stone him with stones. Leviticus 20:2
For breaking the Sabbath
They found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day. ... And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones.... And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses. Numbers 15:32-56
For cursing the king
Thou didst blaspheme God and the king. And then carry him out, and stone him, that he may die. 1 Kings 21:10
Well, there's your "rational and forgiving" God for you.
Sick, sick bastards...(and yeah, I know, the Koran is messed up too - though I could find no such obsession with "stoning" in the Koran).
Here's an idea. Let's try using our brains and rational thought to determine the right thing to do, rather than trying to find the answer to all of life's problems in an ancient book (Bible or Koran).
Is that too radical an idea for some?
None of that has anything to do with the teachings of JC. You just quoted the OT, which is Judaism.
BlackTerrel
11-09-2010, 05:33 AM
This law and "Sharia" aren't exactly my top priorities. But it is incredibly concerning that one judge can overturn what 70 PERCENT of Oklahomans voted for. Why do we even vote?
This after a judge overturned prop 8 in California.
BlackTerrel
11-09-2010, 05:46 AM
I think the irony here is that laws supposedly based on Christianity (i.e. drug laws, anti-prostitution, etc) have a huge negative effect on the liberties of people in OK, yet they are scared of Sharia law which doesn't affect them at all.
How about the people of Oklahoma decide what is important to them - rather than one appointed judge. That's liberty.
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