computer

[Acala]

I want someone to build a computer for me. Should I have the local computer shop do it or should I order it from somewhere? If I have the local shop do it and there is a problem, I can just drive it over to them for repairs. But they might not be the best folks to do the original build.

Opinions?

References?

Thanks!

[pcosmar]

Build it yourself.
There are many resources online.

Also there are a few folks here that can help you.
:cool:

[brandon]

If you don't have much knowledge of computers your best bet is probably buying a pre-built computer from a big chain store like Best Buy. At least you know what you're getting and know you're not getting ripped off.

[pcosmar]

If you don't have much knowledge of computers your best bet is probably buying a pre-built computer from a big chain store like Best Buy. At least you know what you're getting and know you're not getting ripped off.

If you have little knowledge,,how do you know if you are being ripped off?
how would you know what you are getting?

There are resources on building you own. Use them and educate yourself.

I say this as an old dog that has learned new tricks.

http://www.pcmech.com/byopc/
http://www.build-your-own-computers.com/
http://www.build-your-own-cheap-computer.com/

:cool:

[Acala]

If you have little knowledge,,how do you know if you are being ripped off?
how would you know what you are getting?

There are resources on building you own. Use them and educate yourself.

I say this as an old dog that has learned new tricks.

http://www.pcmech.com/byopc/
http://www.build-your-own-computers.com/
http://www.build-your-own-cheap-computer.com/

:cool:

In the one link I followed, the guy said it took him several years to "get comfortable" with building his own computer. I'm a pretty capable guy when it comes to building stuff, but I don't have a couple years to get up to speed on this.

[Acala]

If you don't have much knowledge of computers your best bet is probably buying a pre-built computer from a big chain store like Best Buy. At least you know what you're getting and know you're not getting ripped off.

The problem with going through one of the chain stores is they will force me to use Microsoft products. I want to run linux and windows on a duel boot system. That way I can use linux for email and the net and windows only for software that won't run on linux. That makes the system pretty much virus/malware proof.

[FunkBuddha]

I second the build-your-own comment. I've been doing it since I was 9 years old and believe me, it is much easier to do nowadays. As long as you can plug in cables and operate a screwdriver you should be good to go.

Figure out what you want to spend and make a list of what your requirements are and we can help you spec one out.

[FunkBuddha]

The problem with going through one of the chain stores is they will force me to use Microsoft products. I want to run linux and windows on a duel boot system. That way I can use linux for email and the net and windows only for software that won't run on linux. That makes the system pretty much virus/malware proof.

If you aren't going to be playing graphic intense games, I recommend virtualizing your Windows OS rather than dual booting.

[Danke]

PM Kludge.

[Acala]

If you aren't going to be playing graphic intense games, I recommend virtualizing your Windows OS rather than dual booting.


What does that mean?

[Acala]

If you aren't going to be playing graphic intense games, I recommend virtualizing your Windows OS rather than dual booting.

Is that like using linux to emulate the windows OS?

[FunkBuddha]

What does that mean?

You would be running Windows inside of Linux rather than dual-booting. You could also run a virtualized instance of Linux inside of Windows and do all of your web browsing and email from there. Think of a virtual machine as a virtual computer inside of a computer.

[pcosmar]

Is that like using linux to emulate the windows OS?
No, in a Virtual Machine you can have windoze run in a safe environment, separate from the Linux OS.
I dual boot though, until I can get the bucks to build a system.
I only use windoze for a game anyway.

[Kludge]

If your worry is viruses and want to use the linux partition for web browsing, I think your best bet would be to go with FB's response, though unless you have the time and patience to learn how to use Linux, I'd just install a separate instance of Windows.

VMware is quite popular, feature-rich, user-friendly, and now has a free version. You can also toy around with Linux in there if you like. I suspect you'd be trying out Ubuntu if you've never used Linux before which you'll probably soon find frustratingly-buggy. Web-browsing in Linux can also be a problem (time-consuming, at least) when trying to view certain media-rich content.

With regards to how you should purchase the computer - it depends on what you want to do and if size-constraints matter to you -- and price, ofc. Though I was interested in starting one, I would never recommend you go to a local PC shop. Some of them are the most disgusting swindlers I've ever come to know - and their cons seem pretty common in the various places I've lived in, especially if you don't know what you're buying. They'll sell you a refurbished PC with half the guts stripped out without changing the specs sticker on the front so it misleads you -- and they'll still charge you retail as if it's new.

I think your best bet would be to purchase a PC off Newegg.com (which now has a really cool "compare" feature on its site) or somewhere similar. They have a fairly generous return policy of their own, and specs + mfr. warranties are clearly listed. Alternately, the less-user-friendly Tigerdirect.com is also an option.

[BFranklin]

I built my own....buy a case, motherboard, cpu, ram, video card, hard drive, dvd drive...take your time look at the manual to make all the proper connections and thats it.

www.newegg.com

[dannno]

I built my own....buy a case, motherboard, cpu, ram, video card, hard drive, dvd drive...take your time look at the manual to make all the proper connections and thats it.

www.newegg.com

Ya, each component you buy has a manual. If you just sit down some weekend and setup and get to know your case (read the instructions) and then install your motherboard onto the case, CPU, power supply, then plug all the other components in it really helps you familiarize yourself with the computer better.. It's like driving a stick shift instead of an automatic.

I disagree with kludge that Ubuntu is really buggy when it comes to web browsing media rich content. You MIGHT have an issue with flash if you have the 64-bit version, but when it was an issue there were instructions all over the web on how to get it working properly and I haven't had too many issues except Netflix. Netflix only works on windows because they use a special plugin with proprietary DRM software.. but you can always install XP on virtual box for windows stuff

[dannno]

Is that like using linux to emulate the windows OS?

So you install a piece of software called "VirtualBox" and you setup almost like a virtual partition.. you get to tell it how much hard drive space it gets, how much processor, memory and video memory it gets.

Then you press a button and the virtual computer boots up within linux, then you actually install Windows like you would on a new computer. You can restart or shut down your virtual computer, it's like having a computer in a computer.

[FunkBuddha]

And then if you want to get really fancy, install Linux in a VM and use putty or plink and xming with RSA keys to allow you to run applications within your VM windowed like they were a Windows app using X11 forwarding. It's easier than it sounds and you get the best of both worlds.... The application compatibility of Windows with the security of Linux without a reboot.

I'm kinda geeky like that.

[dannno]

And then if you want to get really fancy, install Linux in a VM and use putty or plink and xming with RSA keys to allow you to run applications within your VM windowed like they were a Windows app using X11 forwarding. It's easier than it sounds and you get the best of both worlds.... The application compatibility of Windows with the security of Linux without a reboot.

I'm kinda geeky like that.

One of the reasons I really like linux is the performance.. I feel like if i were running linux in an instance of windows I wouldn't get the performance benefits..

I like games but i never really play them, but i want to be able to install games and play them if/when I feel like it.. so installing linux in an instance of windows is sorta tempting but i feel like the vast majority of what I use my computer for would end up underperforming and I'd only be doing it for games which I don't really play.. and well also for better performance of netflix I suppose..

[FunkBuddha]

One of the reasons I really like linux is the performance.. I feel like if i were running linux in an instance of windows I wouldn't get the performance benefits..

I like games but i never really play them, but i want to be able to install games and play them if/when I feel like it.. so installing linux in an instance of windows is sorta tempting but i feel like the vast majority of what I use my computer for would end up underperforming and I'd only be doing it for games which I don't really play.. and well also for better performance of netflix I suppose..

If you have the time, try it out. I think you will be surprised at how fast and stable it is. I run Windows 7 64 bit as the host with an Ubuntu 64-bit guest under VMware 7 on a 2.8Ghz Core2 with 8GB of RAM and I haven't noticed any performance issues.

If you glanced at my desktop, you would probably be confused at first as to which OS I was actually running. I have 3 monitors with Windows open from SCO Unix machines and my Linux VM.

[libertarian4321]

The problem with going through one of the chain stores is they will force me to use Microsoft products. I want to run linux and windows on a duel boot system. That way I can use linux for email and the net and windows only for software that won't run on linux. That makes the system pretty much virus/malware proof.

Why would you need a home brew computer for that? It's a whole lot easier to just reconfigure the software on a system from Dell (or whomever) than to build the whole computer from scratch then load the software.

I used to build my own back in the '80s and early '90s- back in those days, you could save good money buy building your own. Prices have dropped so much, and margins are so low on computers, its just not worth the hassle anymore with the possible exception of building something really special that isn't available commercially (e.g. a screaming fast gaming system) or if you just like do it yourself activities.

[Acala]

Why would you need a home brew computer for that? It's a whole lot easier to just reconfigure the software on a system from Dell (or whomever) than to build the whole computer from scratch then load the software.

I used to build my own back in the '80s and early '90s- back in those days, you could save good money buy building your own. Prices have dropped so much, and margins are so low on computers, its just not worth the hassle anymore with the possible exception of building something really special that isn't available commercially (e.g. a screaming fast gaming system) or if you just like do it yourself activities.

Maybe I can use an off-the-shelf unit. But I couldn't load linux (ubuntu) on my Sony lap top. So I took it to the local geeks and they couldn't do it either. Some hard drive driver incompatibility they couldn't fix. So now I have Windows 7 on my lap top. :-( I don't want to buy an off-the-shelf unit and find myself stuck with windows again. Plus, if I reconfigure it to dual boot with Ubuntu, it will probably void my warranty so when windows or some component goes bonkers I will not be able to make the seller fix it.

These are my concerns.

On the other hand, I love DIY. So if I could build my own that would be a kick. But I don't have a bunch of spare time for that.

[Kludge]

Maybe I can use an off-the-shelf unit. But I couldn't load linux (ubuntu) on my Sony lap top. So I took it to the local geeks and they couldn't do it either. Some hard drive driver incompatibility they couldn't fix. So now I have Windows 7 on my lap top. :-( I don't want to buy an off-the-shelf unit and find myself stuck with windows again. Plus, if I reconfigure it to dual boot with Ubuntu, it will probably void my warranty so when windows or some component goes bonkers I will not be able to make the seller fix it.

These are my concerns.

On the other hand, I love DIY. So if I could build my own that would be a kick. But I don't have a bunch of spare time for that.

Building a PC shouldn't take you more than an hour after you have the parts. Looking for the parts could take from 30 minutes to an entire day, or weeks if you're excessively frugal. OTOH, websites like Newegg.com sell DIY kits. They're over-priced and generally customized in a frustrating manner, but they'll probably still be cheaper than an off-the-shelf PC.

Generally, the hardware of a PC is under warranty, not the software (like the OS), and they only care if you change the hardware either physically or by doing something like overclocking the components. There shouldn't be any warranty problem from dual-booting your PC, but that'd be something you'd want to have checked out. Here's a decent video step-by-step on assembling a PC (I couldn't find the article I wanted)- http://www.maximumpc.com/article/features/video_how_build_pc_ever_step_explained Here's another article in text for a specific build, but yours should be similar and components should come with an installation manual.

I still think your best bet is to purchase an already-assembled PC off of Newegg.com and then go with FB's suggestion of running virtualization software (mentioned before in this thread) to browse the Internet and check email.

Cheers!

[Acala]

I appreciate all the help.

So as I understand it, you are saying I can load ubuntu and then install virtualization software and then install windows within that program environment and that will allow me to run windows software?

So it would boot up in linux and then I could run linux software or open windows within linux and run windows software?

My son might want to run graphic-intensive games on it when he visits. Would he be able to do that? Would he be able to run Steam? (should I let him?)

[EndDaFed]

It's not worth it. It's a real pain in the ass if you get parts and they are DOA. Then you have to pay shipping to send them back and wait awhile. That takes way too long. You don't save hardly any money on a system build. I would only suggest it if you were going to do some extreme over clocking or needed a highly specialized system configuration for a specific task. In that case you would need well matched hardware for the task. You would be better served going to your local computer shop and getting a system that way you could at least get it fixed fast without waiting on an OEM. Ask people who have bought their computers from the local guys about their quality of service. Do searches on the company. If you find a system you like compare the price with systems of similar specs to other computer shops. Post the specs and price here and we will tell you if it's worth it. Ask about warranty, and what parts and labor are covered. If you can't find an honest builder near you go with the OEMs.

[EndDaFed]

Virtual machines are worth playing with. You don't need linux to use Virtual Box. There is a windows version that works well as well as a mac version. If you want great browser security install virtual box on your windows machine then load a live CD of your favorite Linux distro and no need to worry about malware.

There is a common misconception about virtual machines. It's not the same as emulation. Virtualization is different in that the software shares the hardware of the physical machine. Emulation is where one software environment mimics the environment of another form of software. Make sure if you have a multicore CPU to enable virtualization in the BIOS.

[legion]

Don't build your own computer.

Computers are commodities these days and its a HUGE PAIN IN THE ASS to specify one with almost zero benefit.

I bought my last laptop for 400$ at staples. I've had it for 4 years and I'm about to throw it out. Not because its too slow, but because of general wear and tear from slinging it around. Did I mention that its a HUGE PAIN IN THE ASS to specify a desktop computer?

[Kludge]

I appreciate all the help.

So as I understand it, you are saying I can load ubuntu and then install virtualization software and then install windows within that program environment and that will allow me to run windows software?

So it would boot up in linux and then I could run linux software or open windows within linux and run windows software?

My son might want to run graphic-intensive games on it when he visits. Would he be able to do that? Would he be able to run Steam? (should I let him?)

I've used Ubuntu off and on for about a year. If you haven't used it, I really don't think you're going to want it as your primary OS. There are many problems you'll likely run into, especially OS freezes and even problems with installing supported software. If you're just going to be surfing the web and checking email, I think your better bet would be to use Windows and then virtually run Ubuntu using VMware or Virtualbox - or whatever. With Windows NT and above, I can have my PC running for weeks at a time without any problems. With Ubuntu, I may be able to run it for 4-6 hours without something happening where I need to reboot for the computer to be usable again (but this is not the case with all Linux distros. I've had no problems running Mint and some less user-friendly distros). I think your computer would be far more stable if you boot into Windows and then run Ubuntu on a VM.

If you didn't already know, any web-surfing you do on a virtual computer cannot infect your primary PC. So, say you download some self-replicating virus while surfing on your virtual Ubuntu - it cannot infect your Windows OS.


Don't build your own computer.

Computers are commodities these days and its a HUGE PAIN IN THE ASS to specify one with almost zero benefit.

I think we were talking about actually ordering the parts and him assembling them. There are many benefits to building your own PC if you know what you want to do with it and where the bottlenecks will be when you're using the software you want.

[newbitech]

build it your self. its not hard at all. here is a list off the top of my head of the components you will need to buy.

1 mother board (mobo)
1 processor to match mother board
RAM must be compatible with mobo
mass storage aka hard drive
a tower or box that fits your mobo form factor

thats pretty much it. mobo's come with built in ethernet, video, and sound. you should consider expanding on these if cost is not an issue, or if you are looking for a specific functionality, like gaming.

it all starts with the mobo tho. figure out what you can afford on the mobo, then multiply that by 5. For instance, if you can spend 250 on a mobo, then consider paying 5 times that much for a complete system. This IMO is about middle of the road as far pound for pound best buy for DIY computers.

Also, this doesn't include things like a nice big 26" monitor, or those sweet sub-woofer dolby 7 surround sound speakers. Not to mention input devices.

You can probably find some off the shelf to compete with prices, but trust me, if you are beginning to ask questions of building it yourself, then that is definitely the way to go. You won't be satisfied with the money you spend, no matter how nice your system, unless you know exactly what went in to it.

If you have specific questions, ask in this thread.

[Acala]

I've used Ubuntu off and on for about a year. If you haven't used it, I really don't think you're going to want it as your primary OS. There are many problems you'll likely run into, especially OS freezes and even problems with installing supported software. If you're just going to be surfing the web and checking email, I think your better bet would be to use Windows and then virtually run Ubuntu using VMware or Virtualbox - or whatever. With Windows NT and above, I can have my PC running for weeks at a time without any problems. With Ubuntu, I may be able to run it for 4-6 hours without something happening where I need to reboot for the computer to be usable again (but this is not the case with all Linux distros. I've had no problems running Mint and some less user-friendly distros). I think your computer would be far more stable if you boot into Windows and then run Ubuntu on a VM.

If you didn't already know, any web-surfing you do on a virtual computer cannot infect your primary PC. So, say you download some self-replicating virus while surfing on your virtual Ubuntu - it cannot infect your Windows OS.



I think we were talking about actually ordering the parts and him assembling them. There are many benefits to building your own PC if you know what you want to do with it and where the bottlenecks will be when you're using the software you want.

So any computer with a recent windows OS can run a virtual linux program. And that virtual linux program can run internet browser software and email software. And it can download and save files? Would only the virtual OS be able to access them?

[newbitech]

So any computer with a recent windows OS can run a virtual linux program. And that virtual linux program can run internet browser software and email software. And it can download and save files? Would only the virtual OS be able to access them?

part of what make virtualization so important is the ability of the virtual OS to have full read write permissions to the host OS file system. So yes, the virtual system will be able to access the file system of the host. depending on your virtualization software package, you may also have the ability to share a file system with a virtual system in a multiplex mode. I have also seen virtualization software that allows parallel virtualized systems share files between each other, such as the case with running a MAC OS as host, and sharing files between a linux virtual and windows virtual without needing to store the file in the MAC system at all.

The possibilities are endless with virtualization. The software has been around for years now, and any modern system (ie the last 5 years at least) will handle current virtualization software.

Its not like you are trying to run an enterprise system right? So, really your limit is your wallet and your appetite to dig into technical specs.

[Acala]

part of what make virtualization so important is the ability of the virtual OS to have full read write permissions to the host OS file system. So yes, the virtual system will be able to access the file system of the host. depending on your virtualization software package, you may also have the ability to share a file system with a virtual system in a multiplex mode. I have also seen virtualization software that allows parallel virtualized systems share files between each other, such as the case with running a MAC OS as host, and sharing files between a linux virtual and windows virtual without needing to store the file in the MAC system at all.

The possibilities are endless with virtualization. The software has been around for years now, and any modern system (ie the last 5 years at least) will handle current virtualization software.

Its not like you are trying to run an enterprise system right? So, really your limit is your wallet and your appetite to dig into technical specs.

How can you download files through the virtual OS and have them available to the host OS without having the host OS at risk from malware (He asks, pretending that he will understand the answer)?

[dannno]

I have a $450 laptop that is 3 years old connected to a 24" monitor with 1080P res and run Ubuntu, I never ever have OS freezes and only have to reboot occasionally after an update..

But ya, honestly if you haven't used linux, although you can find how-tos and instructions for everything online, it might not be a bad idea to stick with windows as your main boot and then run a virtual instance of ubuntu for web browsing and email as everyone else is suggesting..

My question is, what do people here think of installing MacOS instead and running a virtual instance of linux? Are pretty much all games compatible with MacOS these days?

I'm pretty sure it's getting easier to install MacOS on non-mac computers these days, though I've never done it myself my old roommate did it a few times. It's great because Mac hardware is totally overpriced.

I used to hate Macs, but the new OS since it has been unix based is pretty good for media and stuff.. of course that might even defeat the purpose of running linux because you wouldn't have to worry about viruses and whatnot anyway.

[newbitech]

How can you download files through the virtual OS and have them available to the host OS without having the host OS at risk from malware (He asks, pretending that he will understand the answer)?

through file sharing in the file system layer. its not really going to matter what system you are running, if you download malware you are going to get hosed. the reason why non-windows systems are relatively malware free is because of the distribution of systems. people don't write malware for a discreet linux distro. people write malware to exploit the 80% market share that is windows os.

on top of that, most malware is focused on browser exploits, so the same basic rule applies.

here is how your OS gets irreparable damage.

1.) browser is exploited (point of entry)
2.) networking sub-systems are exploited (spreading)
3.) OS subsystems are exploited (the actual payload)
4.) covering tracks (this is where the root kits are installed in the OS kernel)

so, you protect yourself by using a non standard browser first. at this point, chrome is probably your best bet to avoid browser exploits.

next you run a secure network that takes care of things like disabling netbios over tcp/ip. out of the box, winblows doesn't do this.

then you lock down your os by controlling its permissions structure to programs and file system. again, windows fails miserably at this point out of the box.

finally, you run anti virus that focuses on your core system. none of the off the shelf solutions focus on protecting you from root kit and zombie bot style attacks. you need to customize a solution if you are that keen on protecting your core.

otherwise, you run a popular linux distro and climb that learning curve hoping that the distro doesn't become popular enough to be a target for exploitation before you learn how to block malicious software on your own.


Bottom line, step 1 in being secure is building your ow hardware, or at the very least, understanding exactly how your system is designed. Then you move on to understanding the boot process. Then you start getting what the file system is and does. As you progress, you'll learn what you need to keep digging deeper and deeper.

[FunkBuddha]

How can you download files through the virtual OS and have them available to the host OS without having the host OS at risk from malware (He asks, pretending that he will understand the answer)?

Depending on how you setup your VM, you can limit what access the VM has to your host filesystem. I recommend setting upa virtual disk of about 40 GB and not allocating the space. What this does is create a file which wil be your virtual disk. As you write to the virtual file system, the file will grow in size.

If you want to copy the file to your host filesystem, you create a shared folder on the host as well as a user account that only has permissions to read from and write to that shared folded. You can then mount the share in your Linux VM and copy files to and from it without risking the security to your host unless the file you copy is malware of some sort. I'm pretty sure VMWare has an wizardified way to do this and virtualbox probably does too.

Also, keep in mind that just because you run Linux and do all of your browsing and mail reading there doesn't make you 100% secure. Just because there isn't an exploit today doesn't mean there won't be one tomorrow. Keep your VM patched just as you would Windows and be wary of what you download. Patching is actually easier in Ubuntu than it is in Windows because you can update your OS and your all of your applications at the same time!

[FunkBuddha]

Back in the days of Windows 2000 and XP I used to use a VMware lab to reverse engineer malware I found on machines where I work. I sent the FBI knocking on some 14 yr old kid's door in Massachusetts for hacking into about 30 machines where I work and setting up a botnet. They didn't charge him with anything because at that time (around 2001 or so) the damage had to be around $75,000 before they would do anything. I suppose I could've come up with some numbers to get him prosecuted but I didn't have the heart. I was a little hacker once too back in the BBS days.