Angela Merkel says German Multicultural Society Has Failed

[FrankRep]

Angela Merkel says German Multicultural Society Has Failed (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11559451)

Attempts to build a multicultural society in Germany have "utterly failed", Chancellor Angela Merkel says.


http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/49535000/jpg/_49535201_010430871-1.jpg
Angela Merkel said Germany had "kidded itself" multiculturalism was working



BBC News
16 October 2010


In a speech in Potsdam, she said the so-called "multikulti" concept - where people would "live side-by-side" happily - did not work.

Mrs Merkel's comments come amid recent outpourings of strong anti-immigrant feeling from mainstream politicians.

A recent survey showed that more than 30% of Germans believed Germany was "overrun by foreigners".

The study - by the Friedrich Ebert Foundation think-tank - also showed that roughly the same number thought that some 16 million of Germany's immigrants or people with foreign origins had come to the country for the social benefits.
Foreign workers

Mrs Merkel told a gathering of younger members of her conservative Christian Democratic Union (CDU) party on Saturday that at "the beginning of the 60s our country called the foreign workers to come to Germany and now they live in our country... We kidded ourselves a while, we said: 'They won't stay, sometime they will be gone', but this isn't reality.

"And of course, the approach [to build] a multicultural [society] and to live side-by-side and to enjoy each other... has failed, utterly failed."

In her speech, the chancellor specifically referred to recent comments by German President Christian Wulff who said that Islam was "part of Germany" like Christianity and Judaism.

While acknowledging that this was the case, Mrs Merkel stressed that immigrants living in Germany needed to do more to integrate, including learning to speak German.

"Anyone who does not immediately speak German", she said, "is not welcome".

Her comments come a week after she held talks with Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan, in which the two leaders pledged to do more to improve the often poor integration record of Germany's estimated 2.5 million-strong Turkish community.

Earlier this week, Horst Seehofer, the leader of the CDU's Bavarian sister party, CSU, said about integration that it was "obvious that immigrants from different cultures like Turkey and Arab countries, all in all, find it harder".

"'Multikulti' is dead," Mr Seehofer said.

In August, Thilo Sarrazin, a senior official at Germany's central, said that "no immigrant group other than Muslims is so strongly connected with claims on the welfare state and crime". Mr Sarrazin has since resigned.

Such recent strong anti-immigrant feelings from mainstream politicians come amid an anger in Germany about high unemployment, even if the economy is growing faster than those of its rivals, the BBC's Stephen Evans in Berlin says.

Our correspondent adds that there also seems to be a new strident tone in the country, perhaps leading to less reticence about no-go-areas of the past.


SOURCE:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11559451

[teacherone]

While acknowledging that this was the case, Mrs Merkel stressed that immigrants living in Germany needed to do more to integrate, including learning to speak German.

"Anyone who does not immediately speak German", she said, "is not welcome".

lol...german's a bitch to learn let me tell you.

sure... just drop all those cases, and that three gender thing that has no rhyme or reason, those crazy conditionals, ridiculous word order, extreme word lengths, extreme sentence lengths, im-pronounceable umlauts... and maybe you'll have some luck with that immediate german thingy...

come to think of it... you'd have english.

[JamalianTheory]

I kind of agree.

In our country, immigrants should learn to speak English before they come here. It's just common sense. I could name countless times that we've had to have a translator at company functions just so the Mexican workers could understand what was going on. Not only that, if I wanted to communicate with them about what settings to use for a certain mill or machine, I'd have to find a fluent Mexican to translate for me.

Just learn English, immigrants. And most people wouldn't have a problem.

[Cowlesy]

Suddenly the shiny happy people holding hands aren't so shiny when the economy stumbles, eh Ms. Merkel?

Welcome to our world of conservative pessimism. :P

[ItsTime]

Is she going to fire up the gas chambers? This can not end well.

[Cowlesy]

"Anyone who does not immediately speak German", she said, "is not welcome".

Let's try my nostradamus skills. I bet within.....24 hours, she issues a "clarification" and "apology" after being throttled by the PC police for that remark (which is likely a mis-translation).

[FrankRep]

Let's try my nostradamus skills. I bet within.....24 hours, she issues a "clarification" and "apology" after being throttled by the PC police for that remark (which is likely a mis-translation).

It appears even German sites are saying the same thing.

German multiculturalism has 'utterly failed' (http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,6118859,00.html)

Deutsche Welle DE


German-speaking migrants still welcome

In her speech, Merkel stressed that immigrants must learn to speak German in order to be able to compete on the job market. "Anyone who does not immediately speak German is not welcome," she said. "Those who want to take part [in our society] must not only obey our laws, they must also master our language."

Merkel, however, underscored the continued importance of immigration to Germany and the job market, especially highly-skilled migrants, and not just migrants who would place a burden on the country's social system.

[Agorism]

I don't believe government should ever try to enforce a national culture or have laws that control language use etc.

[Austrian Econ Disciple]

And the Welfare State strikes again. *Baddum pssch*

[FrankRep]

Merkel: German Muslims Must Obey German Law, not Sharia Law (http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE69552W20101006)


Reuters
Oct 6, 2010


Chancellor Angela Merkel said on Wednesday Muslims must obey the constitution and not sharia law if they want to live in Germany, which is debating the integration of its 4 million-strong Muslim population.

In the furor following a German central banker's blunt comments about Muslims failing to integrate, moderate leaders including President Christian Wulff have urged Germans to accept that "Islam also belongs in Germany."

The debate comes against a backdrop of U.S. and British concerns over the threat of terrorist attacks by militant Islamists living in Germany, with Berlin toning down such fears.

Merkel faces corresponding discussions inside her Christian Democratic Union (CDU) about whether she is conservative enough, and the center-right leader's latest comments seemed directed at those who think Wulff went too far in appeasing the Muslims.

Wulff, who has a largely ceremonial role, used a speech on Sunday celebrating two decades of German reunification to urge harmonious integration of immigrants who until a decade ago were considered "guest workers" who would eventually return home.

But whereas the media stressed Wulff's comments about Islam, Merkel -- the daughter of a Protestant pastor brought up in East Germany, who leads a predominantly Catholic party -- said Wulff had emphasized Germany's "Christian roots and its Jewish roots."

German Christian Democrats often cite shared Judeo-Christian values rooted in the early history of Christianity because of sensitivities about the Holocaust, when the Nazis murdered six million Jews during World War Two.

"Now we obviously also have Muslims in Germany. But it's important in regard to Islam that the values represented by Islam must correspond with our constitution," said Merkel.

"What applies here is the constitution, not sharia."

Merkel said Germany needed imams "educated in Germany and who have their social roots here" and concluded: "Our culture is based on Christian and Jewish values and has been for hundreds of years, not to say thousands."

Opinion polls suggest many Germans sympathize with the views of an outspoken member of Germany's Bundesbank who, in speeches and a book, accused Muslims of sponging off welfare, refusing to integrate and achieving poor levels of education.

Thilo Sarrazin, who also offended Jews with comments about genetics, was forced to quit the central bank. Merkel has tried to accommodate both sides of the debate, saying police should not be afraid of entering immigrant neighborhoods but also that Germans must accept mosques becoming part of their landscape.


SOURCE:
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE69552W20101006

[FrankRep]

In America:

CBS News to America: Don't Worry about Sharia Law (http://www.thenewamerican.com/index.php/culture/37-history/4881-cbs-news-to-america-dont-worry-about-sharia-law)


CBS News maintains that the Islamic Sharia law imposed by some Muslims is no threat to America, but the facts do not favor such an assessment. By James Heiser

States Take Preemptive Strike Against Sharia Law (http://www.thenewamerican.com/index.php/usnews/politics/4342-states-take-preemptive-strike-against-shariah)


Wary of the increasing influence of Sharia law and its international adherents, lawmakers in several states are taking preemptive measures to protect their jurisprudence and infrastructure from what they see as the frightening ascendancy of a pernicious dogma. by Joe Wolverton II"


Son of Hamas co-founder Warns the US: Muslims Want 'Global Islamic State'; US Fooled (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=258525)


As the son of a Hamas co-founder who became a Christian, a spy for Israel and a consultant to the Holy Land Foundation terror-finance trial, Mosab Hassan Yousef offers a rare perspective on the Egypt-based Muslim Brotherhood – at once the spawn of nearly every major Islamic terrorist group and of "mainstream" operatives in the U.S. such as the Council on American-Islamic Relations.


Ayaan Hirsi Ali: Islam incompatible with Libertarian ideals (http://www.charlotteconservative.com/index.php/2010/04/ayaan-hirsi-ali-islam-incompatible-with-libertarian-ideals/)


The title of her speech was "Refuse to be Silenced." Hirsi is a victim of Islamic violence, and threats. First, as a young girl, she was forced to undergo female circumcision.

[Anti Federalist]

Merkel says German multicultural society has failed

16 October 2010

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11559451

Attempts to build a multicultural society in Germany have "utterly failed", Chancellor Angela Merkel says.

In a speech in Potsdam, she said the so-called "multikulti" concept - where people would "live side-by-side" happily - did not work.

Mrs Merkel's comments come amid recent outpourings of strong anti-immigrant feeling from mainstream politicians.

A recent survey showed that more than 30% of Germans believed Germany was "overrun by foreigners".

[FrankRep]

...

[Cowlesy]

Merged the three multiculture/Merkel threads leaving redirects.

[Anti Federalist]

Merged the three multiculture/Merkel threads leaving redirects.

Ugh, that's what I get for starting new threads when I'm tired.

I hang my head in posting shame...

[amy31416]

What I take away from this is that any immigrant group who is overly "represented" in the welfare recipient category will foster resentment, for obvious reasons. That goes for these Muslims in Germany, the Orthodox Jews in New York and Israel, and perhaps the Mexicans in the Southern part of the US.

Ending the stupidity in welfare programs would go a long way towards resolving this issue. Gov't can do it, and they choose not to...instead they rile up racist sentiment.

Nobody likes a leech. Their race, religion and other differences are secondary.

[ClayTrainor]

Ending the stupidity in welfare programs would go a long way towards resolving this issue. Gov't can do it, and they choose not to...instead they rile up racist sentiment.

Nobody likes a leech. Their race, religion and other differences are secondary.

The government likes a leech. They buy moral support for welfare programs from the leeches while in turn the anti-immigrant people advocate more government power to "stop the leeches". Government grows no matter what. Fool proof!

[amy31416]

The government likes a leech. They buy moral support for welfare programs from the leeches while in turn the anti-immigrant people advocate more government power to "stop the leeches". Government grows no matter what. Fool proof!

I duly stand corrected. You're absolutely right.

[BamaAla]

Interesting dynamics in European countries. England is the mother of multiculturalism and the people seem to be getting on fine with it. Meanwhile, multiculturalism has failed in Sweden and France and has been replaced by a policy of assimilation. Apparently we can add Germany to that list now as well.

[Knightskye]

Hitler had a problem with Jews assimilating into German society.

[HOLLYWOOD]

The East German Communist has to blame her failed game-plan on something...

Socialist DumbAsses of Deutschland

[Carl Corey]

Hitler had a problem with Jews assimilating into German society.
Muslims will gain a majority in Germany sooner or later, so it's an entirely different matter. The real issue has become whether to kick Muslims out, transform Islam to something compatible with Western democracy, or roll over and let them be in charge.

At this stage of the game it'd make sense to make English our official language, and only allow immigrants who can pass a basic written English test. Not good for low IQ immigrants aspiring unschooled labor and handouts, much better for the USA and its citizens, but who gives a damn about those.

[Philhelm]

Hitler had a problem with Jews assimilating into German society.

I invoke Godwin.

[AuH20]

The irrevocable constants of human nature destroy another feel-good pipedream. What a shock I tell you. :D If you don't encourage the philosophy of E Pluribus Unum you get distrust and resentment in spades. Add the envy factor that's propagated by the welfare state and the social situation becomes further inflamed.

[Fozz]

Well I'm glad the US isn't as nativist as those Europeans.

[Fozz]

Muslims will gain a majority in Germany sooner or later, so it's an entirely different matter. The real issue has become whether to kick Muslims out, transform Islam to something compatible with Western democracy, or roll over and let them be in charge.


Nonsense.

[Bman]

I invoke Godwin.

I'm not so sure you can invoke Godwin when talking about Germany. Kind of seems reasonable to bring up Hitler when talking in regards to Germany.

[low preference guy]

I'm not so sure you can invoke Godwin when talking about Germany. Kind of seems reasonable to bring up Hitler when talking in regards to Germany.

I think the whole Godwin thing is ridiculous. It just stifles debate.

[AuH20]

It appears even German sites are saying the same thing.

German multiculturalism has 'utterly failed' (http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,6118859,00.html)

Deutsche Welle DE


German-speaking migrants still welcome

In her speech, Merkel stressed that immigrants must learn to speak German in order to be able to compete on the job market. "Anyone who does not immediately speak German is not welcome," she said. "Those who want to take part [in our society] must not only obey our laws, they must also master our language."

Merkel, however, underscored the continued importance of immigration to Germany and the job market, especially highly-skilled migrants, and not just migrants who would place a burden on the country's social system.

Is she really asking them to obey their laws and learn their language in her country? Who does she think she is? Germany belongs to the world. What a tyrant!! Heinrich Himmler would be proud. ;):D

[Bman]

I think the whole Godwin thing is ridiculous. It just stifles debate.

Agreed.

[libertarian4321]

At this stage of the game it'd make sense to make English our official language, and only allow immigrants who can pass a basic written English test. Not good for low IQ immigrants aspiring unschooled labor and handouts, much better for the USA and its citizens, but who gives a damn about those.

I don't know how high your IQ is, but I'm guessing it's not nearly as high as that of immigrant (and non-English speaker) Albert Einstein.

His English was very limited when he arrived, and he conducted business in German. His speeches and writings had to be translated.

He never became particularly fluent in English. If you listen to speeches he made after WW2, after more than a decade in the USA, you can barely understand him.

BTW, I've worked with many brilliant engineers and scientists who came to this country speaking little or no English and became very productive citizens. They worked hard to learn the language well enough so that they can get along, but many are still far from fluent (note: you don't have to be an eloquent speaker of the English language to make contributions in the fields of science, medicine, engineering, mathematics, and the like),

I'd wager that all of them have contributed far more to this country than you have.

[AuH20]

I don't know how high your IQ is, but I'm guessing it's not nearly as high as that of immigrant (and non-English speaker) Albert Einstein.

Despite living in the US for decades, his English was very limited, and he conducted business in German. His speeches and writings had to be translated.

BTW, I've worked with many brilliant engineers and scientists who came to this country speaking little or no English and became very productive citizens. They worked hard to learn the language well enough so that they can get along, but many are still far from fluent (note: you don't have to be an eloquent speaker of the English language to make contributions in the fields of science, medicine, engineering, mathematics, and the like),

I'd wager that all of them have contributed far more to this country than you have.

I'm sure the lettuce pickers of this nation, many of who are illiterate in their own language, are feverishly devising the solution to a perfect semiconductor in their off-hours.

[low preference guy]

I'm sure the lettuce pickers of this nation, many of who are illiterate in their own language, are feverishly devising the solution to a perfect semiconductor in their off-hours.

illogical response. unfortunately had to give -rep.

[AuH20]

illogical response. unfortunately had to give -rep.

Literacy is an obvious prerequisite for educational as well as personal growth. Illegal aliens have an illiteracy rate 2.5 times that of American citizens. A fair portion cannot even read in their own native language. I thought this was an objectivist forum? If an object resembling a sailboat possesses the characteristics of a sailboat, we call it a sailboat.

[AuH20]

Muslims will gain a majority in Germany sooner or later, so it's an entirely different matter. The real issue has become whether to kick Muslims out, transform Islam to something compatible with Western democracy, or roll over and let them be in charge.

At this stage of the game it'd make sense to make English our official language, and only allow immigrants who can pass a basic written English test. Not good for low IQ immigrants aspiring unschooled labor and handouts, much better for the USA and its citizens, but who gives a damn about those.

I don't think the administering of an english proficiency test is the solution nor would I call it fair to individuals trapped in socioeconomic hells like Mexico. What needs to be done is to either establish an immigration moratorium or (b) completely cut off sustenance benefits to illegal aliens, so they cannot hang around for reasons of convenience. This purge of entitlements would act as a filter to eliminate those who truly do not want to be part of the nation.

[libertarian4321]

I'm sure the lettuce pickers of this nation, many of who are illiterate in their own language, are feverishly devising the solution to a perfect semiconductor in their off-hours.

Do you really think all immigrants are "illiterate lettuce pickers?"

Try this. Pick ANY of the top 20 engineering or science schools in this country and just hang out for a while- you will notice that they are full of foreign students (or, at least, the engineering and science departments are- if it's a broad based university, you'll find many Americans- usually taking the easy curriculum's), many of whom speak very poor English, and many of whom stay and become very productive citizens. I know this from personal experience at RPI and MIT, but you'll see the same at Stanford, Cornell, Cal Tech, Hopkins, Berkeley etc.

My wife, who emigrated to this country speaking limited English, is a research scientist who has half a dozen patents and has developed numerous protocols in her field.

I'm pretty sure this country is better off for having her, rather than having her work for the Chinese, despite her initial lack of proficiency in English.

We need to not only welcome, but ENCOURAGE people like her to emigrate to the USA.

I would also note that I had some carpenters working on my house today. Both were Hispanic, one spoke decent English, the other barely spoke a word of English (btw, I didn't ask if they were "illegal" and they didn't tell). They did great work despite their lack of proficiency in English.

So they didn't speak English- so what? Many jobs- whether they be mathematician or carpenter, engineer or mason, don't require that one be able to produce an eloquent speech in English. Why should we keep these people out?

BTW, I'll bet the ancestors of many of you came to this country no speaking English. One side of my family came from eastern Europe in the last century speaking no English, but they became productive citizens, and their children became even more productive. Those of us that are 3rd generation are almost all well educated professionals- 2 engineers, 2 teachers, a military officer, a detective, a scientist, an accountant, a pilot, and one chef (okay, so he didn't go to college, but 9 out of 10 ain't bad, and he's a very good chef).

Would the USA have been better off if my non-English speaking grandmother and grandfather had stayed in the Ukraine? I doubt it.

Frankly, I find the "you must speak English first" idea to be moronic, at best.

[AuH20]

Do you really think all immigrants are "illiterate lettuce pickers?"

Try this. Pick ANY of the top 20 engineering or science schools in this country and just hang out for a while- you will notice that they are full of foreign students (or, at least, the engineering and science departments are- if it's a broad based university, you'll find many Americans- usually taking the easy curriculum's), many of whom speak very poor English, and many of whom stay and become very productive citizens. I know this from personal experience at RPI and MIT, but you'll see the same at Stanford, Cornell, Cal Tech, Hopkins, Berkeley etc.

My wife, who emigrated to this country speaking limited English, is a research scientist who has half a dozen patents and has developed numerous protocols in her field.

I'm pretty sure this country is better off for having her, rather than having her work for the Chinese, despite her initial lack of proficiency in English.

We need to not only welcome, but ENCOURAGE people like her to emigrate to the USA.

I would also note that I had some carpenters working on my house today. Both were Hispanic, one spoke decent English, the other barely spoke a word of English (btw, I didn't ask if they were "illegal" and they didn't tell). They did great work despite their lack of proficiency in English.

So they didn't speak English- so what? Many jobs- whether they be mathematician or carpenter, engineer or mason, don't require that one be able to produce an eloquent speech in English. Why should we keep these people out?

BTW, I'll bet the ancestors of many of you came to this country no speaking English. One side of my family came from eastern Europe in the last century speaking no English, but they became productive citizens, and their children became even more productive. Those of us that are 3rd generation are almost all well educated professionals- 2 engineers, 2 teachers, a military officer, a detective, a scientist, an accountant, a pilot, and one chef (okay, so he didn't go to college, but 9 out of 10 ain't bad, and he's a very good chef).

Would the USA have been better off if my non-English speaking grandmother and grandfather had stayed in the Ukraine? I doubt it.

Frankly, I find the "you must speak English first" idea to be moronic, at best.

I never insinuated that, but it's fairly obvious that meek microbiology scientists from India aren't drawing the ire of the natives. The plutocrats in this nation are grooming a permanent slave class, all without enduring the negative consequences of such a devious experiment.

[FrankRep]

I'm sure the lettuce pickers of this nation, many of who are illiterate in their own language, are feverishly devising the solution to a perfect semiconductor in their off-hours.


Do you really think all immigrants are "illiterate lettuce pickers?"

Strawman, libertarian4321.

No one said "all immigrants." You're making stuff up.

[johngr]

duplicate post.

[johngr]

lol...german's a bitch to learn let me tell you.

sure... just drop all those cases, and that three gender thing that has no rhyme or reason, those crazy conditionals, ridiculous word order, extreme word lengths, extreme sentence lengths, im-pronounceable umlauts... and maybe you'll have some luck with that immediate german thingy...

come to think of it... you'd have english.

I quietly tiptoed into my business German class five minutes late, sat at my desk and whispered to the student beside me, asking if I had missed anything. He whispered back, "not really, he hasn't gotten to the verb yet".

[johngr]

I'm not so sure you can invoke Godwin when talking about Germany. Kind of seems reasonable to bring up Hitler when talking in regards to Germany.

It is a slippery-slope argumentum ad Hitlerum fallacy. Merkel said nothing about firing up the ovens or Zyklon B as a solution. Jiust that the immigrants be proficient in German.

[johngr]

I don't know how high your IQ is, but I'm guessing it's not nearly as high as that of immigrant (and non-English speaker) Albert Einstein.

His English was very limited when he arrived, and he conducted business in German. His speeches and writings had to be translated.

He never became particularly fluent in English. If you listen to speeches he made after WW2, after more than a decade in the USA, you can barely understand him.

BTW, I've worked with many brilliant engineers and scientists who came to this country speaking little or no English and became very productive citizens. They worked hard to learn the language well enough so that they can get along, but many are still far from fluent (note: you don't have to be an eloquent speaker of the English language to make contributions in the fields of science, medicine, engineering, mathematics, and the like),

I'd wager that all of them have contributed far more to this country than you have.

My gardener speaks hardly a word of Swedish but he is a genius -- as are all Third World immigrants to the West -- just like Einstein. They just need some income redistribution, affirmative action, the free association and speech of their hosts curbed, etc. to overcome their historical disadvantagedness.

[Danke]

They just need some income redistribution, affirmative action, the free association and speech of their hosts curbed, etc. to overcome their historical disadvantagedness.

That's beautiful!

:D

[angelatc]

In America:

CBS News to America: Don't Worry about Sharia Law (http://www.thenewamerican.com/index.php/culture/37-history/4881-cbs-news-to-america-dont-worry-about-sharia-law)


CBS News maintains that the Islamic Sharia law imposed by some Muslims is no threat to America, but the facts do not favor such an assessment. By James Heiser

States Take Preemptive Strike Against Sharia Law (http://www.thenewamerican.com/index.php/usnews/politics/4342-states-take-preemptive-strike-against-shariah)


Wary of the increasing influence of Sharia law and its international adherents, lawmakers in several states are taking preemptive measures to protect their jurisprudence and infrastructure from what they see as the frightening ascendancy of a pernicious dogma. by Joe Wolverton II"


Son of Hamas co-founder Warns the US: Muslims Want 'Global Islamic State'; US Fooled (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=258525)


As the son of a Hamas co-founder who became a Christian, a spy for Israel and a consultant to the Holy Land Foundation terror-finance trial, Mosab Hassan Yousef offers a rare perspective on the Egypt-based Muslim Brotherhood – at once the spawn of nearly every major Islamic terrorist group and of "mainstream" operatives in the U.S. such as the Council on American-Islamic Relations.


Ayaan Hirsi Ali: Islam incompatible with Libertarian ideals (http://www.charlotteconservative.com/index.php/2010/04/ayaan-hirsi-ali-islam-incompatible-with-libertarian-ideals/)


The title of her speech was "Refuse to be Silenced." Hirsi is a victim of Islamic violence, and threats. First, as a young girl, she was forced to undergo female circumcision.

We get it. You're an Islamaphobe.

[angelatc]

What I take away from this is that any immigrant group who is overly "represented" in the welfare recipient category will foster resentment, for obvious reasons. That goes for these Muslims in Germany, the Orthodox Jews in New York and Israel, and perhaps the Mexicans in the Southern part of the US.

Ending the stupidity in welfare programs would go a long way towards resolving this issue. Gov't can do it, and they choose not to...instead they rile up racist sentiment.

Nobody likes a leech. Their race, religion and other differences are secondary.

When I was in Germany, before Islamphobia, the cab driver and out host both mentioned that the Protestants who came back from East Germany were put up on public housing, getting government help, etc etc etc. Basically putting them in their own neighborhoods, giving them no incentives to engage in the society around them. This has been brewing for a while. Maybe they decided to set aside their differences and hate on the Muslims.

[Vessol]

This is a problem of the welfare state, not immigration and different cultures.

Immigrants always have been and always will be easy scapegoats for the politicians to point at when they notice that they themselves fuck up. This is CONSTANTLY repeated throughout history. Do not fall for this hyped up Statist garbage again.

Anyone ever heard of the Asiatic Vespers? During his rise to power, Mithridates VI(one of my most favorite and most unknown leaders of ancient times) ordered the murdering of up to 80,000 Romans and Latins living within his kingdom, using popular discontent amongst the populace there in order to establish his rule.

As an added plus, many of those killed were merchants or wealthy traders which helped establish his army and fight in the Mithridatic wars against Rome.

I'd also like to know who has "rights" to a homeland. Many modern day Germans blood does not run purely throughout those lands. Over many thousands of years many peoples have moved across and settled those lands. So who can lay claim to what culture has a "right to the land".

[johngr]

This is a problem of the welfare state, not immigration and different cultures.

Immigrants always have been and always will be easy scapegoats for the politicians to point at when they notice that they themselves fuck up. This is CONSTANTLY repeated throughout history. Do not fall for this hyped up Statist garbage again.

Anyone ever heard of the Asiatic Vespers? During his rise to power, Mithridates VI(one of my most favorite and most unknown leaders of ancient times) ordered the murdering of up to 80,000 Romans and Latins living within his kingdom, using popular discontent amongst the populace there in order to establish his rule.

As an added plus, many of those killed were merchants or wealthy traders which helped establish his army and fight in the Mithridatic wars against Rome.

I'd also like to know who has "rights" to a homeland. Many modern day Germans blood does not run purely throughout those lands. Over many thousands of years many peoples have moved across and settled those lands. So who can lay claim to what culture has a "right to the land".

There are enormous social costs associated with letting any Third-Worlder with one-way airfare enter ones nation. If enough Somalians, for example, come in, your neighbourhoods start looking, feeling, sounding like Somalia with no-go areas for natives. Who pays for ward, incarceration, property loss and graffiti clean-up costs?

And what about reciprocation? It's next to impossible for a non-Indian to become a naturalised Indian citizen or permanent residence. Ditto, for Japan, Israel and a host of other non-Western countries. Why is it only the West that's supposed to open its doors to the world?

[Vessol]

There are enormous social costs associated with letting any Third-Worlder with one-way airfare enter ones nation. If enough Somalians, for example, come in, your neighbourhoods start looking, feeling, sounding like Somalia with no-go areas for natives. Who pays for ward, incarceration, property loss and graffiti clean-up costs?

And what about reciprocation? It's next to impossible for a non-Indian to become a naturalised Indian citizen or permanent residence. Ditto, for Japan, Israel and a host of other non-Western countries. Why is it only the West that's supposed to open its doors to the world?

Tyranny is not the answer for tyranny. Even if it is a perceived lesser tyranny.

[Lord Xar]

Tyranny is not the answer for tyranny. Even if it is a perceived lesser tyranny.

I disagree. But instead of offering a strawman argument, tell us your solution.

[Lord Xar]

Nonsense.

Why do you say that? America is a perfect example of this very thing happening. In about two generations, a group of people that trailed black americans in population will be the majority. Because of massive legal and illegal immigration, increased birth rates - the very thing the poster suggested about Germans is infact, gonna happen here. So, it is clearly not "nonsense".

[johngr]

Germans are awakening. Thilo Sarrazin’s book, ‘Germany is doing herself in’, is No.1 on the Spiegel bestseller list, with 12 million readers. Merkel realises that the German people have had it with the multi-kult and is just pandering to them. I hope they have enough sense to realise this, throw her party out and vote for a real nationalist party, instead.

[furface]

In her speech, the chancellor specifically referred to recent comments by German President Christian Wulff who said that Islam was "part of Germany" like Christianity and Judaism.

Are you joking? Muslims account for 3.7% of the German population. Jews account for about .2%. It's more reasonable to compare the Jewish population to Rastafarians.

As far as I can tell they're right about Muslims getting on benefits and just hanging, though. I know a Muslim couple, 2 civil engineers, who moved to Germany. Neither has worked in the last couple of years. They claim Germany won't recognize their engineering degrees, but I'm guessing they haven't even tried to fix it.

All their children are becoming doctors and engineers, so Germany shouldn't complain. They're getting a good deal from a demographic stand point. The only people having babies in Western Europe are Muslims and East European immigrants. Figure it out people. The future belongs to people who procreate.

A German society with a minority professional class that the rest of society distrusts sounds strangely familiar, though.

[Cowlesy]

When traveling to a foreign nation even for a limited period of time, I research the basic language skills and the customs/traditions so that I respect what the people of that nation think is important culturally. This progressive idea of going somewhere and pushing my values on others because I don't like their culture/traditions is ridiculous. Maybe it was just more necessary to assimilate to your home-nation's culture prior to the advent of the Welfare State. If you didn't do so, life would be difficult for you.

Neoconservatives love the idea that the United States is a "prospect nation." Anyone who spouts a few platitudes from the Constitution while wading across the Rio Grande is by definition an American. That being said, I understand why open borders libertarians dislike the idea of border control, especially since the word "nation" is rooted in the Latin 'nascere' (to be born) which implies some level of blood link in compatriots. The more unbridled immigration we have, the faster you can bring about the destruction of the nation-state concept and we can all live hand-in-hand in libertopia. Every Yemeni dirt farmer who believes in the right of a free press and the removal of monarchial shackles is just as American as a fifteenth generation New Hampshire'ite whose ancestors fought in the American Revolution.

I welcome immigrants of any stripe who come to America, work hard and wish to assimilate into our culture. Those who show up harboring contempt, not wanting to embrace the culture and traditions, and leech off the welfare state? Go home.

And in deference to my libertarian friends who will screech and howl at this post, if we didn't have the welfare state, I would be much more open to your ideas. As long as our government imports third world 'refugees' who laugh at us for giving them all this free stuff as we try and prove we're "cool like that," I will continue to curse Ted Kennedy for the 1965 Immigration Act.

[Austrian Econ Disciple]

Germans are awakening. Thilo Sarrazin’s book, ‘Germany is doing herself in’, is No.1 on the Spiegel bestseller list, with 12 million readers. Merkel realises that the German people have had it with the multi-kult and is just pandering to them. I hope they have enough sense to realise this, throw her party out and vote for a real nationalist party, instead.

Like they did in 1932 and 1933? :rolleyes:

[Cowlesy]

Germans are awakening. Thilo Sarrazin’s book, ‘Germany is doing herself in’, is No.1 on the Spiegel bestseller list, with 12 million readers. Merkel realises that the German people have had it with the multi-kult and is just pandering to them. I hope they have enough sense to realise this, throw her party out and vote for a real nationalist party, instead.

Working Germans are rightly pissed off. They're getting double-whammy'd as Germany is the pre-dominant funder of the Southern European bailouts (Greece).

All in the name of the cosmopolitan European Community devised by the European Union.

[furface]

Working Germans are rightly pissed off. They're getting double-whammy'd as Germany is the pre-dominant funder of the Southern European bailouts (Greece).

I would claim Germany benefits the most from the Eurozone arrangement. They get to export their goods to markets that would be unavailable to them if everybody had their own currency. It's similar to the problem with China pegging its currency to the dollar.

Countries like Greece and Spain are suckers for agreeing to it. Turkey seems to be finally realizing the idea doesn't suit their interests.

The fashion of the day in currency markets is for countries to try to sink their currency. The US has finally realized it suits US interests. Hopefully governments will wake up to the fact that a single world currency is not a good idea.

[ClayTrainor]

I disagree. But instead of offering a strawman argument, tell us your solution.

Wow, so you openly admit that You think more tyranny is the answer to tyranny? Holy shit!!!

[johngr]

Wow, so you openly admit that You think more tyranny is the answer to tyranny? Holy shit!!!

I think his disagreement is along the lines of a disagreement with the question, "do you think it's a good thing that you stopped beating your wife?"

[johngr]

Like they did in 1932 and 1933? :rolleyes:

As the wheels come off the unsustainable multi-kulti project, I predict that a majority of Europe will turn to nationalist parties, as Holland, Switzerland, Denmark, Hungary, Austria and Italy already have made major strides to doing, where in many of those countries such parties have a majority or plurality in Parliament and as is indicated by the unpredicted and unprecedented success of Sverigedemokraterna in Sweden, where they are now in the kingmaker position.

[BamaAla]

As the wheels come off the unsustainable multi-kulti project, I predict that a majority of Europe will turn to nationalist parties, as Holland, Switzerland, Denmark, Hungary, Austria and Italy already have made major strides to doing, where in many of those countries such parties have a majority or plurality in Parliament and as is indicated by the unpredicted and unprecedented success of Sverigedemokraterna in Sweden, where they are now in the kingmaker position.

The party in Sweden is an interesting bit. I did a short semester in Sweden in the Summer of '09, and you could feel the tension rising. Americans would be smart to look at Sweden as an example if for no more reason than relative population; although, I think the culture (lagom in particular) could skew that a little.

[Stary Hickory]

It's time FOURTH REICH!

[johngr]

It's time FOURTH REICH!

http://www.spiegel.de/img/0,1020,897706,00.jpg

[GreenCardSeeker]

And to think Merkel was as late as back in 2007 as president of the European Council pushing for the establishment of an agency to monitor "hate speech" offenders all across the EU - keeping tabs on where convicted persons traveled and such. I guess she must have come to understand that such elitism might result in lost elections and is keeping a lower profile on that now.

[BlackTerrel]

The study - by the Friedrich Ebert Foundation think-tank - also showed that roughly the same number thought that some 16 million of Germany's immigrants or people with foreign origins had come to the country for the social benefits.

Wait a minute. So you're telling me you have people in countries where there is barely enough food to eat and no medical care to speak of and you tell that they can come to Germany and do nothing and collect paychecks, food, and free medical care - some of those people end up taking advantage of that system???

Shocker...

[LibertyEagle]

Wait a minute. So you're telling me you have people in countries where there is barely enough food to eat and no medical care to speak of and you tell that they can come to Germany and do nothing and collect paychecks, food, and free medical care - some of those people end up taking advantage of that system???

Shocker...

The shocker is that people are still so stupid as to allow such freeloaders into their countries. Political correctness at its finest.

[silentshout]

I find this frightening.

[AuH20]

The shocker is that people are still so stupid as to allow such freeloaders into their countries. Political correctness at its finest.

Ask the native americans how the policy of open borders worked out? :D They were essentially wiped out.

[LibertyEagle]

I find this frightening.

Why?

Multiculturalism is a huge FAIL.

What I find frightening is that young people are being taught that this multiculturalism is a good thing, having a shared language so a country's people can communicate is racist or some such piddle, the UN is all peaches and cream, it's our business to go "help" all the nations of the world and a country minding its own business and caring about its own well-being is somehow selfish and unenlightened.

It's all bs.

[LibertyEagle]

Ask the native americans how the policy of open borders worked out? :D They were essentially wiped out.

Yup.

[LibertyEagle]

Wow, so you openly admit that You think more tyranny is the answer to tyranny? Holy shit!!!

He was replying to Vessol's comment about johngr's post.

Did you even read it, or did you see an opportunity for a "GOTCHA", even though you were totally misconstruing Lord Xar's comment?

Isn't this what you refer to as intellectual dishonesty?

[Fozz]

Why?

Multiculturalism is a huge FAIL.

What I find frightening is that young people are being taught that this multiculturalism is a good thing, having a shared language so a country's people can communicate is racist or some such piddle, the UN is all peaches and cream, it's our business to go "help" all the nations of the world and a country minding its own business and caring about its own well-being is somehow selfish and unenlightened.

It's all bs.

This kind of attitude may not be overtly racist, but the idea that multiculturalism is bad leads to the infestation of nativism, xenophobia, and ultimately racism.

[LibertyEagle]

This kind of attitude may not be overtly racist, but the idea that multiculturalism is bad leads to the infestation of nativism, xenophobia, and ultimately racism.

lolololol

Any and all nations have no obligation whatsoever to let any foreigner into their country. You can add whatever political correctness bullshit on to it that you want to. It doesn't make your claim true. But, it does sound like the same crap that the ADL pulls.

Where did you come up with this idea, anyway? Did you learn it in school?

[FrankRep]

This kind of attitude may not be overtly racist, but the idea that multiculturalism is bad leads to the infestation of nativism, xenophobia, and ultimately racism.
Your accusations of racism, bigotry, and xenophobia are getting old. Besides Merkel wants a Melting Pot Society, not a Multicultural Society,

[Fozz]

Your accusations of racism, bigotry, and xenophobia are getting old. Besides Merkel wants a Melting Pot Society, not a Multicultural Society,

Not really racism, more like nativism. There is no reason for any ethnic minority to be ostracized, particularly in the despicable way that Tom Tancredo does it. The idea of legislating culture will without doubt lead to virulent racism and even persecution, and it is against the principles of freedom.

I support liberty, but I do not support the ethno-centric attitudes of some of you.

[Cowlesy]

Not really racism, more like nativism. There is no reason for any ethnic minority to be ostracized, particularly in the despicable way that Tom Tancredo does it. The idea of legislating culture will without doubt lead to virulent racism and even persecution, and it is against the principles of freedom.

I support liberty, but I do not support the ethno-centric attitudes of some of you.

And what do you think is exactly happening right now? We already have legislated multiculturalism (ie the Immigration Act of 1965 and pretty every other sunshine and lollipop government program like affirmative action) and sure enough, it's going to make things worse.

[Fozz]

And what do you think is exactly happening right now? We already have legislated multiculturalism (ie the Immigration Act of 1965 and pretty every other sunshine and lollipop government program like affirmative action) and sure enough, it's going to make things worse.

I do not support affirmative action.

[FrankRep]

I support liberty, but I do not support the ethno-centric attitudes of some of you.

A Melting Pot Society is not ethno-centric. Merkel wants people to learn the German language and obey German Law, which is not ethno-centric.

[Fozz]

A Melting Pot Society is not ethno-centric. Merkel wants people to learn the German language and obey German Law, which is not ethno-centric.

That's fine, but I get irritated when people on this board say that multiculturalism is a failure, and other crap like that. And European countries have resorted to burka bans and a minaret ban in Switzerland.

[Cowlesy]

That's fine, but I get irritated when people on this board say that multiculturalism is a failure, and other crap like that. And European countries have resorted to burka bans and a minaret ban in Switzerland.

Well Fozz this isn't DemocraticUnderground or Huffington Post, so chances are the conservatives and even a few conservative libertarians are going to condemn the doctrine of multiculturalism for what it is, and that is utter nonsense.

What opponents of conservatives like to do is say, "Well that's nativist, xenophobic or racist." Again, more utter nonsense. All of a sudden every X/Y/Z Pride Parade is now racist because it's celebrating an ethnicity? Pure fallacy.

Conservatives get pissed off when bureaucratic busy-bodies decide that we need to force the Blacks and Orthodox Jews of Brooklyn to be best-friends, all in the name of multiculturalism or "diversity." Groups will always have their pockets of culture, and instead of trying to force them to mix, let them be, and when they start trying to change other cultures by using the force of the State, push back.

[FrankRep]

That's fine, but I get irritated when people on this board say that multiculturalism is a failure, and other crap like that. And European countries have resorted to burka bans and a minaret ban in Switzerland.

The Ayn Rand Institute has a different view. They say "Diversity" and "Multiculturalism" actually... Create ... Racism. Therefore, Multiculturalism will never work; it only leads to conflict and balkanization (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balkanization).



Advocates of "diversity" are true racists in the basic meaning of that term: they see the world through colored lenses, colored by race and gender. To the multiculturalist, race is what counts—for values, for thinking, for human identity in general. No wonder racism is increasing: colorblindness is now considered evil, if not impossible. No wonder people don't treat each other as individuals: to the multiculturalist, they aren't.


Diversity and Multiculturalism: The New Racism
http://www.aynrand.org/site/PageServer?pagename=objectivism_diversity

[low preference guy]

The Ayn Rand Institute has a different view. They say "Diversity" and "Multiculturalism" actually... Create ... Racism. Therefore, Multiculturalism will never work; it only leads to conflict and balkanization (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balkanization).



Advocates of "diversity" are true racists in the basic meaning of that term: they see the world through colored lenses, colored by race and gender. To the multiculturalist, race is what counts—for values, for thinking, for human identity in general. No wonder racism is increasing: colorblindness is now considered evil, if not impossible. No wonder people don't treat each other as individuals: to the multiculturalist, they aren't.


Diversity and Multiculturalism: The New Racism
http://www.aynrand.org/site/PageServer?pagename=objectivism_diversity

Like Liberty Eagle would say (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?p=2928314#post2928314).... but that point of view is based on Ayn Rand's hatred of God!!!!!!!!! AHHHHH!!!!! The Bible!!!1!1!!


:D

[Fozz]

The Ayn Rand Institute has a different view. They say "Diversity" and "Multiculturalism" actually... Create ... Racism. Therefore, Multiculturalism will never work; it only leads to conflict and balkanization (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balkanization).



Advocates of "diversity" are true racists in the basic meaning of that term: they see the world through colored lenses, colored by race and gender. To the multiculturalist, race is what counts—for values, for thinking, for human identity in general. No wonder racism is increasing: colorblindness is now considered evil, if not impossible. No wonder people don't treat each other as individuals: to the multiculturalist, they aren't.


Diversity and Multiculturalism: The New Racism
http://www.aynrand.org/site/PageServer?pagename=objectivism_diversity
America has been multicultural and very successful since the late 19th century. There is no need for the presence of multiple ethnicities to lead to Balkanization. Somehow Europe fails to assimilate their immigrants, but that is their problem, not to be a blanket indictment against diversity.

And as for your link to the Ayn Rand Institute, these are the same people who advocate nuking most of the Middle East.
http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig5/raimondo1.html

Objectivism is a dumb ideology.

[Vessol]

I disagree. But instead of offering a strawman argument, tell us your solution.

The answer of using lesser tyranny because other countries commit tyranny is akin to forcing all rapists to use condoms when they rape people, but not stopping them from raping people.

Rape is bad. Tyranny is bad.

And how do I offer a strawman argument? He directly compares India and Japan to the United States, saying that they have nativist immigration policies and why does the West not do that? I am not misrepresenting his argument in the least.

Here's the kicker though. The State loves immigrants for one primary reason. Because of the nativist crowd it is so incredibly easy to gain their political support simply by allowing a large amount of foreigners in. This whole issue is purposefully manufactured in order to win support from the people for more power given to the State.

[low preference guy]

And as for your link to the Ayn Rand Institute, these are the same people who advocate nuking most of the Middle East.
http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig5/raimondo1.html

Objectivism is a dumb ideology.

why don't you attack the argument of the article instead of resorting to an ad hominem attack? you're the one who looks dumb by doing the opposite.

[Carl Corey]

Germany has more or less the same problem with Muslims that we have with blacks, namely, high unemployment, poor educational achievements, a low average IQ (I think Muslims average around 90, where as African Americans score 85 on average in the US), high criminality, and a negative attitude toward the rest of society.

The biggest difference is that blacks are typically the victim of their own criminality, while Muslims due to the Koran demanding solidarity to only fellow Muslims, tend to not be the victim of their own crime, which greatly increases the perceived criminality by non-Muslims.

Like rape for example is primarily a black on black thing in the USA, where as with Muslims it's primarily Muslims raping non-Muslims.

It's difficult to compare this situation to the 1930s. Europe is in serious danger of being over ran by Islam and the inevitable civil war that would go along with that.

It's funny how people have the pre-programmed liberal response to anti-Muslim sentiments in Europe, rather than examining the situation for what it really is, people being genuinely frightened by something that is destroying life and liberty as they know it.

[LibertyEagle]

Like Liberty Eagle would say (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?p=2928314#post2928314).... but that point of view is based on Ayn Rand's hatred of God!!!!!!!!! AHHHHH!!!!! The Bible!!!1!1!!
:D

There you go again, lpg. Multiculturalism is quite a bit different conversation than epistemology, religion and science.

Nice try, though. :cool:

[low preference guy]

There you go again, lpg. Multiculturalism is quite a bit different conversation than epistemology, religion and science.

Nice try, though. :cool:

as if those anti-environmental arguments weren't based on her epistemology, which in turn is based in the epistemology of that God-Hating man called Thomas Aquinas (http://www.isil.org/ayn-rand/rands-contribution.html). :rolleyes:

[Fozz]

//

[Agorism]

13 percent of Germans want a ‘Fuhrer’ (http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2010/10/13-percent-germans-fuhrer/)

[BlackTerrel]

Why?

Multiculturalism is a huge FAIL.

What I find frightening is that young people are being taught that this multiculturalism is a good thing, having a shared language so a country's people can communicate is racist or some such piddle, the UN is all peaches and cream, it's our business to go "help" all the nations of the world and a country minding its own business and caring about its own well-being is somehow selfish and unenlightened.

It's all bs.

Hmmmmm I would disagree. While I can't speak to Germany - I think it works quite well in the US. We're the most multicultural society and I also think we're the best country.

I realize the latter is subjective but I think you'd have a hard time making a case we are not top 5 (especially if the comp is larger countries).

[BlackTerrel]

Germany has more or less the same problem with Muslims that we have with blacks, namely, high unemployment, poor educational achievements, a low average IQ (I think Muslims average around 90, where as African Americans score 85 on average in the US), high criminality, and a negative attitude toward the rest of society.

The biggest difference is that blacks are typically the victim of their own criminality, while Muslims due to the Koran demanding solidarity to only fellow Muslims, tend to not be the victim of their own crime, which greatly increases the perceived criminality by non-Muslims.

Like rape for example is primarily a black on black thing in the USA, where as with Muslims it's primarily Muslims raping non-Muslims.

It's difficult to compare this situation to the 1930s. Europe is in serious danger of being over ran by Islam and the inevitable civil war that would go along with that.

It's funny how people have the pre-programmed liberal response to anti-Muslim sentiments in Europe, rather than examining the situation for what it really is, people being genuinely frightened by something that is destroying life and liberty as they know it.

You really don't even hide it.

It's hard for me to comprehend with my low IQ how you haven't been banned yet.

[FrankRep]

Hmmmmm I would disagree. While I can't speak to Germany - I think it works quite well in the US. We're the most multicultural society and I also think we're the best country.

Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton would disagree. :p

[BlackTerrel]

Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton would disagree. :p

I don't even know about that. Has Jesse or Al ever said they'd prefer living somewhere else? I don't think so.....

[amy31416]

You really don't even hide it.

It's hard for me to comprehend with my low IQ how you haven't been banned yet.

You ought to take an IQ test, convert to Islam, then take another to see how much more your IQ has dropped--since intelligence is also a factor of your religion, it seems.

Oh, and by the way--good luck with all the raping and murder you have planned for the week. :)

[BlackTerrel]

It's going to be a busy week for sure.

[LibertyEagle]

You really don't even hide it.

It's hard for me to comprehend with my low IQ how you haven't been banned yet.

Why?

[osan]

Angela Merkel says German Multicultural Society Has Failed (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11559451)

DUH. Does this come as a surprise to anyone? Multiculturalism runs 90* to the grain of human nature.

The question now is what will they do about it? I would call this a very big problem for them. What do you say to some Pakistani kid who was born there? Go back to a place you've never been?

Another great result from the great social-liberal mindset. Whoopee.

[BamaAla]

You really don't even hide it.

It's hard for me to comprehend with my low IQ how you haven't been banned yet.

The guy who wrote that got a little out in left field. While he can't substantiate some of what he wrote, he does make a valid point. That section of our society is exponentially more violent while at the same time less productive, less wealthy, less educated, and has watched its family structure all but disappear. Obviously, the answer to that problem isn't racism or discrimination; however, we can't just keep ignoring the fact that its a problem.

Perhaps the Germans have reached the same impasse. I applaud Chancellor Merkel for attempting to advance the dialogue on an unpopular subject.

[LibertyEagle]

Here's the kicker though. The State loves immigrants for one primary reason. Because of the nativist crowd it is so incredibly easy to gain their political support simply by allowing a large amount of foreigners in. This whole issue is purposefully manufactured in order to win support from the people for more power given to the State.

I agree. But, it does not follow that allowing our borders to be overrun by illegal aliens is just fine and dandy and good for our country.

It is unbelievable that we have allowed this to happen and it will be much to our detriment. I don't know where you live, but in Texas, more than a few people have been murdered by illegal aliens. The media doesn't give much attention to it, but it's all over the place. Nor is the media covering what is akin to the war zone that is our border with Mexico right now. Sheriffs are being murdered and citizens too.

We have allowed people to illegally enter our country who think a large part of the southwest belongs to Aztlan and they damn sure plan to take it. We have Mexicans (not Americans) carrying Mexican flags in our streets calling for La Reconquista. And all the while, we are FUNDING them. It's unbelievable!

If people do not want to learn our language, our Founding principles, our culture and are not self-sufficient, they can stay the hell out. Those who do want to embrace those things are more than welcome, as far as I am concerned. Within ranges, of course.

[Austrian Econ Disciple]

I agree. But, it does not follow that allowing our borders to be overrun by illegal aliens is just fine and dandy and good for our country.

It is unbelievable that we have allowed this to happen and it will be much to our detriment. I don't know where you live, but in Texas, more than a few people have been murdered by illegal aliens. The media doesn't give much attention to it, but it's all over the place. Nor is the media covering what is akin to the war zone that is our border with Mexico right now. Sheriffs are being murdered and citizens too.

We have allowed people to illegally enter our country who think a large part of the southwest belongs to Aztlan and they damn sure plan to take it. We have Mexicans (not Americans) carrying Mexican flags in our streets calling for La Reconquista. And all the while, we are FUNDING them. It's unbelievable!

If people do not want to learn our language, our Founding principles, our culture and are not self-sufficient, they can stay the hell out. Those who do want to embrace those things are more than welcome, as far as I am concerned. Within ranges, of course.

LE you refuse to answer any of my questions to you. Why do you assume we can prevent people from coming into this country when we have THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS of miles of borders? East Germany couldn't stop it, and we certainly can't. What is the difference of spending money on border enforcement or welfare? Why is it better to spend on the former than the latter? You are still spending money. The problem isn't "open borders", but welfare. Stupid ass arguments.

[LibertyEagle]

LE you refuse to answer any of my questions to you.

I see no question you asked me in this thread.


Why do you assume we can prevent people from coming into this country when we have THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS of miles of borders? East Germany couldn't stop it, and we certainly can't.

There is a huge difference between stopping ALL illegal aliens vs. stemming the wholesale overrun of our borders that is going on right now.


What is the difference of spending money on border enforcement or welfare? Why is it better to spend on the former than the latter? You are still spending money. The problem isn't "open borders", but welfare.

I never said it was an either or. I have always maintained that the handouts to the illegal aliens should be stopped immediately, if not sooner. But, while we are getting that done, I would like to get serious about border enforcement.


Stupid ass arguments.

My thoughts exactly about your statements, bud. By the way, are you off of the government's teat yet, or are you still sucking?

[libertarian4321]

I hope they have enough sense to realise this, throw her party out and vote for a real nationalist party, instead.

Yes, that is exactly what Germany needs, another strong nationalist leader who uses immigrants and others as scapegoats. Auslander raus! style politics worked real well last time.

You'd better hope they don't turn their eyes toward Sweden this time...

[libertarian4321]

It is unbelievable that we have allowed this to happen and it will be much to our detriment. I don't know where you live, but in Texas, more than a few people have been murdered by illegal aliens. The media doesn't give much attention to it, but it's all over the place. Nor is the media covering what is akin to the war zone that is our border with Mexico right now. Sheriffs are being murdered and citizens too.



Yes, there are problems with drug runners along the border. Might I suggest that is more a result of our insane "War on Drugs" that makes gangsterism profitable than a problem with the Mexican people themselves?


We have allowed people to illegally enter our country who think a large part of the southwest belongs to Aztlan and they damn sure plan to take it. We have Mexicans (not Americans) carrying Mexican flags in our streets calling for La Reconquista. And all the while, we are FUNDING them. It's unbelievable!

Yeah, it's unbelievable all right, because I live in South Texas (San Antonio)- a majority Hispanic city, and I'm just not seeing all these "Mexicans with Mexican flags" pouring into the streets and demanding "Reconquista."

I went to a big rally about 4-5 years ago in downtown San Antonio (I worked downtown at the time and it was an interesting lunch break diversion). The rally was in support of allowing "illegals" to work here- there were some Mexican flags (but just as many American flags). I didn't see anything about "Reconquista." As a (really really) white guy, I didn't feel even slightly intimidated or uncomfortable there (other than the fact that it was a bit warm wearing a tie).

I'm not saying it never happened, but it's hardly a regular occurrence or anything to be frightened of.

Where in Texas do you live where all this is going on?


If people do not want to learn our language, our Founding principles, our culture and are not self-sufficient, they can stay the hell out. Those who do want to embrace those things are more than welcome, as far as I am concerned. Within ranges, of course

I agree. Most of the illegals (er, they might be illegal, I don't ask and they don't tell) I come across WORK THEIR ASSES OFF- they work harder than I ever would.

The problem I have when these folks come to work at my house is that they never leave- they show up just after sunrise and don't leave until it's dark. Twelve hours of listening to these guys hammering and making noise gets a little annoying. Sometimes they don't even break for lunch.

I've never met any of them who doesn't want to learn English- many of them don't speak a lot of English, but wish they did.

Why would anyone in this country not want to speak English? Life is so much for anyone if they do speak English, even if they are just day laborers. If they speak English they get more work and get paid more than if they only speak Spanish (and, in case it's not obvious, they come here to MAKE MONEY, not to piss you off).

There's a big difference between someone who doesn't speak English and someone won "refuses" to learn English. Learning a new language as an adult is hard, even if you are above average intelligence and have the time and money to get lessons (my less than eloquent Spanish will attest to this). Not being fluent in a new language is not an indication of not wanting to, or refusing to, speak the language.

I'm strongly against hand outs (to immigrants or native born), but I have no problem with people who come here to work hard- even if they speak little or no English when they arrive.

[LibertyEagle]

Are you telling me you missed all the marches that have gone on with Mexicans carrying Mexico's flag and marching in the streets. They've been televised. They happened around the country. If you have not heard of Aztlan or the Reconquista movement, Google is your friend.

[Agorism]

I favored a balkanized America, but that's just me. That being said, I am against amnesty. However, I am also strongly against enforcement.

I'd prefer the government get rid of social security cards and driver's licenses so that they have no clue at all who is here.

[LibertyEagle]

You'll get no argument from me with regard to getting rid of Social Security cards and driver's licenses.

[johngr]

The answer of using lesser tyranny because other countries commit tyranny is akin to forcing all rapists to use condoms when they rape people, but not stopping them from raping people.

Rape is bad. Tyranny is bad.

And how do I offer a strawman argument? He directly compares India and Japan to the United States, saying that they have nativist immigration policies and why does the West not do that? I am not misrepresenting his argument in the least.

Here's the kicker though. The State loves immigrants for one primary reason. Because of the nativist crowd it is so incredibly easy to gain their political support simply by allowing a large amount of foreigners in. This whole issue is purposefully manufactured in order to win support from the people for more power given to the State.

"Tit for tat" has a long tradition in diplomatics and foreign policy for good reasons. For example, Brazil required Americans to be fingerprinted when entering their land only after the Americans required the same. It is a way, short of going to war, of putting pressure on a foreign government to change their policy.

It is hyperbolic to call immigration restriction "tyrannical", particularly when the citizens don't want the culture, linguistic, religious and racial makeup of their land and society, which was built by their ancestors, changed by mass-immigration of incompatibles.

[Austrian Econ Disciple]

"Tit for tat" has a long tradition in diplomatics and foreign policy for good reasons. For example, Brazil required Americans to be fingerprinted when entering their land only after the Americans required the same. It is a way, short of going to war, of putting pressure on a foreign government to change their policy.

It is hyperbolic to call immigration restriction "tyrannical", particularly when the citizens don't want the culture, linguistic, religious and racial makeup of their land and society, which was built by their ancestors, changed by mass-immigration of incompatibles.

I have no problem with other cultures. In fact, I like to go to Little China, etc. The problem I have is when the Government forces you to do things (E.g. affirmative action, gender laws, employment laws, "hate speech" laws, etc.). I am glad though you are speaking for me. Thanks. (You are aware the culture of America is distinctly not American, right? -- It is the culture of immigrants homeland (Italian, German, Mexican, etc.))

For example...here in Milwaukee is heavily German and the culture reflects that. Lots of drinking, brats, German style activities, housing with a traditional German look, etc. If you go to New Mexico you will get a distinctly Native American/Mexican culture. If you go to Florida you will get a mix of hispanic, german, and spanish culture. There is no where in the US where there is an "American" culture. Unless you consider BBQ, Football, Baseball, etc. the unification of American culture. If you look at architectural styling, food, traditional town activities, etc. they reflect the culture of the immigrants who arrived there in the 1700, 1800, and 1900s. (Pennsylvania is heavily German too)

I do agree though that multiculturalism has failed. You can't force people to interact and expect them to be friendly. That is just stupid. However, the mingling of cultures like the US had from 1700 to the 1920s does work, and is very much beneficial. Before the advent of the Welfare State people came here who wanted to be a productive member of society. They couldn't survive otherwise. Similarly, no one forced them to interact with others they didn't want to, and there was little violence between ethnicities and cultures. The problem has been and always will be of coercion and initiation of force. The answer is to repeal laws, not to enact ethno-centric laws which only fosters more hate, and as we know by history -- bad things come from this.

[BlackTerrel]

America has been multicultural and very successful since the late 19th century. There is no need for the presence of multiple ethnicities to lead to Balkanization. Somehow Europe fails to assimilate their immigrants, but that is their problem, not to be a blanket indictment against diversity.

Too many Europeans seem to either be outright racist and hate everyone who doesn't look like them or "I hate my own white skin" Michael Moore types.

Whereas most Americans find a healthy middle ground.

[ibaghdadi]

While I can't speak to Germany - I think it works quite well in the US. We're the most multicultural society and I also think we're the best country.
Agreed. Successful multicultural societies are possible, and they tend to be more prosperous and peaceful.

These societies are also good for the world by showing that people can indeed get along.

Sometimes it's funny seeing a new immigrant freak out about this here (in the UAE). I've seen Indians freak out about having to work with Pakistanis (he thought they'll try to kill him), and Turks freak out about having to work under an Armenian boss.

But it normally doesn't take long for them to realize we're all people.


Too many Europeans seem to either be outright racist and hate everyone who doesn't look like them or "I hate my own white skin" Michael Moore types. Whereas most Americans find a healthy middle ground.
Agreed again. It's way off comparing the USA to Europe. The USA had a civil rights movement, Europe had a holocaust.

Besides, I find it hypocritical that the same nations that tried to conquer the world now complain that some of those people they tried to conquer ended up living next door.

[JustinTime]

Multiculturalism is Cultural Marxism, nobody here should defend it.

Its just a way to divide people up into oppressed and oppressor groups, get them fighting for their 'tribe' and trying to take from one group and give to another, all in the name of 'social justice'.

Freedom is all you need. Same rules for everyone, and government (but not necessarily the people) must treat all as individuals. Multiculturalism doesnt do that, and is anathema to everything we stand for.

I piss all over it.

[Austrian Econ Disciple]

Multiculturalism is Cultural Marxism, nobody here should defend it.

Its just a way to divide people up into oppressed and oppressor groups, get them fighting for their 'tribe' and trying to take from one group and give to another, all in the name of 'social justice'.

Freedom is all you need. Same rules for everyone, and government (but not necessarily the people) must treat all as individuals. Multiculturalism doesnt do that, and is anathema to everything we stand for.

I piss all over it.

Indeed. I am against both ethno-centrism and multiculturalism since they are both rooted in initiation of force, and coercive authoritarian power. Many people enjoy experiencing others culture. People just don't like being forced to do things against their will.