Please help me in a debate...

[Kombaiyashii]

Hi folks, I've gotten myself in a sticky situation again...

I've been debating this person over what is better, freedom vs a kind of techno-communism.

I think I've out done the person on every point, however I slipped by saying that Americans were the highest educated people when the country was the freest country in the world (around the 19 hundreds). I have heard this many times but admittedly, I didn't know the source for it (and am having trouble finding it).

Could anyone help me find a source for this,

Thanks,

Komb

[JoshLowry]

Evidently these guys have similar data going back to the 70's based on happiness and a freedom rating for one's country. No idea about the accuracies of their material.

http://www.freedomhouse.org/template.cfm?page=439

[cswake]

It really depends on your definition of "education". Most of academicians recognize literacy as one of the key measurements, and the U.S. had a 90% literacy rate at the turn of the 20th century:

http://www.gongol.com/research/economics/growthstages/

On the other hand, "educational attainment" has been going up over the 20th century and keeps hitting new highs all the time. The question of course is what the value of a high school or college degree is compared to the historical baseline.

http://www.census.gov/prod/2004pubs/p20-550.pdf

[Austrian Econ Disciple]

What the fuck is techno-communism? That is about as absurd and contradictory as I have ever heard in my life. As with all forms of communism just demolish the LTV and you take down the rest of their philosophy (As that is the building block for the rest of it).

[Stary Hickory]

Keep in mind that this country has been attacked my progressivism and statism like many countries. Our school systems used to be more market based and free. As a result we had a level of education that could not be matched.

When you talk about education in the US, you must understand that we are talking about one of the worst kinds of education set ups. Our education system is made to serve the teacher's union and not the kids or parents. Even in a lot of European countries that have a better education system.

Be careful about using America as it is today as an example of freedom in the world. Due to regulations and social programs much of what was once free has been corrupted and ruined. Also keep in mind the sources your opponent uses. A lot of the "expert" sources are nothing more than socialist/statist hacks who paint very rosey pictures about socialist countries.

[ClayTrainor]

What the fuck is techno-communism?

Makes me suspect he's just another big Zeitgeist fan.

[teacherone]

Makes me suspect he's just another big Zeitgeist fan.

venus project crap again

[dannno]

I've been debating this person over what is better, freedom vs a kind of techno-communism.



My new roommate is the Zeitgeist Group Coordinator in my town, I'm very much used to these arguments by now..

They will say that we don't need money, we only have money because there is scarcity of goods. They will say that scarcity is artificial because they will agree that the corporations use government power to inhibit humanity from it's potential to feed and provide better for everyone because the corporations want us to depend on them.. They will explain that the technology is already available to feed everybody and we can easily automate production of building materials and such, we just need to build better and more sustainable food systems that aren't modeled around agribusinesses like Monsanto. Large-scale aquaponics comes to mind, I heard some guy grew a million pounds of food in a year on 2 acres of land. There are plenty of people who enjoy farming enough and they would be happy to just have some equipment and land to farm on. What they are saying isn't completely out of the question, the big question is whether the person is willing to use coercion or violence to achieve what they are trying to achieve. Generally they will agree that violence and coercion are not good tools to achieve what they want, that it will have to come about as a result of humanity realizing what they are actually capable of and doing it.

I just explain that freedom takes the tool of the corporations to inhibit us away so that mankind can work towards getting rid of scarcity.

I think it is fair to admit that if scarcity didn't exist, money wouldn't hold any value and would inevitably become extinct naturally, just like what the Venus Project people want.. but to get there, we have to take away the power of force and coercion and then we can employ the technologies that they want in order to work towards getting rid of scarcity. Freedom will lead to increase in wealth of everyone, and once everybody has savings then people will actually have the ability to invest in this type of stuff.

Another lesson many of these people need to learn is Peter Schiff's father's book about the fishing island. How do you build all of this infrastructure while providing for all of the builders without taking resources from other people by force? The other thing is that they often don't understand why it is better to have a factory owner run a factory than someone who has no vested interest in the factory.

[teacherone]

My new roommate is the Zeitgeist Group Coordinator in my town, I'm very much used to these arguments by now..

holy shit... is there such a thing?

is the cult catching on?

[Austrian Econ Disciple]

My new roommate is the Zeitgeist Group Coordinator in my town, I'm very much used to these arguments by now..

They will say that we don't need money, we only have money because there is scarcity of goods. They will say that scarcity is artificial because they will agree that the corporations use government power to inhibit humanity from it's potential to feed and provide better for everyone because the corporations want us to depend on them.. They will explain that the technology is already available to feed everybody and we can easily automate production of building materials and such, we just need to build better and more sustainable food systems that aren't modeled around agribusinesses like Monsanto. Large-scale aquaponics comes to mind, I heard some guy grew a million pounds of food in a year on 2 acres of land. There are plenty of people who enjoy farming enough and they would be happy to just have some equipment and land to farm on. What they are saying isn't completely out of the question, the big question is whether the person is willing to use coercion or violence to achieve what they are trying to achieve. Generally they will agree that violence and coercion are not good tools to achieve what they want, that it will have to come about as a result of humanity realizing what they are actually capable of and doing it.

I just explain that freedom takes the tool of the corporations to inhibit us away so that mankind can work towards getting rid of scarcity.

I think it is fair to admit that if scarcity didn't exist, money wouldn't hold any value and would inevitably become extinct naturally, just like what the Venus Project people want.. but to get there, we have to take away the power of force and coercion and then we can employ the technologies that they want in order to work towards getting rid of scarcity. Freedom will lead to increase in wealth of everyone, and once everybody has savings then people will actually have the ability to invest in this type of stuff.

Another lesson many of these people need to learn is Peter Schiff's father's book about the fishing island. How do you build all of this infrastructure while providing for all of the builders without taking resources from other people by force? They often don't understand why it is better to have a factory owner run a factory than someone who has no vested interest in the factory.

Well until the Venus Project can find a way to make time infinite, there will always be scarcity. :D Not to mention the Garden of Eden problem -- I wish to fight you, but you don't. So, we can say for certainty that scarcity will always exist because of self-ownership. More than that, even if we got to this magical land of non-scarcity (An absurdity on its face), what about non-tangible goods and services? Prostitution, boxing, UFC, video games, etc. How are we going to calculate how to trade for these services and goods? Venus Project is about the most absurd 'project' 'idea' ever concocted.

[oyarde]

Nothing is better than Freedom . How could anyone think otherwise ?

[dannno]

holy shit... is there such a thing?

is the cult catching on?

I wouldn't worry too much, but really most of the stuff they are talking about isn't all that bad, it's just the tone that some of the discussions have make us freedom oriented individuals a little queasey..

For example, they talk about amazing technologies that we could and should unleash, and would be able to if we had the type of wealth and savings we would have in a free society.

But they never talk about abolishing currency or putting people in prisons to choose to use gold to trade, they instead talk about how unnecessary it would be. I try to bring that type of discussion to the front so that they can face the issue within themselves of whether they actually want to put a gun to someone's head who is making a voluntary exchange.

I try to convince them that these types of techno-societies could be created within a free society, but not one where government rules everything, because corporations will inevitably usurp that power. They always agree that it has to be a voluntary movement of individuals.. So I personally don't find the belief systems that much different, except that they just can't comprehend the whole savings/investment side of what they are trying to achieve.. they can't do it without either saving or taking resources from someone else.

[teacherone]

I wouldn't worry too much, but really most of the stuff they are talking about isn't all that bad, it's just the tone that some of the discussions have make us freedom oriented individuals a little queasey..

For example, they talk about amazing technologies that we could and should unleash, and would be able to if we had the type of wealth and savings we would have in a free society.

But they never talk about abolishing currency or putting people in prisons to choose to use gold to trade, they instead talk about how unnecessary it would be.

I try to convince them that these types of societies could be created within a free society, but not one where government rules everything, because corporations will inevitably usurp that power.

dude there's like amazing technologies and stuff that people will like totally develop and maintain for free because it's our right as human beings to have what we need to survive for free man, and these super geniuses will like create robots and machines and things that can like self-replicate and think for themselves so you and i can like live in peace and catch some waves while our little robot cocktail girl goes and mixes another one like...

[libertybrewcity]

Techno communism is probably just as practical as anarcho capitalism :p