Because of human psychology, there is no hope?

[djinwa]

My aunt stopped by the other day. Like most of my relatives, she is your typical conservative. She had a brochure to give me – something about how Obama will bring us down. I agreed with that, but asked why nobody cared when Bush started the same unconstitutional programs. I mentioned that he doubled the Dept of Education. She replied that his intentions were good. I suggested that Obama’s intentions might be good, but she replied that he is evil.

She also mentioned that Bush didn’t necessarily support the bad programs, but they were pushed on him. I told her about his speeches promoting housing for everyone. I said he didn’t have to give those speeches – he could have at least been silent. She muttered some agreement, but kept pushing how terrible Obama is.

My dad sends me the Washington Times, all about the evil Obama. Yes, he’s the worst we’ve had, but I’m sure when a Republican gets in office and does the same stuff, it will be fine.

When you ponder human behavior and psychology, it seems most people have to belong to some group, and defend it regardless of what it stands for. Pointless to ask for justification – it’s just an animal survival instinct that people don’t even understand. Safety in a group.

Examples of groups: political parties, religions, makes of cars/trucks (Ford vs Chevy), sports teams, etc, etc. We wonder why some troops might hunt down civilians in Afghanistan for fun – same instinct. Many Christians feel better when their side is winning over the muslims. So there will be endless war.

Despite our big brain, we’re just animals.

[tpreitzel]

My aunt stopped by the other day. Like most of my relatives, she is your typical conservative. She had a brochure to give me – something about how Obama will bring us down. I agreed with that, but asked why nobody cared when Bush started the same unconstitutional programs. I mentioned that he doubled the Dept of Education. She replied that his intentions were good. I suggested that Obama’s intentions might be good, but she replied that he is evil.

She also mentioned that Bush didn’t necessarily support the bad programs, but they were pushed on him. I told her about his speeches promoting housing for everyone. I said he didn’t have to give those speeches – he could have at least been silent. She muttered some agreement, but kept pushing how terrible Obama is.

My dad sends me the Washington Times, all about the evil Obama. Yes, he’s the worst we’ve had, but I’m sure when a Republican gets in office and does the same stuff, it will be fine.

When you ponder human behavior and psychology, it seems most people have to belong to some group, and defend it regardless of what it stands for. Pointless to ask for justification – it’s just an animal survival instinct that people don’t even understand. Safety in a group.

Examples of groups: political parties, religions, makes of cars/trucks (Ford vs Chevy), sports teams, etc, etc. We wonder why some troops might hunt down civilians in Afghanistan for fun – same instinct. Many Christians feel better when their side is winning over the muslims. So there will be endless war.

Despite our big brain, we’re just animals.


It's a defense mechanism. Pride often stands in the way. Just keep tactfully hammering away with the truth as much as possible.

[Anti Federalist]

Agreed.

You'll never get a plurality.

Which is why, to some extent, we should not care what these people think or say.

Drag 'em along kicking and screaming if we must.

They'll jump on board once the tide has turned and "come in for the big win".

"In the beginning of a change, the Patriot is a scarce man, brave, hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, however, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a Patriot." Sam Clemens


My aunt stopped by the other day. Like most of my relatives, she is your typical conservative. She had a brochure to give me – something about how Obama will bring us down. I agreed with that, but asked why nobody cared when Bush started the same unconstitutional programs. I mentioned that he doubled the Dept of Education. She replied that his intentions were good. I suggested that Obama’s intentions might be good, but she replied that he is evil.

She also mentioned that Bush didn’t necessarily support the bad programs, but they were pushed on him. I told her about his speeches promoting housing for everyone. I said he didn’t have to give those speeches – he could have at least been silent. She muttered some agreement, but kept pushing how terrible Obama is.

My dad sends me the Washington Times, all about the evil Obama. Yes, he’s the worst we’ve had, but I’m sure when a Republican gets in office and does the same stuff, it will be fine.

When you ponder human behavior and psychology, it seems most people have to belong to some group, and defend it regardless of what it stands for. Pointless to ask for justification – it’s just an animal survival instinct that people don’t even understand. Safety in a group.

Examples of groups: political parties, religions, makes of cars/trucks (Ford vs Chevy), sports teams, etc, etc. We wonder why some troops might hunt down civilians in Afghanistan for fun – same instinct. Many Christians feel better when their side is winning over the muslims. So there will be endless war.

Despite our big brain, we’re just animals.

[Carl Corey]

Most people don't base their world view on logic, but on a chain of authority comparable to the chain of command in the military.

[RedStripe]

When you ponder human behavior and psychology, it seems most people have to belong to some group, and defend it regardless of what it stands for. Pointless to ask for justification – it’s just an animal survival instinct that people don’t even understand. Safety in a group.

Examples of groups: political parties, religions, makes of cars/trucks (Ford vs Chevy), sports teams, etc, etc. We wonder why some troops might hunt down civilians in Afghanistan for fun – same instinct. Many Christians feel better when their side is winning over the muslims. So there will be endless war.

Despite our big brain, we’re just animals.

Even if we are stuck with this kind of mentality, it's still possible for society to evolve into something better in the long run. The true revolution won't be a conscious one. It won't be motivated primary by political ideology or party politics. It will come when people, in their day-to-day lives, simply choose to live differently and to live in a way that slowly undermines the very foundation of our state-corporate system.

They will choose to live differently - to grow more of their own food, to educate themselves for free on the internet, to buy and sell things on places like craigslist (instead of a big box store), to work with their neighbors to carpool, babysit, and exchange basic services - not because they have any goal of affecting the system as a whole, but because these will become the best options for them personally. The Industrial Revolution wasn't a conscious effort, it was a spontaneous development, and the social and political revolutions that came with it were a direct response.

I'm a firm believer in bottom-up change, and the idea that the sorts of fundamental changes which could lay the foundation for a free society will come from all directions. It's not just about electing more Ron Pauls, or raising awareness about the injustices of our system, or developing new economic models which can bypass and ignore the state regulator apparatus. It's all of these things.

[justinc.1089]

I don't think its so much that people want to belong to a group, in many regards they do but not necessarily politcally or in a manner that harms them, but its more that people look for an "authority."

Religion and politics offer tons of authority for people to follow. Health and environmentalism are becoming common new sources for authority for lots of people as well I think. Maybe those and some other things are filling in the gap for religion since there aren't as many religious people as there used to be? I don't know, just thinking out loud...

But yeah, my point is, I feel like people look for authority because they are not confident in themselves for some reason.

A lot of people truly seem to believe "smart people" could handle their finances for them better than they could handle their own finances for example, and therefore don't have a problem with the guberment taking everyone's money and then just handing them a cut of the money, even though their own money was taken away from them too.

The Milgram (Milgrim? not sure how to spell that...) experiment where people were told to keep shocking/ electrocuting people proves 39 out of 40 people submit to authority at all times, even against their own morals, and even when they are told by authority to kill someone else.

During the Milgram or Milgrim, however thats spelled, experiment, only 1 person out of a group of 40 people refused to keep shocking the other person once the person was pleading for it to end, and had their life in danger supposedly.

One person.

Thats a serious problem in the human mental condition, and I dare to say it is not a problem among libertarians.

Milgrim/ Milgram agreed with me, but he himself fell to the psychological need for an "authority" because he said that libertarianism is the solution to his experiment's alarming findings, but that it is not the solution because it would cause anarchy, and we need the guberment to prevent anarchy.



Edit:


But no, the human psychological condition will not doom us because it changes and evolves. It changes from one generation to the next, which is why there is a strengthening of libertarianism right now, because the younger generations like my own generation are much more libertarian than generations before us. We were born looking for less "authority."

The individual also changes as well. I for example, was part of the "conservative" group for awhile in my life, and looked to religion for authority while I was very young, until I was about 17. That was around the time I first saw Ron Paul and he woke me up and I left my "conservative" group think and am now libertarian. I'm also nothing like I was religiously before either. I used to look for authority to tell me how to run my life from religion, now I just don't care. I look for logical reasoning and evidence in spiritual matters more than anything now days.

So the human psychological condition will GREATLY SLOW us, but it certainly won't defeat us. People change in time.

[djinwa]

But no, the human psychological condition will not doom us because it changes and evolves. It changes from one generation to the next, which is why there is a strengthening of libertarianism right now, because the younger generations like my own generation are much more libertarian than generations before us. We were born looking for less "authority."

The individual also changes as well. I for example, was part of the "conservative" group for awhile in my life, and looked to religion for authority while I was very young, until I was about 17. That was around the time I first saw Ron Paul and he woke me up and I left my "conservative" group think and am now libertarian. I'm also nothing like I was religiously before either. I used to look for authority to tell me how to run my life from religion, now I just don't care. I look for logical reasoning and evidence in spiritual matters more than anything now days.

So the human psychological condition will GREATLY SLOW us, but it certainly won't defeat us. People change in time.

Unfortunately, large scale genetic change happens slowly. There are many thousands of years of survival programming in our genes to overcome if we want to be more civilized. It used to be we'd go over to the neighboring village and plunder by force. Now we use the government to do it for us - very little change.

If any genetic change is happening, it is probably toward more dependence on government, as the ones having the most offspring are on government support. There was a time when your kids would die if you couldn't support them, thereby promoting the tendency for self-reliance. Now any idiot can reproduce and create the next generation of helpless idiots.

It is possible that even libertarians have some group think going on. Maybe we think everyone's coming over to our way of thinking, but probably not. That would require more personal responsibility, and that's not how most behave. Yes, perhaps the one of fourty you mention. That's about right from what I've seen, and probably about the percentage a good libertarian candidate would get.

[TheBlackPeterSchiff]

When you ponder human behavior and psychology, it seems most people have to belong to some group, and defend it regardless of what it stands for. Pointless to ask for justification – it’s just an animal survival instinct that people don’t even understand. Safety in a group.

Examples of groups: political parties, religions, makes of cars/trucks (Ford vs Chevy), sports teams, etc, etc. We wonder why some troops might hunt down civilians in Afghanistan for fun – same instinct. Many Christians feel better when their side is winning over the muslims. So there will be endless war.

Despite our big brain, we’re just animals.

Man this so true.

[TheBlackPeterSchiff]

Our best hope is some one buys a large amount of territory, and invites private individuals to come and buy property on that space and live a free voluntary life. Until that happens you just have to keep educating people and showing them the light.

[Mach]

When you ponder human behavior and psychology, it seems most people have to belong to some group, and defend it regardless of what it stands for. Pointless to ask for justification – it’s just an animal survival instinct that people don’t even understand. Safety in a group.

Examples of groups: political parties, religions, makes of cars/trucks (Ford vs Chevy), sports teams, etc, etc. We wonder why some troops might hunt down civilians in Afghanistan for fun – same instinct. Many Christians feel better when their side is winning over the muslims. So there will be endless war.

Despite our big brain, we’re just animals.

I agree..... here's something that gets a lot more detailed on the basics of the human animal. You can skip the Introductory if you want to, most of it is just school info.

YouTube - 1. Introduction (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3FKHH2RzjI&p=6A08EB4EEFF3E91F&index=1&feature=BF)

YouTube - 2. Foundations: This Is Your Brain (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vg01Q1BI4WM&feature=channel)

If you want to actually watch all 20 Parts then copy and paste this link and it will give you a playlist to keep all of the parts in line.....


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3FKHH2RzjI&p=6A08EB4EEFF3E91F&index=1&feature=BF

[Endgame]

I think most people are self-hating masochists and natural-born followers. Herd instincts that have been bred into humanity starting with agriculture. As we figured out how to farm animals, people figured out how to farm other people. I just hope there it hasn't been literally (genetically) bred into a majority of the population but that's always possible.

All major religions, all popular political ideologies, are based around submission and self-deprivation.

[justinc.1089]

Unfortunately, large scale genetic change happens slowly. There are many thousands of years of survival programming in our genes to overcome if we want to be more civilized. It used to be we'd go over to the neighboring village and plunder by force. Now we use the government to do it for us - very little change.

If any genetic change is happening, it is probably toward more dependence on government, as the ones having the most offspring are on government support. There was a time when your kids would die if you couldn't support them, thereby promoting the tendency for self-reliance. Now any idiot can reproduce and create the next generation of helpless idiots.

It is possible that even libertarians have some group think going on. Maybe we think everyone's coming over to our way of thinking, but probably not. That would require more personal responsibility, and that's not how most behave. Yes, perhaps the one of fourty you mention. That's about right from what I've seen, and probably about the percentage a good libertarian candidate would get.



I wasn't necessarily talking about genetic changes, although that could be included in what I meant I suppose if you think thats happening, (I think its possible), what I meant was more general like cultural changes.

The younger generations today are completely different than the old ones. I don't care what anyone tells me, I think in a completely different way than older people I meet, and I meet a lot less people around my age like that.

There are exceptions of course. I have met older people that think like my generation, and I have met people from my generation that think like the older ones.

And yes, more people are reproducing that are depending on the government, but for every 10 of them 1 self-reliant independant person will achieve the same amount of prosperity, freedom, and influence in life. 1 independent individual is as influencial as at least 10 individuals that depend on the government to support them. Those people have nothing but what the government gives them, and will never change the world except for what they take away from the world.

I believe one single independent person can give more to the world than what 10 dependent people can take away from it.

But its not like you can really quantify things like that, its just my personal opinion...

More people are certainly coming our way. Personally, I don't think its really that more are coming our way. I think its that my generation has just become old enough to vote, and become involved politically, and I think we're introducing the biggest percentage of libertarians to the population since maybe, well I don't know, ever?

I think Ron Paul feels the same way because he often says "all these young people" come to rallies, like the idea of liberty, and so on. I know when I met him he was particularly interested in talking to me, not my middle aged father, and asked me what made me interested.

I think Ron Paul has noticed that there are more libertarians in my generation, and may feel like that has something to do with his success. I feel like in the next 20 years we're going to see government growth stall big time, and if we're extremely lucky, maybe even see it scaled back some, because I think the generations coming after mine are going to continue to have more libertarians than the past generations did.

Sure, it won't be like anything above more than 1% or 3% of the population, but when you compare that to .25% or .5% of the population of older generations, thats a dramatic change.

[pacelli]

Just a point of clarification, when you speak about psychology, you're actually referring to social psychology. The Milgram (1961) study on obedience as well as Zimbardo's Stanford Prison Experiment were both classics, and, highly unethical. They wouldn't be reproduced today. While Milgram's study demonstrated the power of authority figures, Zimbardo's represented the power of hierarchy. People act out the roles that they are placed in. These were studies in social psychology. Hugo Munsterberg referred to "mob psychology" which I think is a more apt moniker.

Here's one on the Stanford Prison Experiment:

YouTube - Stanford Prison Experiment (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rmwSC5fS40w)


Clinical psychology (that is, the branch of psychology that deals with the treatment of mental illness without medication) has generally helped individuals in seemingly hopeless situations to find some level of hope and avoid killing themselves.

[djinwa]

Thanks for the clarification. I've actually never had any formal study of the field. Just been observing most of my life. I also have a small farm and have noticed the animals behave pretty much like the humans, or vice versa.

For example, I have two breeds of chickens. When they roost together at night, you see one breed at one end and the other breed at the other. And as long as you have equal numbers of each they pretty much respect each other. But if one breed becomes a significant minority, they start getting picked on by the others.

[Original_Intent]

It's not natural human psychology, it is the way we are programmed to be. High school and collegiate athletics are the lens through which we experience the rest of our lives. The bread and circuses serve more functions than merely to keep us entertained.

[Acala]

Human beings are a species in transition. At the moment, the vast majority are driven by their emotions - fear, anger, sadness, hatred, greed, lust, pride, shame, etc. They are driven by these emotions unconsciously. And because they are driven by these emotions they can be easily and predictably manipulated by other people who study the art. As long as most people are driven unconsciously by their emotions, we will have the kind of world we have today - dominated by violence, corruption, and ignorance.

But it is possible for human beings to learn to be conscious of, and not driven by, their emotions. This makes them immune to the manipulators. Once the majority of human beings develop this kind of self-awareness, the world will change. But until then, it will not.