Libertarian solution to public littering?

[Reason]

Thoughts/articles anyone?

IE:

You are sitting at a stop light and the person in the car in front of you dumps their ash tray out the window containing several dozen cigarette butts.

You are walking down a public sidewalk and a person passing you drops their fast food trash on the sidewalk and keeps walking.


*Note* This assumes that upon politely asking that the trash be picked up the person ignores you and leaves.

[TheTyke]

What's the problem with litter laws? Either it's done on "public property," which if it must exist, is rightly controlled by elected officials of the public, or it's done on private property, in which case it is a violation thereof and deserves punishment.

[Vessol]

Public property is incorrectly named. The more proper term is State-owned property.

Let's look at the problem of this first. How has the State accumulated this property? More often than not it is through gunpoint.

[Reason]

What's the problem with litter laws? Either it's done on "public property," which if it must exist, is rightly controlled by elected officials of the public, or it's done on private property, in which case it is a violation thereof and deserves punishment.

Yeah, i am just curious because I know we aren't a fan of calling the cops on "crimes" that don't have victims.

[justinc.1089]

http://mises.org/daily/4563



That will explain EVERYTHING you want to know about the libertarian- and only- solution to make littering a thing of the past.

Please do read the article, afterall, I went to the trouble of finding it for you.

I suggest checking Mises.org from time to time to take a look at their daily articles because the articles are always excellent. I learn so much from that site!

[Reason]

http://mises.org/daily/4563 (http://mises.org/daily/4563)



That will explain EVERYTHING you want to know about the libertarian- and only- solution to make littering a thing of the past.

Please do read the article, afterall, I went to the trouble of finding it for you.

I suggest checking Mises.org from time to time to take a look at their daily articles because the articles are always excellent. I learn so much from that site!

Thank you sir :cool:

[justinc.1089]

Thank you sir :cool:

You're welcome! Its not a problem at all! It actually only took me a few minutes to track down the article again thanks to the search feature on Mises lol...:p

[paulpwns]

Good article but the conclusion is poor.

The easiest solution is just to privatize all city workers, then find a way to get off the government dime.

[Live_Free_Or_Die]

Call the police in a frenzy so they arrive on the scene in a high state of alert and shoot the person. One less non-libertarian on the planet.

[justinc.1089]

Good article but the conclusion is poor.

The easiest solution is just to privatize all city workers, then find a way to get off the government dime.

Thats what the article was saying...


It then concluded by saying that people that litter are actually doing good because their litter points out the existence of an unjust system.

It makes people stop and think and realize something is wrong because there is a litter problem. So then hopefully some people, like us, will think about how to fix the problem, which is the unjust system.

And that fix is privatization like you and the article say. It just concluded with the beginning phase of solving the problem, which is someone littering and displaying the results of an unjust system.

[phill4paul]

As a lawn service worker I always blow off the parking lots after mowing. I had a lady look me in the eye at a bank then dump here entire ashtray on the pavement before entering the bank. It was summer and she left her window down so I took all her nasty butts and threw them in the floorboard of the back seat.
So there is one libertarians solution.

[JohnEngland]

The solution? Make everyone a libertarian/conservative!

Compare the Glenn Beck rally and the Big Union rally. The people at the former were self-regulating, tidy and there was hardly any litter. The people at the latter were on handouts, dependent, untidy and left a big mess.

Change the people, change the world!!!

Ok, so my idea isn't very easy to implement... :p

[Promontorium]

Holding people accountable for damaging property that isn't theirs, that's essentially what littering is.

Most questions about dealing with bad behavior are answered with the "more responsible society" theory of libertarianism. If people are held personally accountable for their lives, and can not profit from exploiting others, then overall a lot of the issues of "laziness" are mitigated.

Regardless of politics, places like America don't need to be so littered. Japan for example has half the US population living in less than 5% of the land (20-30% of Japan land is habitable, and the entire nation is smaller than California), yet not only is there no litter problem, there aren't trash cans everywhere! I agree with the theory that the cramped lifestyle of the average Japanese person has necesitated a culture of higher manners and respect.

Americans have room to stretch out their middle fingers to each other, so they do, and thus have we littering and trashcans everywhere.

[Austrian Econ Disciple]

Solution? Abolish State-property. Solution? Cost of Business.

It is not against the law to litter in Disney World. It is why they have grounds people. The same would go for any private roadway system, etc.

[Vessol]

http://www.explosm.net/db/files/Comics/Rob/doyoulikeme.png

[johnrocks]

Not everything under the sun has a "libertarian solution", there needs to be laws to protect property rights among other things and anti littering ordinances are part of that equation.

I personally like how Oregon does things, has a deposit on damn near everything there is, when I was there years ago, there was no such thing as non returnable soda bottles, put a deposit on it and kids;and even some adults; will pick that dime up,lol.

[noxagol]

The solution is that the owners of said property have to figure out how to deal with the litter. There is no one magic solution that will satisfy everyone and that's why state run things fail.

[awake]

How does an owner of any property deal with clutter and trash? He either cleans it himself or hires people to do it. If it is being dumped there he has a legal claim against the aggressor.

If the streets were ownable privately, then it could be included in the toll or access fee. Litter can be highly subjective; Example: Fall leaves to some may seem messy, to others it does not bother them.

Currently, littering is not solved by the prevailing laws.

[justinc.1089]

Not everything under the sun has a "libertarian solution", there needs to be laws to protect property rights among other things and anti littering ordinances are part of that equation.

I personally like how Oregon does things, has a deposit on damn near everything there is, when I was there years ago, there was no such thing as non returnable soda bottles, put a deposit on it and kids;and even some adults; will pick that dime up,lol.

Personal morality and other religious/ spiritual/ philosophical matters may not have libertarian solutions, but most other world problems do because the majority of the world's worst problems are caused by the state, directly or indirectly.

You should read the article I posted. What is littering? Is littering a problem when you go in a store or somewhere to eat? Most likely 90% or more of the time its not.

Littering only exists in public places, by definition.

Littering is a distortion of how much trash people allow to be left laying around at places caused by the government interfering in the free market's ability to demand excess trash be cleaned up.

It works the same way as say price controls. If you require the price of an item to be lower than it normally would be, people demand so many of the item that a shortage occurs. If you require the price of an item to be higher than it normally would be, people demand less of the item and a surplus occurs.

In the free market consumers demand both to be able to leave a certain amount of trash behind, whatever amount they think is not really leaving trash behind, and they also demand that there not be more than what they feel is an acceptable amount of trash left around.

***Thats why you never see "litter" in private places; the amount of trash left there is the normal acceptable market-demanded level, and therefore we don't even notice if there is any because we don't think of it as being litter!***

So if the government takes what would be private and market based, and therefore makes it not based off market demands, then there is no way to match trash amounts with the amounts the consumers find appropriate, and thus you have litter!

What will occur is that the government will either over regulate the amount of trash, and remove more than people would demand be removed, or it will under regulate, and remove less than people would normally demand be removed.

Removing more may sound good, but its really not because its a waste of time. If it was not a waste of time to remove MORE trash, then people would demand that much more trash be removed! But obviously its not necessary to remove that much more trash, and therefore people don't demand it to be removed. Also they don't perceive that trash being "litter."

Removing less is easier to understand right away. This is much easier to notice than removing too much trash. We see it on roads and beaches and so on. If these were privately owned, market forces would self-regulate the appropriate amount of trash by the market's invisible hand.



And the example mentioned of someone dumping trash on someone else's property is a perfect example of this. If you dump trash in my yard, or even beside the road near my house, I'm going to get rid of it because I have ownership of the property I live on. I feel that it is mine and my responsibility. My business would be even more important because customers will demand trash be removed.

So if its a continous occurence with you leaving trash on my property, then you're vandalizing my property, no different than spray painting all over my house's walls or keying my car or something.

There are laws already against that stuff, as there should be.

[mczerone]

Yeah, i am just curious because I know we aren't a fan of calling the cops on "crimes" that don't have victims.

The property owner is a legitimate victim to littering.

If it wasn't the ineffective, inefficient state controlling such open-access property, there'd likely be (1) more, and more easily accessible waste bins (like the "reaching" trash cans at some McDs drive-thrus), (2) better security monitoring for such recklessness so you don't have to "rat" on anyone, (3) better cleaned areas, both because design would accommodate easier cleaning, and there'd be incentive to employ an appropriate number of cleaners, (4) certain areas where littering just would be expected, because the property owner doesn't value cleanliness, and (5) better administrated penalties who inappropriately litter.

The question isn't if there are any "Libertarian solutions to littering"; you really should be asking "Why does anyone think a gov't could be a solution to littering or anything else?"

[pcosmar]

The question isn't if there are any "Libertarian solutions to littering"; you really should be asking "Why does anyone think a gov't could be a solution to littering or anything else?"

Statement of the thread.

Say it loud and often.
:cool:

[Rancher]

In a truly free market, trash would be a valuable commodity much like aluminum cans are now.

[justinc.1089]

In a truly free market, trash would be a valuable commodity much like aluminum cans are now.

Lol aluminum may be valuable, and many other kinds of trash, but I'm not so sure that ALL trash would be valuable...

[pacelli]

My response would be that if I had a real problem with someone littering, I'd pick it up. If it isn't important enough for me to pick it up, then I don't have a real problem with it.

[dannno]

My slightly older relative (female) was dating some guy back in the early 90s and they stopped at the drive-thru for some fast food one time. Afterwards, they were driving along and the guy just throws the bag of finished fast food out his window of the moving car. Relationship terminated immediately. Behavior changed. Social pressure is a non-government solution to these types of problems, along with a little pussy power.

[Rancher]

Lol aluminum may be valuable, and many other kinds of trash, but I'm not so sure that ALL trash would be valuable...
Do you think that it's smart to create trash by the truckloads and bury it? That's what our government run product regulation and trash system does.

IMO, free-market entrepreneurs would have solved the trash problem already, if the markets were only free.

[tjeffersonsghost]

Where were these "libertarian solutions" during the early to mid 20th century"? Most urban areas were cesspools of litter and pollution. You couldnt fish or swim in any lakes or rivers because of the litter and pollution. There was a fog above all major urban areas just like there is in Beijing today. The government sat back and did nothing. The libertarian solution solved nothing. Lakes and rivers literally blew up because someone allowed fire near them and it caught the lakes on fire.

Finally after no libertarian solution ever came to be the government finally stepped in. Now we can fish and even swim in most lakes and rivers. The fog that sits over Beijing does not sit over all of our major cities. There is no where near the litter in major areas there were 30+ years ago. You can talk theory all of you want but the fact is until environmental laws were passed America was what China is today.

[Rancher]

Where were these "libertarian solutions" during the early to mid 20th century"? Most urban areas were cesspools of litter and pollution. You couldnt fish or swim in any lakes or rivers because of the litter and pollution. There was a fog above all major urban areas just like there is in Beijing today. The government sat back and did nothing. The libertarian solution solved nothing. Lakes and rivers literally blew up because someone allowed fire near them and it caught the lakes on fire.

Finally after no libertarian solution ever came to be the government finally stepped in. Now we can fish and even swim in most lakes and rivers. The fog that sits over Beijing does not sit over all of our major cities. There is no where near the litter in major areas there were 30+ years ago. You can talk theory all of you want but the fact is until environmental laws were passed America was what China is today.
Awareness was raised in the 60's and 70's. Understanding our environment worked wonders, but if environmental laws were so good, then why was the BP leak allowed in 2010? Could you be more specific and post the actual laws that worked?

[justinc.1089]

Do you think that it's smart to create trash by the truckloads and bury it? That's what our government run product regulation and trash system does.

IMO, free-market entrepreneurs would have solved the trash problem already, if the markets were only free.


No not at all lol!

I agree entrepreneurs would have solved the trash problem already too!

I'm just saying I doubt all trash would be valuable... but getting rid of it would be profitable, however that would be done. Maybe you get something here that I don't get?

[heavenlyboy34]

Public property is incorrectly named. The more proper term is State-owned property.

Let's look at the problem of this first. How has the State accumulated this property? More often than not it is through gunpoint.

+a zillion!
Privatization of "public" property FTW! :cool:

[heavenlyboy34]

Where were these "libertarian solutions" during the early to mid 20th century"? Most urban areas were cesspools of litter and pollution. You couldnt fish or swim in any lakes or rivers because of the litter and pollution. There was a fog above all major urban areas just like there is in Beijing today. The government sat back and did nothing. The libertarian solution solved nothing. Lakes and rivers literally blew up because someone allowed fire near them and it caught the lakes on fire.

Finally after no libertarian solution ever came to be the government finally stepped in. Now we can fish and even swim in most lakes and rivers. The fog that sits over Beijing does not sit over all of our major cities. There is no where near the litter in major areas there were 30+ years ago. You can talk theory all of you want but the fact is until environmental laws were passed America was what China is today.

Faulty reasoning. The regulations in place at the time (and at this time, in many cases) prevents a libertarian solution from being implemented.

For example, the big lakes here in AZ are "public property". The upkeep thus very expensive because market forces aren't able to work (a disconnect between what the local regime thinks and what actually occurs on the ground)

[tjeffersonsghost]

Awareness was raised in the 60's and 70's. Understanding our environment worked wonders, but if environmental laws were so good, then why was the BP leak allowed in 2010? Could you be more specific and post the actual laws that worked?

Because no matter how many laws you pass you can never prevent everything from happening. You can at least stave some off. That goes for anything.

[justinc.1089]

Where were these "libertarian solutions" during the early to mid 20th century"? Most urban areas were cesspools of litter and pollution. You couldnt fish or swim in any lakes or rivers because of the litter and pollution. There was a fog above all major urban areas just like there is in Beijing today. The government sat back and did nothing. The libertarian solution solved nothing. Lakes and rivers literally blew up because someone allowed fire near them and it caught the lakes on fire.

Finally after no libertarian solution ever came to be the government finally stepped in. Now we can fish and even swim in most lakes and rivers. The fog that sits over Beijing does not sit over all of our major cities. There is no where near the litter in major areas there were 30+ years ago. You can talk theory all of you want but the fact is until environmental laws were passed America was what China is today.



Dude... Beijing has many more environmental/ pollution laws and regulations than we do here...

If you say a certain amount of pollution is legal, you will absolutely have that amount of pollution, and thats the reason for Beijing's pollution problem.

[Rancher]

No not at all lol!

I agree entrepreneurs would have solved the trash problem already too!

I'm just saying I doubt all trash would be valuable... but getting rid of it would be profitable, however that would be done. Maybe you get something here that I don't get?

True, I agree not ALL trash would be valuable, but much of our trash could be used for compost, recycle, and energy. Our actual garbage could be reduced by 90% or more by using packaging that was compostable, clean burning and reusable.

[justinc.1089]

Where were these "libertarian solutions" during the early to mid 20th century"? Most urban areas were cesspools of litter and pollution. You couldnt fish or swim in any lakes or rivers because of the litter and pollution. There was a fog above all major urban areas just like there is in Beijing today. The government sat back and did nothing. The libertarian solution solved nothing. Lakes and rivers literally blew up because someone allowed fire near them and it caught the lakes on fire.

Finally after no libertarian solution ever came to be the government finally stepped in. Now we can fish and even swim in most lakes and rivers. The fog that sits over Beijing does not sit over all of our major cities. There is no where near the litter in major areas there were 30+ years ago. You can talk theory all of you want but the fact is until environmental laws were passed America was what China is today.


Here's an article for you:

http://mises.org/daily/4464


Lots of knowledge in that^

[awake]

This has always been a failure of the "public owned" anything. Since the state has no interest in protecting property, and in practice wishes to destroy and confiscate it when ever and wherever it sees fit, you have one group of 'special people' who force another group of 'non special people', by threats of fine and imprisonment to take care of property that isn't theirs, or, any one's for that matter. Public property is no one's exclusive property, that's the problem... Public property is a nitwit concept that makes no sense at all. The temporary care takers, called politicians, and their crones get to use public property to their own profit.

When property is owned exclusively it has a manager. When it is under some group ownership, everyone who owns the property can not be the manger; you have a direct conflict of interest between all which results in democratic property mismanagement.

[JamalianTheory]

I haven't read this whole thread, but I have to admit I'm guilty of littering.

I dump cigarette butts out onto the street all the time. I don't get the big deal....they're just butts?

I couldn't believe the reaction of one women about a year ago. I was smoking in downtown Chicago right outside of the building at which I worked. I was dressed nicely, looking respectable, I had my briefcase in hand, and I flicked my cigarette butt into the gutter and this woman comes up to me and calls me a litterbug. What?!?!? It's not like I chucked it onto the sidewalk, it was into the gutter and if the city provided ash trays I would have used them.

I get called a litterbug for one 3 gram cigarette butt. It's not like I'm dumping trash onto the sidewalk, god dammit.

What's up with people?

[MelissaWV]

I haven't read this whole thread, but I have to admit I'm guilty of littering.

I dump cigarette butts out onto the street all the time. I don't get the big deal....they're just butts?

I couldn't believe the reaction of one women about a year ago. I was smoking in downtown Chicago right outside of the building at which I worked. I was dressed nicely, looking respectable, I had my briefcase in hand, and I flicked my cigarette butt into the gutter and this woman comes up to me and calls me a litterbug. What?!?!? It's not like I chucked it onto the sidewalk, it was into the gutter and if the city provided ash trays I would have used them.

I get called a litterbug for one 3 gram cigarette butt. It's not like I'm dumping trash onto the sidewalk, god dammit.

What's up with people?

This is part of the problem, ultimately, but it's going to happen with public property regardless. Your same attitude exists for people dumping trash onto the sidewalk. They might say "It's not like I'm dumping medical waste or something." Someone dumping medical waste will probably say something like "I put it in baggies; it's not like the needles are just out and ready to poke someone." This rationalization goes on and on, but without real parameters or custodians of a given area, there's nothing much to refute it other than the laws of the almighty and overbearing State to fix it.

When you introduce private property into the mix, the entire situation changes.

Would you like me to dump out an ashtray in your bathroom sink? In your fridge? Would you like me to track ashes onto your carpet? Would you like cig butts in your shoes? All of those things are ridiculous and violate your property rights, because I'm assuming that you wouldn't really want those things disposed of by me on your property in those manners.

As to what's wrong with dumping cig butts all over the place, it's vile, and it's still pollution, and the water in the gutters does wind up somewhere (and so do the remnants of the cigs) which means they must be dealt with. If you aren't provided with an ashtray when you're smoking outside, the polite thing to do would be to have some means of putting it out and putting it away. One option would be a small smokeless ashtray that you can carry in and out of the building with you. Some folks like a soda or juice or coffee with their smokes, so they just put the butt out in there and then dump the entire cup. There are myriad ways of not dumping your trash off and pretending it's not trash. But all of this is about manners, and shouldn't be about legality.

You're lucky the lady just called you a litterbug (which she'd have a right to even in a lawless society, btw). Some folks would have called the cops on you. Someone saw my mom dumping *WATER* out of a cup one time and called the cops on her for littering. I kid you not. The officer gave her the old "I'll let you off with a warning... this time" speech, which is ridiculous because last time I checked God dumps water on Florida almost every afternoon and He hasn't gotten a citation yet.

[BenIsForRon]

I get called a litterbug for one 3 gram cigarette butt. It's not like I'm dumping trash onto the sidewalk, god dammit.

What do you think happens to the cigarette butt after you throw it in the gutter. Do you think it vanishes?

Trust me, it still exists. Someone will have to clean it up later. Along with the thousands of other cigarette butts and other small pieces of trash that people like you threw into the street. Whether it is private or communal property, you should respect it.

[heavenlyboy34]

This has always been a failure of the "public owned" anything. Since the state has no interest in protecting property, and in practice wishes to destroy and confiscate it when ever and wherever it sees fit, you have one group of 'special people' who force another group of 'non special people', by threats of fine and imprisonment to take care of property that isn't theirs, or, any one's for that matter. Public property is no one's exclusive property, that's the problem... Public property is a nitwit concept that makes no sense at all. The temporary care takers, called politicians, and their crones get to use public property to their own profit.

When property is owned exclusively it has a manager. When it is under some group ownership, everyone who owns the property can not be the manger; you have a direct conflict of interest between all which results in democratic property mismanagement.

This post is full of WIN, sir. Nicely done. :cool: