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View Full Version : The NYC Mosque - Not A Religious Issue?




libertygrl
09-27-2010, 04:36 PM
Would like to hear opinions about this. I've been having an ongoing debate with a conservative tea party member who is also an ex-vietnam vet. We've been going back and forth online for 2 weeks over this. I know there's just no convincing him at this point, but he just gets under my skin and I feel like I have to respond every time he comes back at me with something that just isn't true. Other tea-partiers on the forum are in total agreement (of course), with him as well. (I guess I'm just a glutton for punishment):rolleyes:

After going around in circles trying to weed through all his views, I think the main crux is that he does not recognize Islam as a religion at all - which I guess in his mind, makes the proposed building of the NYC Mosque not a religious issue. But just because HE doesn't accept it as a religion doesn't mean that it isn't one, or that the right to practice it shouldn't be afforded the same protection as other religions under the constitution, right? This is all just ignorance! I even suggested some books to learn the history of Islam and people just jumped on me about it! Here's his post:


I'm trying to convince you:

That the mosk is not a religious issue.

That the individuals pushing for it are not nice people. .

That we shouldn't have this shoved down our throats.

Extremism in other religions? Show me examples of that?

I didn't say that it was in their DNA, but it is in their actions and writings...


Teaching sabotage skills to Al Kay DA? Seems that they wasted a lot of time and money (nothing new). A thousand well trained operatives could bring this country to it's knees in a couple of days using only stuff purchased from any hardware, bodega, drug store, etc.

We seem to be going all over the place. Definitely some confusion here. The bottom line for me is that the building of the mosk :

Is not a freedom of religion issue.

Ron Paul is wrong on this issue.

Ya can't mix oil and water.

Why should I be forced to destroy my traditions for the sake of a small group of newcomers? I'm American and I want my kids and grandkids to enjoy America as much as I have. Shar - ea law ain't American. It ain't Christian and it ain't Jewish. And, it conflicts with the US Constitution.

dannno
09-27-2010, 04:38 PM
His views ain't freedom, they are like oil and water.

If he really believed in what America stands for then he would believe in freedom. PERIOD.

newyearsrevolution08
09-27-2010, 04:40 PM
whether I agree with any religion or not, if they have the property and all local issues are dealt with then who are we to stop anything.

now if that place ends up raising terrorists who do something illegal then deal with it then.

why not arrest every american with a gun JUST IN CASE they decide to use it.

dannno
09-27-2010, 04:42 PM
Fox News co-owner funds Mosque:

http://rawstory.com/rs/2010/0821/fox-shareholder-funded-mosque-imam/

dannno
09-27-2010, 04:55 PM
Fox News co-owner funds Mosque:

http://rawstory.com/rs/2010/0821/fox-shareholder-funded-mosque-imam/


When presenting this, I'd ask him where the evidence is that this mosque is being funded for terrorist purposes. If it leads back to the co-owner of Fox News, then he's going to need to check his source about who told him that terrorists were funding it (probably Fox News), and whether that source can be considered legitimate at that point.

furface
09-27-2010, 05:10 PM
That the mosk is not a religious issue.

You're right. It's a property rights issue.


That the individuals pushing for it are not nice people. .

Really? Says who? Besides, do only "nice" people get to build on their property?


That we shouldn't have this shoved down our throats.

People have a right to do things that you don't like on their property. Claiming otherwise is shoving your biases down innocent people's throats.


Extremism in other religions? Show me examples of that?

You perhaps?


I didn't say that it was in their DNA, but it is in their actions and writings

Examples please.



Teaching sabotage skills to Al Kay DA? Seems that they wasted a lot of time and money (nothing new). A thousand well trained operatives could bring this country to it's knees in a couple of days using only stuff purchased from any hardware, bodega, drug store, etc.

We seem to be going all over the place. Definitely some confusion here. The bottom line for me is that the building of the mosk :

Is not a freedom of religion issue.

You're right again. It's a property rights issue. It's also a free speech issue. Assholes have a right to voice bigoted speech against things like people doing legal things with their property. It's one of those, "they have the right to do it, but it's not responsible" things.


Ron Paul is wrong on this issue.

Ya can't mix oil and water.


Who's the oil and who's the water? I say that people who are against property rights are incompatible with the fundamental ideals of America and its Constitution.


Why should I be forced to destroy my traditions for the sake of a small group of newcomers? I'm American and I want my kids and grandkids to enjoy America as much as I have. Shar - ea law ain't American. It ain't Christian and it ain't Jewish. And, it conflicts with the US Constitution.


You aren't being forced to destroy your traditions. It's someone else's property. You have no right to tell someone else what to do with their property as long as it doesn't materially harm you. Stop trying to steal other people's property. This is socialism for bigots, collectivized hatred.

dannno
09-27-2010, 05:16 PM
^Ya

Stary Hickory
09-27-2010, 05:17 PM
I oppose the Mosque, but like most people I favor no action from government. It is a religous issue, if this guy had wanted to "heal" America like he said he would have backed off this long ago when it became clear that putting a mosque there is offensive to many many Americans.

Since he chose to press the issue therefore I can see that he lying a definitely not doing it to "heal" America. Frankly what business of yours if someone opposes a mosque there in the first place? If they advocate no government action in response then you really have nothing to discuss.

Depressed Liberator
09-27-2010, 05:34 PM
I believe one can simply say that Stary Hickory is wrong on this, just like he is wrong on a lot of other things.

libertygrl
09-27-2010, 05:35 PM
omg! Some of these responses are priceless - esp. the religious extremist one.
May have to borrow it if you don't mind! :D

It's the whole Sharia Law thing that people are freaked out about. This is what I was shown:

YouTube - Muslims pray in the streets of France (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9vm4bv6zk4&feature=player_embedded)

I must admit, this was a little unsettling. But I try to maintain some degree of balance in my views in that of course, extremists should be carefully monitored and that we continue to afford the same Constitutional protections of practicing Muslims as we would anyone else.

Here's what one another guy had to post which seems to be a little more reasonable in his response. But do you think maybe there's some validity to his concerns?:

"During my former involvement in civic affairs, I was invited to attend Mosque services, speak at various services, and have dinner with Muslims. My experiences were very positive and I have maintained my friendship with them. What Joe, myself, and others I believe are saying is that, it is evident, from what is currently happening in Western nations where large populations of Muslims exist, that the power and influence to sway large groups of the Muslim population is in the hands of Islamic fundamentalists who are determined to replace Western culture with Sharia Law, or are rejecting Western culture and propagating the culture of Islam.

We are witnessing the fact that the two cultures, and form of law, are at odds with each other and compromise is difficult if not impossible. The actions of certain Muslims who insist on building the Ground Zero Mosque, for example, and the inaction of those Muslims who maintain their silence creates suspicion that they are in compliance with Islam. In other words, I believe that a significant number of the Muslim community should stand, and be vocal, with the sentiments of Americans who reject the Mosque in order to indicate to us that they are capable of thinking independently rather than theocratically."

BlackTerrel
09-27-2010, 07:35 PM
Here's his post:


I'm trying to convince you:

That the mosk is not a religious issue.

That the individuals pushing for it are not nice people. .

That we shouldn't have this shoved down our throats.

Extremism in other religions? Show me examples of that?

I didn't say that it was in their DNA, but it is in their actions and writings...

Tell him he misspelled Mosque.