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Slutter McGee
09-21-2010, 08:27 AM
To be fair I am not talking about convincing liberals to vote for Paul based on social issues and foreign policy...which should be our primary goal this upcoming election.

I am talking about convincing a liberal that conservative fiscal policy is the way to go.

1. Stop trying to convince them they are wrong for philosphical reasons. Most liberals genuinely care about the poor and the disadvataged. Arguing that income redistribution is theft is unlikely to reach them, no matter how true it is.

2. Explain that income redistribution and ridiculous government control is wrong, not because it is evil, but because it simply doesn't work.

Simple, but I think it is something we all forget. Me especially. I have a convinced a few liberal friends that conservative economic policy is the way to go. But I went philisophical the other day on a friend and lost most hope of reaching her.

Sincerely,

Slutter McGee

Elwar
09-21-2010, 08:29 AM
Stock up...buy a gun...

When the time comes, the liberal will reach out to you.

Use the gun.

Carl Corey
09-21-2010, 09:47 AM
Libertarianism is a fancy alternative word for social darwinism, and at a subconscious level most liberals understand this.

So while you can misguide liberals into believing that libertarianism is gonna make the poor better off, the truth is that there is no cure for poverty and crime as they have hereditary origins, which is why all liberal policies so far have failed miserably, with the possible exception of free abortions, birth control, and long sentences.

Under socialism things will steadily deteriorate as the criminal and poor tend to have higher birthrates, under libertarianism these trends should be lessened or reversed, and the greater freedom is likely to allow genetic manipulation and embryo selection to provide a humane solution of sorts.

Basics truths like these are hard to sell, even to devoted libertarians, though they typically have the decency to consider the world view before outright rejecting it.

Stary Hickory
09-21-2010, 09:49 AM
I heard that liberals like other people's money

give them some - politicians on the left have been doing this for decades

Sentient Void
09-21-2010, 09:53 AM
Agreed, SM. The best thing to do is find a bridge to connect with them one (civil liberties) in what you agree with them... then show them how fiscal conservative policy will achieve their ends much better than otherwise (because we all want increased prosperity and help for the poor, etc).

Liberals are completely unimpressed with the moral/princpled/philosophical arguments... they are only concerned with utility, unfortunately.

However, liberty not only is the most moral and logically consistent solution - but the most practical and utilitarian as well.

If you can convert them to at least consequential libertarians or put them on the road to it - then I'd say that's a damned job well done.

Falling into the Hegelian Dialectic will only push everyone apart more and not solve anything. Liberty is universal - and it just comes down to understanding and knowledge.

teacherone
09-21-2010, 10:05 AM
there must be an easy way to illustrate the growth of government, the growth of the defense budget, and the growth of income inequality, in easy to see graph form that even a liberal can grasp.

Stary Hickory
09-21-2010, 10:09 AM
History should be enough, we have had a steady progressive growth of government for a 100 years and things have gotten only worse and worse. As a general rule this should be enough to get them thinking....if they are able.

freshjiva
09-21-2010, 10:16 AM
Good thread. I agree with Slutter that most grassroots liberals really are concerned about the poor and marginalized.

One way to talk to the Left about a true free market that Ron Paul and the Austrian School talks about is the separation of big government and big business, much like the separation of Church and State. We don't really have a free market today because of all the limited liability laws and corporate welfare made available through massive government programs like Fannie/Freddie and the Fed's discount window. Big banks win every time.

The Left see Wall Street and big corporations as the enemy, when in fact its the big government programs set up by both Dems and Republicans that facilitate this corporate welfare.

If we had a true free market, we would NEVER have passed TARP/bailouts that made Wall Street rich but left the American taxpayers in the dust.

Deborah K
09-21-2010, 10:16 AM
Show them this:

YouTube - -DVD Version: INTRO - Individualism vs Collectivism (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMYicq_SN1E)

Stary Hickory
09-21-2010, 10:17 AM
Show them this:

YouTube - -DVD Version: INTRO - Individualism vs Collectivism (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMYicq_SN1E)

They don't respond to morality. Which rather scares me that people like that live in this country. Methinks what makes them not do this openly with people on a personal basis? Probably the fear they would get their ass kicked for doing it.

Deborah K
09-21-2010, 10:24 AM
They don't respond to morality. Which rather scares me that people like that live in this country. Methinks what makes them not do this openly with people on a personal basis? Probably the fear they would get their ass kicked for doing it.

The first requirement of every liberal is for them to explain from where their rights come. If they say they come from the government, then you can nail them against the wall using the individualist vs. collectivist argument i.e. if the gov't gives them, then the gov't can take them away, etc. If they think their rights are natural or God-given, and that gov't is here to protect our rights, not grant them, then you nail them on the government taking them away through things like redistribution (collectivism) vs. charity (individualism).

Stary Hickory
09-21-2010, 10:28 AM
The first requirement of every liberal is for them to explain from where their rights come. If they say they come from the government, then you can nail them against the wall using the individualist vs. collectivist argument i.e. if the gov't gives them, then the gov't can take them away, etc. If they think their rights are natural or God-given, and that gov't is here to protect our rights, not grant them, then you nail them on the government taking them away through things like redistribution (collectivism) vs. charity (individualism).

They simply won't debate you on it. I have tried. They just refuse to answer the question. I can get independents to debate but a hardened liberal will not answer th questions honestly.

Typically they start saying what do we do with X person who is poor, or Y person who is unemployed. And I am always telling them that stealing and destroying the social structure that supports our society is not the answer. They get angry at this point...but maybe some of them will come around.

Because I always point out that every solution they propose is violence and theft. It wounds them because they like to think of themselves as "civilized" but they offer the most ignorant and barbaric solution to every thing.

Southron
09-21-2010, 10:29 AM
They don't respond to morality. Which rather scares me that people like that live in this country. Methinks what makes them not do this openly with people on a personal basis? Probably the fear they would get their ass kicked for doing it.

The ones who don't respond to morality would probably be the first to slit your throat in a crisis if it meant they didn't go hungry.

If they have any real concern for the poor then I bet you could find a moral argument that works on them.

Deborah K
09-21-2010, 11:01 AM
They simply won't debate you on it. I have tried. They just refuse to answer the question. I can get independents to debate but a hardened liberal will not answer th questions honestly.

Typically they start saying what do we do with X person who is poor, or Y person who is unemployed. And I am always telling them that stealing and destroying the social structure that supports our society is not the answer. They get angry at this point...but maybe some of them will come around.

Because I always point out that every solution they propose is violence and theft. It wounds them because they like to think of themselves as "civilized" but they offer the most ignorant and barbaric solution to every thing.

I have never had any luck changing hearts and minds by making people feel attacked for their beliefs by telling them that what they propose is violence and theft. If they believe the govt's function is to help the poor, it's up to us to explain that it's OUR job to help the poor, and that if the gov't would keep its hands out of our pockets and out of our businesses, we would have all the the money we'd need to help them. And we wouldn't give them a fish for a day, we'd teach them HOW to fish for a lifetime. This is the difference between a free country and a gov't controlled country. Our govt's only function is to protect our rights - anything beyond that is tyranny and a complete subversion of the Constitution.

Slutter McGee
09-21-2010, 11:31 AM
I generally praise the idea of voluntary socialism as a great idea. But an idea. I actually don't like the idea or agree with it...but what is a little lying. And then I explain why government forced socialism just wont work. And go from there.

Getting in a philosphical argument with a hardened liberal is fun if they are willing to debate. But I have no illusions about being able to change their minds.

Sincerely,

Slutter McGee

Slutter McGee
09-21-2010, 11:32 AM
Good thread. I agree with Slutter that most grassroots liberals really are concerned about the poor and marginalized.

One way to talk to the Left about a true free market that Ron Paul and the Austrian School talks about is the separation of big government and big business, much like the separation of Church and State. We don't really have a free market today because of all the limited liability laws and corporate welfare made available through massive government programs like Fannie/Freddie and the Fed's discount window. Big banks win every time.

The Left see Wall Street and big corporations as the enemy, when in fact its the big government programs set up by both Dems and Republicans that facilitate this corporate welfare.

If we had a true free market, we would NEVER have passed TARP/bailouts that made Wall Street rich but left the American taxpayers in the dust.

good approach

Slutter McGee

wormyguy
09-21-2010, 11:37 AM
Conservatives are possible to convince. I have reached the conclusion that liberals are impossible to convince using any line of reasoning. They have to find it on their own.

All moral/philosophical arguments are evil, and so are you. The only economic statistic that matters is inequality, even if everyone in one country is increasing their wealth faster than in another. Every government program is unsuccessful because it doesn't go far enough. Because Paul Krugman says so, it must be true, and if you disagree, you are a stupid ideologue, incapable of understanding Paul Krugman. Not helping poor people/minorities/women is morally equivalent to hurting them, and therefore anyone who advocates not helping them is racist/sexist etc. They're going to interpret the Constitution however they want to, and original intent doesn't matter because the founders were old white men. Besides, the Constitution was written in an agrarian society, and therefore does not apply to today.

It's kind of hopeless.

newyearsrevolution08
09-21-2010, 11:38 AM
stop focusing on how different our views are and focus on making friends

it makes introducing new ideas far easier than trying to prove a stranger wrong.

Deborah K
09-21-2010, 11:51 AM
stop focusing on how different our views are and focus on making friends

it makes introducing new ideas far easier than trying to prove a stranger wrong.

I don't anyone is trying to convince strangers. I think we're talking about the liberal friends, relatives and associates in our lives.

AuH20
09-21-2010, 11:51 AM
Modern day liberals are very authoritarian in dictating required roles for everyone and setting up quantitative contributions for each class, for which they deem appropriate. Some are most of the elitist people you'll ever come across. Secondly, as previous posters mentioned, some are literally brain damaged over the concept of inequality and will gladly destroy civilization in exchange for an opportunity achieve this unattainable goal. For all their supposed intelligence, they are very immature in their world view.

Theocrat
09-21-2010, 12:00 PM
To be fair I am not talking about convincing liberals to vote for Paul based on social issues and foreign policy...which should be our primary goal this upcoming election.

I am talking about convincing a liberal that conservative fiscal policy is the way to go.

1. Stop trying to convince them they are wrong for philosphical reasons. Most liberals genuinely care about the poor and the disadvataged. Arguing that income redistribution is theft is unlikely to reach them, no matter how true it is.

2. Explain that income redistribution and ridiculous government control is wrong, not because it is evil, but because it simply doesn't work.

Simple, but I think it is something we all forget. Me especially. I have a convinced a few liberal friends that conservative economic policy is the way to go. But I went philisophical the other day on a friend and lost most hope of reaching her.

Sincerely,

Slutter McGee

In my personal experience, the typical liberal has been corrupted by his education, and thus, he or she will always presume their arguments and means for advancing society are right and proper. The only solution to change their hearts (if they do not repent first) is for them to watch their world crumble before their very eyes.

The current condition of our nation, whether it's in economic stability or civil liberties, has been influenced and dominated by liberal philosophies/policies. The result of it all is that society is not getting better but worse. For all the increased government intervention, it has a negative net effect of making our country into the utopia which liberals preach and promise to the masses.

Liberals must see the empirical ends of their views before they are open to new ideas. It is my belief when all of their luxuries and well-being have been taken from them (by their own policies) that they will amend their ways. That is what usually happens in, say, Communistic regimes after everything falls. The leaders usually kill themselves, are assassinated, or step down, and the people look for alternative ways to change their condition.

Wren
09-21-2010, 03:32 PM
I usually just ask them what their priorties are. What are they most interested in voting for?

Are they more interested in

- Legalized drugs and prostitution
- Patriot Act ended
- Both wars ended
- Global empire ended
- CIA ended
- Gitmo shut down
- Funding to Israel (and every other nation) cut off
- Voting for someone with more than 3 decades of consistency under his belt so it's certain that he won't sell us out

or their government run welfare state?


They tend to have a tough time choosing but for me, it's a no brainer

Humanae Libertas
09-21-2010, 03:52 PM
Mostly all Liberals are for ending bailouts for Corporations, just start from there.

It's not easy to convince Liberals, not only are they for regulating the economy, they are for some government control over your life. The Modern liberals are for big government.

Anti Federalist
09-21-2010, 06:00 PM
Totally off topic...

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/image.php?u=17785&dateline=1283835739

Great Avatar.

In the hall of fame right alongside one of my other favorites:

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i304/Truth_Warrior/TruthWarrior.jpg

oyarde
09-21-2010, 07:08 PM
Good thread. I agree with Slutter that most grassroots liberals really are concerned about the poor and marginalized.

One way to talk to the Left about a true free market that Ron Paul and the Austrian School talks about is the separation of big government and big business, much like the separation of Church and State. We don't really have a free market today because of all the limited liability laws and corporate welfare made available through massive government programs like Fannie/Freddie and the Fed's discount window. Big banks win every time.

The Left see Wall Street and big corporations as the enemy, when in fact its the big government programs set up by both Dems and Republicans that facilitate this corporate welfare.

If we had a true free market, we would NEVER have passed TARP/bailouts that made Wall Street rich but left the American taxpayers in the dust.

Democrats make more poor and marginalized . " Socialism , bringing stupidity and poverty , one country at a time "

Sentient Void
09-21-2010, 10:49 PM
Totally off topic...

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/image.php?u=17785&dateline=1283835739

Great Avatar.

In the hall of fame right alongside one of my other favorites:

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i304/Truth_Warrior/TruthWarrior.jpg

;-D