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ProBlue33
09-06-2010, 09:18 AM
Often Ron Paul has said we have put up with the garbage when we allow total freedom, with no state regulations. But if it advocates behavior that is against human decency and seriously harms other members of society, I have to question that.

Here is the issue.

Should a manual, of a how-to to do child molestation be allowed?
Does that cross the line in freedom of speech?

http://abcnews.go.com/US/manual-molest-children-legal-cops/story?id=11561609

Thoughts?

I have to say no, ANYTHING that encourages and advises other people how to abuse children should not be allowed.

bwlibertyman
09-06-2010, 09:36 AM
I think that it doesn't cross the line. I'm comparing it to a "how to make a bomb" manual. The manual is used to make a bomb that will inevitably blow up and kill people unless it's unleashed in an unoccupied part of the world. I think there's a difference between speech that tells you how to do something and actually doing it. I would never buy this molestation manual but I think people should have the freedom to.

It comes down to the slippery slope. Should we outlaw tons of things that tell you how to commit violence. If we look at the private property aspect none is being harmed. It is pure information. Reminds me of how it's legal to grow poppies. It's legal to have a book on how to make opium but it's illegal to have both at the same time. I could be wrong on this last statement but I'm pretty sure I read it somewhere.

Back to the topic. I think it should be legal. It is free speech. A book can't damage someones property. Knowledge will always be knowledge. It depends on what one does with that knowledge.

dean.engelhardt
09-06-2010, 09:43 AM
Here the free market can be more effective than the state or laws. imagine the publicity the publisher will receive. Would you buy any book this publisher sold?

bwlibertyman
09-06-2010, 09:45 AM
Here the free market can be more effective than the state or laws. imagine the publicity the publisher will receive. Would you buy any book this publisher sold?

That's a great point.

angelatc
09-06-2010, 10:28 AM
Seriously? You don't find it ironic that you started a conversation about limiting human rights with a Naziesque book ban?

pcosmar
09-06-2010, 10:40 AM
The SCOTUS has put a limit on Free Speech when it causes enormous dangers to society, such as publishing in a newspaper how to build explosives etc.

Really.
I remember in high school reading a guide to building a nuclear device,,complete with schematics.

It was widely available, but I do not remember a rash of nukes being detonated.

p.s. high-school was a long time ago.

nayjevin
09-06-2010, 10:49 AM
Should a manual, of a how-to to do child molestation be allowed?

There is a better question: How will a how-to-molest manual be received by an unregulated market? IOW, identify the problem. If people effectively shun such an occurence -- if natural human action reacts to such a manual to neutralize its potential negative social impact -- no problem exists.

Those who would enact a law would necessarily argue that natural human action itself would not suffice to maintain acceptable control over impact to society of such a manual. The burden of proof is to both identify the problem and show that a law would solve it.

It can be argued that the natural human reactions to such a manual would be more effective than law.

pcosmar
09-06-2010, 10:57 AM
I don't think a book is needed (on child molesting), I believe that the information is handed down among the various Secret Societies.

It may be in a CIA manual,,but Wikileaks hasn't gotten that one yet. ;)
(it was common under MK-Ultra)

Warrior_of_Freedom
09-06-2010, 11:16 AM
Wut? This book supports criminal activity, of course it should be banned. The author should also go to jail, what a sick fuck.

coastie
09-06-2010, 11:21 AM
Wut? This book supports criminal activity, of course it should be banned. The author should also go to jail, what a sick fuck.

:confused: The question was whether free speech should be limited here-and I beg to differ.

The other responses already covered this, but the book, nor the author committed a crime here. Would you read, buy or promote this book? Good, then what the fuck is the problem????

pcosmar
09-06-2010, 11:31 AM
Deputies believe whoever is responsible may have committed crimes against children

Then prove that and find him. That is what should be done. That is the job.
Period.

I personally question the sick fuck that is searching porn sites and joining lists.

phill4paul
09-06-2010, 11:37 AM
I couldn't care less what someone wants to write and publish. I couldn't care less what other people want to read.

What does cause me to wonder is why authorities want to track down the individual that wrote this manual because they "believe" he may have molested children. Even though they admit that the manual itself is not illegal.

I have come across some pretty explicit "how-to" manuals for bomb making and "how-to" kill other humans both with and without weapons. Are we to believe the writers of these manuals have killed other human beings and therefore need to be investigated?

Personally I think this individual, even though his writings may be considered sick to the great majority of society, may have actually done a great service. Every parent, if they care about their child's welfare, should put it on their reading list. Learn the techniques used by molesters and thus learn to safe guard their children.

phill4paul
09-06-2010, 11:38 AM
The SCOTUS has put a limit on Free Speech when it causes enormous dangers to society, such as publishing in a newspaper how to build explosives etc.

SCROTUS is one of the problems.

angelatc
09-06-2010, 11:39 AM
The SCOTUS has put a limit on Free Speech when it causes enormous dangers to society, such as publishing in a newspaper how to build explosives etc.

SCOTUS is just another branch of government, that can't be trusted to protect liberty.

erowe1
09-06-2010, 11:40 AM
Wut? This book supports criminal activity, of course it should be banned. The author should also go to jail.

Is this sarcasm?

Or are you seriously giving as reasons for banning the book and putting its author in jail that:
1) the book supports something illegal;
and
2) the author is sick.
?

Obviously both those things are true. But is there some way in your mind that those reasons really support the conclusion that we should have the kind of government that bans books that support illegal things and that jails people who write them?

erowe1
09-06-2010, 11:41 AM
The SCOTUS has put a limit on Free Speech when it causes enormous dangers to society, such as publishing in a newspaper how to build explosives etc.

You mention this as an example of SCOTUS doing something bad. Right?

pcosmar
09-06-2010, 11:42 AM
Personally I think this individual, even though his writings may be considered sick to the great majority of society, may have actually done a great service. Every parent, if they care about their child's welfare, should put it on their reading list. Learn the techniques used by molesters and thus learn to safe guard their children.

A most excellent point.

2young2vote
09-06-2010, 11:46 AM
No, but maybe there is a way it can be used to catch the perverts.

bruce leeroy
09-06-2010, 11:53 AM
http://findlaydonnan.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/pedobear-seal-of-approval2.jpg

Matt Collins
09-06-2010, 12:31 PM
Do guns kill people, or do people who use them irresponsibly kill people? Who/what causes harm? Who / what is guilty?

Promontorium
09-06-2010, 12:43 PM
ANYTHING that encourages and advises other people how to abuse children should not be allowed.

All caps yours, mein führer.


So if a person writes an autobiography about being molested, their book should be burned.

I won't put a question mark there. Your All-caps won't let me.



Here are my all-caps: NOTHING I WRITE CAN FORCE YOU TO DO BAD THINGS. NOT EVEN A PERFECT MANUAL TO COMMIT EVIL WILL FORCE YOU TO ACT. YOU CAN NOT PASS THE BLAME FOR YOUR ACTIONS.

PatriotOne
09-06-2010, 01:13 PM
Personally I think this individual, even though his writings may be considered sick to the great majority of society, may have actually done a great service. Every parent, if they care about their child's welfare, should put it on their reading list. Learn the techniques used by molesters and thus learn to safe guard their children.

Worthy of a 2nd recognition :)

ProBlue33
09-06-2010, 01:30 PM
All caps yours, mein führer.


So if a person writes an autobiography about being molested, their book should be burned.

I won't put a question mark there. Your All-caps won't let me.



Here are my all-caps: NOTHING I WRITE CAN FORCE YOU TO DO BAD THINGS. NOT EVEN A PERFECT MANUAL TO COMMIT EVIL WILL FORCE YOU TO ACT. YOU CAN NOT PASS THE BLAME FOR YOUR ACTIONS.

As to the autobiography why would that be banned that is the victim telling a personal story.

My problem with the absolutes of the liberty and freedom movement is there are no lines that can be crossed in many people minds, as illustrated from some of these posts.

Total absolute freedom eventually leads to chaos and anarchy. And then our freedoms are taken from us.

pcosmar
09-06-2010, 01:34 PM
Total absolute freedom eventually leads to chaos and anarchy. And then our freedoms are taken from us.

I disagree. Authoritarianism leads to a loss of freedom every time.

Freedom leads to prosperity.

And yes, there are lines that are not to be crossed. Absolutely.
1st amendment
2nd amendment.
etc.
:cool:

erowe1
09-06-2010, 01:35 PM
As to the autobiography why would that be banned that is the victim telling a personal story.

My problem with the absolutes of the liberty and freedom movement is there are no lines that can be crossed in many people minds, as illustrated from some of these posts.

Total absolute freedom eventually leads to chaos and anarchy. And then our freedoms are taken from us.

If by "total absolute freedom" you mean being allowed to violate others' rights, then I didn't see any posts here advocating that. Did you?

If by "total absolute freedom" you mean freedom to do anything as long as you don't violate anyone else's rights, then that doesn't sound like chaos to me. Does it to you?

phill4paul
09-06-2010, 01:43 PM
Total absolute freedom eventually leads to chaos and anarchy. And then our freedoms are taken from us.

Total absolute subjection leads to stability and control. And then freedoms are afforded us based on capitulation. ;)

pcosmar
09-06-2010, 01:50 PM
ProBlue33

I would be curious as to your response to this thread.
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=259512

Seems you may have some in common with the subject.

ProBlue33
09-06-2010, 03:32 PM
ProBlue33

I would be curious as to your response to this thread.
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=259512

Seems you may have some in common with the subject.

The guy defended himself and his wife from a deranged off duty cop, I don't have any issue with it. Self-Defense.

Back on topic, manuals that teach people how to harm the most vulnerable parts of our society are not productive.

This guy "the Mule" should be hunted down and identified just like 4chan did with that girl from Bosnia who chucked all those puppies into the river.

Not encouraging vigilantism, just public shame with clear identification, to see some sort of psychological justice play out at the very least.

Kregisen
09-06-2010, 03:36 PM
Back on topic, manuals that teach people how to harm the most vulnerable parts of our society are not productive.

So you think drugs, TV, video games, beer, comedians and music should all be banned? :confused:

Let's ban everything except food, transportation and shelter....everything else is unproductive and therefore should be banned.

teacherone
09-06-2010, 03:41 PM
Ban CSI???

http://ld095.k12.sd.us/csi-miami.jpg

You try it buddy...

Anti Federalist
09-06-2010, 04:01 PM
Personally I think this individual, even though his writings may be considered sick to the great majority of society, may have actually done a great service. Every parent, if they care about their child's welfare, should put it on their reading list. Learn the techniques used by molesters and thus learn to safe guard their children.

I'll "third" that.

Well done Phil, an excellent point illustrating why even the most horrid of subjects can bring knowledge.

Scary to see the latent book burners come out of the woodwork around here. :(

Golding
09-06-2010, 04:08 PM
Really.
I remember in high school reading a guide to building a nuclear device,,complete with schematics.

It was widely available, but I do not remember a rash of nukes being detonated.

p.s. high-school was a long time ago.I agree with this post. A so-called how-to book doesn't mean it'll actually convince people to molest kids, and banning the book won't stop those who actually have the desire to do it.

erowe1
09-06-2010, 04:25 PM
Not encouraging vigilantism, just public shame with clear identification, to see some sort of psychological justice play out at the very least.

If that's all you're talking about, then I'm right there with you.

Matt Collins
09-06-2010, 04:48 PM
Personally I think this individual, even though his writings may be considered sick to the great majority of society, may have actually done a great service. Every parent, if they care about their child's welfare, should put it on their reading list. Learn the techniques used by molesters and thus learn to safe guard their children.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_hat

ProBlue33
09-06-2010, 04:52 PM
If that's all you're talking about, then I'm right there with you.

This thread has made me meditate on this whole topic.

So we allow this guy his freedom to publish this information, but then it's our turn at freedom; which is to find him, identify him and publish a full page ad with picture in his towns newspaper about what he has published.

How's that freedom cutting both ways for you guys, that work?

Anti Federalist
09-06-2010, 05:02 PM
This thread has made me meditate on this whole topic.

So we allow this guy his freedom to publish this information, but then it's our turn at freedom; which is to find him, identify him and publish a full page ad with picture in his towns newspaper about what he has published.

How's that freedom cutting both ways for you guys, that work?

Works for me.

awake
09-06-2010, 05:18 PM
Manuals that describe how to harm the youngest and most vulnerable are already in existence, widely published, and demonstrated with impeccable discipline.

These books are military manuals and foreign policy manuals, How to shoot, imprison, control and destroy the most vulnerable - men , women and children alike. These books are written for predators too, yet not one reservation of the books or their contents.

let me show you the face of a predictor who has followed by the book... If her victims were given the choice of extermination or molestation by their controllers; which do you think they would have chosen?

YouTube - Madeleine Albright - 60 Minutes (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FbIX1CP9qr4)

tangent4ronpaul
09-06-2010, 05:41 PM
I'm stunned that someone could come up with 170 pages of advice/instruction on how to molest children.

More to the freedom of speech aspects of this thread, does anyone remember the court case about the book "Hit Man" that Paladin press published? It seems someone used that as an instruction manual and killed someone as part of a murder for hire plot. It was supposedly written by a professional assassin but it came out in court that the author was a granny who loved crime drama's and murder mysteries and that's where she learned everything she put in the book. As such, it's possible, though unlikely due to what the cops were saying, that the author of this book is a huge fan of Law & Order - Special Victims Unit and never laid their hands on a child. Paladin, the publisher, stopped publishing that kind of literature and bomb books, not because of any law or the courts, but rather because their insurance company threatened to drop them if they didn't and no one else would cover them.

This also points out the issue of accuracy for much of the literature in this genre. Gerald L. Hurst has stated that most of the stuff in the "bomb books" simply does not work, as have others who would know. There are a few that are better than others, but most are pure garbage. Who the heck is Gerald L. Hurst? He's a propellant chemist with a PhD. He's done a lot of consulting as an expert witness/consultant for arson investigations/trials, has a career working in explosives labs, did quite a bit of work for the CIA and the Special Forces and is one of the inventors of the Astrolite family of explosives. If you are curious, check out this link:

http://yarchive.net/explosives/hydrazine.html

Speaking of Astrolite, Desert Publications put out a pamphlet on super high power explosives that cover that family of explosives. They hype Astrolite A-1-5 as "The most powerful non-nuclear explosive in existence". It isn't. Again, see the link above. Desert Publications under it's original owner was the "technical publishing house" for Robert Depug's(sp?) Minuteman organization during the 60's and 70's. The feds tested a bunch of the weapons/explosives designs the Minuteman organization had put together and they didn't work either. The IMH (Improvised Munitions Handbook - aka Black Book) is generally considered one of the more accurate out there, but even here, it comes up lacking. I know the chemist that did most of the explosives R&D for that publication and have read a good number of the contractor and technical reports that led up to it. He is not Gerald L. Hurst. For starters, almost all of the explosives in the manual are nitric acid based. his started with the extraction of KNO3 from soil - a method that has nor been used since the civil war w/ slave labor, as the yeild is pathetic. Maybe better with access to bat caves with tons of guana. Then they tried to make nitric acid. The yield and concentration was in a word - pathetic. So they demonstrated their ability to produce basic chems. Then they got the chem supply companies on speed dial and ordered tech grade chems for further experiments to actually make explosives... Getting the pic yet? There was a lot of research that didn't make into the handbook. A low explosive that was based on pipe tobacco - but only one brand worked. Making white phosphorus - something very unpleasant to handle. I have a copy of the contractors report - something the gvmt has "lost" :D the candy rocket studies - something a leader in the high power rocket community applied for but was rejected for because he didn't have a BS. Fucked up contracting rules. There is a lot more here... 2 Congressional inquiries, an army intelligence investigation, some classified literature falling off the back of a truck and finding it's way to right wing publishing houses, a worker at a federal research lab offering up material that had been rejected for inclusion in the manual - and so on... I think I have mentiond this before, but when I was younger - I worked as a lab tech for an ordnance lab. Tim Lewis's "kitchen improvised" books are pretty good, as are James Glacksons books - though one is impossible to find. I can't recommend anything else. Well, PATR-7100 is good and available as a torrent. It's HUGE - literally an encyclopedia. It was a standard ref at my former job....

I didn't mean to get so off topic - but ppl did mention "bomb books". Sorry, but I digressed. I was researching the history of this project and actually got permission from the army to access federal record repositories to review the relevant materials. I wanted to do an artical, or ideally a book on it. Then 9/11 happened.... There were a couple of Congressional inquiries about it, a military intelligence investigation, and so on - interesting story. THe guy tht ran the lab I mentioned before was a total BSer and did an artical for Playboy - - after his death his son did wrote a book called "Mr Death" - both are entertaining reading - but don't take them seriously.

Back on topic. I posted this before, but it was a thread killer. Previously, I was in favor of banning Grand Theft Auto (game) but have changed my mind. Penn says something I completely agree with:

YouTube - Japanese Rape Game (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ACSsUhFk7I)

We need free speech and I don't think this promotes people to enguage in socially abhorent habavior.

-t

Kylie
09-06-2010, 06:19 PM
I'm in favor of the freedom of speech(press).

Even the bad parts.

phill4paul
09-06-2010, 06:21 PM
This thread has made me meditate on this whole topic.

So we allow this guy his freedom to publish this information, but then it's our turn at freedom; which is to find him, identify him and publish a full page ad with picture in his towns newspaper about what he has published.

How's that freedom cutting both ways for you guys, that work?

Works fine by me as long as my tax dollars aren't going towards it.:)

tangent4ronpaul
09-06-2010, 07:20 PM
Anyone find this book yet?

WTF is in it???? - Seems like the false flag terrorism BS!


-t

BlackTerrel
09-06-2010, 07:26 PM
I'm usually a staunch defender of free speech but this is getting really close to the line.

I could come down either way on this. We don't have enough info on what is actually in this to make a final assessment.

TheBlackPeterSchiff
09-06-2010, 08:43 PM
Its not even a question. If I want to make a book on how to bang your mother, I can. Yes it is horrible and disgusting but if you want to have free country this is what happens. I rather that than someone telling me what I can and cannot read or write.

The fact is in a free society businesses would have a right not to publish that book or sell it, and ISP's would have the right to block that particular website if they want to. But it should not be illegal, and I hate child molestors.

tangent4ronpaul
09-06-2010, 09:40 PM
Its not even a question. If I want to make a book on how to bang your mother, I can. Yes it is horrible and disgusting but if you want to have free country this is what happens. I rather that than someone telling me what I can and cannot read or write.

The fact is in a free society businesses would have a right not to publish that book or sell it, and ISP's would have the right to block that particular website if they want to. But it should not be illegal, and I hate child molestors.

WhOO HOO!

Yeah - totally bang yer manna - well, I'm personally not into granny panties.... :(

"child molestation" - above or below puberty and how close to 18? Just curious - the American psych association has something to say about this....

You do realize that certain OTHER contries like Holland and Denmark let "jailbait" perform in "adult" vids and mags at somewhere around 14-16yo - right?

So what exactly is "Kiddy porn"....

What exactly is a "child"????

=t

BlackTerrel
09-07-2010, 01:56 AM
Its not even a question. If I want to make a book on how to bang your mother, I can. Yes it is horrible and disgusting but if you want to have free country this is what happens. I rather that than someone telling me what I can and cannot read or write.

But there wouldn't be a book on how to bang your mother because it wouldn't be any different than banging someone else.

In this case I am assuming there are details in this book that would assist someone in molesting a child. Or maybe even some details that someone who hadn't molested a child wouldn't know??? I'm speculating.

I would treat it on an individual basis. But whatever the line is whoever wrote this book is getting really really close.

TheBlackPeterSchiff
09-07-2010, 09:41 AM
But there wouldn't be a book on how to bang your mother because it wouldn't be any different than banging someone else.

In this case I am assuming there are details in this book that would assist someone in molesting a child. Or maybe even some details that someone who hadn't molested a child wouldn't know??? I'm speculating.

I would treat it on an individual basis. But whatever the line is whoever wrote this book is getting really really close.


Close to what. You either have Free Speech, or you dont. There is no gray area!

tjeffersonsghost
09-07-2010, 09:45 AM
I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty, than those attending too small a degree of it.

Thomas Jefferson

Im just sayin...

BlackTerrel
09-07-2010, 03:31 PM
Close to what. You either have Free Speech, or you dont. There is no gray area!

But there is. I can't

1. Scream "fire" in a crowded theater.

2. Say "I am going to kill TheBlackPeterSchiff"

3. Say "TheBlackPeterSchiff" fucks goats. Unless I have evidence that this was the case.

All three of those would rightly get me in trouble with the law.

MelissaWV
09-07-2010, 03:47 PM
But there wouldn't be a book on how to bang your mother because it wouldn't be any different than banging someone else.

In this case I am assuming there are details in this book that would assist someone in molesting a child. Or maybe even some details that someone who hadn't molested a child wouldn't know??? I'm speculating.

I would treat it on an individual basis. But whatever the line is whoever wrote this book is getting really really close.

I have no problem with the book being published. Of course, I doubt the publisher would publish this book to begin with. I doubt any stores would carry it. I doubt many websites, other than those looking to simply become notorious or that cater to that kind of behavior, would advertise it. All in all, it seems like it's not a very worthwhile venture from a monetary standpoint. Additionally, people will know who you are, and it's unlikely to be the sort of book that gains you much acclaim.

Now, to the bolded part. Such a book being published would RIGHTFULLY bring the author under scrutiny. This is along the lines of when OJ Simpson put out that lovely "If I Did It..." book. People didn't really see it as a thoughtful critique of a crime he had nothing to do with. If you publish a book called "How To Molest Children," people are going to question your interest in the subject and how you came to your expertise. This in and of itself is a reason to not write/publish the book in the first place.

The book itself harms no one, unless the author arrived at their expertise via firsthand acts (and in that case, they would be prosecuted for those acts, not the book). Society needs to be more interested in punishing actions than thoughts and words.

As to your examples, I agree that those are current limitations on speech, however I don't find that it's rational that they get you into legal trouble.

If you yell "fire" in a crowded theater, and there is no fire, you should be liable for any damage your joke or error caused.

If you say you are going to kill me, and yet I remain alive, then your words did nothing. If you say you are going to kill me, and I die, then your words can become evidence. Saying you're going to kill someone shouldn't be against the law. It should serve as warning to that person, who is free to seek protection of some sort. It also behooves you not to go around saying you want to kill people because, at some point, someone is going to die, and if you didn't do it you're still going to look mighty guilty to a casual observer.

If you say I fuck goats, and you have no proof, then the vast majority of people are not going to believe you (unless I have a history that makes them inclined to think such of me). If I am harmed by your words, in that perhaps my employer hates animal cruelty and lets me go because they believe I have fucked goats and harmed them in so doing, I should be able to take the matter to court and sue you for damages. The entire thing could even help clear my good name, at which point my employer might realize their mistake and hire me back.

None of those three things should lead to criminal prosecution merely for the words spoken. Only the actions (which may or may not arise from the words) should be punished by law.