How do you sell liberty to a state worker?

[RCA]

If one earns their livelihood from the state (federal, state or local), how are they supposed to want to vote or fight for liberty if it means they would lose their job? I think this is our number one stumbling block. We can just tell them, "yes, we know you'd lose your source of income, but liberty would be best for the greater good". Sound familiar? We don't want to become our own worst enemy.

[Austrian Econ Disciple]

If one earns their livelihood from the state (federal, state or local), how are they supposed to want to vote or fight for liberty if it means they would lose their job? I think this is our number one stumbling block. We can just tell them, "yes, we know you'd lose your source of income, but liberty would be best for the greater good". Sound familiar? We don't want to become our own worst enemy.

It depends what is more important to them; a paycheck or their liberty (Government workers after-all aren't part of the ruling elites who get to have all the freedom and all the privilege). In the event of the government worker, I find it is more beneficial to take the utilitarian approach. Use the work of Mises, de Jasay, Bastiat, etc.

[DamianTV]

If the government collapses due to its own irresponsibility, how stable is that paycheck looking now?

The truly free economic society, a government worker probably wouldnt have a government job to begin with. They wouldnt have a fear of being laid off from any job. And if they did, they could afford to take a couple of months off before going back to work, all without social aids.

[akforme]

my in-laws are federal government workers, and they love government. Hell he lost his hearing in one ear in Vietnam, he knows the war was fought on a lie, but still trusts government. He hated bush but loves Obama even tho he does all things he hated about Bush. I gave him "Confessions of an Economic Hitman" a few weeks ago, I figure baby steps but I don't have much hope, he probably never will be able to see what I see.

[free1]

You got better things to do.

Most people think "whats in it for me" when ever you talk to them about politics.

When you are dealing with their government pension benefits you are going to lose. All they want is to hardly do any real work and retire with that juicy free paycheck every month, damn everyone else, or the Republic.

[cindy25]

their children

[YumYum]

Why would they have to lose their job? Did somebody make up a new rule while I wasn't looking?

[bricklayer]

I have a lot of thoughts on this.

1) State workers frequently flow between agencies, so job security may not be as big a concern as it may seem. Many also move to the private sector, especially after they retire.

2) Less federal regulation means more autonomy at the state and local level (thinking of Department of Transportation employees who might appreciate less federal blackmailing)

3) Lower federal spending may lead to more consumption (and more sales tax revenue)


A lot of the conversation also depends on the type of state worker. Some state workers' sole purpose is to secure federal grants for their state. But, I think state workers are also used to federal programs changing, expiring, etc. The shift to liberty would probably be pretty gradual, so it's not like millions of state workers around the country would be looking for jobs the day after the inaugural address.

[MelissaWV]

Speak to them like anyone else. You're assuming the Government worker loves their job, and would not rather work in the private sector doing the same thing more efficiently. There is a lot of waste that goes on, and being awake but working for the Government in order to put food on the table (because working for the stolen tax dollars is, to many people, at least a bit better than lying around and getting tax dollars without working)... people observe that waste and wish it could be done better.

There will be a lot of people who don't want any real change or are frightened of liberty, and there will be some who are with you.

[Kludge]

If the government collapses due to its own irresponsibility, how stable is that paycheck looking now?

The truly free economic society, a government worker probably wouldnt have a government job to begin with. They wouldnt have a fear of being laid off from any job. And if they did, they could afford to take a couple of months off before going back to work, all without social aids.

I tend to lean toward this response.

Forget them until the government collapses from it's own "pro-government" policies and THEN talk to them.

Otherwise, I think your best bet is to try to debate philosophy with them, not emphasizing the extrapolations into politics.

My family's all fundamentalist evangelical baptists, with my mom as a social worker/contractor for The State. She's been getting involved with politics and is looking to be a RNC delegate in 2012, but she's frightfully enamored with Glenn Beck and "America First" rhetoric. I've talked to her about Ron Paul before and she seems uncertain, and I've posted some anti-war stuff to her, and even told her of my plans to leave society because almost anything productive I do here will contribute to destruction by government. It isn't worth trying to argue that her work ("meaning") is actually counter-productive, so I don't talk about it. I think she'll come around, eventually, just from extrapolating on fundamental ideas I can convince her to believe in. My grandparents are more interesting to talk to, holding Creationist beliefs and radical anti-NWO, pro-Israel, and states'-rights beliefs.

[TonySutton]

Talk to them about government debt and how government programs like social security and medicare are taking away the American dream from their children and grandchildren.

It does not help to have a government job or a government pension if the government defaults and can no longer pay it's bills.

[LibertyMage]

Connect with them on an issue you agree on and then begin to articulate the philosophy in regard to other issues.

[FunkBuddha]

As a state worker myself, you would be surprised how many of us are liberty minded. I work for a state university and myself and several of my peers try hard to keep costs down in our organization. No, we aren't as efficient as a private business but we do try hard to move in that direction.

We are also very protective of student and faculty/staff privacy.

Any time I hear people bitching about not getting pay raises I remind them that we are state workers and if no surplus of money is available we don't deserve to get raises because that would be more of a burden to tax payers. I remind them that if we can lower costs in our organization by improving efficiency and not being wasteful then that raise would be more of a possibility. Most people here think that the campus workers union is retarded and refuse to join.

I know several people in my organization who voted for Ron Paul in '08 and others who would likely vote for him '12.

My advice would be to try not to lump all state workers together. We may all be parasites but quite a few of us know this and try our best to lessen the burden that the state puts on the rest of society.

[Stary Hickory]

Good luck "Civil Servants" as they love to call themselves are not interested in anyone but themselves. They have rationalized violent theft for their own benefit by convincing themselves they are "necessary" and "beneificial" for society......nevermind that Society never would voluntarily allow them to do what they are doing.

This is why I fear the growth of government and the social state more than anything else, because it is almost impossible to get rid of.

[Kludge]

This is why I fear the growth of government and the social state more than anything else, because it is almost impossible to get rid of.

It's very easy if expenditure continues to outgrow revenues in government as quickly as is happening now.

The USG can't afford to continue on its current path for many more years.

[Stary Hickory]

It's very easy if expenditure continues to outgrow revenues in government as quickly as is happening now.

The USG can't afford to continue on its current path for many more years.

Maybe but this means that reducing the social state only happens after the economy is wrecked and there is no other option...still we will have wild calls for higher taxes more oppression and violence in some cases.

So in other words the only way to reduce it is to wait until it practically destroys us. I don't like being destroyed over and over as the same clowns start the process over again and again. I'll take what I can, but yeah the economic collapse will bring some sanity to government if only because otherwise we would perish as a human race without some kind of common sense coming into play.

[Kludge]

Maybe but this means that reducing the social state only happens after the economy is wrecked and there is no other option...still we will have wild calls for higher taxes more oppression and violence in some cases.

So in other words the only way to reduce it is to wait until it practically destroys us. I don't like being destroyed over and over as the same clowns start the process over again and again. I'll take what I can, but yeah the economic collapse will bring some sanity to government if only because otherwise we would perish as a human race without some kind of common sense coming into play.

I really don't think we have any other choice at this point but to wait - with regards to salvaging the government's economic policies. Government is pretty locked up with Statists and even if the Liberty Movement can gain 100 seats in Congress this year (we'll be lucky to get two), we're still on a disastrous course with people like Bernanke who want to make it worse. If we had a bunch of people like Ron Paul in Congress, exposing the fraud of our system, our government would almost certainly be insolvent. There's a growing number of illegal immigrants and tax resistors, while government revenue shrinks from the economic crises. Everything is working against the government right now simply because their policies are so selfish and short-sighted.

We can only hope the Chinese government is merciful and rescinds their "loans" ASAP.

[fisharmor]

If the state worker is actually attempting to defend his position, then I would suggest that the best way to try to convince him is in front of an audience.

Years ago G. Gordon Liddy had an FM radio program in the DC area (it was syndicated but never extremely popular). Given his experience, he was always quite vocal about his general disdain for prison guards. Any time the topic came up he would point out that they were not "correctional officers", they were guards. He would explain that there is no correction of anything going on in prisons, and that most of them were nothing more than centers for criminal higher learning.

Well, one day a fan called up who happened to be a "corrections officer", who wanted to take issue with Liddy about this. He got a minute or two in about how it is an important job with very little appreciation, and Liddy immediately challenged him about the title: show me one thing you have corrected. He couldn't, and as soon as he tried to change the subject, Liddy ended the conversation by repeatedly interrupting him with this simple statement:

"Sir, you make your living looking up the anuses of other men."

Now, that guy didn't get converted at all, but a whole lot of his radio audience now hears only that one sentence when they year the words "corrections officer".

Here I am about 13 years later, reading books about alternative legal systems, all because I was made to wonder once about whether we really need to be paying men to look up the anuses of other men.

[Elwar]

Just assure them that if what they do is valuable, they'll probably do better under a private sector job with more pay.

I work for the "military industrial complex" and would be fine with losing my job in exchange for no wars. As it is now...my job is never going away.

The harder sell is if they know that they don't do shit and are still getting paid, they're basically on welfare and don't want it to dry up.

[roho76]

Tell them they'll make more as private contractors. That will get them to switch. Then trim the fat after the change. Done.

[Kludge]

Tell them they'll make more as private contractors. That will get them to switch. Then trim the fat after the change. Done.

What of the social workers, corrections officers who sustain themselves because of the "War On Drugs," the unnecessary bureaucrats?

Many will simply be unemployed if they tried to do as they do with a bloated government.

[ChaosControl]

If one earns their livelihood from the state (federal, state or local), how are they supposed to want to vote or fight for liberty if it means they would lose their job? I think this is our number one stumbling block. We can just tell them, "yes, we know you'd lose your source of income, but liberty would be best for the greater good". Sound familiar? We don't want to become our own worst enemy.

Well you could just promote localism and show them how the federal government is bad. They don't have to lose their job, they could support local government and oppose federal. Remember liberty doesn't exclusively mean absence of all government, if the local community wants certain things they should be allowed to have them without a federal government preventing them from such. I don't really see a contradiction of a local government worker opposing the federal government and big government in general while still supporting some degree of local government.

If they are a federal worker, then that doesn't work, but it should be fine for state/local workers. Although even if they are a federal worker you could still attempt to get them to support lesser government, they will just continue to support some degree of federal intervention, I suppose it depends what their job is.