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wildfirepower
08-27-2010, 10:03 AM
Tata Motors' low-cost car has earlier too been in the news for similar accidental fires on separate occasions. At least six Nano cars have been gutted so in various parts of the country, according to reports.

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/news-by-industry/auto/automobiles/Nano-catches-fire-in-Delhi/articleshow/6446594.cms

awake
08-27-2010, 02:04 PM
Lol... Government Motors at it again.

Romulus
08-27-2010, 02:38 PM
you get what you pay for!

wildfirepower
08-30-2010, 07:38 AM
Ferrari having some problems too.

Ferrari reportedly investigating 458 Italia fire risk [w/video]

http://www.autoblog.com/2010/08/25/ferrari-reportedly-investigating-458-italia-fire-risk-w-video/

pcosmar
08-30-2010, 09:26 AM
you get what you pay for!

What does that mean?

You get something. Whether or not it was what you expected it to be is a whole nuther question.

There are some very expensive products that are crap. There are inexpensive products that do exactly what they promise.

I remember hearing of recalls on High dollar vehicles.
http://www.autosafety.org/ford-ambulancevan-fuel-fed-fires

I guess you "get what you pay for".
:rolleyes:

MelissaWV
08-30-2010, 09:31 AM
Eh, it's all been done before.

http://www.davidkilpatrick.com/pinto.jpg

* * *

Pete,

What's implied is that a lower-cost vehicle got that lower price by cutting corners somehow. Perhaps they used cheaper parts, or a body made of inferior materials, or maybe they still managed to have plastic seats (remember when those were the standard?) and the thing has no electronics to speak of. Of course, as you've pointed out, expensive cars are not immune... but since manufacturers are generally wary of pissing off rich folks with money to burn, it's the cheap cars that are most likely to have those shortcuts that endanger the drivers and passengers.

:)

pcosmar
08-30-2010, 09:44 AM
Eh, it's all been done before.

http://www.davidkilpatrick.com/pinto.jpg

* * *

Pete,

What's implied is that a lower-cost vehicle got that lower price by cutting corners somehow. Perhaps they used cheaper parts, or a body made of inferior materials, or maybe they still managed to have plastic seats (remember when those were the standard?) and the thing has no electronics to speak of. Of course, as you've pointed out, expensive cars are not immune... but since manufacturers are generally wary of pissing off rich folks with money to burn, it's the cheap cars that are most likely to have those shortcuts that endanger the drivers and passengers.:)

Nice theory. But I blame piss poor engineers and design.
Who's frackin' stupid idea was it to put electric fuel pumps inside fuel tanks? (among other stupid designs)
I have turned wrenches since I was quite young,and have done some redesign on fleet vehicles.
I am constantly amazed at some truly stupid designs.

And torx ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torx
:(

btw, Pinto was screwed in the press. Much like Corvair.

MelissaWV
08-30-2010, 09:49 AM
Though the Pinto was demonized unnecessarily, the problems were there, and the fires were real. Car fires are nothing new. Drive around the DC Beltway and you are bound to see a car-b-cue on any given day.

pcosmar
08-30-2010, 10:01 AM
Though the Pinto was demonized unnecessarily, the problems were there, and the fires were real. Car fires are nothing new. Drive around the DC Beltway and you are bound to see a car-b-cue on any given day.

That is my point. The Pinto had a design flaw. (minor and overblown) and it was quickly redesigned and corrected.
But the Press never let it go.
Same with the massive campaign to kill the Corvair. (a very good design overall)
How many are still around after all these years? (a great many)
;)

Romulus
08-30-2010, 10:11 AM
What does that mean?

You get something. Whether or not it was what you expected it to be is a whole nuther question.

There are some very expensive products that are crap. There are inexpensive products that do exactly what they promise.

I remember hearing of recalls on High dollar vehicles.
http://www.autosafety.org/ford-ambulancevan-fuel-fed-fires

I guess you "get what you pay for".
:rolleyes:

It's just a saying. Here's another one: "Buy cheap, you get cheap." :) Point being that if you buy a NEW car for $2500 don't be surprised when the thing craps out on you - after all, they are turning a profit at $2500! So image all the R&D you're paying for in that design.

Me personally, I'll buy an old Chevy for $2500. I can work on it, get cheap parts and it'll run all day long. When it breaks, I can actually fix it w/o having to take a computer programming course.

Did you all see the report that the old square body Chevy trucks exploded on side impact? All Dateline BS. They were forced to retract as they set up their 'test' to explode on impact. Guess what, there are 1000's of those 81-87 square body trucks still on the road.. they are damn good vehicles.

pcosmar
08-30-2010, 10:19 AM
It's just a saying. Here's another one: "Buy cheap, you get cheap." :) Point being that if you buy a NEW car for $2500 don't be surprised when the thing craps out on you - after all, they are turning a profit at $2500! So image all the R&D you're paying for in that design.



They are also building a car without Union Mandated Wages which will bring costs down considerably.

Here is a simple fix. MOVE the damn fuel pump outside the gas tank.
I just replaced another one this week. Frackin' stupid idea. and it is industry wide.

Add in the various "interlocks" and other "Idiot proofing" and more savings can be had.

Dr.3D
08-30-2010, 10:20 AM
Lol... Government Motors at it again.

I doubt General Motors has anything to do with those automobiles.

Romulus
08-30-2010, 10:25 AM
They are also building a car without Union Mandated Wages which will bring costs down considerably.

Here is a simple fix. MOVE the damn fuel pump outside the gas tank.
I just replaced another one this week. Frackin' stupid idea. and it is industry wide.

Yes, I think Toyota is w/o Unions here in the US. But their cars aren't any cheaper than GMs for whatever reason?

It does sound like a bad idea to have an electric fuel pump inside the tank, but this very common in all vehicles, is it not? I believe they are sealed off in a different compartment? Either that or the electric connections are on the outside of tank, which is very safe as have been common since 1987 in GM cars and trucks.

pcosmar
08-30-2010, 10:27 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tata_Nano

BYW. 6 cars have caught fire.
How many are on the road?


# 2010 Business Standard Motoring Indian car of the year[50]
# 2010 Bloomberg UTV-Autocar car of the year[51]
# 2010 Edison Awards, first place in the transportation category

pcosmar
08-30-2010, 10:34 AM
It does sound like a bad idea to have an electric fuel pump inside the tank, but this very common in all vehicles, is it not? I believe they are sealed off in a different compartment? Either that or the electric connections are on the outside of tank, which is very safe as have been common since 1987 in GM cars and trucks.
Wrong on all counts.
It is in the fuel tank, and is directly connected to electricity.
And they do fail.
And they are a real PITA to replace.
Yes, I have replaces several and in various types of vehicle. :(

That was one of the redesigns I mentioned, I cut an access and made an access panel for replacing pumps on a fleet of buses. They liked to fail when the tank was full. :(

did I ever mention that I hate engineers ?

Romulus
08-30-2010, 10:39 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tata_Nano

BYW. 6 cars have caught fire.
How many are on the road?

How many fires are reported? Still, if only 6 caught fire out of 200,000. It sounds like a defect somewhere.

Heck India halted their vaccine program after 4 kids died, out of how many that received the vaccine?

Romulus
08-30-2010, 10:41 AM
Wrong on all counts.
It is in the fuel tank, and is directly connected to electricity.
And they do fail.
And they are a real PITA to replace.
Yes, I have replaces several and in various types of vehicle. :(

That was one of the redesigns I mentioned, I cut an access and made an access panel for replacing pumps on a fleet of buses. They liked to fail when the tank was full. :(

did I ever mention that I hate engineers ?

They fail but they do not explode, as shown my millions of GM cars and trucks on the road since 1987. Yes they are a PITA to replace since you have to drop the tank. That part sucks.

dannno
08-30-2010, 10:42 AM
The car

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQsvRlsrDj_iFUmtvi5NhASHc1VVFIQH vHUEGfijlwrVXBL73g&t=1&usg=__bnDQUoP_6bel60ybskZdim4fqGQ=

pcosmar
08-30-2010, 10:44 AM
How many fires are reported? Still, if only 6 caught fire out of 200,000. It sounds like a defect somewhere.

Heck India halted their vaccine program after 4 kids died, out of how many that received the vaccine?

I will refer you to yourself,



Did you all see the report that the old square body Chevy trucks exploded on side impact? All Dateline BS. They were forced to retract as they set up their 'test' to explode on impact. Guess what, there are 1000's of those 81-87 square body trucks still on the road.. they are damn good vehicles.

And this?

They fail but they do not explode, as shown my millions of GM cars and trucks on the road since 1987. Yes they are a PITA to replace since you have to drop the tank. That part sucks.
It is not just GM products. Ford truck have a serious fire history.
There are several design flaws with many vehicles. And safety interlocks and added assorted bullshit to minimize it (at added costs), but the fact remains. Gasoline burns.

Promontorium
08-30-2010, 10:47 AM
While watching that History Channel epic about American history, when they got to the Ford they mentioned the cost of the car was only like a couple months pay for an average worker. That's where America has clearly failed capitalism, where cars were a couple months pay, now you pay for years and still don't own the thing. And houses, god damn, even post housing crash you should expect to pay for the rest of your working years.

Romulus
08-30-2010, 10:53 AM
There is a difference.

Nano = Instances reported by the media.

81-87 Chevy Trucks = Completely Fabricated by Dateline NBC.

I'm not passing judgment on the Nano, maybe the 6 fires were due somehow to the owners neglect? I'm not going to be quick to point the finger at Nano.

But I can speak to Chevy/GM cars and trucks. Their fuel pump design is NOT flawed. Millions of cars/trucks on the road since 1987 have proven that to be true.

Romulus
08-30-2010, 10:55 AM
While watching that History Channel epic about American history, when they got to the Ford they mentioned the cost of the car was only like a couple months pay for an average worker. That's where America has clearly failed capitalism, where cars were a couple months pay, now you pay for years and still don't own the thing. And houses, god damn, even post housing crash you should expect to pay for the rest of your working years.

Dont blame capitalism. You can thank the Fed, politicians and bureaucrats there.

pcosmar
08-30-2010, 11:09 AM
I did not mean to focus on the fuel pump. That is a pet peeve of mine, as well as a few other design and engineering issues.
And I just replaced another pump, so that joy is still with me.

With this car it is not apparent what the issue is.

Tata has sold more than 50,000 Nanos since the company began deliveries of the car in July 2009. A 20-member internal team and an independent forensic expert found that one previous fire involved a foreign object igniting while in contact with a hot exhaust system, while the other showed evidence of a ruptured fuel line.

Also it is curious that all of the fires took place in New Deli. No where else where the cars exist.

The investigation continues.

Romulus
08-30-2010, 11:15 AM
I noticed in that picture of the burning Tato, there is some wreath on the front grille? Who know what other 'mods' the owner did elsewhere.

Yes, it very well could be a case of operator error or neglect. That sure seems to be the case with many automotive failures.

Anti Federalist
08-30-2010, 11:29 AM
Got to agree with Pete on this point, the Pinto got a bad rap.

In many ways it was well ahead of it's time, overhead cam engine design being just one of these features.

They were fun cars to drive, simple to work on and got better gas mileage than many of the over engineered computerized pieces of shit out there today.

wildfirepower
08-31-2010, 07:51 AM
Me personally, I'll buy an old Chevy for $2500. I can work on it, get cheap parts and it'll run all day long.
It is better to buy an old car of good quality for $2500 whose original price was high rather than buying a new car for $2500.

wildfirepower
09-01-2010, 08:14 AM
Most expensive car in the world $2.21 million

Video-: http://www.most-expensive-car-in-the-world.com/

Seraphim
09-01-2010, 08:17 AM
Dont blame capitalism. You can thank the Fed, politicians and bureaucrats there.

Precisely. You cannot blame something that in practice is non-existent (negligeably so). Free market capitalism is NOT in existence in today's world- thus you cannot blame it for the worlds problems.

fisharmor
09-01-2010, 08:41 AM
I grew up rolling around in a '63 Corvair. Without a carseat.

The thing that astounds me is how all these individual cases get a bad rap, but the biggest piece of crap design I've ever run into is still beloved by millions.
I'm talking about the original Beetle.
I rode in one as a kid, owned two as an adult, and let me tell you, there's a car that was cranked out about 15 years too long.


It is better to buy an old car of good quality for $2500 whose original price was high rather than buying a new car for $2500.

Two months ago I bought a 1991 Saturn SL1, which was not an expensive car when it was new.
If you're looking for a good car, any < 1996 Saturn is the way to go.
Great mileage, bulletproof design, cheap parts, and you can find them with < 150k in some cases.

I'm still not over how pissed I am at them for changing their whole game in 1996. They stopped doing what made them what they are, and started trying to make the same POS everyone else was.
And now they're gone.... no surprise to me. If they had kept that initial spirit going, people would have been punching each other in the face for the opportunity to buy the company.

Working Poor
09-01-2010, 08:49 AM
It is better to buy an old car of good quality for $2500 whose original price was high rather than buying a new car for $2500.
Well that's what cash for clunker was all about get all those cars off the street that have cheap parts and are easy to repair.:mad:

wildfirepower
09-02-2010, 07:39 AM
Ferrari recalls 458 Italia supercars after fires

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5iinfaBQFqK_RIgvPNYCmc-kDCYyAD9HVOHH80

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/car-manufacturers/ferrari/7975727/Ferrari-recalls-458-Italia-cars-after-spate-of-fires.html

crazyfacedjenkins
09-02-2010, 09:19 AM
Ah big deal. My Escort was recalled because the alternator plug would short and cause a fire. When mine eventually caught fire I just pulled the wire off the positive terminal and dumped some water on the fire. Replaced the plug the next day, and put another 100k miles on the car.

Romulus
09-02-2010, 09:42 AM
88-91 Suburbans caught fire too, because the transmission would overheat and overflow onto the cat causing a fire. They fixed this with a pressure capped dipstick.