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View Full Version : Taxing the rich? [MSNBC debate]




Matt Collins
08-27-2010, 09:52 AM
YouTube - Dan Mitchell on Taxing the Rich (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhMA1oRpAlM&feature=uploademail)

freshjiva
08-27-2010, 10:28 AM
The guy from Cato wins.

Sola_Fide
08-27-2010, 10:44 AM
I really hope the debate about spending overshadows the debate about taxes in 2012.

AlexMerced
08-27-2010, 10:49 AM
The left is doing what the right did under Bush, making sure every policy is justified in the eyes of their voters, with occasional illusion of humility "I'm not saying everything the administration does is good but this issue is this, this, and this."

And while they say this not to seem partisan they never mention something they don't like.

It's politics... it's annoying... and destructive

Brian4Liberty
08-27-2010, 11:03 AM
- How about we eliminate the income tax entirely? The Feds can get their money from a flat, untargeted, across the board import tariff.

- Someone mentioned special interests, which they always do. Does anyone else see the irony in the fact that the people who usually debate and implement tax policy and advocate lower capital gains taxes are the very same people who make their living running and gambling in a big casino that sits on top of our economy?

- Yes, the ultra rich pay less taxes because the behemoth tax code was written by their lawyers. If there must be an income tax, it should be a flat percentage, and across the board, no exceptions. A 3 page tax code at the most.

YumYum
08-27-2010, 11:04 AM
The rich Republican neocons wanted the Bush/Chaney war with Iraq. They should pay for it, not me. Even though we all hate taxes: higher taxes are coming! And they are coming at us hard! The rich bankers got us into the current economic mess by creating the housing bubble, and the rich got us into empire building and these hopeless wars. They should be taxed to death as far as I'm concerned!!

For those of you who disagree, why are you defending the rich? Are you rich? They don't care about you. Somebody is going to have pay this debt off, and it isn't going to be me.

Stary Hickory
08-27-2010, 11:10 AM
The rich Republican neocons wanted the Bush/Chaney war with Iraq. They should pay for it, not me. Even though we all hate taxes: higher taxes are coming! And they are coming at us hard! The rich bankers got us into the current economic mess by creating the housing bubble, and the rich got us into empire building and these hopeless wars. They should be taxed to death as far as I'm concerned!!

For those of you who disagree, why are you defending the rich? Are you rich? They don't care about you. Somebody is going to have pay this debt off, and it isn't going to be me.

Saw your name in this post and already knew EXACTLY what you would say. Exactly who do we forcibly rob? Can you not make a distinction between honest and dishonest men or all "rich" just evil "republicans". You need to drop the partisan rhetoric and quit advocating arbiturary theft based on the "illusions" in your head.

Instead how about concentrating on all the dishonest and socially destructive ways people benefit economically at the expense of others. Here is a clue: It includes rich, poor, and the middle class. Stopping facist legislation and eliminating the corrupt monetary system are legitimate steps that we could take.

Condmeming anyone with money and advocating violence against them is not libertarian nor is it rational. And it has nothing to do with Republicans or Democrats as they all support or have supported the facsist system and lend support to corruppt monetary policy. Let me remind you that progressives created the central bank in the first place, and that the progressive platform calls for government control over money. This is what has caused the wealth gap and created the mess we now see.

Of course most in government (both R and D) now support the existing system but your lame attemempts to make this a partisan issue are pointless.

Sola_Fide
08-27-2010, 11:21 AM
The rich Republican neocons wanted the Bush/Chaney war with Iraq. They should pay for it, not me. Even though we all hate taxes: higher taxes are coming! And they are coming at us hard! The rich bankers got us into the current economic mess by creating the housing bubble, and the rich got us into empire building and these hopeless wars. They should be taxed to death as far as I'm concerned!!

For those of you who disagree, why are you defending the rich? Are you rich? They don't care about you. Somebody is going to have pay this debt off, and it isn't going to be me.


You have been brainwashed by Marxism.


Taxing the rich does not help you. It only fuels the agencies that want control over you.


WAKE UP.

Anti Federalist
08-27-2010, 11:31 AM
~~~Tax the rich, feed the poor, till there are no rich no more~~~

I find it hard to believe that this silliness even gets seriously considered anymore.

YumYum
08-27-2010, 11:38 AM
Saw your name in this post and already knew EXACTLY what you would say.

Glad you noticed.


Exactly who do we forcibly rob? Can you not make a distinction between honest and dishonest men or all "rich" just evil "republicans".

No, some of the banksters voted Democrat. We need to nail them too!


You need to drop the partisan rhetoric and quit advocating arbitrary theft based on the "illusions" in your head.

Not theft; I just want the rich to pay for what they bought: war. Not illusions: fact.
Did poor people start Bush's wars?


Instead how about concentrating on all the dishonest and socially destructive ways people benefit economically at the expense of others. Here is a clue: It includes rich, poor, and the middle class. Stopping facist legislation and eliminating the corrupt monetary system are legitimate steps that we could take.

Sounds good to me. I still want to tax the rich, and not me. Are you rich?


Condemning anyone with money and advocating violence against them is not libertarian nor is it rational.

I have never advocated violence. That is AED's platform.


And it has nothing to do with Republicans or Democrats as they all support or have supported the facsist system and lend support to corruppt monetary policy.

You're right! Let's tax the rich in both parties!!


Let me remind you that progressives created the central bank in the first place, and that the progressive platform calls for government control over money. This is what has caused the wealth gap and created the mess we now see.

Tax the progressives. Don't tax me.


Of course most in government (both R and D) now support the existing system but your lame attempts to make this a partisan issue are pointless.

Didn't make it a partisan issue. I just stated the facts. I can't help that it was the rich Republican neocons that wanted the wars that have bankrupted this country. Like I said, some of the rich banksters were Democrats. The rich Repubs were all over the news screaming for war. They should pay the bill; that's all. Why do you defend the rich who wanted war or the bankers that created a bubble?

Matt Collins
08-27-2010, 11:42 AM
The rich Republican neocons wanted the Bush/Chaney war with Iraq. They should pay for it, not me. I agree, but really they shouldn't have had the invasion to begin with.



Even though we all hate taxes: higher taxes are coming! And they are coming at us hard! The rich bankers got us into the current economic mess by creating the housing bubble, and the rich got us into empire building and these hopeless wars. They should be taxed to death as far as I'm concerned!!That makes no sense whatsoever :rolleyes:


For those of you who disagree, why are you defending the rich? Are you rich? They don't care about you. Somebody is going to have pay this debt off, and it isn't going to be me.Your lack of understanding of economics is disturbing.

AlexMerced
08-27-2010, 11:45 AM
The rich Republican neocons wanted the Bush/Chaney war with Iraq. They should pay for it, not me. Even though we all hate taxes: higher taxes are coming! And they are coming at us hard! The rich bankers got us into the current economic mess by creating the housing bubble, and the rich got us into empire building and these hopeless wars. They should be taxed to death as far as I'm concerned!!

For those of you who disagree, why are you defending the rich? Are you rich? They don't care about you. Somebody is going to have pay this debt off, and it isn't going to be me.

It's not about defending the rich, any crimes committed by anyone should be persucuted. Although, the rich have a function, they accumulate capital and have done so cause they are good at putting it to use, the poor are either just in early stages of capital accumulation or bad at putting capital to use (so why would you want to give them extra?).

The rich are rich cause they are good at anticipating consumer demands and make the appropriate investments to everyones advatage cause it create sustainable jobs (assuming no manipulation via artifical interest rates and tax incentives)

It's like knowledge, the more you learn, the faster you learn, this is the same logic of capital communication.

Should we take knowledge from a genius and give it to high school drop outs?

YumYum
08-27-2010, 11:46 AM
I agree, but really they shouldn't have had the invasion to begin with.


That makes no sense whatsoever :rolleyes:

Your lack of understanding of economics is disturbing.

You must be rich! :D

YumYum
08-27-2010, 11:58 AM
It's not about defending the rich, any crimes committed by anyone should be persucuted. Although, the rich have a function, they accumulate capital and have done so cause they are good at putting it to use, the poor are either just in early stages of capital accumulation or bad at putting capital to use (so why would you want to give them extra?).

The rich are rich cause they are good at anticipating consumer demands and make the appropriate investments to everyones advatage cause it create sustainable jobs (assuming no manipulation via artifical interest rates and tax incentives)

It's like knowledge, the more you learn, the faster you learn, this is the same logic of capital communication.

Should we take knowledge from a genius and give it to high school drop outs?

The video was not talking about the "rich", but the "extreme rich". I do not not consider honest people who do well financially to be a part of the "extreme rich". Ron Paul is not of the "extreme rich". People that use their money to manipulate our politicians into getting us into wars and giving away foreign aid when we are bankrupt should be taxed to death. I didn't do it, so why should I have to foot the bill? If you and others want to pay for the mess that the "extreme" rich got us into, then go on ahead. But as for me, I will fight the increase that I will have to pay on my taxes that will be due in 2011, all because of the mess that the "extreme rich" have created. Why do you guys defend these people? The bankers??? Hello!!! The Military Industrial Complex??? Hello??? The Corporatist Elite who send American tax-dollars to subsidize other countries??? Hello!!! :confused:

Fox McCloud
08-27-2010, 12:03 PM
http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/blogs/beltway-confidential/Little-known-fact-Obamas-failed-stimulus-program-cost-more-than-the-Iraq-war-101302919.html

Stimulus spending > Iraq War.

IIRC Afghanistan+IRaq is around a total of $1 Trillion...if the figures above are correct, then the stimulus spending is roughly double that.

edit: http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2010/aug/25/mark-tapscott/did-stimulus-cost-more-war-iraq/

apparently the numbers are a bit warped and there's a few assumptions thrown in...in any event, I bet it would be difficult to get any of the numbers from either side down to a precise "T".

tjeffersonsghost
08-27-2010, 12:06 PM
Yum Yum...


You are correct...


For those of you who argue well we shouldnt of done this and we shouldnt of done that I have news for ya.... WE DID IT. We invaded Iraq, we have troops in 170 countries, we have big welfare programs. There is NO THEORY HERE it is REALITY! Because of our past and current policies we have a whole lot of debt.

So the question is who is going to pay for it? You going to tax the poor? You going to tax the middle class? Or are you going to tax George Soros and Warren Buffet? I think it's also important to define rich...

Reality is the debt is there and it's not going away. We can sit here and talk theory and woulda, coulda, shoulda all day long but the fact is many of the Warren Buffets and Soros of the world GOT RICH from the very policies that our government has done.

All of that being said even I am talking theory because as it stands today we could tax every single dollar from every single person right now and still not have enough money to pay the debt. M3 is around $11 trillion and our debt is $13+ trillion. Do the Math...

YumYum
08-27-2010, 12:12 PM
Your lack of understanding of economics is disturbing.

Actually, this is where ideology and reality clash. Are you against all income taxes? Yes? Guess what? So am I. But, we are not in that Promised Libertarian Land just yet, we are still here in the real world of greed and evil. So, we are faced with a $13.5 trillion debt that you and I will have to pay off. I didn't run up that debt, so why should I have to pay it off? Yes, I know, when they increase taxes it is just an excuse to borrow more money. But, whatever they do, I don't want them to increase my taxes. The fact is: they are going to raise taxes. That is a reality. Do you understand economics? You either cut spending or raise taxes. As the pundit said, even if you cut spending right now, you still have this enormous debt that has to be paid on, so taxes have to be raised.

So, what I am saying, is for those that created the debt by influencing our politicians to borrow money that we don't have: they should foot the bill, not me. And, the extremely rich Republican neocons wanted war. They, not I, should pay for it. Its all very simple.

erowe1
08-27-2010, 12:15 PM
I really hope the debate about spending overshadows the debate about taxes in 2012.

It definitely won't.

Every time a candidate mentions any major government spending he wants to cut, he'll lose some support, even in the GOP primary.

Matt Collins
08-27-2010, 12:16 PM
People that use their money to manipulate our politicians into getting us into wars and giving away foreign aid when we are bankrupt should be taxed to death.You forget that those same people also have significant influence with the government so they are not going to tax themselves :rolleyes:

The problem is big government and politicians with no integrity or fidelity to the Constitution.


I didn't do it, so why should I have to foot the bill?I completely agree.


If you and others want to pay for the mess that the "extreme" rich got us into, then go on ahead. It wasn't just the extreme rich. There were many people involved and everyone who went along with it or didn't speak out is just as guilty in my opinion.


But as for me, I will fight the increase that I will have to pay on my taxes that will be due in 2011, all because of the mess that the "extreme rich" have created. Why do you guys defend these people? The bankers??? Hello!!! The Military Industrial Complex??? Hello??? The Corporatist Elite who send American tax-dollars to subsidize other countries??? Hello!!! :confused:I don't think anyone is defending anyone. But taxes are destructive to the economy so less taxes tends to equate to a better economy (excluding other factors of course)


You must be rich! :D
Quite the opposite.

YumYum
08-27-2010, 12:23 PM
Yum Yum...


You are correct...


For those of you who argue well we shouldnt of done this and we shouldnt of done that I have news for ya.... WE DID IT. We invaded Iraq, we have troops in 170 countries, we have big welfare programs. There is NO THEORY HERE it is REALITY! Because of our past and current policies we have a whole lot of debt.

So the question is who is going to pay for it? You going to tax the poor? You going to tax the middle class? Or are you going to tax George Soros and Warren Buffet? I think it's also important to define rich...

Reality is the debt is there and it's not going away. We can sit here and talk theory and woulda, coulda, shoulda all day long but the fact is many of the Warren Buffets and Soros of the world GOT RICH from the very policies that our government has done.

All of that being said even I am talking theory because as it stands today we could tax every single dollar from every single person right now and still not have enough money to pay the debt. M3 is around $11 trillion and our debt is $13+ trillion. Do the Math...

Right, also another point is that taxes are going to be raised on you and I no matter what. Obama lied when he said no tax increases for families making under $250,000 a year. We will ALL get hammered come next year. But the extreme rich always find a way of getting out of paying taxes. Remember "Cap n' Trade"? One reason everybody hates it is because they know that the rich corporations will bribe the politicians so they won't pay their fair share of the pollution tax. The extreme rich always find a way out. If someone is truly for Liberty, they would be fighting against the extreme rich and their influence on our (not theirs) government!

erowe1
08-27-2010, 12:24 PM
For those of you who argue well we shouldnt of done this and we shouldnt of done that I have news for ya.... WE DID IT. We invaded Iraq...

No we didn't.

At least I didn't.

YumYum
08-27-2010, 12:27 PM
Matt, taxes are going to go up. Obama's administration is planning to go after the extreme rich. Would you rather they increases taxes on the extreme rich, or you?

tjeffersonsghost
08-27-2010, 12:29 PM
No we didn't.

At least I didn't.

The leaders that were elected by the people did and trust me it will to be paid for. The question is do we do it via inflation so the working poor and working middle class pay or do we tax the people who gained the most from the policies.

I like other wish we would just end this madness but as of now that is theory. In the mean time till we gain our goal this stuff needs to be paid for. When the people who profit from such policies start to actually have to pay for such policies you might start to see some real change.

ClayTrainor
08-27-2010, 12:31 PM
Matt, taxes are going to go up. Obama's administration is planning to go after the extreme rich. Would you rather they increases taxes on the extreme rich, or you?

The only right answer to that is "neither". The premise is pure evil.

tjeffersonsghost
08-27-2010, 12:31 PM
Matt, taxes are going to go up. Obama's administration is planning to go after the extreme rich. Would you rather they increases taxes on the extreme rich, or you?

And if they dont tax direct they will instill the inflation tax and make us all pay. The inflation tax hurts the working poor and middle class much more.

erowe1
08-27-2010, 12:33 PM
The leaders that were elected by the people did and trust me it will to be paid for. The question is do we do it via inflation so the working poor and working middle class pay or do we tax the people who gained the most from the policies.


I don't see the fact that those leaders were "elected" as relevant. But on the rest, I agree. But it's already been paid for, partly by inflation (i.e. deficit spending) and partly by more overt forms of taxation.

Matt Collins
08-27-2010, 12:36 PM
Do you understand economics? You either cut spending or raise taxesKeep in mind a great deal of the debt is owed to the Fed and will eventually be monetized. That's the third option.




So, what I am saying, is for those that created the debt by influencing our politicians to borrow money that we don't have: they should foot the bill, not me. And, the extremely rich Republican neocons wanted war. They, not I, should pay for it. Its all very simple.I agree, but you are going after the result of the problem, not the cause. The cause as I have said is infidelity to the Constitution.

Matt Collins
08-27-2010, 12:38 PM
Matt, taxes are going to go up. Obama's administration is planning to go after the extreme rich. Would you rather they increases taxes on the extreme rich, or you?They can't tax me, I don't have anything. :) But taxing the rich will hurt just as bad. ALL TAXATION IS DESTRUCTIVE TO THE ECONOMY!

YumYum
08-27-2010, 12:40 PM
The only right answer to that is "neither". The premise is pure evil.

Yes, it is all evil. But we live in the real world. And in this real world all Americans (except the poor) are going to be heavily taxed. Can you imagine if you have a job and after paying federal, state, county, city, personal and sales taxes, that you would only be left with 70% of your income? How about only 80% That is insane! And as tjeffersonsghost has stated, add the inflation tax. We will all be working for taxes. But not the rich.

So, Stary Hickory brought up a good point. How do you separate the extremely rich that are"good" from the extremely rich that are "bad"? Simple. You make a list. People on this forum can do the research and come up with a list of every rich person that supported the wars, help create the bubble, and supported the bailouts. Once we make the list, we send it to Ron Paul. He then, will send it to Matt. :D

Tal
08-27-2010, 12:41 PM
Matt, taxes are going to go up. Obama's administration is planning to go after the extreme rich. Would you rather they increases taxes on the extreme rich, or you?

Taxes dont have to go up if you just cut welfare/warfare spending, I also think there is something inherently immoral about taxing Paul with a higher tax percentage than Peter, preferably there should be no income tax but if there is one the politicians should atleast have the decency to make it a flat income tax.

ClayTrainor
08-27-2010, 12:44 PM
So, what I am saying, is for those that created the debt by influencing our politicians to borrow money that we don't have: they should foot the bill, not me. And, the extremely rich Republican neocons wanted war. They, not I, should pay for it. Its all very simple.

+1 :)

In other words, individuals should be held fully accountable to their own actions. They shouldn't be able to pass accountability over to the people who wanted nothing to do with their actions.

AlexMerced
08-27-2010, 12:45 PM
Right, also another point is that taxes are going to be raised on you and I no matter what. Obama lied when he said no tax increases for families making under $250,000 a year. We will ALL get hammered come next year. But the extreme rich always find a way of getting out of paying taxes. Remember "Cap n' Trade"? One reason everybody hates it is because they know that the rich corporations will bribe the politicians so they won't pay their fair share of the pollution tax. The extreme rich always find a way out. If someone is truly for Liberty, they would be fighting against the extreme rich and their influence on our (not theirs) government!

That's why I'm for abolishing government... they can't influence something that doesn't exist

most of the functions previously served by government will be handled by competing enterprise which is a lot harder to corrupt cause there would be SOOOOO many people to pay off.

That's why the power structure keeps becoming more and more linear, cause then the elites only have to pay off less and less people for the same influence.

YumYum
08-27-2010, 12:47 PM
Keep in mind a great deal of the debt is owed to the Fed and will eventually be monetized. That's the third option.

How would that work? Honestly, I haven't heard Obama talk about monetizing the debt, but it sounds intriguing.



I agree, but you are going after the result of the problem, not the cause. The cause as I have said is infidelity to the Constitution.

True, and I am sure that if Ron Paul is president he will fight to rectify the infidelity to the Constitution. But in the meantime, Obama is planning to stick it to all of us, and the Republicans do not want the Bush tax cuts to expire. Do you think that is fair? Should they, or should they not, expire?

YumYum
08-27-2010, 12:48 PM
+1 :)

In other words, individuals should be held fully accountable to their own actions. They shouldn't be able to pass accountability over to the people who wanted nothing to do with their actions.

If I could reach through my computer screen and hug ya, I would!!! :p

Austrian Econ Disciple
08-27-2010, 12:49 PM
Right, also another point is that taxes are going to be raised on you and I no matter what. Obama lied when he said no tax increases for families making under $250,000 a year. We will ALL get hammered come next year. But the extreme rich always find a way of getting out of paying taxes. Remember "Cap n' Trade"? One reason everybody hates it is because they know that the rich corporations will bribe the politicians so they won't pay their fair share of the pollution tax. The extreme rich always find a way out. If someone is truly for Liberty, they would be fighting against the extreme rich and their influence on our (not theirs) government!

I would recommend you read some Anthony de Jasay about the nature of the State/Government. It is not our State/Government. The State has its own interests wholly seperate from the interests of the individuals outside of the Government. It seeks to expand power to keep its legitimacy (e.g. might > right).

We get hammered with tax increases every year because of inflation. As for debt, just repudiate it.

Matt Collins
08-27-2010, 12:54 PM
How would that work? Honestly, I haven't heard Obama talk about monetizing the debt, but it sounds intriguing. You need to spend more time on the Mises website.

Basically the Federal Reserve "prints" more money so that it can pay down debts with cheap dollars.




Obama is planning to stick it to all of us, and the Republicans do not want the Bush tax cuts to expire. Do you think that is fair? Should they, or should they not, expire?The government should stick to the Constitution and that will solve most problems.

YumYum
08-27-2010, 12:57 PM
Taxes dont have to go up if you just cut welfare/warfare spending, I also think there is something inherently immoral about taxing Paul with a higher tax percentage than Peter, preferably there should be no income tax but if there is one the politicians should atleast have the decency to make it a flat income tax.

If we have an income tax, I agree with James Trafficant's plan, which is a straight across flat tax. But, again, these are ideologies that will not be implemented any time soon. If you cut spending on foreign aid, that would save $1 trillion a year, and that would pay the interest on all our debt. But the debt continues to grow and there is no end in sight.

So, given that none of us are rich, and that in reality taxes are soon going to go up, Ron Paul supporters should be making a list and targeting the rich who have ruined our country by demanding that they pay higher taxes. All we need is a list of names. The first on my list: Sean Hannity and Bill O'Reilly. They are extremely rich and they promoted the Iraq war. They need to foot the bill.

CUnknown
08-27-2010, 12:58 PM
I agree with YumYum that as long as we have to have taxes, I'd like to see the rich taxed at a higher percentage. For those who are arguing that taxing the rich doesn't help regular people -- I agree, sort of, but only in the abstract. Right now, -someone- has to be taxed to pay back the debt. Let the rich be taxed at a higher rate. They benefited more from the boom period, let them pay more now.

We should be working to eliminate the income tax, but for right now, we don't have that power. Let the rich pay their fair share in the meantime.

YumYum
08-27-2010, 01:05 PM
I would recommend you read some Anthony de Jasay about the nature of the State/Government. It is not our State/Government. The State has its own interests wholly seperate from the interests of the individuals outside of the Government. It seeks to expand power to keep its legitimacy (e.g. might > right).

We get hammered with tax increases every year because of inflation. As for debt, just repudiate it.

The problem is, we can't roll over our existing debt anymore. We will soon be at the point where we cannot service the debt. So, before they start printing money that is not even backed by Treasury bonds, they will tax us to death.

Don't get me wrong. I love Mises and after this all collapses, I want to push hard for the economic freedom that Rothbard describes. That is why I want this all to collapse quickly. I want to start a new program. If not, I will work my ass off till I die to do nothing but pay taxes.

So, I am talking about today. I am talking about what we are faced with right now, and what we are faced with is taxation beyond belief. Look, if we really care about educating people, then we need to make this list, and, as Clay said, people should be held accountable for what they do. I want to hold the extremely rich accountable. Don't you?

YumYum
08-27-2010, 01:07 PM
I agree with YumYum that as long as we have to have taxes, I'd like to see the rich taxed at a higher percentage. For those who are arguing that taxing the rich doesn't help regular people -- I agree, sort of, but only in the abstract. Right now, -someone- has to be taxed to pay back the debt. Let the rich be taxed at a higher rate. They benefited more from the boom period, let them pay more now.

We should be working to eliminate the income tax, but for right now, we don't have that power. Let the rich pay their fair share in the meantime.

I could not have said it better myself! :)

Fredom101
08-27-2010, 01:09 PM
The only way to win the tax debate is the argument from morality.

It is not moral to steal. This is universal. It doesn't matter if you work for the IRS or wear a hat and a badge. Stealing is immoral, and taxes are simply theft.

If we don't take this argument to the masses, we will ALWAYS be stuck arguing how "fair" this or that tax is, or how much a certain group "should pay".

YumYum
08-27-2010, 01:10 PM
You need to spend more time on the Mises website.

Basically the Federal Reserve "prints" more money so that it can pay down debts with cheap dollars.

I agree. There is always room to grow and learn more.



The government should stick to the Constitution and that will solve most problems.

That is why I am going to work my ass off to get Ron Paul elected!

But, in the mean time, I think we need to make up a list of the rich bastards that got us into this mess, don't you agree?

Fredom101
08-27-2010, 01:12 PM
The government should stick to the Constitution and that will solve most problems.

Hoping that will ever happen is a pipe dream.

Matt Collins
08-27-2010, 01:12 PM
I agree with YumYum that as long as we have to have taxes, I'd like to see the rich taxed at a higher percentage. Then you are a Marxist :rolleyes:




We should be working to eliminate the income tax, but for right now, we don't have that power. Let the rich pay their fair share in the meantime."Fair share" would be a flat tax meaning that everyone pays an equal rate :rolleyes:

Matt Collins
08-27-2010, 01:15 PM
That is why I am going to work my ass off to get Ron Paul elected!

But, in the mean time, I think we need to make up a list of the rich bastards that got us into this mess, don't you agree?Their personal wealth is irrelevant. It's their actions, not their money that is the problem. Their money just enables them.

ClayTrainor
08-27-2010, 01:15 PM
The only way to win the tax debate is the argument from morality.

It is not moral to steal. This is universal. It doesn't matter if you work for the IRS or wear a hat and a badge. Stealing is immoral, and taxes are simply theft.

If we don't take this argument to the masses, we will ALWAYS be stuck arguing how "fair" this or that tax is, or how much a certain group "should pay".

Makes perfect sense to me. :)

YumYum
08-27-2010, 01:18 PM
That's why I'm for abolishing government... they can't influence something that doesn't exist

most of the functions previously served by government will be handled by competing enterprise which is a lot harder to corrupt cause there would be SOOOOO many people to pay off.

That's why the power structure keeps becoming more and more linear, cause then the elites only have to pay off less and less people for the same influence.

True, I do not trust any government. But, there again, you have ideology clashing with reality, and we are not going to abolish our government anytime soon. You and I will spend the rest of our lives working to pay taxes. So, given right now, at this moment the fact that we are going to be taxed to death, we should demand that the "functions" (the extreme rich) that have created this mess should pay higher taxes. Look at Blankfein, the head of Goldman Sachs. He should be in prison, and yet he got bailout money. Shouldn't he be paying higher taxes?

ItsTime
08-27-2010, 01:40 PM
It really comes down to this question:

"Do rich people have the same right to their property as a poor person?"

tjeffersonsghost
08-27-2010, 01:45 PM
"Fair share" would be a flat tax meaning that everyone pays an equal rate :rolleyes:

We dont have that. Right now the working class bottom 99% pays a higher % of their income than the top 1%. When you take into considerations all of the write offs and consider that Joe Hedge Fund pays a 15% capital gains tax rate youll find that at the end many in the top 1% pay anywhere between 5 to 15% of their income.

If you are a W2 working class secretary and cant afford an accountant to find you all the write offs you will pay 30%+. Buffet has a great point when he says his assistant pays a higher tax rate than him.

erowe1
08-27-2010, 01:59 PM
When you take into considerations all of the right offs and consider that Joe Hedge Fund pays a 15% capital gains tax rate youll find that at the end many in the top 1% pay anywhere between 5 to 15% of their income.

But that Joe Hedge Fund is paying that 15% on the capital gains of investments he made using previous earnings for which he already paid taxes, often at the top marginal rate. That prior income tax reduced his capital by 35%, and no matter how much it grows, it will be less by that much than it would have been had he not paid that tax.

For example, if he earned $1 Million in income and was left with $650k after federal income tax (let's ignore state taxes for now), and invested it in a hedge fund that doubled in a year, then he'd be left with $650k x 1.85 (after paying the additional capital gains tax), or $1.2 Million. This is a full $650k less than what he would have left if he hadn't had to pay that 35% right off the top when he first earned the capital that he went on to invest. So in a sense he's continuing to pay that 35% income tax in addition to his capital gains. You really can't compare his capital gains tax to his secretary's income tax and say he's paying less.

Same thing goes for the death tax that so many people are fond of as a way to soak the rich. That's a tax on money that has already been taxed once as income (and probably again after that in capital gains).

tjeffersonsghost
08-27-2010, 02:15 PM
But that Joe Hedge Fund is paying that 15% on the capital gains of investments he made using previous earnings for which he already paid taxes, often at the top marginal rate. That prior income tax reduced his capital by 35%, and no matter how much it grows, it will be less by that much than it would have been had he not paid that tax.

For example, if he earned $1 Million in income and was left with $650k after federal income tax (let's ignore state taxes for now), and invested it in a hedge fund that doubled in a year, then he'd be left with $650k x 1.85 (after paying the additional capital gains tax), or $1.2 Million. This is a full $650k less than what he would have left if he hadn't had to pay that 35% right off the top when he first earned the capital that he went on to invest. So in a sense he's continuing to pay that 35% income tax in addition to his capital gains. You really can't compare his capital gains tax to his secretary's income tax and say he's paying less.


First off most people who make a million dollars do not pay a full 35%. Keep in mind there are write offs. After the high powered accountant utilizes all of these write offs you end up paying taxes on a much lower income amount. So if you made $1 million you only pay taxes on $650k of income after all of the write offs. So you pay $227.5k in taxes which is really 22% on your actual income.

Another shelter that is used is to expense much of what would be your income to your business. So in the real world you should of made $2 million but because you expensed a lot of it you only pay taxes on $1 million. Simply put when Joe Blow goes and buys a car he gets no advantage. Joe business owner can expense it to his business and write it off and even depreciate it on their taxes. That is just one of many examples.

Most people don't utilize many of these write offs because they just use an H & R block person to file their 1040 EZ instead of paying thousands of dollars to a high powered accountant. The only real write off the peons get is the child tax credit.

Brian4Liberty
08-27-2010, 02:26 PM
But that Joe Hedge Fund is paying that 15% on the capital gains of investments he made using previous earnings for which he already paid taxes, often at the top marginal rate. That prior income tax reduced his capital by 35%, and no matter how much it grows, it will be less by that much than it would have been had he not paid that tax.

For example, if he earned $1 Million in income and was left with $650k after federal income tax (let's ignore state taxes for now), and invested it in a hedge fund that doubled in a year, then he'd be left with $650k x 1.85 (after paying the additional capital gains tax), or $1.2 Million. This is a full $650k less than what he would have left if he hadn't had to pay that 35% right off the top when he first earned the capital that he went on to invest. So in a sense he's continuing to pay that 35% income tax in addition to his capital gains. You really can't compare his capital gains tax to his secretary's income tax and say he's paying less.

Same thing goes for the death tax that so many people are fond of as a way to soak the rich. That's a tax on money that has already been taxed once as income (and probably again after that in capital gains).

Cry me a river for the hedge fund managers. :rolleyes:

We are all in the same boat with being taxed multiple times. Why is interest income taxed at a regular rate? Maybe because Goldman Sachs and these hedge fund managers have enough money and influence to reduce taxes only for themselves (capital gains), but interest is for peons?

Sola_Fide
08-27-2010, 02:29 PM
And if they dont tax direct they will instill the inflation tax and make us all pay. The inflation tax hurts the working poor and middle class much more.

Exactly.

This entire debate about taxation is secondary to the REAL issues.

AlexMerced
08-27-2010, 02:51 PM
But, in the mean time, I think we need to make up a list of the rich bastards that got us into this mess, don't you agree?

You mean a 100% tax on senators, congressman (except paul), and employees of the federal reserve, fannie, freddie, and the former CEOs of the largest banks?

There was a lot more than rich bankers who got into this mess, you don't need to tax the culprits, they should just to have to pay damages determined by a court

I understand you coming at it from a sense of pragmatism... but soon as you compromise once, you authority is comprimised in any debate in where significant change is being debated.

TO be an outsider, your ideas, your discipline, you knowledge has to be 10x as good as your best mainstream opponent, cause people will always lean in favor of the mainstream so you got to be better.

lucius
08-27-2010, 03:29 PM
The left is doing what the right did under Bush, making sure every policy is justified in the eyes of their voters, with occasional illusion of humility "I'm not saying everything the administration does is good but this issue is this, this, and this."

And while they say this not to seem partisan they never mention something they don't like.

It's politics... it's annoying... and destructive

And the game has been rigged, for a very long time (read my signature)... :(

Brian4Liberty
08-27-2010, 06:06 PM
And the game has been rigged, for a very long time (read my signature)... :(


"Masterful and arrogant wealth, created largely by Government protection of its profits, not content with its domination and influence within a single party, had sought to corrupt them both, and to that end had insinuated itself into the primaries, in order that no candidates might be nominated whose views were not in accord with theirs." (‘Colonel’ Edward Mandell House in 'Philip Dru: Administrator', circa 1912)

Ain't that the truth. And in the mainstream media, any other candidates don't even exist.

tjeffersonsghost
08-27-2010, 06:54 PM
And the game has been rigged, for a very long time (read my signature)... :(

I hope we shall crush in its birth the aristocracy of our monied corporations which dare already to challenge our government to a trial by strength, and bid defiance to the laws of our country.
Thomas Jefferson

Im just saying...

JustinTime
08-28-2010, 05:49 PM
Matt, taxes are going to go up. Obama's administration is planning to go after the extreme rich. Would you rather they increases taxes on the extreme rich, or you?

They'll loot them, and work their way down to to 'regular rich', then 'fairly well off', then 'aint starvin (yet)'. Thats how Marxists operate. Divide everyone up, play one group against another, loot everyone until all are equal in misery except the ones who judged the class conflict.

The whole term "extreme rich" is just silly, as if someone should tell you that you have too much?