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View Full Version : Poll: Should the movement appeal to Muslims?




ibaghdadi
08-22-2010, 03:25 AM
In this thread (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=257903), I asked whether I should write an article introducing Ron Paul to Muslims, both in America and beyond, at the same time introducing Muslims to the founding principles of the USA.

My concern was that in the xenophobic, Islamophobic atmosphere that seems to be taking America, association with Muslims may well become a smear, costing the movement more than the 7M Muslim votes.

I'm putting it to the poll this time. Should the movement appeal to Muslims? Will it be harmful for the movement if Ron Paul becomes known as "the candidate that many/most American Muslims vote for"?

Sola_Fide
08-22-2010, 03:42 AM
In my very very limited experience talking with Muslims, they are more inclined to support Ron Paul because he condemns Israel, not because Muslims love liberty.


I would love to be proved wrong. I would love for a groundswell of liberty-loving Muslims to begin to speak out. I just don't see it right now.


I'm sure I will be flamed relentlessly for this post...

KCIndy
08-22-2010, 04:13 AM
I say go for it, for several reasons.

First, Ron Paul gets attacked for his foreign policy views all the time anyway. He always will be. At one point in time, Dr. Paul's non-interventionist viewpoint would have been considered normal. Now it gets him labeled as a kook.

Second, while those of us who follow politics closely are well aware of Ron Paul and where he stands on issues, I think I'm being realistic when I say that a large majority of Americans - even those who regularly vote - will not have heard of Ron Paul. I would have to assume that this would include a lot of Muslim Americans as well as every other demographic. An introduction could only be a good thing for anyone and everyone who hasn't heard of Ron Paul.

Third, you state that your article would be written with the intent of "introducing Ron Paul to Muslims, both in America and beyond, at the same time introducing Muslims to the founding principles of the USA." I wholeheartedly agree with this idea, but I would encourage you to take it one step further: I would urge you to share your introduction with the non-Muslim American public as well. Frankly, let's face it - very, very few Americans have any knowledge of Islam outside of what they've been exposed to through the news, which will obviously feature acts and statements from violent extremists, or from (mostly neocon) talk radio, where in many cases the pundit him/herself has little real knowledge of the subject. For most Americans, this is their *only* exposure to Islam.

So yes, I would encourage you to write an article or create a video. Make it enlightening and educational. Make it count. A little understand could go a long way in this world.

Kludge
08-22-2010, 04:45 AM
//

libertybrewcity
08-22-2010, 11:35 AM
The movement appeals to everyone. There are what, 6 or 7 million Muslims in the United States? I believe I heard they were the fasted growing religious group in the United States. And that is with good reason; we bomb them and they should be able to immigrate here.

DanK86
08-22-2010, 11:45 AM
I'm cool with it most of the Muslim people I know are really nice and I get along with, plus didn't they come here for our "freedom" I think the support from them would help and also might help with this whole tea party being "racist" imho

brandon
08-22-2010, 11:53 AM
What is "the movement"? We are all a bunch of individuals. Appeal to whoever you want.

WaltM
08-22-2010, 12:15 PM
Good luck telling Muslims we're pro-gay marriage (or anti-marriage), pro-drugs, and anti-affirmative action.

Vessol
08-22-2010, 12:21 PM
Good luck telling Muslims we're pro-gay marriage (or anti-marriage), pro-drugs, and anti-affirmative action.

Not all Muslims are orthodox, the same goes for Christians.

sailingaway
08-22-2010, 12:21 PM
I think we should be who we are, not collectivist, and those for whom the principles are attractive will join us. I would think a lot of Muslims might, others might not, depending on their own hot issues.

dannno
08-22-2010, 01:52 PM
Good luck telling Muslims we're pro-gay marriage (or anti-marriage), pro-drugs, and anti-affirmative action.

A lot of muslims toke up and are anti-alcohol.

Cowlesy
08-22-2010, 02:03 PM
Absolutely should the movement appeal to all groups that Freedom is the answer in politics outside the electoral realm.

Absolutely not if you are trying to win a national election.

ibaghdadi
08-22-2010, 02:14 PM
Good luck telling Muslims we're pro-gay marriage (or anti-marriage), pro-drugs, and anti-affirmative action.


A lot of muslims toke up and are anti-alcohol.

I think many people fudge this point. Libertarians aren't pro-gay or anti-gay. They aren't pro-drugs or anti-drugs. They simply say it shouldn't be the business of government.

A libertarian may well be anti-alcohol and anti-drugs and anti-gay, but he also recognizes that there is no reason for the state to get involved in banning alcohol or drugs. Morality is one thing, legality is another.

Imaginos
08-22-2010, 02:27 PM
Of course.
As Ron Paul said, freedom brings people together.
I don't care if someone is a Muslim/ a Christian/ a Pagan/ an Aqua Buddhist or even a Satanist.
As long as he or she understands and promotes the concept of freedom and liberty, it's all good.

Toureg89
08-22-2010, 02:34 PM
imo (not anti muslim, my dad is muslim), there are just not enough muslims who would vote for us that would counteract the number of nonmuslims who wouldnt vote for us if we tried to appeal to muslims.

muslims represent less than 1% of the population.

we'd have more success appealing to the Jewry than we would muslims.

erowe1
08-22-2010, 02:35 PM
I vote 1 and 3.

erowe1
08-22-2010, 02:58 PM
Good luck telling Muslims we're pro-gay marriage (or anti-marriage), pro-drugs, and anti-affirmative action.

Good thing we're actually anti-gay marriage and anti-drug. And as far as I know, affirmative action isn't something Muslims care about?

Cowlesy
08-22-2010, 03:18 PM
I think many people fudge this point. Libertarians aren't pro-gay or anti-gay. They aren't pro-drugs or anti-drugs. They simply say it shouldn't be the business of government.

A libertarian may well be anti-alcohol and anti-drugs and anti-gay, but he also recognizes that there is no reason for the state to get involved in banning alcohol or drugs. Morality is one thing, legality is another.

^^Spot on.

erowe1
08-22-2010, 03:21 PM
^^Spot on.

+1.

For the record, I agree. My above reply to that was more for the purpose of counterbalance than accuracy.

Stary Hickory
08-22-2010, 06:25 PM
Um sure why not just as long as it doesn't involve idiotic antisemitism and Jew bashing....I mean is this poll really about Jew bashing?

Mini-Me
08-22-2010, 06:29 PM
It really depends on what you mean: Should we alienate Muslims? No, of course not. Should we pander to Muslims for votes? No, because we shouldn't pander to anyone. Still, there's no denying that a large part of the liberty message, especially sound money and a peaceful foreign policy, is and should be very appealing to Muslims.

ibaghdadi
08-23-2010, 08:13 AM
I must say that I didn't expect an 80% approval. I especially didn't expect a "mere" 3% to argue that Islam (or Muslims) are incompatible with liberty. I made the poll private just so that people with a negative view of Islam still feel free to vote anonymously.

Results are quite encouraging. I'll be back.

freshjiva
08-23-2010, 10:18 AM
I think many people fudge this point. Libertarians aren't pro-gay or anti-gay. They aren't pro-drugs or anti-drugs. They simply say it shouldn't be the business of government.

A libertarian may well be anti-alcohol and anti-drugs and anti-gay, but he also recognizes that there is no reason for the state to get involved in banning alcohol or drugs. Morality is one thing, legality is another.

+1. This is what you have to be careful with when explaining to Muslims. Libertarianism doesn't advocate anything that involves personal choices, but rather defends your right to practice them.

I voted yes. Emphatically. Muslims should definitely be introduced to the liberty philosophy, not only to get votes during elections, but to grow our numbers. You can also tailor the message specifically for Muslims by explaining Ron Paul's 30+ year advocacy of building bridges with the Muslim world by opening up free trade and ending our constant interventionism there.

Even for elections, despite the fact that Muslims represent 1% of the American population, that's still 1% of the voting class that just voted for Ron Paul. For a primary, that is a massive number of voters! If we can get just a QUARTER of the total Muslim American vote, that's still a hefty 1.75M votes, more than Ron Paul's TOTAL popular vote count in 2008.

The Dude
08-23-2010, 10:30 AM
Good luck telling Muslims we're pro-gay marriage (or anti-marriage), pro-drugs, and anti-affirmative action.

We're not "pro-gay marriage" and "pro-drugs". At least I am not. We're pro-liberty. What people do with that liberty is up to them. Personal responsibility.

bruce leeroy
08-23-2010, 12:26 PM
well when it comes to muslims.................
on one hand I reserve the right to hate any son of a bitch that prays with his ass in the air and doesnt listen to hank williams sr and drink cold beer...............
on the other hand, any demographic that has sex with farm animals, marries their cousins, and shoots off semi-automatic firearms in the air while yelling religious slogans can't be ALL bad:D:D

seriously though, I can see why americans of muslim faith would really understand and like Dr Paul's message..........I mean look; a large portion of them are small business owners and firearms owners, and, much like "bitter, clinging rednecks" such as myself, they are demonized and stereotyped unfairly by the media and a large part of the population. and also, the fear of muslims, just like the fear of militia types, is often used as a justification to circumvent liberty in our society.

jmdrake
08-23-2010, 12:50 PM
In this thread (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=257903), I asked whether I should write an article introducing Ron Paul to Muslims, both in America and beyond, at the same time introducing Muslims to the founding principles of the USA.

My concern was that in the xenophobic, Islamophobic atmosphere that seems to be taking America, association with Muslims may well become a smear, costing the movement more than the 7M Muslim votes.

I'm putting it to the poll this time. Should the movement appeal to Muslims? Will it be harmful for the movement if Ron Paul becomes known as "the candidate that many/most American Muslims vote for"?

It's a good idea. We actually need to distance ourselves from some of the xeno/islamophobia that's now being associated with the "tea party" movement.

Pericles
08-23-2010, 12:53 PM
Sure, why wouldn't Muslims like freedom and liberty?

Carl Corey
08-24-2010, 02:49 PM
Sure, why wouldn't Muslims like freedom and liberty?
Study the koran and you'll see that libertarianism and Islam aren't very compatible.

YouTube - Three Things About Islam (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ib9rofXQl6w)

Looking at what happened in Europe people won't see anything wrong with Islam until it is too late. For those unaware of the situation, Europe will have a majority of muslim births around 2030 or so.

Unfortunately Ron Paul attacks everything that opposes freedom, except the Islam.

surf
08-24-2010, 03:01 PM
In my very very limited experience talking with Muslims, they are more inclined to support Ron Paul because he condemns Israel, not because Muslims love liberty.

I would love to be proved wrong. I would love for a groundswell of liberty-loving Muslims to begin to speak out. I just don't see it right now.

I'm sure I will be flamed relentlessly for this post...
i find what appeals to the arabs/muslims/etc i speak with and just about everyone else i speak with is getting our troops the fuck out of the middle east and to stop pissing away dollars in middle eastern affairs as well as to cease meddling in their internal affairs.

the campaign was endorsed by an Arab organization in the last campaign. where's hamadeh?

freshjiva
08-24-2010, 03:07 PM
Study the koran and you'll see that libertarianism and Islam aren't very compatible.

YouTube - Three Things About Islam (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ib9rofXQl6w)

Looking at what happened in Europe people won't see anything wrong with Islam until it is too late. For those unaware of the situation, Europe will have a majority of muslim births around 2030 or so.

Unfortunately Ron Paul attacks everything that opposes freedom, except the Islam.

This is not a fair statement. Islam and libertarianism do not seem to be congruous because Islam is a way of life, whereas Libertarianism is a theory of government. They are totally different things. Libertarianism doesn't preach a particular lifestyle or personal choice, whereas Islam does. Its a matter of personal choice, and Libertarianism protects your natural right to choose your faith and live by it.

Your point about Islam growing in Europe doesn't have much merit. If Muslims are killing people and forcing people to convert, that obviously is a violation of the rule of law, and they will suffer the consequences. But if they are growing peacefully and because of personal choices people are making, what's wrong with that?

Your points remind me of the neoconservative tactic of spreading fear to justify constant intervention in the Muslim world.

Carl Corey
08-24-2010, 03:15 PM
This is not a fair statement. Islam and libertarianism do not seem to be congruous because Islam is a way of life, whereas Libertarianism is a theory of government. They are totally different things. Libertarianism doesn't preach a particular lifestyle or personal choice, whereas Islam does. Its a matter of personal choice, and Libertarianism protects your natural right to choose your faith and live by it.
There is no religious freedom in most Islamic nations, and religious oppression in the rest. What happens in the real world supports that Islam and libertarianism is incompatible.


Your point about Islam growing in Europe doesn't have much merit. If Muslims are killing people and forcing people to convert, that obviously is a violation of the rule of law, and they will suffer the consequences.
Muslims are killing and converting Christians in Sudan, and in other nations they make the life of non Muslims miserable enough for people to either leave of convert. Once again the real world doesn't support your argument.


Your points remind me of the neoconservative tactic of spreading fear to justify constant intervention in the Muslim world.
My point is that Islam and libertarianism are incompatible, and as such libertarians should speak out against Islam, and we should keep our relations with Islamic nations to a minimum, which means getting our troops out as soon as possible.

The thing is that people should be as afraid of Islam as they should be of Nazism, do you suggest we stop speaking out against racism as well as it's a neoconservative tactic of spreading fear to justify social intervention?

dannno
08-24-2010, 03:22 PM
Um sure why not just as long as it doesn't involve idiotic antisemitism and Jew bashing....I mean is this poll really about Jew bashing?

Reallly???



















































































Realllly??

Deborah K
08-24-2010, 03:23 PM
Why are people in this movement still categorizing other people????? FFS!!!!!!

freshjiva
08-24-2010, 03:30 PM
There is no religious freedom in most Islamic nations, and religious oppression in the rest. What happens in the real world supports that Islam and libertarianism is incompatible.

Sudan, nor "most Islamic nations" aren't libertarian and lack effective law enforcement, due process, and justice departments. Of course Muslims are killing Christians in Sudan. So are Buddhists killing people in Sri Lanka. Religion is irrelevant. Criminals are criminals and need to be dealt with.


Muslims are killing and converting Christians in Sudan, and in other nations they make the life of non Muslims miserable enough for people to either leave of convert. Once again the real world doesn't support your argument.

Again, you're citing references from non-libertarian nations, where governments are corrupt (maybe not as corrupt as the US government :D ) and often are in bed with the religion of Islam themselves.



My point is that Islam and libertarianism are incompatible, and as such libertarians should speak out against Islam, and we should keep our relations with Islamic nations to a minimum, which means getting our troops out as soon as possible.

None of your examples above prove this. As libertarians, we do not take positions on issues involving personal choices when it comes to making government policy.


The thing is that people should be as afraid of Islam as they should be of Nazism, do you suggest we stop speaking out against racism as well as it's a neoconservative tactic of spreading fear to justify social intervention?

I respect your right to be afraid of Islam. That is your personal choice. However, a libertarian government stays within its bounds and protects your right to choose your lifestyle, not legislate in favor of nor against personal choices such as these.

speciallyblend
08-24-2010, 03:32 PM
spam, register republican and become a delegate and get involved now not 2012.

I voted yes!!!

ibaghdadi
08-24-2010, 06:23 PM
YouTube - Three Things About Islam (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ib9rofXQl6w)

I'm preparing a rebuttal for this video. It's pure BS.

Interesting that we live in a world where a Youtube video is considered "proof" for something.

MelissaWV
08-24-2010, 06:57 PM
I'm preparing a rebuttal for this video. It's pure BS.

Interesting that we live in a world where a Youtube video is considered "proof" for something.

Actually, of late it's just about the only proof people will accept :( I agree with you on both fronts.

Carl Corey
08-24-2010, 08:36 PM
The video explains where the radical Islam is coming from. It's not like muslims wake up one day and roll a dice to determine whether they're going to become a terrorist or not.

I'd love to argue some more, but I unfortunately don't have the time.

mediahasyou
08-24-2010, 08:39 PM
the movement should appeal to all people.