Barack Obama Cozies Up To Islam ... Again

[FrankRep]

http://www.thenewamerican.com/images/stories/AP-1-2010/obama_iftar-t-ap.001.jpg



President Barack Obama's recent remarks about Ramadan and the Ground Zero Mosque called Cordoba House have left observers wondering whether the president even slightly understands America's past or even present. by R. Cort Kirkwood


Barack Obama Cozies Up To Islam ... Again (http://www.thenewamerican.com/index.php/usnews/politics/4314-obama-cozies-up-to-islam-again)


R. Cort Kirkwood | The New American (http://www.thenewamerican.com/)
Monday, 16 August 2010


President Barack Obama's recent remarks about Ramadan and the Ground Zero Mosque (http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=ground+zero+mosque) called Cordoba House (http://www.cordobainitiative.org/) have left observers wondering whether the president even slightly understands America's past or even present. Likely answer: No.

Obama's historical revisionism began on Aug. 11 when he released (http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2010/08/11/statement-president-occasion-ramadan) this statement honoring the Muslim holiday of Ramadan. Ramadan is (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramadan) the ninth month in the Islamic calender and a time when Muslims fast all day until the evening meal, seek forgiveness for their sins and pray for help from Allah. The fasting helps purify them and put them on the path to good works.

The president noted this religious aspect of Ramadan, but then added the following:



These rituals remind us of the principles that we hold in common, and Islam’s role in advancing justice, progress, tolerance, and the dignity of all human beings. Ramadan is a celebration of a faith known for great diversity and racial equality. And here in the United States, Ramadan is a reminder that Islam has always been part of America and that American Muslims have made extraordinary contributions to our country.


Then Obama unbosomed (http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2010/08/13/remarks-president-iftar-dinner) these remarks the annual iftar dinner at the White House. Iftar is (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iftar) the evening meal that breaks the Muslim fast during Ramadan, and is often celebrated in a festive, community setting:



As a citizen, and as President, I believe that Muslims have the same right to practice their religion as everyone else in this country. And that includes the right to build a place of worship and a community center on private property in Lower Manhattan, in accordance with local laws and ordinances. This is America. And our commitment to religious freedom must be unshakeable. The principle that people of all faiths are welcome in this country and that they will not be treated differently by their government is essential to who we are. The writ of the Founders must endure.

We must never forget those who we lost so tragically on 9/11, and we must always honor those who led the response to that attack — from the firefighters who charged up smoke-filled staircases, to our troops who are serving in Afghanistan today. And let us also remember who we’re fighting against, and what we’re fighting for. Our enemies respect no religious freedom. Al Qaeda’s cause is not Islam. ...

So that's who we’re fighting against. And the reason that we will win this fight is not simply the strength of our arms — it is the strength of our values. The democracy that we uphold. The freedoms that we cherish. The laws that we apply without regard to race, or religion, or wealth, or status. Our capacity to show not merely tolerance, but respect towards those who are different from us — and that way of life, that quintessentially American creed, stands in stark contrast to the nihilism of those who attacked us on that September morning, and who continue to plot against us today.


New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg has expressed (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/04/nyregion/04mosque.html) similar stupefying comments, but in any event Mr. Obama clarified (http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/08/14/obamas-support-ground-zero-mosque-draws/print) his remarks to claim he merely was expressing his belief in the right to build the mosque, not the wisdom of building it just 600 feet away (http://www.jihadwatch.org/2010/08/where-will-the-ground-zero-mega-mosque-be-on-ground-zero.html) from Ground Zero.

This left more than a few people scratching their heads, but the blogger named AngryWhiteDude seemed to have captured (http://angrywhitedude.com/?p=5059) the perplexity of those who wondered what role Islam played "in advancing justice, progress, tolerance and the dignity" of man, and what "extraordinary contributions" American Muslims have made to America:



As President Barack Hussein Obama has continually taught the world over the past 18 months, Islam has played a tremendous part of America’s past! Can we overlook the Pilgrims who fled England and landed at Ramadan Rock to worship freely as peaceful Muslims? Who can forget Ahmed Jefferson calling upon Allah to inspire the Declaration of Muslim Independence? Or the Founding Fathers breaking from the rigors of their debates to break for 12 prayers to Mecca each day? Who has not been inspired by Nehan Armstrong’s words as the first Muslim on the moon, "One small step for a Muslim, but I wish it was on an infidel’s throat." I remember my teachers telling of Muhammad Washington chopping down a Jew’s cherry tree and saying, "I cannot tell a lie … unless to an infidel." Ahhh yes, America’s history is Islam’s history!


Republicans were not amused about the Iftar comments (http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2010/08/13/remarks-president-iftar-dinner), but could only say (http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/us_usa_politics_muslims/print) Obama seems "disconnected" and seems to be "waffling" on the issue of whether he really supports the mosque.

But again, as with Obama's other historical errors, his remarks (http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2010/08/13/remarks-president-iftar-dinner) at the iftar dinner have the history of the attacks on Sept. 11, 2001 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/September_11_attacks) wrong as well. Nihilists (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nihilism) did not attack the United States on 911; Muslims did (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hijackers_in_the_September_11_attacks).

Others have noted (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/08/12/AR2010081204996_pf.html) that permitting the consturction of this Islamic edifice at Ground Zero would be akin to building a Japanse shrine at Pearl Harbor.

As well, the left-wing atheist Sam Harris (http://www.samharris.org/site/about/) observed in The Daily Beast (http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2010-08-13/ground-zero-mosque/full/), building Cordoba House (http://www.cordobainitiative.org/) at the site where Muslims killed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hijackers_in_the_September_11_attacks) nearly 3,000 Americans, will appear to millions of Muslims as a victory for their political ideology:



The claim that the events of September 11, 2001, had "nothing to do with Islam" is an abject and destabilizing lie. This murder of 3,000 innocents was viewed as a victory for the One True Faith by millions of Muslims throughout the world (even, idiotically, by those who think it was perpetrated by the Mossad). And the erection of a mosque upon the ashes of this atrocity will also be viewed by many millions of Muslims as a victory — and as a sign that the liberal values of the West are synonymous with decadence and cowardice.


One example of what Harris explains is support for the mosque from the Hamas terror group (http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/printgroupProfile.asp?grpid=6204): "We have to build the mosque," Hamas co-founder Mahmoud al-Zahar said (http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/manhattan/hamas_nod_for_gz_mosque_cSohH9eha8sNZMTDz0VVPI). "We have to build everywhere."


SOURCE:
http://www.thenewamerican.com/index.php/usnews/politics/4314-obama-cozies-up-to-islam-again

[freshjiva]

The Islamic center in lower Manhattan has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with private property rights.

Thank you, Obama, for finally defending private property (even if its just in this particular case).

[Zippyjuan]

"They hate us for our freedoms." One of those freedoms that people in our history fought for was the freedom of religion- to be able to worship whatever God you choose without fear of persecution. Now some want to deny that right to the largest religion on earth because a few who claimed to represent it commited bad acts. Christians have also been guilty of heinus acts supposedly on behalf of their religion in history as well. Perhaps we should ban them as well and not alow them to have churches in this country too. The Muslims do have a right to build their church.


Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;

[RedStripe]

Frankrep, this is probably one of the dumbest articles you have posted on this site, among a strong field.

What exactly is this "The New American" writer upset about? I mean honestly the right-wing propaganda that comes out of that publication gives itself away when it attempts to attack Obama on every little thing, no matter how absurd.

"Obama Cozies Up To Islam" What is this even meant to suggest? What is the reader supposed to take away from this "journalism"? Is there a problem with being respectful of a religion?

The right wing obsession with Obama + Islam is so pathetic and ignorant it makes me cringe on your behalf.

[heavenlyboy34]

Frankrep, this is probably one of the dumbest articles you have posted on this site, among a strong field.

What exactly is this "The New American" writer upset about? I mean honestly the right-wing propaganda that comes out of that publication gives itself away when it attempts to attack Obama on every little thing, no matter how absurd.

"Obama Cozies Up To Islam" What is this even meant to suggest? What is the reader supposed to take away from this "journalism"? Is there a problem with being respectful of a religion?

The right wing obsession with Obama + Islam is so pathetic and ignorant it makes me cringe on your behalf.

+a zillion. I was disappointed to see this on RPFs. It's the kind of thing I expect from Faux News.

[ibaghdadi]

FrankRep, rest assured that Muslims aren't buying Obama's gestures. At least Muslims outside America aren't.

On the same day that Obama gave that iftar speech, US drones killed and wounded some 3 dozen civilians in Pakistan.

My wife is from Pakistan. Her comment? "Obama is killing us softly."

[Austrian Econ Disciple]

+a zillion. I was disappointed to see this on RPFs. It's the kind of thing I expect from Faux News.

It's Frank Rep what do you expect.

[FrankRep]

It's Frank Rep what do you expect.

Building a Mosque near Ground Zero will cause a religious war. You realize that right?

[Austrian Econ Disciple]

Building a Mosque near Ground Zero will cause a religious war. You realize that right?

What do you think has been going on for the past 40 years? Property rights, individual liberty, and freedom > religious right wackos.

[Zippyjuan]

Building a Mosque near Ground Zero will cause a religious war. You realize that right?

Why? What religions will be involved? Just the narrow minded who do not follow what their own religion preaches.

[carlos1215]

There goes the Zionist front JBS again....

showing its anti-Muslim bigotry....

IGNORING the FACT that 9/11 was not carried out by Muslims....

IGNORING the fact that forensic science has now proven that all 3 skyscrapers were controlled demolition...

just like they IGNORED the sinking of the USS Liberty

[FrankRep]

There goes the Zionist front JBS again....

showing its anti-Muslim bigotry....

IGNORING the FACT that 9/11 was not carried out by Muslims....

No Carlos, the JBS isn't secretly (or openly) controlled by the Jews. :rolleyes:

[RedStripe]

Building a Mosque near Ground Zero will cause a religious war. You realize that right?

Haha, oh god please explain. Can't wait to hear this!

[james1906]

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTIKlFFSnKpoLEDKV5rDgCBXJdQy4bXQ HxsxlgggyBnfweHrro&t=1&usg=__pDUmPYRteQkMTSRkqPFZ4Y9bEyE=

In Obama's defense, this cat's name is Islam, and who doesn't want to cozy up to her?

[FrankRep]

///

[RedStripe]

Many atheists died on 9/11. It is extremely offensive to me, as an atheist who knew no one that died on 9/11, who lives far away from NYC, and who has absolutely nothing better to do with his time than to bitch and moan about issues of no consequence simply because I know that my fellow jackasses will join in the wailing, that any christian groups or worship shrines or rituals might be performed anywhere near ground zero.

Furthermore, since all of the hijackers were MEN, I think that the newly proposed YMCA to be built a few miles from ground zero IS A DEEPLY OFFENSIVE GESTURE THAT IS SURELY GOING TO IGNITE A BLOODY AND RUTHLESS SEX WAR BETWEEN MEN AND WOMEN AS THE WORLD HAS NEVER SEEN.

[FrankRep]

Building a Mosque near Ground Zero will cause a religious war. You realize that right?


Haha, oh god please explain. Can't wait to hear this!


Pat Buchanan: (http://buchanan.org/blog/the-mosque-at-ground-zero-4266)


But the issue here is not religious tolerance. There are a hundred mosques in New York City.

The issue here is the appalling insensitivity, if not calculated insult, of erecting a mosque two blocks from a World Trade Center where 3,000 Americans were massacred by Islamic fanatics whose Muslim religion was integral to their identity and mission.

It is no more religious bigotry to oppose the Ground Zero Mosque than it would have been religious bigotry to oppose building a Shinto shrine in 1950 on Ford Island in Pearl Harbor, next to the Arizona.

To Americans, the land on which the twin towers stood is hallowed ground, a burial site made scared by the suffering and deaths of all who perished in the horrifying minutes those towers burned and fell.
...

How would Muslims in the Middle East react to the building of a Crusader House in the Holy Land, funded by the Vatican and built around a chapel dedicated to Pope Urban II?



The majority of Americans, especially Christians, will view this as a slap in the face. Yes, this will cause religious war.

[carlos1215]

for the last friggin time...


MUSLIMS DID NOT DO 9/11!!!!!!....so why are we bashing them for building a mosque?????

www.ae911truth.org

[thehunter]

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTIKlFFSnKpoLEDKV5rDgCBXJdQy4bXQ HxsxlgggyBnfweHrro&t=1&usg=__pDUmPYRteQkMTSRkqPFZ4Y9bEyE=

In Obama's defense, this cat's name is Islam, and who doesn't want to cozy up to her?

I'm allergic to cats!:p

On a more serious note, my dad made a good point today -- wait till someone slaughters a pig on the site of this Mosque; the group will never build there after that (and it won't be long before someone figures this one out)!

[FrankRep]

for the last friggin time...

MUSLIMS DID NOT DO 9/11!!!!!!....so why are we bashing them for building a mosque?????

www.ae911truth.org

I'm not a 9/11 Truther nor do I feel that "the Jews" did it.

[thehunter]

Is anyone else amused that ads for Muslima (a Muslim dating site) keep appearing at the bottom of the pages for this string?:)

[carlos1215]

I'm not a 9/11 Truther nor do I feel that "the Jews" did it.

i know...

u still believe that an office fire really caused 900,000 tons of concrete to turn into instant dust at free fall speed.....i.e. ZERO resistance from lower 80 floors :rolleyes:

good grief

[jmdrake]

Building a Mosque near Ground Zero will cause a religious war. You realize that right?

Only between very stupid people. The mosque is 2 blocks away. That ain't exactly "near ground zero". Jon Stewart may be a prick on some issues, but he has this one down pat. It doesn't matter how far away the mosque is, stupid people will have a problem with it. Some people are mad about a mosque being built in freaking Tennessee. It's got less to do with how close the mosque is to ground zero and more to do with "this is the year to pitch a fit about mosques". I'm disappointed at the New American on this one.

[jmdrake]

I'm not a 9/11 Truther nor do I feel that "the Jews" did it.

I know. You think the KGB did it. The KGB created Al Qaeda to destroy the Soviet Union? To what end?

[BlackTerrel]

Never heard of the NewAmerican before but this sounds like a bunch of Islamophobic tripe meant to play on peoples fears and ignorance.


This left more than a few people scratching their heads, but the blogger named AngryWhiteDude seemed to have captured the perplexity of those who wondered what role Islam played "in advancing justice, progress, tolerance and the dignity" of man, and what "extraordinary contributions" American Muslims have made to America:


Ah yes - that old sage "AngryWhiteDude" what does he have to say on the matter? The country is on the edge of their seat to learn what AngryWhiteDude's opinion is on the Mosque :rolleyes:

[Kylie]

Many atheists died on 9/11. It is extremely offensive to me, as an atheist who knew no one that died on 9/11, who lives far away from NYC, and who has absolutely nothing better to do with his time than to bitch and moan about issues of no consequence simply because I know that my fellow jackasses will join in the wailing, that any christian groups or worship shrines or rituals might be performed anywhere near ground zero.

Furthermore, since all of the hijackers were MEN, I think that the newly proposed YMCA to be built a few miles from ground zero IS A DEEPLY OFFENSIVE GESTURE THAT IS SURELY GOING TO IGNITE A BLOODY AND RUTHLESS SEX WAR BETWEEN MEN AND WOMEN AS THE WORLD HAS NEVER SEEN.




That was sweet.


:D

[FrankRep]

I know. You think the KGB did it. The KGB created Al Qaeda to destroy the Soviet Union? To what end?

Alexander Litvinenko (KGB/FSB Defector): Putin's KGB trained top al-Qaeda terrorists
http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Defector%3A+Putin%27s+KGB+trained+top+al-Qaeda+terrorists-a0135000345

Poisoned KGB defector exposed Russia's backing of al-Qaeda.
http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Poisoned+KGB+defector+exposed+Russia%27s+backing+o f+al-Qaeda.-a0156135285

[BlackTerrel]

Building a Mosque near Ground Zero will cause a religious war. You realize that right?

Nope. More like people will soon chill the fuck out and in a couple months we'll all be on to a new topic. At least I hope.

[BlackTerrel]

for the last friggin time...


MUSLIMS DID NOT DO 9/11!!!!!!....so why are we bashing them for building a mosque?????

www.ae911truth.org

Will this really be for the last time?

I hope so. Because people like you actually make the rational argument for the Mosque that much harder - unless that is your goal?

[jmdrake]

Alexander Litvinenko (KGB/FSB Defector): Putin's KGB trained top al-Qaeda terrorists
http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Defector%3A+Putin%27s+KGB+trained+top+al-Qaeda+terrorists-a0135000345

Poisoned KGB defector exposed Russia's backing of al-Qaeda.
http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Poisoned+KGB+defector+exposed+Russia%27s+backing+o f+al-Qaeda.-a0156135285

Uh-huh. And I've seen claims that the "Jews did it" too. Did you ever watch the Fox News segment about the pre-9/11 Israeli spy ring that got pulled? It's still available if you look for it.

Bottom line is that we created Al Qaeda. You know it. I know it. Secretly the JBS knows it. But it's more "politically correct" to try to point the entire finger at Russia. Oh I don't doubt Russians haven't gotten involved with a few wanna AQs here and there. But the path of death that lead to 9/11 goes right from the CIA to the Pakistani ISI to Al Qaeda. That was even in the latest "Wikileaks" revelations.

Here ya go. Take some time from reading whatever the JBS spits out and read this:

http://www.thenation.com/blog/37941/wikileaks-papers-and-pakistani-intelligence-taliban-connection

Or what about this? The president of Pakistan admitting that the CIA and the Pakistani ISI together created the Taliban?

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/pakistan/CIA-and-ISI-together-created-Taliban-Zardari/articleshow/4508279.cms

No need for defectors and poison. It's just admitted right out in the open.

[FrankRep]

Uh-huh. And I've seen claims that the "Jews did it" too. Did you ever watch the Fox News segment about the pre-9/11 Israeli spy ring that got pulled? It's still available if you look for it.

Check this out:

The Associated Press reported that "Israeli intelligence services were aware several months before Sept. 11 that bin Laden was planning a large-scale terror attack" and that this information was passed on to Washington.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/September_11_attacks_advance-knowledge_debate#Israel


According to Fox News, In August 2001, Israel warned the US that an al-Qaeda attack is imminent. Reportedly, two high-ranking agents from the Mossad came to Washington and warned the FBI and CIA that up to 200 terrorists have slipped into the US and are planning "a major assault on the United States... [on a] large scale target."

Fox News: Clues Alerted White House to Potential Attacks
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,53065,00.html

[jmdrake]

Check this out:

The Associated Press reported that "Israeli intelligence services were aware several months before Sept. 11 that bin Laden was planning a large-scale terror attack" and that this information was passed on to Washington.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/September_11_attacks_advance-knowledge_debate#Israel


According to Fox News, In August 2001, Israel warned the US that an al-Qaeda attack is imminent. Reportedly, two high-ranking agents from the Mossad came to Washington and warned the FBI and CIA that up to 200 terrorists have slipped into the US and are planning "a major assault on the United States... [on a] large scale target."

Fox News: Clues Alerted White House to Potential Attacks
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,53065,00.html

And supposedly Russia tried to warn the U.S. about 9/11 to and Fox News reported that as well.

http://www.historycommons.org/essay.jsp?article=essaytheytriedtowarnus

So if you're trying to use that to get Israel off the hook that gets Russia off the hook. Nice try though.

[South Park Fan]

Building a Mosque near Ground Zero will cause a religious war. You realize that right?

Just like building that Church near Auschwitz caused a religious war. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

[Philadelphia Freedom]

What an amusing topic; the neocons are on fire about it. Seems like they're grasping for a unifying theme because they're uncomfortable with the fact that the GOP is trending libertarian. They reveal their petulance... if one truly believed that these individuals are building the mosque near ground zero to rub 9/11 in our faces then he should respond by saying nothing. Maybe some time in the future say "Oh, there's a mosque there, never noticed."

People who are allowing themselves to be affected by this clearly are engaged in a passive-aggressive relationship with Islam. This (manufactured) story says much more about those angered by it than it does about the motivations of those wanting to build it.

[FrankRep]

Bottom line is that we created Al Qaeda. You know it. I know it. Secretly the JBS knows it.

This is more accurate:

Ghost Wars: How Reagan Armed the Mujahideen in Afghanistan

DemocracyNow.org
June 10, 2004


During Reagan’s 8 years in power, the CIA secretly sent billions of dollars of military aid to the Mujahideen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mujahideen) in Afghanistan in a US-supported jihad against the Soviet Union. We take a look at America’s role in Afghanistan that led to the rise of Osama bin Laden’s al Qaeda with Pulitzer prize-winning journalist Steve Coll, author of Ghost Wars: The Secret History of the CIA, Afghanistan, and Bin Laden, from the Soviet Invasion to September 10, 2001.
...

During most of the 1980’s, the CIA secretly sent billions of dollars of military aid to Afghanistan to support the mujahedeen–or holy warriors–against the Soviet Union, which had invaded in 1979.

The U.S.-supported jihad succeeded in driving out the Soviets but the Afghan factions allied to the US gave rise to the oppressive Taliban and Osama bin Laden’s al-Qaeda.



Yes, the JBS is well aware of this.


Example: (http://www.thenewamerican.com/index.php/world-mainmenu-26/asia-mainmenu-33/1094)


Warren Mass | The New American (http://www.thenewamerican.com/)
Thursday, 07 May 2009


Recall that the origins of al Qaeda go back even further — to the fight by Afghan mujahideen (freedom fighters) against their Soviet occupiers. Through a program called Operation Cyclone, the CIA channeled millions of dollars to the mujahideen from 1979 to 1989. Given the aggressive nature of the Soviet communists (the self-admitted enemies of the United States), and the worthiness of the cause of the Afghan freedom fighters to throw off their oppressors, the operation may have been deemed worthy by many. But here is where the advice prescribed by George Washington in his Farewell Address should have been heeded: “The great rule of conduct for us in regard to foreign nations is, in extending our commercial relations, to have with them as little political connection as possible.”

[jmdrake]

This is more accurate:

Ghost Wars: How Reagan Armed the Mujahideen in Afghanistan

DemocracyNow.org
June 10, 2004


During Reagan’s 8 years in power, the CIA secretly sent billions of dollars of military aid to the Mujahideen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mujahideen) in Afghanistan in a US-supported jihad against the Soviet Union. We take a look at America’s role in Afghanistan that led to the rise of Osama bin Laden’s al Qaeda with Pulitzer prize-winning journalist Steve Coll, author of Ghost Wars: The Secret History of the CIA, Afghanistan, and Bin Laden, from the Soviet Invasion to September 10, 2001.
...

During most of the 1980’s, the CIA secretly sent billions of dollars of military aid to Afghanistan to support the mujahedeen–or holy warriors–against the Soviet Union, which had invaded in 1979.

The U.S.-supported jihad succeeded in driving out the Soviets but the Afghan factions allied to the US gave rise to the oppressive Taliban and Osama bin Laden’s al-Qaeda.



Yes, the JBS is well aware of this.


Example: (http://www.thenewamerican.com/index.php/world-mainmenu-26/asia-mainmenu-33/1094)


Warren Mass | The New American (http://www.thenewamerican.com/)
Thursday, 07 May 2009


Recall that the origins of al Qaeda go back even further — to the fight by Afghan mujahideen (freedom fighters) against their Soviet occupiers. Through a program called Operation Cyclone, the CIA channeled millions of dollars to the mujahideen from 1979 to 1989. Given the aggressive nature of the Soviet communists (the self-admitted enemies of the United States), and the worthiness of the cause of the Afghan freedom fighters to throw off their oppressors, the operation may have been deemed worthy by many. But here is where the advice prescribed by George Washington in his Farewell Address should have been heeded: “The great rule of conduct for us in regard to foreign nations is, in extending our commercial relations, to have with them as little political connection as possible.”

Yep. I said the JBS knew this didn't I? ;) I assume the JBS also knows about the alleged meeting between Osama and the CIA two months before 9/11?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2001/nov/01/afghanistan.terrorism

I assume the JBS also knows that the son of the founder of Hamas was an Israeli agent?

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/haaretz-exclusive-hamas-founder-s-son-worked-for-shin-bet-for-years-1.266204

So I'm not sure why the JBS thinks FSB ties to Al Qaeda are any more spectacular than CIA ties to Al Qaeda or Mossad ties to Hamas. And the end of the day these "terrorists" are nothing but puppets being played on a string. One poster said "muslims didn't do 9/11"? I'm not sure if that's true or not. I do know that muslims acting alone did not do 9/11. And if that's the case then the whole GWOT is a farce. And if the whole GWOT is a farce than a mosque built 2 blocks from ground zero is irrelevant.

[bunklocoempire]

FrankRep, rest assured that Muslims aren't buying Obama's gestures. At least Muslims outside America aren't.

On the same day that Obama gave that iftar speech, US drones killed and wounded some 3 dozen civilians in Pakistan.

My wife is from Pakistan. Her comment? "Obama is killing us softly."

+ 1000.

All we are seeing here, again, is "good cop, bad cop".

Elections are upon us and it's time to pound the supposed "differences" between the two parties.

Who couldn't see this coming a mile away? :confused: :rolleyes:



Bunkloco

[Live_Free_Or_Die]

FrankRep could you post one article from the JBS archive titled:

"President cozies up to Christianity... Again"

[FrankRep]

Yep. I said the JBS knew this didn't I? ;) I assume the JBS also knows about the alleged meeting between Osama and the CIA two months before 9/11?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2001/nov/01/afghanistan.terrorism

* The American hospital in Dubai emphatically denied that Bin Laden was a patient there.
* Washington denied the story.
* CIA Says It Didn't Meet With bin Laden


Do you have other sources?

http://www.911myths.com/index.php/Bin_Laden_met_the_CIA


There isn't a clear indication as to whether this story is true or not, but we do have some issues with it.

First: the account is unsourced. Who is this partner? We don't know. It's a report of what the freelance writer Alexandra Richard says she's been told by this unnamed person. Is her account accurate? Is the unnamed persons account accurate? There's no way to tell.

Second: it was unconfirmed. One or two other newspapers ran it, but they just reproduced what Le Figaro had already said. There was no independent confirmation, at least initially. And actually, an online translation uses the headline "CIA Agent Allegedly Met bin Ladin", which if true sounds a little different.



I assume the JBS also knows that the son of the founder of Hamas was an Israeli agent?


Son of Hamas founder spied for Israel to stop bombers
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article7039011.ece


The son of one of Hamas’s founding members was a spy in the service of Israel for more than a decade, helping to prevent dozens of Islamist suicide bombers from finding their targets, it emerged yesterday.


Yes, the JBS knows this. He's now a Christian too.


A "Son of Hamas" Converts to Christianity
http://www.thenewamerican.com/index.php/culture/family/3112-a-son-of-hamas-converts-to-christianity


According to an Wall Street Journal article (“They Need to Be Liberated From Their God (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703915204575103481069258868.html)” ), Yousef’s spiritual pilgrimage out of Islam not only led him to Christianity, but also into the service of the Israeli government:


"I absolutely know that in anybody's eyes I was a traitor," says Mosab Hassan Yousef. "To my family, to my nation, to my God. I crossed all the red lines in my society. I didn't leave one that I didn't cross. Now 32, Mosab is the son of Sheikh Hassan Yousef, a founder and leader of the Palestinian terrorist group Hamas. Throughout the last decade, from the second Intifada to the current stalemate, he worked alongside his father in the West Bank. During that time the younger Mr. Yousef also secretly embraced Christianity. And as he reveals in his book "Son of Hamas," out this week, he became one of the top spies for Israel's internal security arm, the Shin Bet.

[jkr]

reading the title ,for some reAson i thought of this:

YouTube - Bullwinkle's Hat Trick- All 4 animals.flv (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kRW7pITY5Cg)

[jmdrake]

* The American hospital in Dubai emphatically denied that Bin Laden was a patient there.
* Washington denied the story.
* CIA Says It Didn't Meet With bin Laden


Do you have other sources?

http://www.911myths.com/index.php/Bin_Laden_met_the_CIA


:rolleyes: And the KGB says they didn't have anything to do with Al Qaeda either. So why do you believe the CIA's denial? OF COURSE THEY ARE GOING TO DENY THIS



Son of Hamas founder spied for Israel to stop bombers
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article7039011.ece


The son of one of Hamas’s founding members was a spy in the service of Israel for more than a decade, helping to prevent dozens of Islamist suicide bombers from finding their targets, it emerged yesterday.


Yes, the JBS knows this. He's now a Christian too.


Irrelevant. He might have been a Christian all along. So? He was a Mossad agent all along. The bottom line is that it is admitted that Israel had a high level operative inside Hamas. Besides Israel basically created Hamas. When Hamas was nothing Israel released the founder from prison and undermined the PLO's efforts to destroy Hama. Ron Paul is quite aware of that. He's not trying to make lame diversions from this fact like you are.

YouTube - Ron Paul - Israel Created Hamas 01-09-09 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yb3vF6Vcjr0)

http://online.wsj.com/article/NA_WSJ_PUB:SB123275572295011847.html

Bottom line, it's sad that the JBS is jumping in on the fearmongering just because Obama happens to be on the right side of this issue instead of using this as a teachable moment.

[LibertyVox]

reading the title ,for some reAson i thought of this:

YouTube - Bullwinkle's Hat Trick- All 4 animals.flv (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kRW7pITY5Cg)

Thanks, this is exactly what this sounds like.
Here's my take on the Birchers: They are nationalists, whose universe revolve around the country and their mindset is stuck in a period from which they have never really come out of.

Every country has a core of these natinalists. They fit the traditional definition of patriots. They unlike, say the traditional bombastic pax -Americana interventionist elites (both right and left), do not believe in using American power to do good nor are they internationalists, but they are what one may call monroe doctriners. They worship the flag and the national symbols of the country and believe in its providential destiny.
That is why Ron Paul will never be a Bircher. In their patriotic fervor, they sometimes embarrass. I know of atleast a couple of events where RP was invited to speak on some university campuses by local YAL and C4L chapters, and there was quite a debate if inorder to get the word out and more resources, the local chapters of Republicans, Birchers and other tradiontally wtachmacallit conservative groups should be co-opted. None, sparked more resistance (among the YALs) than having the Birchers out there as one of the event sponsors/supporters. At any other conservative event, no one would bat an eye for including the JBS as part of the parcel, but then YAL and c4L arn't really the traditional conservatives.

Besides, every country has their brand of old school nationalist patriots, so why can't ours ;)

[jmdrake]

I'll say this much in defense of the Birchers. They are a diverse group. Frank doesn't represent the views of all of them. That said for the founder to try to lay 9/11 at the feet of the KGB shows that he (the founder at least) is somewhat blinded by the organization's historical agenda to see the full picture. I'm not saying the FSB couldn't be involved. But to turn a blind eye to CIA, Mossad, and ISI involvement in the creation and training of Islamic fundamentalist terrorism while trying to make it all about the FSB is just inaccurate at best.

Personal note, the first time I met a Bircher (at least someone who told me he was one) was at a local 9/11 Meetup. It was actually all Birchers. The one leading out in the discussion reminded me somewhat of Frank. The others seemed more reasonable (to me anyway). Anyway they all agreed on government involvement on 9/11. (I'm not sure what Frank's position is at this point). I asked the leader if the JBS would consider pushing for the impeachment of Bush over this. His reply? "The people we are trying to reach wouldn't understand and would be against that." Again Birchers are a diverse group and this person may not have been accurately speaking for the organization either. But I was bothered that impeachment would be taken off the table simply for political correctness. That said some of my best friends are Birchers. ;) And I think it's a fine organization overall.

[RedStripe]

Thanks, this is exactly what this sounds like.
Here's my take on the Birchers: They are nationalists, whose universe revolve around the country and their mindset is stuck in a period from which they have never really come out of.

Every country has a core of these natinalists. They fit the traditional definition of patriots. They unlike, say the traditional bombastic pax -Americana interventionist elites (both right and left), do not believe in using American power to do good nor are they internationalists, but they are what one may call monroe doctriners. They worship the flag and the national symbols of the country and believe in its providential destiny.
That is why Ron Paul will never be a Bircher. In their patriotic fervor, they sometimes embarrass. I know of atleast a couple of events where RP was invited to speak on some university campuses by local YAL and C4L chapters, and there was quite a debate if inorder to get the word out and more resources, the local chapters of Republicans, Birchers and other tradiontally wtachmacallit conservative groups should be co-opted. None, sparked more resistance (among the YALs) than having the Birchers out there as one of the event sponsors/supporters. At any other conservative event, no one would bat an eye for including the JBS as part of the parcel, but then YAL and c4L arn't really the traditional conservatives.

Besides, every country has their brand of old school nationalist patriots, so why can't ours ;)

I think that's a very accurate characterization.

[LibertyVox]

The US government did not carry out 9/11. Nor the CIA or the ISI or even Bin Laden. Or Mossad. Mossad maybe had some knowledge of imminent attack, and rejoiced. We can't put it beyond them.

[RedStripe]

The US government did not carry out 9/11. Nor the CIA or the ISI or even Bin Laden. Or Mossad. Mossad maybe had some knowledge of imminent attack, and rejoiced. We can't put it beyond them.

Honestly if 9/11 was a conspiracy by people other than the hijackers, my money is on Mossad.

[FrankRep]

Son of Hamas founder spied for Israel to stop bombers
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article7039011.ece


The son of one of Hamas’s founding members was a spy in the service of Israel for more than a decade, helping to prevent dozens of Islamist suicide bombers from finding their targets, it emerged yesterday.


Yes, the JBS knows this. He's now a Christian too.


A "Son of Hamas" Converts to Christianity
http://www.thenewamerican.com/index.php/culture/family/3112-a-son-of-hamas-converts-to-christianity


According to an Wall Street Journal article (“They Need to Be Liberated From Their God (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703915204575103481069258868.html)” ), Yousef’s spiritual pilgrimage out of Islam not only led him to Christianity, but also into the service of the Israeli government:


"I absolutely know that in anybody's eyes I was a traitor," says Mosab Hassan Yousef. "To my family, to my nation, to my God. I crossed all the red lines in my society. I didn't leave one that I didn't cross. Now 32, Mosab is the son of Sheikh Hassan Yousef, a founder and leader of the Palestinian terrorist group Hamas. Throughout the last decade, from the second Intifada to the current stalemate, he worked alongside his father in the West Bank. During that time the younger Mr. Yousef also secretly embraced Christianity. And as he reveals in his book "Son of Hamas," out this week, he became one of the top spies for Israel's internal security arm, the Shin Bet.




Irrelevant. He might have been a Christian all along. So? He was a Mossad agent all along. The bottom line is that it is admitted that Israel had a high level operative inside Hamas. Besides Israel basically created Hamas. When Hamas was nothing Israel released the founder from prison and undermined the PLO's efforts to destroy Hama. Ron Paul is quite aware of that. He's not trying to make lame diversions from this fact like you are.

YouTube - Ron Paul - Israel Created Hamas 01-09-09 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yb3vF6Vcjr0)

http://online.wsj.com/article/NA_WSJ_PUB:SB123275572295011847.html

Bottom line, it's sad that the JBS is jumping in on the fearmongering just because Obama happens to be on the right side of this issue instead of using this as a teachable moment.


Israel created Hamas, but they became radicalized and turned on Israel like an out of control monster. America made the same mistake by funding the Mujahideen, which later become al-Qaeda.

Israel is smart to spy on its enemies, can't blame them for that.

[jmdrake]

Israel created Hamas, but they became radicalized and turned on Israel like an out of control monster. America made the same mistake by funding the Mujahideen, which later become al-Qaeda.

Israel is smart to spy on its enemies, can't blame them for that.

It's one thing to spy on your enemies. It's another thing to create them. Hamas was not "radicalized". Hamas had the same mission statement from day one. The PLO was a secular group that wanted to retake Palestine and Hamas was an radical Islamic group that wanted to do the same thing but from an Islamic point of view. If Israel thought Hamas was not "radical" when Hamas was formed then Israel is stupid. I don't think Israel is stupid.

But, let's take your "Israel was naive and didn't realize Hamas was going to become radical" argument and apply it to Russia. Nobody not even you disputes the fact that Al Qaeda once fought against Russia. So using your logic Russia trained Al Qaeda's 2nd in command to "spy on their enemies". After all Russia has been fighting a brutal war against Chechen independence and foreign Islamic fighters have been involved in that too. Maybe Russia is just "spying on it's enemies". Did you ever think of that? Why are you willing to make any kind of excuse for Israel, but ignore the same facts and logic as applied to Russia?

[FrankRep]

It's one thing to spy on your enemies. It's another thing to create them.

Israel and Hamas didn't start out as enemies.

Technically, Israel didn't CREATE "Hamas." The precursor to Hamas called Mujama Al-Islamiya, registering the group as a charity. Israel allowed Mujama members to set up an Islamic university and build mosques, clubs and schools.


How Israel Helped to Spawn Hamas
http://online.wsj.com/article/NA_WSJ_PUB:SB123275572295011847.html



When Israel first encountered Islamists in Gaza in the 1970s and '80s, they seemed focused on studying the Quran, not on confrontation with Israel. The Israeli government officially recognized a precursor to Hamas called Mujama Al-Islamiya, registering the group as a charity. It allowed Mujama members to set up an Islamic university and build mosques, clubs and schools. Crucially, Israel often stood aside when the Islamists and their secular left-wing Palestinian rivals battled, sometimes violently, for influence in both Gaza and the West Bank.

"When I look back at the chain of events I think we made a mistake," says David Hacham, who worked in Gaza in the late 1980s and early '90s as an Arab-affairs expert in the Israeli military. "But at the time nobody thought about the possible results."

Israeli officials who served in Gaza disagree on how much their own actions may have contributed to the rise of Hamas. They blame the group's recent ascent on outsiders, primarily Iran. This view is shared by the Israeli government. "Hamas in Gaza was built by Iran as a foundation for power, and is backed through funding, through training and through the provision of advanced weapons," Mr. Olmert said last Saturday. Hamas has denied receiving military assistance from Iran.

[jmdrake]

Israel and Hamas didn't start out as enemies.

Technically, Israel didn't CREATE "Hamas." The precursor to Hamas called Mujama Al-Islamiya, registering the group as a charity. Israel allowed Mujama members to set up an Islamic university and build mosques, clubs and schools.


Israel released the founder of Hamas from prison at a time when the PLO was attempting to crack down on Hamas for setting off bombs inside Israel. Really Frank, you're stretching reality at this point.

See:
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/biography/yassin.html

http://www.mediamonitors.net/hanania46.html

[FrankRep]

Israel released the founder of Hamas from prison at a time when the PLO was attempting to crack down on Hamas for setting off bombs inside Israel. Really Frank, you're stretching reality at this point.

See:
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/biography/yassin.html

http://www.mediamonitors.net/hanania46.html

Let me get this straight. You think Israel is bombing itself via Hamas?

[Ireland4Liberty]

There goes the Zionist front JBS again....

showing its anti-Muslim bigotry....

IGNORING the FACT that 9/11 was not carried out by Muslims....

IGNORING the fact that forensic science has now proven that all 3 skyscrapers were controlled demolition...

just like they IGNORED the sinking of the USS Liberty

Dear god, There is no evidence that the towers was brought down by controlled demolition only spin and half truths by the likes of documentarys like "loose change" and that guy Alex Jones. NO CLEAR EVIDENCE!

It takes 6 months to rig a normal structure half the size of the twin towers and imagine all the people that would have to stay quiet.

That architects and engineers calling for a new inquiry does not mean the US gov was involved.




Frankrep, this is probably one of the dumbest articles you have posted on this site, among a strong field.

What exactly is this "The New American" writer upset about? I mean honestly the right-wing propaganda that comes out of that publication gives itself away when it attempts to attack Obama on every little thing, no matter how absurd.

"Obama Cozies Up To Islam" What is this even meant to suggest? What is the reader supposed to take away from this "journalism"? Is there a problem with being respectful of a religion?

The right wing obsession with Obama + Islam is so pathetic and ignorant it makes me cringe on your behalf.


100% agree. This frankrep is a sheep and I would not say this lightly, borderline troll.

[jmdrake]

Let me get this straight. You think Israel is bombing itself via Hamas?

:rolleyes: I know that Israel released the founder of Hamas after Hamas had started setting off bombs inside Israel. That's historical documented fact and not some ramblings from some dying defector. Do you doubt the historical record on this?

Here. Don't take my word for it:

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/12/30/hamas.profile/index.html
Here are some notable events in its 21-year history:

1988 - The covenant of the Islamic Resistance Movement is published. The group presents itself as an alternative to the PLO.

1989 - An Israeli court convicts Hamas leader Sheikh Ahmed Yassin of ordering Hamas members to kidnap and kill two Israeli soldiers.

April 1994 - Hamas orchestrates its first suicide bombing. Five are killed in the Israeli city of Hedera.

February to March 1996 - The Palestinian Authority cracks down on Hamas, after a series of Hamas-orchestrated suicide bombings in Israel kill more than 50 people. Palestinian President Yasser Arafat condemns the bombings, referring to them as "a terrorist operation." Later, the PNA arrests approximately 140 suspected Hamas members.

1997 - Hamas leader Sheikh Ahmed Yassin is released from prison.

1999 - King Abdullah of Jordan closes down Hamas headquarters in Jordan.

2001 - The U.S. State Department lists Hamas on its official list of terrorist groups.

June 12, 2003 - A suicide bomber disguised as an ultra-orthodox Jew detonates himself on a Jerusalem bus, killing 16 Israelis. Hamas claims responsibility.

August 20, 2003 - A suicide bomber detonates himself on a bus killing at least 20 Israelis. Hamas and Islamic Jihad claim responsibility.

Now once you pull yourself up off the floor after fainting from shock, explain this to me. Why after the PLO cracked down on Hamas in 1996 for setting off bombs in Israel did Israel release the founder of Hamas in 1997? By 1997 Israel knew (or should have known) that Hamas was a serious terrorist threat and not just some "charity" passing out food and copies of the Koran to hungry Palestinians.

Also note THE U.S. DIDN'T LIST HAMAS AS A TERRORIST ORGANIZATION UNTIL 2001! :eek: And that was after Jordan recognized them as terrorists!

[FrankRep]

I know that Israel released the founder of Hamas after Hamas had started setting off bombs inside Israel. That's historical documented fact and not some ramblings from some dying defector. Do you doubt the historical record on this?

Check this out:

Ahmed Yassin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmed_Yassin)



Yassin was released in exchange for two Mossad agents who had been arrested by Jordanian authorities.

Big Conspiracy there! :rolleyes:



In 1989, Yassin was arrested by the Israelis and sentenced to life imprisonment. In 1997 Yassin was released from Israeli prison as part of an arrangement with Jordan following the failed assassination attempt of Khaled Mashal, which had been conducted by the Israeli Mossad in Jordan. Yassin was released by Israel in exchange for two Mossad agents who had been arrested by Jordanian authorities,[13 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmed_Yassin#cite_note-newsbbccouk2-12)] on the condition that he refrain from continuing to call for suicide bombings against Israel.[25 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmed_Yassin#cite_note-Plaw-24)]

[jmdrake]

A organization kills 50 people in one year and they release the leader for 2 soldiers? Two soldiers lives are worth more than 50 dead civilians? You really believe that? :rolleyes: Do you really think Israel believed that? Are you that gullible? Ron Paul doesn't believe that. His view is that Israel created or at least fostered the growth of what it knew to be a violent jihadist organization to serve as a counterbalance to the secular PLO. Remember that at the same time that Israel was releasing the leader of Hamas from prison it was carrying out airstrikes against PLO targets because it publicly blamed the PLO for not doing enough to stop Hamas.

Using your logic would be like the U.S. capturing and then releasing Osama Bin Laden in exchange for some U.S. soldiers and then blaming Iran for future Al Qaeda attacks.



Check this out:

Ahmed Yassin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmed_Yassin)



Yassin was released in exchange for two Mossad agents who had been arrested by Jordanian authorities.

Big Conspiracy there! :rolleyes:



In 1989, Yassin was arrested by the Israelis and sentenced to life imprisonment. In 1997 Yassin was released from Israeli prison as part of an arrangement with Jordan following the failed assassination attempt of Khaled Mashal, which had been conducted by the Israeli Mossad in Jordan. Yassin was released by Israel in exchange for two Mossad agents who had been arrested by Jordanian authorities,[13 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmed_Yassin#cite_note-newsbbccouk2-12)] on the condition that he refrain from continuing to call for suicide bombings against Israel.[25 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmed_Yassin#cite_note-Plaw-24)]

[FrankRep]

A organization kills 50 people in one year and they release the leader for 2 soldiers? Two soldiers lives are worth more than 50 dead civilians? You really believe that? :rolleyes: Do you really think Israel believed that? Are you that gullible? Ron Paul doesn't believe that.

What's your evidence to suggest Israel didn't exchange Yassin for two Mossad agents who had been arrested by Jordanian authorities?

Does Ron Paul have a statement about Ahmed Yassin?

[jmdrake]

What's your evidence to suggest Israel didn't exchange Yassin for two Mossad agents who had been arrested by Jordanian authorities?

Gee. That would be stupid wouldn't it? Jordan was an ally of the U.S. at the time and Jordan soon turned against Hamas and expelled them. So either Israel is really stupid or they had some other agenda. Take your pick. Or would you trade Osama Bin Laden for a couple of CIA agents? Seriously would you? :eek:



Does Ron Paul have a statement about Ahmed Yassin?

I do have a statement from Ron Paul saying that "Hamas was encouraged and really started by Israel because they wanted Hamas to counter Yasser Arafat". I've never seen any statement from Ron Paul that Israel was snookered into believing that Hamas was just a "charity" or that they released a mass murderer just to get back two spies from a country that the U.S. had diplomatic relations with (Jordan). Do you have a statement from Ron Paul backing up your view that the Russian FSB is the primary intelligence agency behind Al Qaeda?

[FrankRep]

What's your evidence to suggest Israel didn't exchange Yassin for two Mossad agents who had been arrested by Jordanian authorities?


Gee. That would be stupid wouldn't it? Jordan was an ally of the U.S. at the time and Jordan soon turned against Hamas and expelled them. So either Israel is really stupid or they had some other agenda. Take your pick. Or would you trade Osama Bin Laden for a couple of CIA agents? Seriously would you?

Thank you for your OPINION then. Let me know when you have some evidence to back up your claims.




Does Ron Paul have a statement about Ahmed Yassin?


I do have a statement from Ron Paul saying that "Hamas was encouraged and really started by Israel because they wanted Hamas to counter Yasser Arafat". I've never seen any statement from Ron Paul that Israel was snookered into believing that Hamas was just a "charity" or that they released a mass murderer just to get back two spies from a country that the U.S. had diplomatic relations with (Jordan).

I can read the Wall Street Journal and get that information.

How Israel Helped to Spawn Hamas
http://online.wsj.com/article/NA_WSJ_PUB:SB123275572295011847.html

However, I would like to find a statement of Ron Paul saying Israel faked the exchange of Yassin for two Mossad agents who had been arrested by Jordanian authorities.



Do you have a statement from Ron Paul backing up your view that the Russian FSB is the primary intelligence agency behind Al Qaeda?


First, I didn't invoke Ron Paul's name when saying the Russian FSB trained Ayman al-Zawahiri, according to Alexander Litvinenko (ex-KGB/FSB)

Second, I didn't claim the FSB was the "primary intelligence agency" behind Al Qaeda. I said the FSB trained Ayman al-Zawahiri, #2 in command under Osama bin Laden.

[jmdrake]

Thank you for your OPINION then. Let me know when you have some evidence to back up your claims.

I already provided the evidence. Let me know when you finally read and understand it. :rolleyes:



I can read the Wall Street Journal and get that information.

How Israel Helped to Spawn Hamas
http://online.wsj.com/article/NA_WSJ_PUB:SB123275572295011847.html

However, I would like to find a statement of Ron Paul saying Israel faked the exchange of Yassin for two Mossad agents who had been arrested by Jordanian authorities.


Straw man argument. I never said any such thing. I said Ron Paul said that Israel encouraged and created Hamas. And he never used your silly "They thought it was a charity" argument.



First, I didn't invoke Ron Paul's name when saying the Russian FSB trained Ayman al-Zawahiri, according to Alexander Litvinenko (ex-KGB/FSB)


And I never said Ron Paul said the swap between Israel and Jordan was "fake" either. But apparently that hasn't stopped you from repeatedly trying to construct that straw man instead of addressing the actual question. Why would Israel swap 2 servicemen for a man responsible for setting off bombs in their country killing 50 people? You never will come forward and actually attempt to answer this.



Second, I didn't claim the FSB was the "primary intelligence agency" behind Al Qaeda. I said the FSB trained Ayman al-Zawahiri, #2 in command under Osama bin Laden.

Based on the ramblings of one dying dissident. The smallest bit of evidence is enough for you when it goes against the "evil commies". And anyway, how do you know the FSB wasn't doing to Al Qaeda what you think Israel was doing to Hamas? (Spying on its enemies) You are consistently inconsistent.

[speciallyblend]

more nonsense stories from the folks on the right or something!! this story is kinda old and beaten to death already along with the ny story!

[FrankRep]

What's your evidence to suggest Israel didn't exchange Yassin for two Mossad agents who had been arrested by Jordanian authorities.


Gee. That would be stupid wouldn't it? Jordan was an ally of the U.S. at the time and Jordan soon turned against Hamas and expelled them. So either Israel is really stupid or they had some other agenda. Take your pick. Or would you trade Osama Bin Laden for a couple of CIA agents? Seriously would you?


Thank you for your OPINION then. Let me know when you have some evidence to back up your claims.


I already provided the evidence. Let me know when you finally read and understand it. :rolleyes:

What evidence did you provide to suggest Israel didn't exchange Yassin for two Mossad agents?



Why would Israel swap 2 servicemen for a man responsible for setting off bombs in their country killing 50 people? You never will come forward and actually attempt to answer this.


Check this out:

Ahmed Yassin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmed_Yassin)


Yassin was released in exchange for two Mossad agents who had been arrested by Jordanian authorities.



In 1989, Yassin was arrested by the Israelis and sentenced to life imprisonment. In 1997 Yassin was released from Israeli prison as part of an arrangement with Jordan following the failed assassination attempt of Khaled Mashal, which had been conducted by the Israeli Mossad in Jordan. Yassin was released by Israel in exchange for two Mossad agents who had been arrested by Jordanian authorities,[13 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmed_Yassin#cite_note-newsbbccouk2-12)] on the condition that he refrain from continuing to call for suicide bombings against Israel.[25 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmed_Yassin#cite_note-Plaw-24)]

Give me evidence to suggest the statement above is wrong.

[jmdrake]

What evidence did you provide to suggest Israel didn't exchange Yassin for two Mossad agents?

What evidence do you have that you don't beat your wife? Seriously what? I'm getting sick and tired of your straw man argument here. I never said or suggest that Israel didn't exchange Yassin for two Mossad agents. But if you think that's the only reason Israel made the exchange then aren't thinking critically.

Ask yourself this question. What would Jordan have to gain by Yassin being freed? King Abdullah cracked down on Hamas just two years later. And there's no evidence of Jordan ever being a primary sponsor of Hamas. And why would they want Yassin freed for the two Mossad agents instead of, say a high level PLO prisoner or in exchange for women prisoners Israel had at the time? The only logical reason Jordon would agree to the release is as a gesture to get goodwill in the Arab world. But they could get that goodwill without the release of this particular prisoner. So the most logical conclusion is that Israel wanted this particular prisoner freed. That conclusion fits the bigger picture that is well documented of Israel wanting Hamas to be a counter to the PLO and Israel already having this prisoner's son as a double agent.

By focusing on whether or not the exchange was "real" you purposefully miss the big picture. I say purposefully because I don't think you're that dull. Just like I don't think you're so dull that you miss the fact that the KGB allegedly training AQ's second in command is no different from Israel having the son of the leader of Hamas as a double agent.



Give me evidence to suggest the statement above is wrong.

Learn how to think in more than 2 dimensions and quit building up strawmen.

[ClayTrainor]

more nonsense stories from the folks on the right or something!! this story is kinda old and beaten to death already along with the ny story!

yyyyyyyuppppppp

[Flash]

He cozies up to Muslims while he slaughters a few thousand of them.

[libertarian4321]

The Islamic center in lower Manhattan has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with private property rights.

Thank you, Obama, for finally defending private property (even if its just in this particular case).

+1776

I have no idea why government at any level is involved in this. It's a contract between a willing buyer and a willing seller.

They have just as much right to build that center as they did to build the Catholic church that's a block away, or the adult video store that's on the next block over.

Let them build it- if people don't like it, they don't have to patronize it.

There is no reason for the government (at any level) to interfere just so some right wing neocons and extreme Christian zealots won't be "offended."