SPLC report on Sovereigns

[ronpaulhawaii]

http://www.argus-press.com/news/national/article_0c499146-5539-5ed9-b2ec-dfaa77e66208.html


They call themselves sovereign citizens, U.S. residents who declare themselves above state and federal laws. Many don't register children's births, carry driver's licenses or recognize the court system.

Some peddle schemes that use fictional legal loopholes to eliminate debt and avoid foreclosures.

A few such believers are violent:...

[Austrian Econ Disciple]

I am awaiting the SPLC report on the AFL-CIO. Awaits with baited breath.

[Danke]

Sovereigns. (not Sovereign Citizens, that's a contradiction).

[ChaosControl]

Is that natives who renounce citizenship?

[pacelli]

Sovereigns. (not Sovereign Citizens, that's a contradiction).

Thank you for pointing that out, it is a contradiction.

Incidentally it is much easier to be a denizen in the US than a sovereign. Much more profitable as well.

[ronpaulhawaii]

Sovereigns. (not Sovereign Citizens, that's a contradiction).

:eek::cool::D

ADL Press Release:

http://www.adl.org/PresRele/Extremism_72/5833_72.htm


According to the report (http://www.adl.org/main_Extremism/Sovereign_Citizen_Movement_Resurgence), the movement is organized around pseudo-legal anti-government conspiracy theories and the "gurus" who create them.

[amy31416]

Sovereigns. (not Sovereign Citizens, that's a contradiction).

Did ya see that they made mention of the fellow you knew?


A few such believers are violent: Two police officers in Arkansas died in a shootout in May after stopping an Ohio sovereign citizen and his son.

Assholes.

[Danke]

Did ya see that they made mention of the fellow you knew?



Assholes.

Ya, been following it.

[muzzled dogg]

are you fucking serious

[WaltM]

http://www.argus-press.com/news/national/article_0c499146-5539-5ed9-b2ec-dfaa77e66208.html

I don't see that as a problem, considering we here are against the Federal Reserve arrogantly declaring themselves above the law and government.

Either we believe somebody is privileged and above the law, or nobody is. Or we believe some laws and some governments are illegitimate, in which case we cannot say that the Fed is wrong for claiming they're above the law.

[WaltM]

Sovereigns. (not Sovereign Citizens, that's a contradiction).

Is that like how you can individualist or creationist, but not "individual liberty" or "creation science" which are oxymoronic?

[amy31416]

Is that like how you can individualist or creationist, but not "individual liberty" or "creation science" which are oxymoronic?

"Church of Scientology" comes to mind....

[WaltM]

Thank you for pointing that out, it is a contradiction.

Incidentally it is much easier to be a denizen in the US than a sovereign. Much more profitable as well.

are you a sovereign?

can you explain to me what profits you've made being one?
What law you've violated and ignored?

(in case it matters, no, I'm not working for the governing entrapping you, I just want to know if you have the guts to brag about what you're able to do, if you're so confident you're above the law and immune from government)

[WaltM]

"Church of Scientology" comes to mind....

funny you should say that.

Seems like you can be a "scientist" but fundamentalist Christians would like us to believe that "scientism" is unacceptable.

But, Scientology is neither a religion nor scientific (by definitions held for anybody who understands and embraces those 2 terms).

[amy31416]

funny you should say that.

Seems like you can be a "scientist" but fundamentalist Christians would like us to believe that "scientism" is unacceptable.

But, Scientology is neither a religion nor scientific (by definitions held for anybody who understands and embraces those 2 terms).

I'm not really familiar with Scientology, but when I was a kid we used to pass one every day and it always confused me....

Why is Scientology not a religion? They make you pay, not unlike many churches "require" (guilt) a person into tithing.

[specsaregood]

But, Scientology is neither a religion nor scientific (by definitions held for anybody who understands and embraces those 2 terms).

Sure seems like a religion to me.
And any organization with the balls to plant bugs in the FBI and IRS offices gets kudos from me.

[WaltM]

I'm not really familiar with Scientology, but when I was a kid we used to pass one every day and it always confused me....

Why is Scientology not a religion? They make you pay, not unlike many churches "require" (guilt) a person into tithing.

Religion is the belief in and worship of a god or gods, or in general a set of beliefs explaining the existence of and giving meaning to the universe, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs

Lack of such, plus an outright business structure of a for profit enterprise.

[WaltM]

Sure seems like a religion to me.
And any organization with the balls to plant bugs in the FBI and IRS offices gets kudos from me.

gets kudos and whether they fit the definition of a religions are 2 things.

[specsaregood]

Religion is the belief in and worship of a god or gods, or in general a set of beliefs explaining the existence of and giving meaning to the universe, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs

Lack of such, plus an outright business structure of a for profit enterprise.

guess it depends on which dictionary you use.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/religion


–noun
1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.
2. a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion.
3. the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices: a world council of religions.


I don't see what having a business structure has to do with anything.

[JenH88]

wow! what a slanderous article... lol... mentioning the most ridiculous theories in the movement too...

lol... it's very telling though that they're even talking about it....

[WaltM]

guess it depends on which dictionary you use.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/religion


I don't see what having a business structure has to do with anything.

ok, put business structure aside.
(even though last time I checked, religions beg for their doctrines to be spread, not sell them and hope only they get to sell them)

what is scientology's
cause, nature, and purpose of the universe,
creation of a superhuman agency or agencies,
devotional and ritual observances,
moral code governing the conduct of human affairs

a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon

I can see how they'd fit the 'adherance' definition, but that's true of any organization, is Ron Paul Revolution a religion by this definition?

[Cowlesy]

Nice, the Anti-Defamation League. Defaming people who disagree with the ADL since, of all years, 1913.

I love how they and the SPLC are essentially affiliates of the DHS espousing nonsense about people who want little other than to be left alone.

[WaltM]

Nice, the Anti-Defamation League. Defaming people who disagree with the ADL since, of all years, 1913.

I love how they and the SPLC are essentially affiliates of the DHS espousing nonsense about people who want little other than to be left alone.

lol, there's even a music group named the "Def League"
http://www.defleague.com/

but i was searching for this article

http://swampland.blogs.time.com/2010/07/31/the-defamation-league/

here's another Jewish website of sister nature (counter hatred)
http://www.fighthatred.com/web-of-hate/holocaust-denial/784-iranian-website-repaints-holocaust-lie

(the toon site they're talking about is by the same people who made irancartoon.com , methinks)

[johngr]

When are they going to start investigating the proliferation of dangerous radical leftist, frankfurt school marxist combination intelligence gathering/social engineering organisations?

[free1]

So basically they are saying all the people in America are loons?

Everyone here is Sovereign.

If you are not, then you are a subject, a surf. The government owns you and everything you own.

2 choices, are you free and Sovereign, or are you a subject class citizen?

Pretty simple.

What they are trying to do is make it look like being Sovereign, meaning above the government, all power flows from the people, etc... is some kind of kooky wild idea.

Don't be fooled.

[bj72]

"They call themselves sovereign citizens, U.S. residents who declare themselves above state and federal laws. Many don't register children's births, carry driver's licenses or recognize the court system."

What is wrong with not registering your child's birth? I would not use the term "sovereign citizen" to define myself currently. The child that I gave birth to last year does not have a birth certificate or ssn (so he is essentially not registered I guess). He does have a notarized birth affidavit (again not registered with any state), along with other supporting documents. It is perfectly legal. As an adult, he may at any time choose to apply for a birth certificate or ssn if he so desires.

The author of the article that made that statement is either an idiot, grossly misinformed, or a tool. We do recognize the court system, but just read the legislation, ordinances, etc....and work to follow them instead of the interpretation of what everyone thinks they say. There are often multiple ways to carry out an ordinance or law, it is just most the public only does it one way. We use driver's licenses because at this time I cannot find a good way not to without being constantly harassed. However, we have met some in this country that have been able to LEGALLY not use driver's licenses while they are TRAVELING in their vehicle. This is much easier if you educate the local law enforcement on the law and then stay in your jurisdiction. Much harder when traveling through multiple jurisdictions has you'd be constantly stopped (or worse) by uniformed law enforcement.

This is total propaganda. They are giving sound bites to the masses so when law abiding people follow the road less taken within the law, their peers will then spout off "you think you are above the law", not understanding the law themselves. It is opening a door for harassment and persecution of law abiding people. And unfortunately because there will always be people who don't know the law....some of those will also be not following the mainstream interpretation, but go off and "try" to do some of things mentioned in the statement (like not use DL, birth certificates). They will do so with an idea of how they think it is or should be, usually gleaned from an article or hearsay, without having fully read the law. Then those people will be used as an example. Not of how they didn't follow that alternate way correctly (or on correct grounds), but as a way to try to convince others there is only one way to go about it. The media does not fully cover the legal alternatives to many activities, but twists the truth and perception.

*sigh* I've even seen some on these boards go after not using birth certificates or ssns.....

[j6p]

Where is John Taylor and his Glen Beck supports, they dislike the soverign movement. But is'nt the RPF a sovergin movement, in of it's self?

[ronpaulhawaii]

I think it is clearly established here that the ADL/SPLC are hate groups/statist tools...

One thing I found curious on my bike ride last year (in protest of these "DHS" reports) was a Sheriff in Vegas who specifically asked about the "sovereign citizen movement." The question told me that the ADL/SPLC had already been seeding the field... That was over a year ago...

[pacelli]

are you a sovereign?

can you explain to me what profits you've made being one?
What law you've violated and ignored?

(in case it matters, no, I'm not working for the governing entrapping you, I just want to know if you have the guts to brag about what you're able to do, if you're so confident you're above the law and immune from government)

I'm not a sovereign. I'm a denizen. I am not above the law, nor am I immune from the government. My status has many limitations, all of which are prescribed by law (not a violation or ignorance of the law which you state above). For instance, I can't hold public office. I can't receive social security nor apply for it. I can't receive food stamps or unemployment. There are more things that I can't do, than things that I can do. I'm not in the position to brag. At the same time, as a denizen, I can hold property, and I can buy, sell, and trade. My business principles are isolated from my status.

There seems to be a misunderstanding that the only way to reside on this land and live here comfortably is by attaining full US citizenship, or by blatantly violating the law as an ILLEGAL alien.

You'll have to code plead Title 8 of the U.S. Code, since I don't have the time to do it for a forum post. But here is something to get you started:

Right of Expatriation:

R.S. § 1999 provided that: “Whereas the right of expatriation is a natural and inherent right of all people, indispensable to the enjoyment of the rights of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness; and whereas in the recognition of this principle this Government has freely received emigrants from all nations, and invested them with the rights of citizenship; and whereas it is claimed that such American citizens, with their descendants, are subjects of foreign states, owing allegiance to the governments thereof; and whereas it is necessary to the maintenance of public peace that this claim of foreign allegiance should be promptly and finally disavowed: Therefore any declaration, instruction, opinion, order, or decision of any officer of the United States which denies, restricts, impairs, or questions the right of expatriation, is declared inconsistent with the fundamental principles of the Republic.”

[JenH88]

What is wrong with not registering your child's birth? I would not use the term "sovereign citizen" to define myself currently. The child that I gave birth to last year does not have a birth certificate or ssn (so he is essentially not registered I guess). He does have a notarized birth affidavit (again not registered with any state), along with other supporting documents. It is perfectly legal. As an adult, he may at any time choose to apply for a birth certificate or ssn if he so desires.

The author of the article that made that statement is either an idiot, grossly misinformed, or a tool. We do recognize the court system, but just read the legislation, ordinances, etc....and work to follow them instead of the interpretation of what everyone thinks they say. There are often multiple ways to carry out an ordinance or law, it is just most the public only does it one way. We use driver's licenses because at this time I cannot find a good way not to without being constantly harassed. However, we have met some in this country that have been able to LEGALLY not use driver's licenses while they are TRAVELING in their vehicle. This is much easier if you educate the local law enforcement on the law and then stay in your jurisdiction. Much harder when traveling through multiple jurisdictions has you'd be constantly stopped (or worse) by uniformed law enforcement.



i feel the EXACT same about the birth certificate & ssn... its the kid's choice if they want to enter into those kind of contracts with the government... i sure wish i had been given the choice... and i wish i had known earlier so i could have given both my children that right to choose.

only solution i really like to the drivers license thing right now is horse and buggy... dont need a license or insurance for that. lol. cheaper on gas too. lol..

could you imagine the gov. trying to tell the founders they had to REGISTER their horses? and ask permission to use the public roads?! :eek:

[amy31416]

Isn't 'national sovereignty' RPF's endorsed position?

[WaltM]

I'm not a sovereign. I'm a denizen. I am not above the law, nor am I immune from the government. My status has many limitations, all of which are prescribed by law (not a violation or ignorance of the law which you state above).

fair enough.