Why are libertarians against people in the liberty movement with gov jobs?

[BoutTreeFiddy]

Let's look at it this way. These jobs exist not because people take them. The gov puts these jobs into existence. So why not take these jobs? If somebody in the liberty movement doesn't take these jobs then some dumbass off the street will take them.

I don't work for the government, but if I was offered a nice cushy job with high pay to do shit work, I'd take it. Somebody else would have taken it anyways.

[YumYum]

Let's look at it this way. These jobs exist not because people take them. The gov puts these jobs into existence. So why not take these jobs? If somebody in the liberty movement doesn't take these jobs then some dumbass off the street will take them.

I don't work for the government, but if I was offered a nice cushy job with high pay to do shit work, I'd take it. Somebody else would have taken it anyways.

Liberty people aren't against government jobs. Hell, they spend time and money trying to put people in government offices. It doesn't get anymore "government job" than that.

[stu2002]

Liberty people aren't against government jobs. Hell, they spend time and money trying to put people in government offices. It doesn't get anymore "government job" than that.

Good point.

There are some anti-Govt types here. If you're anti-govt don't support Ron or Rand as they are part of the govt or trying to become part of it

[Andrew-Austin]

Liberty people aren't against government jobs. Hell, they spend time and money trying to put people in government offices. It doesn't get anymore "government job" than that.

You make it sound like "we" are pro government jobs, which is completely ridiculous. Maybe a liberal libertarian like yourself is pro-unproductive-jobs-paid-for-by-plunder, but I think you are but a very small number among the broad libertarian spectrum.

One must consider what we seek to accomplish by putting people in representative posts. These are people who if put in office and had their way, would take away a lot more government jobs than their measly occupation of a single post. Don't both Schiff and Rand want to at max serve only one or two terms? Its because they are reluctant to take the job to begin with, they don't seek the job for the money but to temporarily test how the power of the office can be used to steer the country down a more libertarian path. This is a far cry from taking some run of the mill government job for just the money and safety it provides.

I can't argue against the logic that the job would exist and be filled anyways.. But it is just aesthetically gross knowing that a person who is so conscious of how wasteful and bankrupt a government position is, knowingly turns himself in to a leach. Yes, if you were not the leach someone else would be the leach. Why not then let it be someone who is bankrupt of morals and character, let someone more fitting for the job take it. This would be better than tarnishing the philosophy of libertarianism and individualism with such a lowly amount of responsibility in being-the-change-you-wish to-see. If you take a government job and discuss the matter with non-libertarians, don't bother to mention that you are (hypothetically anyways) a libertarian, lest they balk at the lot of us as just a bunch of hypocrites.

If one does take a government job one knows is pointless and unproductive, the only moral thing one could do after that is to make sure to do a horrible job even if it eventually gets you fired. The only way a libertarian could be an IRS agent is if he intentionally made sure that all the tax forms he checked paid the minimum amount possible. That is if you come across people who are trying to "cheat" on their taxes, let them succeed in doing so that the plunder you are being paid with is negated.

[djdellisanti4]

http://transcendy.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/ron.jpg



“I’ve been quite open about this around the office: I don’t want this parks department to build any parks, because I don’t believe in government. I think that all government is a waste of taxpayer money. My dream is to have the park system privatized and run entirely for profit by corporations, like Chuck E. Cheese. They have an impeccable business model. I would rather work for Chuck E. Cheese.”


My idea of a perfect government is one guy who sits in a small room at a desk, and the only thing he’s allowed to decide is who to nuke. The man is chosen based on some kind of IQ test, and maybe also a physical tournament, like a decathlon. And women are brought to him, maybe ... when he desires them.”

[ninepointfive]

If I were to combine the two college degrees I have, It's practically guaranteed I would be applying to jobs in the BLM or other such land management agencies. It also looks like they post job descriptions with no such intention of hiring. It's really depressing knowing this. Conducting job searches in my area and across the country, I can't really find anything too exiting.

Pay, hours, benefits, and location. Currently, I don't make enough money to get a nice place, and proactively fix my teeth at the dentist.

[Agorism]

Only if they worked in the private sector first. Most people naturally want to raise a family. Once that happens, their focus becomes on maintaining the family unit at all costs.

This causes extreme corruption since they have become part of the government and are dependent on it. Hence their focus becomes maintaining power.

[YumYum]

If I were to combine the two college degrees I have, It's practically guaranteed I would be applying to jobs in the BLM or other such land management agencies. It also looks like they post job descriptions with no such intention of hiring. It's really depressing knowing this. Conducting job searches in my area and across the country, I can't really find anything too exiting.

Pay, hours, benefits, and location. Currently, I don't make enough money to get a nice place, and proactively fix my teeth at the dentist.

If that is the case, you have really no one to blame but yourself. I would give anything to work outdoors for the BLM or the National Forest. My suggestion, go take the government job and get your teeth fixed.

I find it hypocritical on some people's part (not you) that they find it immoral as a Libertarian to work for the government, but find it very moral to cheat on their taxes.

[akforme]

If that is the case, you have really no one to blame but yourself. I would give anything to work outdoors for the BLM or the National Forest. My suggestion, go take the government job and get your teeth fixed.

I find it hypocritical on some people's part (not you) that they find it immoral as a Libertarian to work for the government, but find it very moral to cheat on their taxes.

Since taxes are theft, and government jobs are paid for by taxes, I think taxes and government jobs are immoral. Your example was weak and very strawman like.

The problem with working for the government is you turn out like my father-in-law, so fucking brainwashed that you can't see the truth until they knock down your door and take you away.

I couldn't work for the government because I'm not a hypocrite, I think 98% of government jobs are BS, and I'm not going to take one because I wouldn't be able to look in the mirror. The biggest thing I like about libertarians is the lack of hypocrisy compared to the left or the right.

[puppetmaster]

If that is the case, you have really no one to blame but yourself. I would give anything to work outdoors for the BLM or the National Forest. My suggestion, go take the government job and get your teeth fixed.

I find it hypocritical on some people's part (not you) that they find it immoral as a Libertarian to work for the government, but find it very moral to cheat on their taxes.

Taxes are immoral and theft, and keeping what is rightfully yours is not cheating.

It's a shame.....

[Rocket80]

I struggle with this as well - I'm an engineer for the local Dept. of Transportation. I took the job before I had all my political views figured out so it wasn't a problem at the time. I do struggle with it and do feel like a hypocrite often but only to like-minded people as myself. I don't feel guilty feeding off the tax payers who support big government departments like mine (which is most in my liberal city), and I'll often take the opportunity to brag to these people about my huge salary, cushy job and awesome benefits - not to mention I can never lose my job because of my union; while they are struggling in the private sector.

I've definitely gotten through to some of these people, not to mention people at my job, a few of which I convinced to vote 'no union' in our union decert. election. In fact, enough voted 'no union' to prevent either union from getting a majority so it forced a run-off. I was bragging around the office that I'm partly responsible for that and people just hated it an thought I was crazy. I make my case pretty well though. I freely discuss with people in my office how I advocate the elimination of all of our jobs and how the private sector could do all this work far more efficiently, etc etc. One day I hope to be able to leave, the problem is the economy and jobs and all that of course.

[Philhelm]

I don't see how one who is generally opposed to government jobs, who actually takes a government job, is necessarily a hypcrite. As the public sector expands, at the expense of the private sector, choices become more limited. Would your conviction be so strong that you would not work a government job even if you were unemployed and desperate? Are people who are unemployed, and end up taking a government job a bunch of evil statists? As already brought up, should every teacher in our public schools support the nanny state and teachers' unions? My view on this is "don't hate the player; hate the game." If people try to make a living in the defunct system we have now, it is far from me to blame them for taking a government job. In the meantime, I will continue to vote for those who wish to reduce the public sector.

And no, I don't have a government job, or any job for that matter.

[MikeStanart]

I think it's fairly obvious that we're all for smaller government. In an ideal world bureaucrats would take queues from the population and serve them instead of enforcing their own will because they believe it's "best for us". But we all know we don't live in an ideal world. I think on some level it would be in the liberty movement's interests to infiltrate several government positions (bureaucratic - not necessarily elected) in order to wield the positions "power" with minimal enforcement. The question is, do we wind up getting fired for our values? Or do we stay in power long enough for us to become the villan? We just have to ensure we keep ourselves in-check.

[Anti Federalist]

Since taxes are theft, and government jobs are paid for by taxes, I think taxes and government jobs are immoral. Your example was weak and very strawman like.

The problem with working for the government is you turn out like my father-in-law, so fucking brainwashed that you can't see the truth until they knock down your door and take you away.

I couldn't work for the government because I'm not a hypocrite, I think 98% of government jobs are BS, and I'm not going to take one because I wouldn't be able to look in the mirror. The biggest thing I like about libertarians is the lack of hypocrisy compared to the left or the right.

That, that and that. +1776

Ten years ago I turned down a lucrative job as a civilian naval employee because I would not have been able to live with myself, knowing that every dollar I made was a dollar extorted from some fellow citizen somewhere.

I wouldn't have been able to look at myself or look at anybody else for that matter, without feeling like a pure hypocrite.

[Kludge]

I support EVERYONE taking government jobs (with the sole exception of a job which requires you kill others impersonally) and doing their work as poorly as possible.

Worked for the Jews. ... Kind of.

[jsu718]

I wouldn't be opposed to working for the govt. Whatever it takes to get my money in vs money out with the government as close to 0 as possible.

[Anti Federalist]

I don't see how one who is generally opposed to government jobs, who actually takes a government job, is necessarily a hypcrite. As the public sector expands, at the expense of the private sector, choices become more limited. Would your conviction be so strong that you would not work a government job even if you were unemployed and desperate? Are people who are unemployed, and end up taking a government job a bunch of evil statists? As already brought up, should every teacher in our public schools support the nanny state and teachers' unions? My view on this is "don't hate the player; hate the game." If people try to make a living in the defunct system we have now, it is far from me to blame them for taking a government job. In the meantime, I will continue to vote for those who wish to reduce the public sector.

And no, I don't have a government job, or any job for that matter.

I guess there is a positive side to this.

Just as Social Security has crossed the Rubicon, soon government will jobs will as well, in that there will be more people working for the government than actually producing and paying for all those jobs, thus bringing the day of reckoning that much closer.

[MikeStanart]

Since taxes are theft, and government jobs are paid for by taxes, I think taxes and government jobs are immoral. Your example was weak and very strawman like.

The problem with working for the government is you turn out like my father-in-law, so fucking brainwashed that you can't see the truth until they knock down your door and take you away.

I couldn't work for the government because I'm not a hypocrite, I think 98% of government jobs are BS, and I'm not going to take one because I wouldn't be able to look in the mirror. The biggest thing I like about libertarians is the lack of hypocrisy compared to the left or the right.

I completely agree with you if we're talking about any federal "feet on the desk", mindless, brainwashing position. I would personally never, ever, ever take a job like that. But what about positions of local power like a sherriff? Mayor? Or even a city council position? These positions can do a LOT for the cause of liberty.

[Mini-Me]

You make it sound like "we" are pro government jobs, which is completely ridiculous. Maybe a liberal libertarian like yourself is pro-unproductive-jobs-paid-for-by-plunder, but I think you are but a very small number among the broad libertarian spectrum.

One must consider what we seek to accomplish by putting people in representative posts. These are people who if put in office and had their way, would take away a lot more government jobs than their measly occupation of a single post. Don't both Schiff and Rand want to at max serve only one or two terms? Its because they are reluctant to take the job to begin with, they don't seek the job for the money but to temporarily test how the power of the office can be used to steer the country down a more libertarian path. This is a far cry from taking some run of the mill government job for just the money and safety it provides.

I can't argue against the logic that the job would exist and be filled anyways.. But it is just aesthetically gross knowing that a person who is so conscious of how wasteful and bankrupt a government position is, knowingly turns himself in to a leach. Yes, if you were not the leach someone else would be the leach. Why not then let it be someone who is bankrupt of morals and character, let someone more fitting for the job take it. This would be better than tarnishing the philosophy of libertarianism and individualism with such a lowly amount of responsibility in being-the-change-you-wish to-see. If you take a government job and discuss the matter with non-libertarians, don't bother to mention that you are (hypothetically anyways) a libertarian, lest they balk at the lot of us as just a bunch of hypocrites.

If one does take a government job one knows is pointless and unproductive, the only moral thing one could do after that is to make sure to do a horrible job even if it eventually gets you fired. The only way a libertarian could be an IRS agent is if he intentionally made sure that all the tax forms he checked paid the minimum amount possible. That is if you come across people who are trying to "cheat" on their taxes, let them succeed in doing so that the plunder you are being paid with is negated.

Ultimately, I think it really comes down to what you do with your job, as your last paragraph indicates. If you're a libertarian taking a government job for the pay and benefits, you're a hypocritical sellout. If you're a libertarian taking the job to deliberately keep a stupid/power-hungry statist out and to find ways to reduce the size/scope/oppressiveness of government from the inside, then you're ultimately making a net positive contribution to liberty (and humanity) by taking the job.

When I think about it from a utilitarian point of view, I'd much rather have a bunch of well-educated libertarians taking over government positions from the inside than simply leave all of the positions of coercive power to the kind of people who actually believe in them. I'd much rather deal with sympathetic cops and bureaucrats than non-sympathetic ones. You may not be able to make sweeping changes from a bureaucratic/enforcement job, but you can save innocent people from being picked on, one at a time. Cop? Choose not to harass the FIJA pamphleter, or the guy you see smoking weed. CPS worker? Have a heart, and don't harass innocent people to make a "quota."

Of course, Agorism makes an important point about corruption and selfishness...any libertarian taking a government job needs make sure never to forget why they took the job (and it's not for the same reason anyone else would take the job ;)).

[heavenlyboy34]

That, that and that. +1776

Ten years ago I turned down a lucrative job as a civilian naval employee because I would not have been able to live with myself, knowing that every dollar I made was a dollar extorted from some fellow citizen somewhere.

I wouldn't have been able to look at myself or look at anybody else for that matter, without feeling like a pure hypocrite.

You are awesome. :cool::D

[Anti Federalist]

Ultimately, I think it really comes down to what you do with your job, as your last paragraph indicates. If you're a libertarian taking a government job for the pay and benefits, you're a hypocritical sellout. If you're a libertarian taking the job to deliberately keep a stupid/power-hungry statist out and to find ways to reduce the size/scope/oppressiveness of government from the inside, then you're ultimately making a net positive contribution to liberty (and humanity) by taking the job.

When I think about it from a utilitarian point of view, I'd much rather have a bunch of well-educated libertarians taking over government positions from the inside than simply leave all of the positions of coercive power to the kind of people who actually believe in them. I'd much rather deal with sympathetic cops and bureaucrats than non-sympathetic ones. You may not be able to make sweeping changes from a bureaucratic/enforcement job, but you can save innocent people from being picked on, one at a time.

Of course, Agorism makes an important point about corruption and selfishness...any libertarian taking a government job needs make sure never to forget why they took the job (and it's not for the same reason anyone else would take the job ;)).

I think that those types of jobs are in the minority.

The vast bulk of the make work government positions do not have the capability of making any sort of difference to the way in which the system interacts with the people.

[Mini-Me]

I think that those types of jobs are in the minority.

The vast bulk of the make work government positions do not have the capability of making any sort of difference to the way in which the system interacts with the people.

You're probably right, but that's not necessarily a bad thing, because it swings both ways: If you look at it the right way, it just means we have a smaller number of jobs to take over to produce some bottom-up change...and the people in all the other government positions won't be able to do a damn thing about it. ;)

[Anti Federalist]

You are awesome. :cool::D

LoL, I don't about awesome, but thanks.

All in all, I'm still glad I did it, even though it cost me a little in the long run.

[Anti Federalist]

You're probably right, but that's not necessarily a bad thing, because it swings both ways: If you look at it the right way, it just means we have a smaller number of jobs to take over to produce some bottom-up change...and the people in all the other government positions won't be able to do a damn thing about it. ;)

That's one way of looking at it. ;)

[YumYum]

I struggle with this as well - I'm an engineer for the local Dept. of Transportation. I took the job before I had all my political views figured out so it wasn't a problem at the time. I do struggle with it and do feel like a hypocrite often but only to like-minded people as myself. I don't feel guilty feeding off the tax payers who support big government departments like mine (which is most in my liberal city), and I'll often take the opportunity to brag to these people about my huge salary, cushy job and awesome benefits - not to mention I can never lose my job because of my union; while they are struggling in the private sector.

I've definitely gotten through to some of these people, not to mention people at my job, a few of which I convinced to vote 'no union' in our union decert. election. In fact, enough voted 'no union' to prevent either union from getting a majority so it forced a run-off. I was bragging around the office that I'm partly responsible for that and people just hated it an thought I was crazy. I make my case pretty well though. I freely discuss with people in my office how I advocate the elimination of all of our jobs and how the private sector could do all this work far more efficiently, etc etc. One day I hope to be able to leave, the problem is the economy and jobs and all that of course.

You have nothing to feel guilty about. Your post says "I shan't and I won't, but I do and I don't, and I can't but I will." Why are you on a guilt trip? You have done nothing illegal.

The framers of our Constitution gave Congress the power to tax and gave the states the right to tax. We have 300 million people in this country who apparently agree with the framers of the Constitution. The system is so messed up we can debate all day what is right and wrong. Libertarians have been doing it since 1971, and where has it got them?

The only way we are going to live in the guilt free, "Free Market Utopia" that everyone drools about, is that this current system must first completely collapse, which it is going to do. You should be glad that you have your job and my advice to you is to hold on to it for as long as you can. You most likely will be laid off when things get worse.

[BoutTreeFiddy]

Refusing to take government jobs doesn't do anything to shrink the size of the government. It simply doesn't. I'll take my tax dollars back in whatever way possible and then some. If we have such a system in place where some people can rob others, then I'd rather be the one robbing than getting robbed. Until the system changes, I would take all the stolen money I could get my hands on.

If it's out for the taking, then take it because someone else surely will.

[YumYum]

Refusing to take government jobs doesn't do anything to shrink the size of the government. It simply doesn't. I'll take my tax dollars back in whatever way possible and then some. If we have such a system in place where some people can rob others, then I'd rather be the one robbing than getting robbed. Until the system changes, I would take all the stolen money I could get my hands on.

If it's out for the taking, then take it because someone else surely will.

I agree wholeheartedly. Why should someone be a martyr in their mom's basement?

[BoutTreeFiddy]

I agree wholeheartedly. Why should someone be a martyr in their mom's basement?

Exactamundo mi amigro.

[dannno]

I struggle with this as well - I'm an engineer for the local Dept. of Transportation. I took the job before I had all my political views figured out so it wasn't a problem at the time. I do struggle with it and do feel like a hypocrite often but only to like-minded people as myself. I don't feel guilty feeding off the tax payers who support big government departments like mine (which is most in my liberal city), and I'll often take the opportunity to brag to these people about my huge salary, cushy job and awesome benefits - not to mention I can never lose my job because of my union; while they are struggling in the private sector.

I've definitely gotten through to some of these people, not to mention people at my job, a few of which I convinced to vote 'no union' in our union decert. election. In fact, enough voted 'no union' to prevent either union from getting a majority so it forced a run-off. I was bragging around the office that I'm partly responsible for that and people just hated it an thought I was crazy. I make my case pretty well though. I freely discuss with people in my office how I advocate the elimination of all of our jobs and how the private sector could do all this work far more efficiently, etc etc. One day I hope to be able to leave, the problem is the economy and jobs and all that of course.


Sounds good as long as you are emphasizing that all of you could be re-hired in the private sector doing basically the same thing.

[Elwar]

I work for the evil "military industrial complex". I'd rather have libertarians in government jobs voting against those government jobs than have liberals who are dependent on those jobs giving their sob stories to the voters every time their job was on the line because of budget cuts.

When Ron Paul was running I was hoping he would get elected and put me out of a job. I would gladly get fired in exchange for more freedom.

But the idiots keep me employed. I'll take their money (and yours and mine) and spend it on myself and liberty candidates, not on any big government candidates.

If every government worker were a libertarian...government jobs would go away quickly.

[YumYum]

But the idiots keep me employed. I'll take their money (and yours and mine) and spend it on myself and liberty candidates, not on any big government candidates.

If every government worker were a libertarian...government jobs would go away quickly.

Only when everything collapses can we have a Libertarian society. If you spent your money on big government candidates who are corrupt, you would help bring the end much quicker, and you would be able to realize your dream before you die. Otherwise, you will pay 90% in taxes till you drop.

Its too late to turn this around. torchbearer has touched on this point.