Dear god... Look at the responses I got when I posted about wikileaks...

[Reason]

Sometimes it's hard to have hope for the future of this country... :(

http://www.politicalforum.com/current-events/143419-wikileaks-editor-detained-us-customs-agents.html

http://www.usmessageboard.com/current-events/127161-wikileaks-editor-detained-by-us-customs-agents.html

[Reason]

If he wants to affect US military policy, he can run for office in the US.

He is an anarchist.

Waterboard him.


I am in full support of the U.S. military and the Pentagon on this one, and I hope that justice prevails, preferably by firing squad for treason.

/vomit

[Matt Collins]

Try posting it over on http://forums.hannity.com

[free1]

I think you have found a good way to expose the government shills :)

[libertybrewcity]

how will we ever get through to these people?

one thing that might lighten them up a bit would be to post the video where the helicopter soldiers kill the kid and journalist in the van.

[CryLibertyOrDeath]

Posting the names of the informants was classless. I oppose the war, but I have no love for Bradley Manning. He did it because he was angry at the army, not because he thought it was the right thing to do.

[Reason]

Posting the names of the informants was classless. I oppose the war, but I have no love for Bradley Manning. He did it because he was angry at the army, not because he thought it was the right thing to do.

I don't buy the MSM hype about that aspect. Seems very overblown.

[talkingpointes]

Walt M, do you care to chime in ?

[Kregisen]

Walt M, do you care to chime in ?


lol

[TNforPaul45]

how will we ever get through to these people?

one thing that might lighten them up a bit would be to post the video where the helicopter soldiers kill the kid and journalist in the van.

I doubt even that would help. They would just say "Casulties of War, can't be helped. Freedom ISNT FREEEEEEEEEEE." and then they would walk off the cliff.

[Austrian Econ Disciple]

The statist in me says to draft everyone who is Pro-War and send them over there if they are so gung-ho. We'll see how fast they change their minds.

(Live Free your sarcastic tone is rubbing off on me :p)

[Pericles]

Posting the names of the informants was classless. I oppose the war, but I have no love for Bradley Manning. He did it because he was angry at the army, not because he thought it was the right thing to do.

That would be the primary reservation I would have - providing information so that people can be targeted for murder is making a huge ethical call.

As a rule, I support the right of the citizens to know how the military that represents the country is performing, with the exception of future plans and operations, and sources and means of intel.

[Baptist]

Heh, you should read the comments under Wikileaks articles at Huffington Post and MSNBC. Even the left is calling Wikileaks traitors. This country is toast.

[LibertyEagle]

That would be the primary reservation I would have - providing information so that people can be targeted for murder is making a huge ethical call.

As a rule, I support the right of the citizens to know how the military that represents the country is performing, with the exception of future plans and operations, and sources and means of intel.

I agree with you.

[pcosmar]

Posting the names of the informants was classless. I oppose the war, but I have no love for Bradley Manning. He did it because he was angry at the army, not because he thought it was the right thing to do.

You know,,The documents are available.
And this has been asked several times and in several threads.
WHAT NAMES ?

So far all I have seen is the name of someone who was dead 2 years before the release of these documents.

If you make the claim that names are released , Post Proof.

else STFU

[Austrian Econ Disciple]

There should be no state secrets. We couldn't even keep the Nuclear Bomb technology secret for more than 3 years. The only thing state secrets do is keep the public subdued, and uninformed. If you want to end these wars, stop keeping them secret. If you actually believe that most of US C/S and above is unbeknownst to other countries I have some snake oil to sell you.

[pcosmar]

Southern Avenger is right on target again.

YouTube - SA@TAC - Obama is a Threat to National Security (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EXzzYBhOi4E)

The only people that this release is a threat to is the US government and the Media that has been covering up for them, rather than reporting this story themselves.

[heavenlyboy34]

There should be no state secrets. We couldn't even keep the Nuclear Bomb technology secret for more than 3 years. The only thing state secrets do is keep the public subdued, and uninformed. If you want to end these wars, stop keeping them secret. If you actually believe that most of US C/S and above is unbeknownst to other countries I have some snake oil to sell you.

+a zillion. :cool:

[Todd]

That would be the primary reservation I would have - providing information so that people can be targeted for murder is making a huge ethical call.

As a rule, I support the right of the citizens to know how the military that represents the country is performing, with the exception of future plans and operations, and sources and means of intel.

+1

[TheeJoeGlass]

how will we ever get through to these people?

one thing that might lighten them up a bit would be to post the video where the helicopter soldiers kill the kid and journalist in the van.

We will never get through to the other side because they are on the Government teet. People have to understand that soo many people are employed by the Federal Government. And you dont bite the hand that feeds.

[Andrew-Austin]

You know,,The documents are available.
And this has been asked several times and in several threads.
WHAT NAMES ?

So far all I have seen is the name of someone who was dead 2 years before the release of these documents.

If you make the claim that names are released , Post Proof.

else STFU

From my understanding Wikileaks didn't reveal any names but Bradley Manning (or whatever his name) did?

[aravoth]

Posting the names of the informants was classless. I oppose the war, but I have no love for Bradley Manning. He did it because he was angry at the army, not because he thought it was the right thing to do.

He says exactly why he did it here..

http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2010/06/wikileaks-chat/


(02:18:34 AM) Lamo: what’s your endgame plan, then?
(02:18:36 AM) Manning: it was vulnerable as fuck
(02:20:57 AM) Manning: well, it was forwarded to WL
(02:21:18 AM) Manning: and god knows what happens now
(02:22:27 AM) Manning: hopefully worldwide discussion, debates, and reforms
(02:23:06 AM) Manning: if not… than we’re doomed
(02:23:18 AM) Manning: as a species
(02:24:13 AM) Manning: i will officially give up on the society we have if nothing happens
(02:24:58 AM) Manning: the reaction to the video gave me immense hope… CNN’s iReport was overwhelmed… Twitter exploded…
(02:25:18 AM) Manning: people who saw, knew there was something wrong
(02:26:10 AM) Manning: Washington Post sat on the video… David Finkel acquired a copy while embedded out here
(02:26:36 AM) Manning: [also reason as to why there's probably no investigation]
(02:28:10 AM) Manning: i want people to see the truth… regardless of who they are… because without information, you cannot make informed decisions as a public
(02:28:10 AM) Lamo : I’m not here right now
(02:28:50 AM) Manning: if i knew then, what i knew now… kind of thing…
(02:29:31 AM) Manning: or maybe im just young, naive, and stupid…
(02:30:09 AM) Lamo: which do you think it is?
(02:30:29 AM) Manning: im hoping for the former
(02:30:53 AM) Manning: it cant be the latter
(02:31:06 AM) Manning: because if it is… were fucking screwed
(02:31:12 AM) Manning: (as a society)
(02:31:49 AM) Manning: and i dont want to believe that we’re screwed

[charrob]

He says exactly why he did it here..

http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2010/06/wikileaks-chat/

here's some more:


He described how his job gave him access to two secret networks: the Secret Internet Protocol Router Network, SIPRNET, which carries US diplomatic and military intelligence classified "secret"; and the Joint Worldwide Intelligence Communications System which uses a different security system to carry similar material classified up to "top secret".

He said this had allowed him to see "incredible things, awful things … that belong in the public domain and not on some server stored in a dark room in Washington DC … almost criminal political backdealings … the non-PR version of world events and crises."

Bradass87 suggested that "someone I know intimately" had been downloading and compressing and encrypting all this data and uploading it to someone he identified as Julian Assange. At times, he claimed he himself had leaked the material, suggesting that he had taken in blank CDs, labelled as Lady Gaga's music, slotted them into his high-security laptop and lip-synched to nonexistent music to cover his downloading: "i want people to see the truth," he said.

He dwelled on the abundance of the disclosure: "its open diplomacy … its Climategate with a global scope and breathtaking depth … its beautiful and horrifying … It's public data, it belongs in the public domain."

[Anti Federalist]

how will we ever get through to these people?

one thing that might lighten them up a bit would be to post the video where the helicopter soldiers kill the kid and journalist in the van.

(((raspberries)))

They'd cheer and order a pizza.

:mad:

[Vessol]

NeoCons don't like it when their plans are shown for what they are.


(((raspberries)))

They'd cheer and order a pizza.

:mad:

No kidding. I tried showing that video to a friend of mine whom is apolitical on all issues except whom is 100% for our foreign policy because her brothers are all in the military or something like that. I showed her the main part where the children were fired upon, thinking it would phase her because she is a mother. She just shrugged it off and saw no problem with it. I asked her if she would be upset if a helicopter fired on her van while her kids were in it. She said that vaguely, her kids are "different" and that the soldiers were just doing their job and their job is not to ask questions.

[t0rnado]

Bradley Manning is a hero. He should be given praise for what he did not disdain.

[Anti Federalist]

No kidding. I tried showing that video to a friend of mine whom is apolitical on all issues except whom is 100% for our foreign policy because her brothers are all in the military or something like that. I showed her the main part where the children were fired upon, thinking it would phase her because she is a mother. She just shrugged it off and saw no problem with it. I asked her if she would be upset if a helicopter fired on her van while her kids were in it. She said that vaguely, her kids are "different" and that the soldiers were just doing their job and their job is not to ask questions.


Speechless...*sigh*

Dammit, I'm in high state of piss off today to begin with.

That did not help.

"Not my tribe, race, religion, kin, countrymen, so, kill 'em".

Did you press her past that point?

[Vessol]

Speechless...*sigh*

Dammit, I'm in high state of piss off today to begin with.

That did not help.

"Not my tribe, race, religion, kin, countrymen, so, kill 'em".

Did you press her past that point?

I tried going into a more religious talk, as she is very fundamentalist. I talked about how Jesus did not believe that violence was the answer to any problem and that you must pray for the safety of your enemies as well as your friends.
That didn't seem to work. I can't really remember any part in the Bible that speaks that "And if they bomb the brown kids, ye shall not weep.

[libertybrewcity]

You know,,The documents are available.
And this has been asked several times and in several threads.
WHAT NAMES ?

So far all I have seen is the name of someone who was dead 2 years before the release of these documents.

If you make the claim that names are released , Post Proof.

else STFU

Here are two names in one document:

http://wardiary.wikileaks.org/afg/event/2008/04/AFG20080411n1259.html

Here is a Chief of Police informant:
http://wardiary.wikileaks.org/afg/event/2007/01/AFG20070109n568.html

[farrar]

Here are two names in one document:

http://wardiary.wikileaks.org/afg/event/2008/04/AFG20080411n1259.html (http://wardiary.wikileaks.org/afg/event/2008/04/AFG20080411n1259.html)

Here is a Chief of Police informant:
http://wardiary.wikileaks.org/afg/event/2007/01/AFG20070109n568.html (http://wardiary.wikileaks.org/afg/event/2007/01/AFG20070109n568.html)

That is sort of true. The first document says the name of a dead man, and the name of an arrested man. The issue involved two Afgan's who were involved in a friendly fire incident. So there are names... but it is hardly a security risk.

The second document didn't have names, but it did disclose the title of the Chief of Police informant in 2007. I'd question whether or not that is truely a secret. why would a police chief report he's kidnapped man as missing? I am sure locals and the taliban are fully aware of the police and their nature of being in bed with the US and Nato forces. He is in more danger for being the cheif of police than he is for being mentioned in that document. In any case it doesn't affect our security at all, and probably not his either, if he is still alive to begin with.

But it does revive the issue of wether all the names were redacted, or if these examples were not precieved to need it. And if they were not precieved to need it, who decides what is and isn't a security risk at wikileaks? Quite possibly whoever makes that call could be toying with the fate of others. I rather doubt it myself though. I suppose time and a little more research will tell us for sure though.

[Anti Federalist]

I tried going into a more religious talk, as she is very fundamentalist. I talked about how Jesus did not believe that violence was the answer to any problem and that you must pray for the safety of your enemies as well as your friends.
That didn't seem to work. I can't really remember any part in the Bible that speaks that "And if they bomb the brown kids, ye shall not weep.

*sigh* - again.

Who are these people? (for the record I consider myself a religious Christian)

Nothing new though, I suppose, I recall some of the old Brady photographs of people that had come to picnic while watching the battle of Bull Run.

[LibForestPaul]

Posting the names of the informants was classless. I oppose the war, but I have no love for Bradley Manning. He did it because he was angry at the army, not because he thought it was the right thing to do.

Tough sh!t, Traitors need to be shot. Just like the Vichy.

[ChaosControl]

Sometimes it's hard to have hope for the future of this country... :(

http://www.politicalforum.com/current-events/143419-wikileaks-editor-detained-us-customs-agents.html

http://www.usmessageboard.com/current-events/127161-wikileaks-editor-detained-by-us-customs-agents.html

That places scares me. I thought the other forum I post was bad with its neocons. These places make it seem libertarian.

[heavenlyboy34]

Posting the names of the informants was classless. I oppose the war, but I have no love for Bradley Manning. He did it because he was angry at the army, not because he thought it was the right thing to do.

He didn't post the informants' names, according to him. I haven't read the docs myself, so I can't verify.

[libertybrewcity]

He didn't post the informants' names, according to him. I haven't read the docs myself, so I can't verify.

I spent about 10 minutes going through the documents and found a few names. There are what, 90k documents? The names are there. Either he posted them or someone else did. However, I don't think this guy would go through thousands of documents and delete names only to have them replaced..

[farrar]

That places scares me. I thought the other forum I post was bad with its neocons. These places make it seem libertarian.

Haha, they can be at times. That forum has everything from a2a (Alturists to Anarcists). I think people get anoyed with me somtimes when I post there though. The general opinion there is realativly moderate and centrist, and if your the first "extremeist" to post, the moderates ignore you until the oposing faction comes, then they rape you like a baboon. Of course, if your an "extremist" oposing the first extreme post... Things go pretty sweet. Thats just a personal experience though. lol

[BlackTerrel]

Wow Americans weren't happy with documents that put Americans in danger? Shocking. :rolleyes:


The statist in me says to draft everyone who is Pro-War and send them over there if they are so gung-ho. We'll see how fast they change their minds.

There's a difference between being anti-war and actively rooting for America to lose. I'm in the former, a number of people here appear to be in the latter.

I hope that's a misperception. But a lot of people who are anti-war will still be opposed to documents that endanger Americans.

[Andrew-Austin]

Wow Americans weren't happy with documents that put Americans in danger? Shocking. :rolleyes:



There's a difference between being anti-war and actively rooting for America to lose. I'm in the former, a number of people here appear to be in the latter.

I hope that's a misperception. But a lot of people who are anti-war will still be opposed to documents that endanger Americans.

Those Americans kinda sorta agreed to be in dangers way when they signed up to go fight a fucked up occupation of a foreign land. And its hard to believe the leak is actually doing that (endangering them) and its not just media and Pentagon hype.

[libertybrewcity]

If the video of the van didn't do it, you could post the video of Julian Assange on Freedom Watch. He talks about the government covering up or changing certain events such as a 100 insurgents dying where it was really 50-something civilians as an example.
YouTube - Freedom Watch July 31st, 2010 - Part 1 of 5. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9NZbf0sPQWE)

[Anti Federalist]

There's a difference between being anti-war and actively rooting for America to lose. I'm in the former, a number of people here appear to be in the latter.

I hope that's a misperception. But a lot of people who are anti-war will still be opposed to documents that endanger Americans.

That's the standard Pentagon line whenever their corruption and malfeasance is exposed.

Taking it to it's logical end, no criticism would be allowed, since that contributes to flagging morale, which puts Americans at risk.

The DC war machine wants it both ways, they love the media when promoting the lies surrounding, for instance, the death of Pat Tillman, but want the media to shut up when it's exposing them.

[DrRP08]

Sometimes it's hard to have hope for the future of this country... :(

http://www.politicalforum.com/current-events/143419-wikileaks-editor-detained-us-customs-agents.html

http://www.usmessageboard.com/current-events/127161-wikileaks-editor-detained-by-us-customs-agents.html
I wanted to punch my computer monitor after reading some of those replies. :mad:

[Rothbardian Girl]

I wanted to punch my computer monitor after reading some of those replies. :mad:

I feel like trolling them, lol. It wouldn't be constructive, but yes, those people are real idiots.

[DamianTV]

That's okay. Eventually all of these little antiwar/antiamerican sissies are going to get rounded up and tried on charges of espionage. We'll see how noble they think they are then. If the FBI wants to question someone involved in the wikileaks incident they have every right to. Espionage is not okay to do, even if you agree with the political motivation behind it.

Wow! Even the very first post they call for Nazi level "make you just disappear in the middle of the night politics" and he calls that American! WTF?

Unfortunately I do think he is correct about the thought crime people like us being rounded up and sent away.

[Ricky201]

Wow! Even the very first post they call for Nazi level "make you just disappear in the middle of the night politics" and he calls that American! WTF?

Unfortunately I do think he is correct about the thought crime people like us being rounded up and sent away.

Ugh, people that make me depressed. I'm not being sarcastic either...how can people even begin to think that way...*looks at TV monitor*...oh right.

Fuck these so-called American's. I'm thinking about setting up camp in New Hampshire with some of my fellow crazies.

[Ricky201]

If the video of the van didn't do it, you could post the video of Julian Assange on Freedom Watch. He talks about the government covering up or changing certain events such as a 100 insurgents dying where it was really 50-something civilians as an example.
YouTube - Freedom Watch July 31st, 2010 - Part 1 of 5. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9NZbf0sPQWE)

Best first half of Freedom Watch I have seen yet. Simmons sure loves the double-speak when it comes to "terrorist".

[Pericles]

Wow Americans weren't happy with documents that put Americans in danger? Shocking. :rolleyes:



There's a difference between being anti-war and actively rooting for America to lose. I'm in the former, a number of people here appear to be in the latter.

I hope that's a misperception. But a lot of people who are anti-war will still be opposed to documents that endanger Americans.
This is an important point, else the domestic politics surrounding Vietnam will get replayed.

I suggest it would be in error to consider bad things happening to the military and its people as providing either incentive to wind down the engagement or justified "blowback" for engaging in a war best avoided.

That does not "wake up the sheep" - it only brings out the "bloody shirt" and people (especially relatives of military folks) will be even more intent on "victory" to make the loss "mean something".

Don't believe me? Look at the reaction Dr. Paul's comments on the WTC got. This also is a case of the fecklessness of libertarians, who can't restrain their emotions about advocating for their positions.

[Austrian Econ Disciple]

This is an important point, else the domestic politics surrounding Vietnam will get replayed.

I suggest it would be in error to consider bad things happening to the military and its people as providing either incentive to wind down the engagement or justified "blowback" for engaging in a war best avoided.

That does not "wake up the sheep" - it only brings out the "bloody shirt" and people (especially relatives of military folks) will be even more intent on "victory" to make the loss "mean something".

Don't believe me? Look at the reaction Dr. Paul's comments on the WTC got. This also is a case of the fecklessness of libertarians, who can't restrain their emotions about advocating for their positions.

Yes, a secret war, with little information revealed, is much better than actually letting everyone know the truth of the matter. Thou shall not let the serfs and peasants know of the acts their children are committing at the behest of the politicos, the utter insanity of their children being killed for a buck, and the corruption that runs so deep it makes the Marianas look like the Grand Canyon in comparison.

While I don't advocate for the complete lunacy of the "New Left" of the 1960s, I also am in full support of all protestations against this both morally and economically. I mean, I guess only Americans have the right to life, liberty, and property. Anyone else, well...they're just not human.

The sooner this ends, the better. Something tells me what we have been doing the past 8 years isn't exactly working to end these wars sooner. Perhaps letting the public know what is going on will be a step in the right direction. I am not rooting for America to lose. I am not rooting for America either way. I am "rooting" for these individuals to come home safe and sound and for the criminals in DC to be persecuted. I am rooting for the victory of Natural Rights & Natural Law. I don't respond to chest-beating Nationalism. That isn't who I am, or what I believe in.

[Pericles]

Yes, a secret war, with little information revealed, is much better than actually letting everyone know the truth of the matter. Thou shall not let the serfs and peasants know of the acts their children are committing at the behest of the politicos, the utter insanity of their children being killed for a buck, and the corruption that runs so deep it makes the Marianas look like the Grand Canyon in comparison.

While I don't advocate for the complete lunacy of the "New Left" of the 1960s, I also am in full support of all protestations against this both morally and economically. I mean, I guess only Americans have the right to life, liberty, and property. Anyone else, well...they're just not human.

The sooner this ends, the better. Something tells me what we have been doing the past 8 years isn't exactly working to end these wars sooner. Perhaps letting the public know what is going on will be a step in the right direction. I am not rooting for America to lose. I am not rooting for America either way. I am "rooting" for these individuals to come home safe and sound and for the criminals in DC to be persecuted. I am rooting for the victory of Natural Rights & Natural Law. I don't respond to chest-beating Nationalism. That isn't who I am, or what I believe in.

Thanks for illustrating my point via the verbage used in your post.

[Austrian Econ Disciple]

Thanks for illustrating my point via the verbage used in your post.

You are aware I am in the military right? I would advise not to stereotype everyone. I don't support people throwing paint on troops coming home, or any of that non-sense. I do support however, rigid debate, and protests like Kent State (I am just wondering if you support those people being killed?). Ultimately, though, the most likely scenario is that the troops will come home when our dollar is worthless. Something tells me this hurts the "troops" e.g. Americans, more than this ever will.

Do you support Wikileaks? Do you support disclosure of information? Do you believe in War is a Racket? What is the best means of advocacy and information sharing to educate and get our troops out of there as soon as possible?

[charrob]

is Lamo, Rat, on drugs? :confused:

YouTube - How open should gov. be with information? (30July10) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OH9pGZAV18c)

[pcosmar]

This controversy started with a statement I made, so I will weigh in again.
I think it was misunderstood,,but that is common.

It would be best if we had never been involved in this madness to start with. Had the Media been doing their job from the beginning, the lies would have long ago been exposed.

Now the focus is on either winning or losing the war.
THERE IS NO WINNING this war.

The war on terrorism is a war on a concept, not an enemy.
This war, like others, was based from the beginning on lies and manipulation. Now the TRUTH is the enemy.
I do not wish for the deaths of our soldiers, or for the deaths of people of other nations.

I wish it to end. For our troops to come home.
As long as there is some (false) hope of winning,, this will not happen.

The true enemy, are those that keep this shit going. That makes "our" troops agents of the enemy. Sad truth.
To perpetuate the lies makes one an enemy of truth.
If I become an enemy for stating Truth, so be it.

[Pericles]

You are aware I am in the military right? I would advise not to stereotype everyone. I don't support people throwing paint on troops coming home, or any of that non-sense. I do support however, rigid debate, and protests like Kent State (I am just wondering if you support those people being killed?). Ultimately, though, the most likely scenario is that the troops will come home when our dollar is worthless. Something tells me this hurts the "troops" e.g. Americans, more than this ever will.

Do you support Wikileaks? Do you support disclosure of information? Do you believe in War is a Racket? What is the best means of advocacy and information sharing to educate and get our troops out of there as soon as possible?

I'll wager I've got more time in than you do, and all of it is in a combat arms armor slot.

If you had read and remembered my comments in post 12 of this thread, you would know what my position is regarding the right of the citizens to know what the military is dong.