Joe Legal and Jose Illegal

[squarepusher]

Back by popular demand

JOE LEGAL vs. JOSE ILLEGAL
You have two families: "Joe Legal" and "Jose Illegal".
Both families have two parents, two children, and live in California .
Joe Legal works in construction, has a Social Security Number and makes
$25.00 per hour with taxes deducted.
Jose Illegal also works in construction, has NO Social Security Number,
And gets paid $15.00 cash "under the table".
Ready? Now pay attention....
Joe Legal: $25.00 per hour x 40 hours = $1000.00 per week, or $52,000.00
Per year. Now take 30% away for state and federal tax; Joe Legal now has
$31,231.00.
Jose Illegal: $15.00 per hour x 40 hours = $600.00 per week, or
$31,200.00 per year. Jose Illegal pays no taxes. Jose Illegal now has
$31,200.00.
Joe Legal pays medical and dental insurance with limited coverage for
His family at $600.00 per month, or $7,200.00 per year. Joe Legal now
Has $24,031.00.
Jose Illegal has full medical and dental coverage through the state and
Local clinics at a cost of $0.00 per year. Jose Illegal still has
$31,200.00.
Joe Legal makes too much money and is not eligible for food stamps or
Welfare. Joe Legal pays $500.00 per month for food, or $6,000.00 per
Year. Joe Legal now has $18,031.00.
Jose Illegal has no documented income and is eligible for food stamps
And welfare. Jose Illegal still has $31,200.00.
Joe Legal pays rent of $1,200.00 per month, or $14,400.00 per year. Joe
Legal now has $9,631.00.
Jose Illegal receives a $500.00 per month federal rent subsidy. Jose
Illegal pays out that $500.00 per month, or $6,000.00 per year. Jose
Illegal
Still has $ 31,200.00.
Joe Legal pays $200.00 per month, or $2,400.00 for insurance. Joe Legal
Now has $7,231.00.
Jose Illegal says, "We don't need no stinkin' insurance!" and still has
$31,200..00.
Joe Legal has to make his $7,231.00 stretch to pay utilities, gasoline,
Etc.
Jose Illegal has to make his $31,200.00 stretch to pay utilities,
Gasoline, and what he sends out of the country every month.
Joe Legal now works overtime on Saturdays or gets a part time job after
Work.
Jose Illegal has nights and weekends off to enjoy with his family.
Joe Legal's and Jose Illegal's children both attend the same school. Joe
Legal pays for his children's lunches while Jose Illegal's children get
A government sponsored lunch. Jose Illegal's children have an after
School ESL program. Joe Legal's children go home.
Joe Legal and Jose Illegal both enjoy the same police and fire services,
But Joe paid for them and Jose did not pay.
Jose with his free tax payer entitlements makes $65,000.00 a year!
Do you get it, now?

[Lord Xar]

love it.

[constituent]

This makes a great argument for getting fedgov out of the regulation/control of labor, as well as the need to end the income tax!

[MelissaWV]

Someone should consider making it into a graphic so it flows a bit more easily.

It also, if one pays close attention, shows precisely where the real problems are and how they should be addressed.

[brandon]

The person employing the "illegal" is saving probably about $25,000/year. They can use this money to hire additional workers, capital investment, etc. Basically much more productivity will be generated via the employers savings which will benefit society as a whole.

What now?

[AuH20]

The person employing the "illegal" is saving probably about $25,000/year. They can use this money to hire additional workers, capital investment, etc. Basically much more productivity will be generated via the employers savings which will benefit society as a whole.

What now?

I guess the circumvention of labor laws and the undercutting of health insurance requirements could be akin to savings. Just transfer the costs to the taxpayer. ;)

[MelissaWV]

The person employing the "illegal" is saving probably about $25,000/year. They can use this money to hire additional workers, capital investment, etc. Basically much more productivity will be generated via the employers savings which will benefit society as a whole.

What now?

Which is part of why the post is important, but not for the "anti-illegal" reasons that it was likely originally created for.

What it exposes, to me, are flaws in many of our systems... flaws that most on the board should already be aware of. Insurance? Public Schools? Income Tax? Weren't we discussing these problems before it became fashionable to tie them all in with illegal immigration?

[constituent]

Weren't we discussing these problems before it became fashionable to tie them all in with illegal immigration?

probably best to avoid the "we" word. ;) :)

[YumYum]

There is a clear message here.

It's obvious that Joe Legal should be doing what a lot of white "legal" Americans are currently doing, and have been doing since 1914: work under the table.

[ItsTime]

I love it. Put this on a blog so we can get it some traffic.

[Live_Free_Or_Die]

You left out the best part. Americans identify the problem as Jose Illegal not welfare.

Joe Legal will have to pay additional taxes for federal ID programs, e-verify bureaucracies, military to secure borders, more police to enforce alien discrimination laws, and the illusion of feeling more comfortable with less liberty.

[AuH20]

You left out the best part. Americans identify the problem as Jose Illegal not welfare.

Joe Legal will have to pay additional taxes for federal ID programs, e-verify bureaucracies, military to secure borders, more police to enforce alien discrimination laws, and the illusion of feeling more comfortable with less liberty.

The problem is actually Jose Ilegal, although no fault of his own. He's simply adapting to the cruel card he's been dealt and is more susceptible to statist exploitation. No one has a problem with 5 million Jose Illegals, but when totals escalate to 20, 25 million tied into a powerful special interest bloc, the delicate balancing act gets more complicated.

[Zippyjuan]

Just as there are illegals who get paid under the table in cash there are also citizens getting paid under the table. Illegals do often have social security numbers- even if they are fake- and that means that they are paying taxes. Social Security takes in billions every year which come from "unrecognized" social security numbers- these are an economic bonus for the government since the illegals are not elgible for social security or federal medicare/ medicaid. A legal citizen can do all of the things the OP says that an illegal citizen can do.

[constituent]

The problem is actually Jose Ilegal, although no fault of his own. He's simply adapting to the cruel card he's been dealt and is more susceptible to statist exploitation. No one has a problem with 5 million Jose Illegals, but when totals escalate to 20, 25 million tied into a powerful special interest bloc, the delicate balancing act gets more complicated.

Seriously, 25 million? What's that 1 in 12 people in the United States is a "Jose Illegal?"

You have to realize how absurd that is, right?

[AuH20]

Seriously, 25 million? What's that 1 in 12 people in the United States is a "Jose Illegal?"

You have to realize how absurd that is, right?

I don't buy the official numbers. In 2006, the U.S. Border Patrol estimated there is 12 to 15 million, after they had originally stated that 4 to 5 million cross the border each year.

[Lord Xar]

You left out the best part. Americans identify the problem as Jose Illegal not welfare.

Joe Legal will have to pay additional taxes for federal ID programs, e-verify bureaucracies, military to secure borders, more police to enforce alien discrimination laws, and the illusion of feeling more comfortable with less liberty.

Well, when you start advocating an end to the welfare state with such exuberance as you lobby for open borders, then perhaps - many of us will see your tactic for restoring liberty. But as it stands, your open border advocacy just creates the very thing you think people don't realize -- subsidization/welfare/bigger government/globalism.

A nation without borders is no nation at all. After decades of misguided policies America has now become a free-for-all. Our leaders betrayed the middle class which is forced to compete with welfare-receiving illegal immigrants who will work for almost anything, just because the standards in their home countries are even lower.

If these policies are not reversed, the future is grim. A poor, dependent and divided population is much easier to rule than a nation of self-confident individuals who can make a living on their own and who share the traditions and values that this country was founded upon.

By Ron Paul -

1. Physically secure our borders and coastlines. We must do whatever it takes to control entry into our country before we undertake complicated immigration reform proposals.
2. Enforce visa rules. Immigration officials must track visa holders and deport anyone who overstays their visa or otherwise violates U.S. law. This is especially important when we recall that a number of 9/11 terrorists had expired visas.
3. No amnesty. Estimates suggest that 10 to 20 million people are in our country illegally. That’s a lot of people to reward for breaking our laws.
4. No welfare for illegal aliens. Americans have welcomed immigrants who seek opportunity, work hard, and play by the rules. But taxpayers should not pay for illegal immigrants who use hospitals, clinics, schools, roads, and social services.
5. End birthright citizenship. As long as illegal immigrants know their children born here will be citizens, the incentive to enter the U.S. illegally will remain strong.
6. Pass true immigration reform. The current system is incoherent and unfair. But current reform proposals would allow up to 60 million more immigrants into our country, according to the Heritage Foundation. This is insanity. Legal immigrants from all countries should face the same rules and waiting periods.

[constituent]

I don't buy the official numbers. In 2006, the U.S. Border Patrol estimated there is 12 to 15 million, after they had originally stated that 4 to 5 million cross the border each year.

I don't buy the official numbers either.

If anyone has motivation to exaggerate the numbers it's a government bureaucrat justifying his job.

1 in every 45-50 people, maybe. 1 in 10-12 is patently absurd.

[Lord Xar]

I don't buy the official numbers either.

If anyone has motivation to exaggerate the numbers it's a government bureaucrat justifying his job.

1 in every 45-50 people, maybe. 1 in 10-12 is patently absurd.

Absolutely not. It is the govts best interest to downplay the numbers as to not create fear & panic among the natives. Also, amnesty is a MUCH easier pill to swallow when one is arguing for it for 10million rather than 20million, wouldn't you say?

The numbers, imho, are much larger than the government is reporting.

You are wrong here.

[constituent]

You left out the best part. Americans identify the problem as Jose Illegal not welfare.

Joe Legal will have to pay additional taxes for federal ID programs, e-verify bureaucracies, military to secure borders, more police to enforce alien discrimination laws, and the illusion of feeling more comfortable with less liberty.

but but but, THE ENDS JUSTIFY THE MEANS!!!!!!!!

[constituent]

Absolutely not. It is the govts best interest to downplay the numbers as to not create fear & panic among the natives.

Uhhh... no.

My position has not changed. If anyone has motivation to exaggerate the numbers it's a government bureaucrat justifying his job.




Also, amnesty is a MUCH easier pill to swallow when one is arguing for it for 10million rather than 20million, wouldn't you say?

No. Support for amnesty exists on philosophical or constitutional grounds. The numbers are irrelevant.



The numbers, imho, are much larger than the government is reporting.

So what by your estimation, 1 in 10? 1 in 15?



You are wrong here.

In regards to what, exactly? The numbers?

Your guess is no better than mine.

Except that I'm not really invested in ratcheting up the fear...

[Zippyjuan]

Recent estimates were 10.6 million- down from 12.6 over the previous two years- decreasing by a milliion a year.
http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/02/09/unauthorized-immigrant-population-declines/

February 9, 2010, 4:19 pm
Unauthorized Immigrant Population Declines
By CATHERINE RAMPELL
The population of unauthorized workers in the United States declined in the year ending January 2009, according to a new report from the Department of Homeland Security.


An estimated 10.8 million unauthorized immigrants were in the country in January 2009 compared with 11.6 million the previous year.

That decrease — nearly 7 percent — is probably related to the country’s declining economy in the first year of the recession. Other scholars have found a correlation between arrests at the Mexican border and labor market in the United States.

Of the 10.8 million unauthorized immigrants living in the United States in 2009, about 37 percent are believed to have entered the country in the last decade. Forty-four percent entered the United States during the 1990s and 19 percent during the 1980s.

The report had some other interesting numbers about the demographics of unauthorized immigrants.

Most of the immigrants were born in the Americas, including Canada, Mexico, the Caribbean and Central America.


People born in Mexico represented 62 percent of unauthorized immigrants in 2009, versus 55 percent in 2000. In a distant second was El Salvador, whose native-born represented about 5 percent of unauthorized immigrant living in the United States in both 2009 and 2000.

Among unauthorized immigrants, men outnumbered women in every age group except those 55 and older:


As you can see, the bulk of unauthorized immigrants were in their mid-20s to mid-40s, among the prime working years.

A couple charts at the link.

[constituent]

7% decrease year over year, eh zippyjuan?

sounds like an invasion to me.

[YumYum]

1 in every 45-50 people, maybe. 1 in 10-12 is patently absurd.

No it's not. I believe there are 30 million illegals in this country. Some estimates are at 40 million.

There are more illegal aliens than white people that live in my County.

[AuH20]

No it's not. I believe there are 30 million illegals in this country. Some estimates are at 40 million.

There are more illegal aliens than white people that live in my County.

I believe it closer to 20 to 25 just based off the annual crossings minus apprehension. About 3 million cross successfully each year.

[constituent]

Well guys, we have a solid source already posted that says 10 and change. Any of you care to offer one up supporting your numbers?

[Lord Xar]

...

[Lord Xar]

Well guys, we have a solid source already posted that says 10 and change. Any of you care to offer one up supporting your numbers?

A Department of Homeland Security report posted at the NY Times is a valid source?

< shakes head / >

[constituent]

A solid source. Hell, any source for that matter. Something other than, "well, I've got this floating around in my head."

What's your source?

[Zippyjuan]

The number of border crossings does not necessarily mean that all those people are staying in the country. Those here also do not stay here forever (yes, some do- others come, make money for a few years and go home). The Border Patrol has been reporting reduced numbers of people getting caught trying to cross. In 2009 people caught was down by 25%. http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=113035382

September 21, 2009 The number of people apprehended illegally crossing the U.S.-Mexico border is down more than 25 percent, according to Customs and Border Patrol, but the rate of people dying while trying to cross is up.

No one knows whether the decrease in crossers is due to the recession keeping people home, the thousands of new border patrol agents or the more than 600 miles of new border fence that has been built. But what is clear is that over the past decade, easier places to cross have been closed, so people are being pushed into isolated areas.


Legal border crossings are also down:
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2010/jul/11/number-of-border-crossings-stabilizes/

By Sandra Dibble, UNION-TRIBUNE STAFF WRITER

Sunday, July 11, 2010 at 9:54 p.m.

The number of people crossing the border at the San Ysidro Port of Entry -- seen here in 2009 -- had dipped sharply in the past few years, from a peak in 2003 of 47.4 million to 30.3 million in the most recent fiscal year.
The number of border crossings between San Diego and Tijuana has largely held steady in recent months after three years of steep decline — and has even increased in some categories — prompting hopes that the binational economy in that region is rebounding.





YumYum-There are more illegal aliens than white people that live in my County.

How do you know they are all illegal? Because they aren't white?

[Live_Free_Or_Die]

Well, when you start advocating an end to the welfare state with such exuberance as you lobby for open borders, then perhaps - many of us will see your tactic for restoring liberty. But as it stands, your open border advocacy just creates the very thing you think people don't realize -- subsidization/welfare/bigger government/globalism.

A nation without borders is no nation at all. After decades of misguided policies America has now become a free-for-all. Our leaders betrayed the middle class which is forced to compete with welfare-receiving illegal immigrants who will work for almost anything, just because the standards in their home countries are even lower.

If these policies are not reversed, the future is grim. A poor, dependent and divided population is much easier to rule than a nation of self-confident individuals who can make a living on their own and who share the traditions and values that this country was founded upon.

By Ron Paul -

1. Physically secure our borders and coastlines. We must do whatever it takes to control entry into our country before we undertake complicated immigration reform proposals.
2. Enforce visa rules. Immigration officials must track visa holders and deport anyone who overstays their visa or otherwise violates U.S. law. This is especially important when we recall that a number of 9/11 terrorists had expired visas.
3. No amnesty. Estimates suggest that 10 to 20 million people are in our country illegally. That’s a lot of people to reward for breaking our laws.
4. No welfare for illegal aliens. Americans have welcomed immigrants who seek opportunity, work hard, and play by the rules. But taxpayers should not pay for illegal immigrants who use hospitals, clinics, schools, roads, and social services.
5. End birthright citizenship. As long as illegal immigrants know their children born here will be citizens, the incentive to enter the U.S. illegally will remain strong.
6. Pass true immigration reform. The current system is incoherent and unfair. But current reform proposals would allow up to 60 million more immigrants into our country, according to the Heritage Foundation. This is insanity. Legal immigrants from all countries should face the same rules and waiting periods.

How much statism do I need to advocate in order to demonstrate I support Arizona's right to self govern? Were raising a state militia to secure state borders, Alien Land Acts, trespassing at state borders uninvited alien tourists or visitors not under contractual obligations with Arizona citizens, interposition against federal taxation, nullification of federal welfare, etc. not enough?

Is it too much to ask for you to observe the Constitution and not infringe on Constitutional guarantees for the privileges and immunities of citizens among the several states? Is it too much to ask for you to observe the Constitution and not infringe on 5th Amendment Constitutional guarantees and compelling citizens to risk witnessing against themselves should they visit Arizona? Is it too much to ask for you to obey the Constitution and seek a Constitutional amendment creating a national border if you want me to pay for the negligence of Arizona with regards to tourists and visitors?

[Southron]

Nice OP!

I agree there are probably at least 20 million here.

[w2992]

Jose is a patriot and Joe the taxpayer is an immoral murderer.

[brandon]

Jose is a patriot and Joe the taxpayer is an immoral murderer.

That's what I was thinking. Joe is funding my oppression.

[MelissaWV]

probably best to avoid the "we" word. ;) :)

"We," in context, refers to board members. This place has discussed these issues for quite some time. This new fad of tying it all to illegals is just a nice way to peel some folks away from their initial goals, and set them busily on the path towards worrying about how brown their neighbors are and what language they speak.

* * *

After this, there were two pages of people debating how many illegals there are. This, to me, is also part of the problem. I want to ask a very serious question: why's it matter?

One of the answers is "amnesty!" and it's a very valid one. Amnesty would probably create a sense of obligation. Amnesty would paint one party as saviors, after all, and whatever President is in charge at the time will be able to count on a likely majority of those to whom Amnesty was granted as supporters. There would also be those whose parents would have wanted Amnesty, and Amnesty supporters who were already legal, who would jump on that bandwagon. This seems, then, a case for counting up how many illegals there are, so we know what we're up against when Amnesty passes. Rather than doing that, I suggest fighting "Amnesty" programs in general. Most of them (read the fine print) do what we've come to expect from most Government programs.

One of the other answers is that "they're a drain on welfare!" and this is a silly one. If there are so many illegals on welfare, there should be a pretty good count. No? Why do you figure that is? Aren't we verifying the citizenship of people who apply for Government services? What documents are being used for it? I think you'll find the root of the problem right there. It's the same with Government schools and other Government services.

Another answer might be the cultural one, which I still find ridiculous on its face, so I won't get into arguing about it.

The fact you can't come up with a number means you are lunging at shadows. Figure out where, precisely, the illegals are causing a problem... and fix the loopholes. They are agonizingly simple to fix. Allow those who do not want illegals to cross their property to patrol that property and deal with trespassers within the law. It shouldn't matter where the trespasser originates.

* * *

You might be angry that Jose Illegal's children go to schools funded by taxpayer money, but remember that it's also a problem when Jane Citizen, who is childless, has to fund Joe Legal's kids' education. You might be really pissed off that Jose Illegal isn't paying his taxes, but remember that Wanda Welfare doesn't necessarily pay into a system she's getting money out of, nor do her children which garner her additional money. It might bring you to fuming to think that Jose Illegal doesn't carry insurance, but recall that most of the board is fighting tooth and nail to not be required by law to have insurance (and be told what kind to have). Your blood boils at the idea that Jose Illegal gets $500/month in rent subsidies according to the OP, but do you wonder why Joe Legal doesn't choose to live in the same $500/month apartment complex? (Tangent: I'm aware that the apartment doesn't really rent at $500/month, but you are kidding yourself if you believe they both live in the same complex.) The depiction of both guys having kids attend the same school is infuriating, but why do we have to fund these public schools at all? Why would you WANT your child to have a State-sponsored breakfast/lunch (which is disgusting) rather than a healthy meal? Why would you WANT your kid to be at an "after-school program"? Why is the central and first point the article makes, basically, that Jose doesn't have a SS#?

The problems are far more than the fact Jose is illegal. You can go line by line and see that for yourself, or you can join the mob and go "YEAH! GO BACK WHERE YOU CAME FROM!" and fix nothing (except to temporarily shrink the overall pricetag... but it'll be back).

[constituent]

There are more illegal aliens than white people that live in my County.

You're bad... :D

[constituent]

Jose is a patriot and Joe the taxpayer is an immoral murderer.


That's what I was thinking. Joe is funding my oppression.

For real. One guy gets it, the other doesn't.

That's about all I can make out of the OP.

As a kid, the teachers always told me, "kid, just play the game, you don't always have to struggle against it."

Jose plays the game. Joe struggles against it.