France orders illegal Roma immigrants expelled: Sounds like the US..

[phill4paul]

Sound familiar? Read between the lines. Either the AP is working the same script or "illegal" immigrants are scapegoated in every nation as a means to take attention away from the inefficiencies of big government and divert public anger.


SAINT OUEN, France – French President Nicolas Sarkozy on Wednesday ordered authorities to expel Gypsy illegal immigrants and dismantle their camps, amid accusations that his government is acting racist in its treatment of the group known as Roma.

Sarkozy called a government meeting Wednesday after Gypsies clashed with police this month following the shooting death of a youth fleeing officers in the Loire Valley.

Sarkozy said those responsible for the clashes would be "severely punished" and ordered the government to expel all illegal Roma immigrants, almost all of whom have come from eastern Europe.

He pushed for a change in France's immigration law to make such expulsion easier "for reasons of public order." He said illegal Gypsy camps "will be systematically evacuated," calling them sources of trafficking, exploitation of children and prostitution.

The language has chilling undertones in a country where authorities rounded up Gypsies and sent them to concentration camps during the Nazi occupation in World War II. Former President Jacques Chirac, the first French leader to acknowledge the state's role in the Holocaust, condemned "the Nazi madness that wanted to eliminate the Gypsies."

Around Europe, some 250,000 to 1.5 million Roma were killed during World War II. Accurate figures are difficult to find, because so many Roma were rounded up away from public view, executed and dumped into mass graves.

French Roma representatives were not invited to Wednesday's presidential meeting, and said they are the only ethnic group that French authorities can openly target.

Interior Minister Brice Hortefeux insisted that Wednesday's measures "are not meant to stigmatize any community, regardless of who they are, but at to punish illegal behavior."

Romania and Bulgaria are members of the European Union, and their citizens can enter France without a visa, but they must get work permits to work here or residency permits to settle long term. (So pretty much America. P4P)

Community leaders contend the very principle of the meeting — which singled out an ethnic group in a country that is officially blind to ethnic origins — is racist and warn of grave consequences if their side isn't heard. France's government does not count how many of its citizens are of a certain ethnicity; everyone is simply considered French. ( La Raza? P4P)

"Today ... I am afraid we're preparing to open a blighted page in the history of France, which could sadly lead to acts of reprisal in the days ahead," said lawyer Henri Braun said at a Wednesday news conference by French Roma leaders. "There is a huge problem of racism in France towards this population, there is enormous discrimination."

France's relationship with what it calls Gypsies is complex and complicated by divisions among the disparate populations.

One, formally given the administrative label of "traveling folk," includes several hundred thousand French citizens who have lived in France for centuries, and were traditionally nomadic but have become increasingly sedentary in recent years. (Pretty accurate with regards to US P4P)

The other main Gypsy population is made up of recent immigrants who come mostly from Eastern European countries like Romania and Bulgaria, usually illegally, and are often seen begging on the streets of French cities.

Those in the more established communities say they are being unfairly lumped together with illegal new immigrants. Sarkozy's orders Wednesday targeted Roma, though the violence in Saint-Aignan earlier this month was in a community of traveling folk established in the region for years. (Much like Americas entrenched hipanic community. P4P)

Alice Januel, whose organization represents Catholics among French Gypsies, warned that "If Mr. Sarkozy thinks that by clamping down he is going to calm the youth, I don't think that he will succeed. We have a youth that is rebellious."

Sarkozy also proposed that France bring in about 20 Romanian and Bulgarian police to work in the Paris region and send French police to Romania and Bulgaria, to help fight trafficking and other crime by Roma.(Of course linked to crime, prostitution and drugs. P4P)

It would be so easy to interject the term "illegal immigrant" or "undocumented worker" into this article.

Just something to think about as we move to the New World Order.

[johngr]

It's a start.

http://video.rutube.ru/31e8bf904206a8bb9b789f6a4c6ebf8f

[phill4paul]

///

[Paleo]

Attention Illegal immigrants, GTFO!

[stu2002]

Attention Illegal immigrants, GTFO!

Seriously.

Libertarians SUCK on the immigration issue. Thank God that Ron Paul guy AIN'T a Libertarian

[Live_Free_Or_Die]

Seriously.

Libertarians SUCK on the immigration issue. Thank God that Ron Paul guy AIN'T a Libertarian

Thank goodness for those consistent libertarians who are real Champions of the Constitution that don't flip flop on immigration when it's politically convenient.

[Paleo]

Seriously.

Libertarians SUCK on the immigration issue. Thank God that Ron Paul guy AIN'T a Libertarian

Big L libertarians do suck on the immigration issue. Pure Ancap-ism is no more reasonable or rational than socialist anarchism.

without a defineable national identity and culture that embraces individual liberty for OURSELVES, and protects it zealously from all comers, we are dead before we even start.

RP isn't infallible.

[bobbyw24]

Big L libertarians do suck on the immigration issue. Pure Ancap-ism is no more reasonable or rational than socialist anarchism.

without a defineable national identity and culture that embraces individual liberty for OURSELVES, and protects it zealously from all comers, we are dead before we even start.

RP isn't infallible.

Damn--you nailed that one Paleo

[JustinTime]

Big L libertarians do suck on the immigration issue. Pure Ancap-ism is no more reasonable or rational than socialist anarchism.

without a defineable national identity and culture that embraces individual liberty for OURSELVES, and protects it zealously from all comers, we are dead before we even start.

Yup yup.

[constituent]

without a defineable national identity and culture

A national identity and culture. Whatever you say Mussolini.

[Live_Free_Or_Die]

without a defineable national identity and culture that embraces individual liberty for OURSELVES, and protects it zealously from all comers, we are dead before we even start.

RP isn't infallible.

We used to have a national identity and it used to be a system of constitutional federalism, but nobody believes in that anymore. Since people don't believe in it or fully advocate it anymore people have moved beyond it and started focusing on how an ideal liberty society should work. Hence voluntaryism. That is all the constitutional system of federalism was supposed to be, an ideal liberty society, but the failures of limited government are catastrophic with an appalling record of not protecting individual liberty or life.

We used to have the people dictating to their respective several states what they could not do, the states largely running the show, and a federal home owner association handling a couple delegated items of common interest among the several states.

The national identity was never about geography it was about liberty and limited government but those traditions are long gone and now the country is extremely polarized over controlling the guns of government. It appears one side is going to try to carve out a national identity based on geography instead of liberty in the 21st century. I am not rooting for them. Not only do they contradict the constitution there is no benefit restricting the flow of people or goods.

When goods do not cross borders, soldiers will. -Bastiat

[Paleo]

We used to have a national identity and it used to be a system of constitutional federalism, but nobody believes in that anymore. Since people don't believe in it or fully advocate it anymore people have moved beyond it and started focusing on how an ideal liberty society should work. Hence voluntaryism. That is all the constitutional system of federalism was supposed to be, an ideal liberty society, but the failures of limited government are catastrophic with an appalling record of not protecting individual liberty or life.

We used to have the people dictating to their respective several states what they could not do, the states largely running the show, and a federal home owner association handling a couple delegated items of common interest among the several states.

The national identity was never about geography it was about liberty and limited government but those traditions are long gone and now the country is extremely polarized over controlling the guns of government. It appears one side is going to try to carve out a national identity based on geography instead of liberty in the 21st century. I am not rooting for them. Not only do they contradict the constitution there is no benefit restricting the flow of people or goods.

When goods do not cross borders, soldiers will. -Bastiat


Federalism is imperfect, but it got us this far, farther than ANY system of organization has ever pushed individual liberty. It is the AK47 of political philosophies, and needs tinkering, not scrapping.

Voluntarism is simply a theory, and a bad one at that. It is just one more utopian vision on the scrap heap of history.

Wasting energy debating the ideal libertine society is the entire reason that Ancapism will never work. Lets focus on what does.

One thing Federalism requires is a citizenry that understands the benefits of it. That end is not served by allowing ourselves to be overrun by 20-30M people who worship Emilio Zapata. We are going to have enough of a challenge combating 100 years of progressivism without that additional burden.

[Live_Free_Or_Die]

Federalism is imperfect, but it got us this far, farther than ANY system of organization has ever pushed individual liberty. It is the AK47 of political philosophies, and needs tinkering, not scrapping.

Voluntarism is simply a theory, and a bad one at that. It is just one more utopian vision on the scrap heap of history.

Wasting energy debating the ideal libertine society is the entire reason that Ancapism will never work. Lets focus on what does.

One thing Federalism requires is a citizenry that understands the benefits of it. That end is not served by allowing ourselves to be overrun by 20-30M people who worship Emilio Zapata. We are going to have enough of a challenge combating 100 years of progressivism without that additional burden.

When people go to AA the first thing they admit is their own failure. Until the failure is acknowledged and reconciled there can be no healing.

The economy is propped up with impossible math. I have no illusions about this system as we know it is coming to an end. I have no illusions the country is polarized. I have no illusions people can bitch all they want about spending but one half of the country wants war and the other half of the country wants welfare. I have no illusions Ron Paul's polling growth is not anything to shout about. I have no illusions the Campaign for Liberty's membership numbers leveling out at 450k is not all that exciting. I have no illusions Medina and Kokesh lost.

Even listening to the million dollar money bomb broadcast right now they are talking about the education genie. Are there millions of zombies walking around the several states holding "I am stupid, please educate me" signs?

Let's see how well the money bomb does today in a concentrated liberty advocate show of strength to support a liberty candidate.

[constituent]

FThat end is not served by allowing ourselves to be overrun by 20-30M people who worship Emilio Zapata.

The b.s. collectivist aspect aside, are you really one of those dopes pushing the line that 1 in every 10 to 15 people
presently in the United States of America is an "illegal Mexican?"

Really? lol.

So let's see

1) Pumping some non-existent, homogeneous "national culture"

2) All Mexicans are Marxists

3) 1 in 10 people in the country is an "illegal mexican"

Check, check and check

You noobs make this too easy. :)

[constituent]

Even listening to the million dollar money bomb broadcast right now they are talking about the education genie. Are there millions of zombies walking around the several states holding "I am stupid, please educate me" signs?

Which of course is hilarious considering the "movement" wide (freedomworks/santelli rant/rep. hack-driven) attempt to banish the educators over the course of the last year or so.

The volunteer (to make my money), donate (to me) or f* off (you're not a real patriot/conservative/repug/whatev) attitude did this sucker in.

Best we can hope for at this point is that the slumbering minds begin to realize that all the open wallets in the world mean nothing if the figureheads don't know what liberty actually is or what the constitution actually says (and doesn't say)... but we'll see.

[Paleo]

The b.s. collectivist aspect aside, are you really one of those dopes pushing the line that 1 in every 10 to 15 people is an "illegal Mexican?"

Really? lol.

So let's see

1) Pumping some non-existent, homogeneous "national culture"

2) All Mexicans are Marxists

3) 1 in 10 people in the country is an "illegal mexican"

Check, check and check

You noobs make this too easy. :)

Apparently you've been living under a rock.

[constituent]

Says the guy who just showed up... you are what you are.

BTW, what was your previous i.d.?

[Paleo]

Says the guy who just showed up... you are what you are.

BTW, what was your previous i.d.?

Lets just say that I didn't just show up.

[constituent]

Lets just say that I didn't just show up.

Uh-huh, so what was your previous id?

Or for that matter, your other ids?

When they ban you again this time, you going to keep coming back under new names?

What do you have against private property?

[Paleo]

Uh-huh, so what was your previous id?

Or for that matter, your other ids?

When they ban you again this time, you going to keep coming back under new names?

What do you have against private property?

Why do you hate America?

[constituent]

Why do you hate America?

Hey, you're the one who wants to dismiss the constitution.

And I'll answer your question once you've answered mine. ;)

[Paleo]

Hey, you're the one who wants to dismiss the constitution.

And I'll answer your question once you've answered mine. ;)

Im not dismissing the Constitution. In fact, its clear that controlling immigration is one of the functions of it. I would certainly amend it to get rid of that anchor baby shit though.

The question is what happens when the Federal government purposesly refuses to do it's job, and instead chooses to do what it is NOT empowered to do... Should the states then just refuse to act in the best interest of their own citizens?

The truth is that I have had so many SNs that I dont even know... and I was only temp banned once for telling a mod off. You are making me remember why I keep leaving though...

I swear you freaking ancaps are the bane of the liberty movement.

[Stary Hickory]

How a about we defend are borders and protect the rights of the citizens. Illegal immigrations is illegal just like someone setting up shop in your house is illegal.

There is no difference especially when illegals can pick the pockets of anyone of us using the coerced welfare state.

Anyone who calls this racist is an intellectual moron really...

[Live_Free_Or_Die]

I swear you freaking ancaps are the bane of the liberty movement.

An/Caps are the balls. The bane of the liberty movement is afraid to j-walk

[t0rnado]

Big L libertarians do suck on the immigration issue. Pure Ancap-ism is no more reasonable or rational than socialist anarchism.

without a defineable national identity and culture that embraces individual liberty for OURSELVES, and protects it zealously from all comers, we are dead before we even start.

RP isn't infallible.

No, there is no national culture. Cultures vary based on the people in an area. New England will always have a different culture than the Bible Belt. If you think you can force your cultural bullshit down the throats of everyone else, you're a statist tool.

Paleoconservativism is no more reasonable than neoconservatism. It's the same fascist crap.

[AuH20]

Thank goodness for those consistent libertarians who are real Champions of the Constitution that don't flip flop on immigration when it's politically convenient.

Madison and Jefferson would run the other way if they ran into you guys. :D

[Adolfo Mena Gonzalez]

Thank goodness for those consistent libertarians who are real Champions of the Constitution that don't flip flop on immigration when it's politically convenient.
More like consistently suicidal. That is why I don't consider myself a libertarian. Libertarians are not pragmatic and are not consequentialists. They are ideologically rigid to their own detriment and are willing to sacrifice their desired ends in order to prove their ideological "purity" in the short term. Massive Long Term Third World Immigration will just enlarge the welfare state, and third worlders disproportionately vote for welfarist candidates and pro-establishment candidates. They are being imported solely for cheap labor and for the votes, while in the mean time Americans are being driven to unemployment and the welfare rolls, only making or fiscal and economic problems worse.

[Agorism]

Ron Paul has never been strict on enforcement.

[Adolfo Mena Gonzalez]

Ron Paul has never been strict on enforcement.

Than Ron Paul is wrong if that is the case. I have never heard Ron Paul oppose ICE though.

[Kludge]

Make all the laws you want. Nobody gives a fuck. Libertarians, conservatives, liberals... -- almost everyone active in politics never seems to realize this.

You can't stop illegal immigration, just burden taxpayers trying to. Same with drugs, violence, fraud... - so fuck it -- I am encouraged when restrictive laws are passed. Those loyal enough to the USG to pay taxes are the people being punished with immigration laws.

[Agorism]

I think it's fine to oppose overzealous enforcement.

If a state or city does it on their own, that's fine too.

[Adolfo Mena Gonzalez]

Make all the laws you want. Nobody gives a fuck. Libertarians, conservatives, liberals... -- almost everyone active in politics never seems to realize this.

You can't stop illegal immigration, just burden taxpayers trying to. Same with drugs, violence, fraud... - so fuck it -- I am encouraged when restrictive laws are passed. Those loyal enough to the USG to pay taxes are the people being punished with immigration laws.
You can definitely reduce, maybe not stop all together, but certainly reduce illegal immigration through law enforcement and the passage of new laws. It is a matter of fact that 100,000 illegal immigrants have left Arizona since the passage of SB 1070, Romas are also being rounded up and/or self deporting in France. I don't feel like I am being punished, and in the long run, enforcement of immigration laws costs less than allowing illegals to drain public services and the social costs are less as they don't drag down the communities they squat in.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/05/03/eveningnews/main6457212.shtml

[Monarchist]

I would suggest placing the borders under the responsibility of various margraves, with command of their own armies, to solve the issue of unauthorized immigration.

[osan]

without a defineable national identity and culture that embraces individual liberty for OURSELVES, and protects it zealously from all comers, we are dead before we even start.


That.

I will say one thing about gypsies: they are their own worst enemy in many ways. They are culturally inclined to thievery and violence. I know this first hand having spent a lot of time in place like Hungary watching them. It is the way they choose to live and interact with others, which is the reason they are despised. Accountability cuts all ways and one cannot reasonably assert that the dislike of gypsies is purely based in "racism". It is demonstrably false.

Back in the 80s or early 90s, Hungary went all PC and built huge housing complexes for gypsies. They destroyed those places in short order and were nuisances as they have always been. Most refused to use the toilets and would go down to the bushes and crap there. When hundreds are doing the same in a relatively confined space, not only is it disgusting, it is hazardous. On the whole, gypsies really do behave in very vile ways - notably more so than most other ethnic groups with which I have become familiar.

It may not be right to kick them out of a nation, but their behaviors are not right either, on the whole. Were it just that they were "different", I'd understand the complaint. They are criminals mostly and they are therefore accountable for such behavior. Because of the ingrained criminality of their culture, it is no wonder most everyone wants them gone. I sure as hell would not want to live amongst them.

[crazyfacedjenkins]

That.

I will say one thing about gypsies: they are theor own worst enemy in many ways. They are culturally incliend to thievery and violence. I know this first hand having spent a lot of time in place like Hungary watching them. It is the way they choose to live and interact with others, which is the reason they are despised. Accountability cuts all ways and one cannot reasonably assert that the dislike of gypsies is purely based in "racism". It is demonstrably false.

Back in the 80s or early 90s, Hungary wen't all PC and built huge housing complexes for gypsies. They destroyed those places in short order and were nuissances as they have always been. Most refused to use the toilets and would god down to the bushes and crap there. When hundreds are doing the same in a relatively confined space, not only is it disgusting, it is hazardous. On the whole, gypsies really do behave in very vile ways - notably more so than most other ethnic groups with which I have become familiar.

It may not be right to kick them out of a nation, but their behaviors are not right either, on the whole. Were it just that they were "different", I'd understand the complaint. They are criminals mostly and they are therefore accountable for such behavior. Because of the ingrained criminality of their culture, it is no wonder most everyone wants them gone. I sure as hell would not want to live amongst them.

This shit is fucking racist. God forbid you focus on the individual criminals instead of lumping everyone in the "them" category. What if you were a law abiding gypsy, how would you feel if you were lumped in with all the criminals? Way to be anti liberty and individual freedom.

[Heimdallr]

That.

I will say one thing about gypsies: they are theor own worst enemy in many ways. They are culturally incliend to thievery and violence. I know this first hand having spent a lot of time in place like Hungary watching them. It is the way they choose to live and interact with others, which is the reason they are despised. Accountability cuts all ways and one cannot reasonably assert that the dislike of gypsies is purely based in "racism". It is demonstrably false.

Back in the 80s or early 90s, Hungary wen't all PC and built huge housing complexes for gypsies. They destroyed those places in short order and were nuissances as they have always been. Most refused to use the toilets and would god down to the bushes and crap there. When hundreds are doing the same in a relatively confined space, not only is it disgusting, it is hazardous. On the whole, gypsies really do behave in very vile ways - notably more so than most other ethnic groups with which I have become familiar.

It may not be right to kick them out of a nation, but their behaviors are not right either, on the whole. Were it just that they were "different", I'd understand the complaint. They are criminals mostly and they are therefore accountable for such behavior. Because of the ingrained criminality of their culture, it is no wonder most everyone wants them gone. I sure as hell would not want to live amongst them.

How collectivist of you.

[crazyfacedjenkins]

Attention Illegal immigrants, GTFO!

Get over yourself, we don't want you or your shit culture here. I'll take a hard working capitalist illegal over a whiny brat any day.

[Brian4Liberty]

Another Zombie thread rises from the grave...

Crime is crime. No reason to single out a particular group.

[osan]

This shit is fucking racist. God forbid you focus on the individual criminals instead of lumping everyone in the "them" category. What if you were a law abiding gypsy, how would you feel if you were lumped in with all the criminals? Way to be anti liberty and individual freedom.

Spew all the emotionalist nonsense you please. I've been there and experienced these people first hand. It has nothing to do with race and everything to do with behavior. I will also point out your problems in reading comprehension. Nowhere did I say they were all the same. I wrote that on the whole the behavior is criminal - meaning mainly. Go to Hungary and you will find not many people who care much for gypsies not because they are gypsies but because of the ways most behave. I have spent day after day watching them for hours on end as they would mug and beat people in broad daylight, for example, on Market Street in Debrecen. I have observed this activity all seasons of the year, year in and year out. That is not racism. It is simply observed fact.

Make whatever charge of "racism" you please. It does not impress me much. My opinions are based on first hand observation, not second hand hearsay.

[osan]

How collectivist of you.\

Please elaborate. The statement as it stands conveys no discernible meaning.

[Adolfo Mena Gonzalez]

Get over yourself, we don't want you or your shit culture here. I'll take a hard working capitalist illegal over a whiny brat any day.

All those Mestizo Libertarians, lol, how exactly did "Latinos" vote in the last election? How are you going to convince a family of ten who lives in a two room apartment that getting rid of the income tax and cutting the department of education or their food stamps is good for them, do you seriously think they will vote for such a platform.

[crazyfacedjenkins]

All those Mestizo Libertarians, lol, how exactly did "Latinos" vote in the last election? How are you going to convince a family of ten who lives in a two room apartment that getting rid of the income tax and cutting the department of education or their food stamps is good for them, do you seriously think they will vote for such a platform.

Where in my post did I specify Latinos? Furthermore, what do voting US citizens have to do with illegals????? More logic fail from a xenophobic, whiny liberal who's job was taken by a much harder working capitalist illegal. As far as I'm concerned, I'll take a person who travels thousands of miles and risks their life just for a job over some whiny brat any day of the week.

[crazyfacedjenkins]

Spew all the emotionalist nonsense you please. I've been there and experienced these people first hand. It has nothing to do with race and everything to do with behavior. I will also point out your problems in reading comprehension. Nowhere did I say they were all the same. I wrote that on the whole the behavior is criminal - meaning mainly. Go to Hungary and you will find not many people who care much for gypsies not because they are gypsies but because of the ways most behave. I have spent day after day watching them for hours on end as they would mug and beat people in broad daylight, for example, on Market Street in Debrecen. I have observed this activity all seasons of the year, year in and year out. That is not racism. It is simply observed fact.

Make whatever charge of "racism" you please. It does not impress me much. My opinions are based on first hand observation, not second hand hearsay.

I've heard this shameless racist shit thousands of times before, it doesn't impress me much. Go ahead and side with a tyrant like Sarkozy, who openly pisses on democracy in the UN.

[Adolfo Mena Gonzalez]

Where in my post did I specify Latinos? Furthermore, what do voting US citizens have to do with illegals????? More logic fail from a xenophobic, whiny liberal who's job was taken by a much harder working capitalist illegal. As far as I'm concerned, I'll take a person who travels thousands of miles and risks their life just for a job over some whiny brat any day of the week.

Most illegals are "latino", that is just common sense. Illegals have children in the United States who vote , and "Latinos" aka Mestizos, vote as a bloc for pro-establishment and welfarist candidates. They support growing the welfare state and restricting economic freedom.

You are just engaging in name calling, and making yourself look immature. And your immature and hateful view towards Americans is the reason that the Libertarian Party will never win an election or be politically relevant, because of jerks like you who are antagonistic towards working americans who have to deal with lower wages and unemployment as a result of illegal immigration.

[Adolfo Mena Gonzalez]

I've heard this shameless racist shit thousands of times before, it doesn't impress me much. Go ahead and side with a tyrant like Sarkozy, who openly pisses on democracy in the UN.

Democracy should be pissed on.

[crazyfacedjenkins]

Democracy should be pissed on.

I'm assuming you're from that group of people who thinks democracy is bad but a representative democracy is good.

More asinine statements from someone who doesn't know the difference between tyranny of the majority and checks and balances. A representative democracy doesn't prevent tyranny of the majority, checks and balances do.

[crazyfacedjenkins]

Most illegals are "latino", that is just common sense. Illegals have children in the United States who vote , and "Latinos" aka Mestizos, vote as a bloc for pro-establishment and welfarist candidates. They support growing the welfare state and restricting economic freedom.

Once again, illegals don't vote. Also, just because you believe in collectivism doesn't mean you can kick out people who don't vote the way you want them to.


You are just engaging in name calling, and making yourself look immature. And your immature and hateful view towards Americans is the reason that the Libertarian Party will never win an election or be politically relevant, because of jerks like you who are antagonistic towards working americans who have to deal with lower wages and unemployment as a result of illegal immigration.

If you actually think that, you don't have a clue how free markets work.

[agar]

Good for France!

"Roma" is a recent politically correct term for gypsies.

Since time immemorial, gypsies have been a race of thieves and scam artists, hated by all host nations.

That's not a "racist" claim...it's actually the essence of their culture and they are proud of it. "Roma" raise their kids to shoplift and run scams. Italians are fed up with them and now so are the French.

Remember Cher's old song from the 70's - "Gypsies, tramps and thieves."

[nobody's_hero]

France has been fighting a losing battle on the issue for ages. If nothing else, they'll serve as an example of what will probably happen to us, in any case.

[AxisMundi]

A national identity and culture. Whatever you say Mussolini.

1. Each and every Illegal Alien currently residing within our borders is a rude slap in the face to each and every naturalized citizen who has taken the time and trouble to become US citizens.

2. Illegal Aliens cost US tax payers billions annually. What small amount of sales taxes collected from them do not come close to offsetting the cost of educating their children, welfare programs, medical costs, and imprisonment for the inevitable criminal element that has snuck in with the otherwise law abiding, hard working people looking for a better life, people who have no real interest in becoming citizens and therefor should not be here.

Offer a six month amnesty to leave, Those that sign up on the way out get placed at the top of the list for work/school visas. As Canada currently offers a six month amnesty for foreign nationals, those Illegal Aliens from overseas would have a place to go. In six months, begin the work/school visa lottery. Any Illegal Alien found within our borders after that six month period would be incarcerated and then deported.

Heavy fines and imprisonment for employers/renters who knowingly hire Illegal Aliens should also be implemented after said amnesty period.

"National Identity" and "culture", considering the nature of our Nation, are false flags, so to speak. However, there are real and serious concerns generated by the population of Illegal Aliens.

[AxisMundi]

Good for France!

"Roma" is a recent politically correct term for gypsies.

Since time immemorial, gypsies have been a race of thieves and scam artists, hated by all host nations.

That's not a "racist" claim...it's actually the essence of their culture and they are proud of it. "Roma" raise their kids to shoplift and run scams. Italians are fed up with them and now so are the French.

Remember Cher's old song from the 70's - "Gypsies, tramps and thieves."

Roma is the ancient term, not a modern one, gypsies is the modern, derogatory term for this ethnic group that originated in India.

And in certain areas of Europe, such as Romania and the Kalderash group, they are a quite prosperous, accepted part of society.

So might I suggest that you refrain from horrid generalizations.

Certainly some are thieves, in areas where they are forced into an underground subculture by racism. But to claim all are is simple generalization.

[tnvoter]

There's no issues with illegal immigration when it's not a welfare state.

HO-HUM

:)

[Adolfo Mena Gonzalez]

I'm assuming you're from that group of people who thinks democracy is bad but a representative democracy is good.

More asinine statements from someone who doesn't know the difference between tyranny of the majority and checks and balances. A representative democracy doesn't prevent tyranny of the majority, checks and balances do.

No, you assume wrong. And I don't need a civics lecture from a presumptive asshole like you. I know what a Republic is.

[Adolfo Mena Gonzalez]

Once again, illegals don't vote. Also, just because you believe in collectivism doesn't mean you can kick out people who don't vote the way you want them to.



If you actually think that, you don't have a clue how free markets work.

No one ever said illegals vote, so I don't why you keep saying that like I said so. I can most certainly vote for politicians who will deport illegals, prevent their kids form getting citizenship, and prevent people from immigrating here who believe in growing the state.

Please, enlighten me on how a market works, if wages are not determined by the supply and demand of labor, than what are they determined by? And if unemployed americans don't go on unemployment insurance, what do they go on?

[crazyfacedjenkins]

No one ever said illegals vote, so I don't why you keep saying that like I said so. I can most certainly vote for politicians who will deport illegals, prevent their kids form getting citizenship, and prevent people from immigrating here who believe in growing the state.

Please, enlighten me on how a market works, if wages are not determined by the supply and demand of labor, than what are they determined by? And if unemployed americans don't go on unemployment insurance, what do they go on?

Illegals do the work for cheap, the prices of goods fall. We can use the now freed resources for more jobs. Do I really have to spell it out on rpf??? What the fuck happened to these god damn forums, they're flooded with liberal neocons!!!

[crazyfacedjenkins]

No one ever said illegals vote, so I don't why you keep saying that like I said so. I can most certainly vote for politicians who will deport illegals, prevent their kids form getting citizenship, and prevent people from immigrating here who believe in growing the state.

Please, enlighten me on how a market works, if wages are not determined by the supply and demand of labor, than what are they determined by? And if unemployed americans don't go on unemployment insurance, what do they go on?

We live in a fucking democracy! The word democracy doesn't always mean direct democracy. If you think pissing on a democracy is ok, then get out of these forums mr 59 posts. Why can't you trolls just get the message when you're banned???

[cindy25]

when the economy is bad it's easy to blame foreign labor.

[crazyfacedjenkins]

when the economy is bad it's easy to blame foreign labor.

Exactly. Notice how Sarkozy, Berlusconi, Merkel, etc want complete control over the economy, but when their policies fail it's the immigrants fault!! It's the same old pathetic scapegoating that has happened for millennia, and the fact that members at rpf would fall for is despicable. They're siding with a bunch of totalitarian fascists, completely diametrically opposed to free markets and capitalism.

Germany's Angela Merkel: Multiculturalism has 'utterly failed' (http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Global-News/2010/1017/Germany-s-Angela-Merkel-Multiculturalism-has-utterly-failed)
Berlusconi clamps down on Gypsies (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/may/22/italy1)

[crazyfacedjenkins]

That.

I will say one thing about gypsies: they are their own worst enemy in many ways. They are culturally inclined to thievery and violence. I know this first hand having spent a lot of time in place like Hungary watching them. It is the way they choose to live and interact with others, which is the reason they are despised. Accountability cuts all ways and one cannot reasonably assert that the dislike of gypsies is purely based in "racism". It is demonstrably false.

Back in the 80s or early 90s, Hungary went all PC and built huge housing complexes for gypsies. They destroyed those places in short order and were nuisances as they have always been. Most refused to use the toilets and would go down to the bushes and crap there. When hundreds are doing the same in a relatively confined space, not only is it disgusting, it is hazardous. On the whole, gypsies really do behave in very vile ways - notably more so than most other ethnic groups with which I have become familiar.

It may not be right to kick them out of a nation, but their behaviors are not right either, on the whole. Were it just that they were "different", I'd understand the complaint. They are criminals mostly and they are therefore accountable for such behavior. Because of the ingrained criminality of their culture, it is no wonder most everyone wants them gone. I sure as hell would not want to live amongst them.

This is the problem, socialist. Nobody is suggesting tax dollars should be used to aid one group over another. Since you blame people for government mismanagement, you really are turning out to be quite a totalitarian socialist (the worst kind of socialist). I guess that's to be expected from someone who works for the government.

[Kludge]

All those Mestizo Libertarians, lol, how exactly did "Latinos" vote in the last election? How are you going to convince a family of ten who lives in a two room apartment that getting rid of the income tax and cutting the department of education or their food stamps is good for them, do you seriously think they will vote for such a platform.

All those White Libertarians, lol, how exactly did "Whites" vote in the last election?

[Austrian Econ Disciple]

The border zealots should really focus their intention on who is really voting for these programs (And hint: it isn't those rascally Mexicans). It isn't the non-voting illegal immigrant who works outside the tyrannous laws and taxation. Instead of focusing on the cause they focus on the symptom. Continuing to do this will result in failure, just as if trying to kill a virus you don't attack your white blood cells. By this I mean liberty. There wouldn't be a need for underground workers, if there were no programs there to cause it. Therefore, attacking immigrants (we can eliminate the boorish and logically inconsistent argument that people use here -- they are against illegals, but not immigrants because the latter is following the law, but then will rail against the former for economic reasons, but not the latter clearly showing their hypocrisy and dissonance.) is the easy path. I don't hear the rallying cries to deport all San Franciscans or everyone who lives in Seattle, or Baltimore, or NYC, or Miami, or Madison, etc. The fact is Americans mostly want what we have now. I find it curious and odd the border zealots aren't actually going after the majority who 'votes' themselves stolen goods. In fact, country bumpkins aren't any better seeing as how Republicans and Democrats alike love to disperse stolen goods amongst themselves on their own personal preferences.

Here again, we run into a foundational philosophical contradiction. (This happens when your entire philosophical outlook is irrevocably reduced to a piece of paper which isn't even a philosophical work, as it is a short list of Federal Government powers) This is how we get a dichotomy where someone is for one thing at a 'State' level, and not for it at a 'Federal' level, never realizing the two entities are the same thing, merely differing distances apart. Granted, distance does matter a lot, but I fail to see how that matters in coming to a conclusion on legitimate Government powers, or in other words, which liberties you deem us cows to let have. We also come to a point where those who follow the mantra ends justify the means, clash with those of us who believe the means must comport to your ends. History if anything is a beacon here. You can't reach peace by violence. The market and liberty is peace. Property is peace. The border zealots would have us believe that the property stolen from us, to get this, stop us from getting stolen from will be used objectively pursuant to one goal, presuming that the Government can even fulfill this goal in the first place. It is like the War on Terror. The border zealots would have us believe like the War zealots that stealing your property will necessarily result in a given conclusion -- Peace through War, or alternatively Liberty through Tyranny.

So, I must repeat again, we have to fight against tyranny, not enable it. Of course libertarians are not consequentialists. That road leads to all sorts of things, but of course your good intentions mean everything. Luckily, Austrianism and libertarianism is grounded on a firm notion of Human Action, and self-ownership. If good intentions meant anything then our Government would be the greatest thing since slice bread, but I will have to disagree with that conclusion.

And now the socialists will proclaim I am against borders, because I am against State-borders. It is as if the socialists would say I am against food when I want the State out of the food producing business.

[Brian4Liberty]

"Of Course This Land Is Dangerous,
All Of The Animals Are Capably Murderous.
One Must Eat The Other Who Runs Free Before Him,
Put Them Right Into His Mouth."

[osan]

I've heard this shameless racist shit thousands of times before, it doesn't impress me much. Go ahead and side with a tyrant like Sarkozy, who openly pisses on democracy in the UN.

Very entertaining. I've sided with nobody. All I did was offer a few observations and you go apoplectic.

Seriously, you should work on your reading comprehension - or you honesty. One or both are lousy.

[osan]

Democracy should be pissed on.

Hear hear.

[dannno]

No, there is no national culture. Cultures vary based on the people in an area. New England will always have a different culture than the Bible Belt. If you think you can force your cultural bullshit down the throats of everyone else, you're a statist tool.

Paleoconservativism is no more reasonable than neoconservatism. It's the same fascist crap.

Seriously, this country doesn't belong to white Christians, and white Christians have no basis for shoving their culture down anybody's throat. It goes completely against what our country originally stood for. You can't live in a free society where there is tyranny inflicted to have a certain culture. You either live in a free society or you don't.

[dannno]

The border zealots should really focus their intention on who is really voting for these programs (And hint: it isn't those rascally Mexicans). It isn't the non-voting illegal immigrant who works outside the tyrannous laws and taxation. Instead of focusing on the cause they focus on the symptom. Continuing to do this will result in failure, just as if trying to kill a virus you don't attack your white blood cells. By this I mean liberty. There wouldn't be a need for underground workers, if there were no programs there to cause it. Therefore, attacking immigrants (we can eliminate the boorish and logically inconsistent argument that people use here -- they are against illegals, but not immigrants because the latter is following the law, but then will rail against the former for economic reasons, but not the latter clearly showing their hypocrisy and dissonance.) is the easy path. I don't hear the rallying cries to deport all San Franciscans or everyone who lives in Seattle, or Baltimore, or NYC, or Miami, or Madison, etc. The fact is Americans mostly want what we have now. I find it curious and odd the border zealots aren't actually going after the majority who 'votes' themselves stolen goods. In fact, country bumpkins aren't any better seeing as how Republicans and Democrats alike love to disperse stolen goods amongst themselves on their own personal preferences.

Here again, we run into a foundational philosophical contradiction. (This happens when your entire philosophical outlook is irrevocably reduced to a piece of paper which isn't even a philosophical work, as it is a short list of Federal Government powers) This is how we get a dichotomy where someone is for one thing at a 'State' level, and not for it at a 'Federal' level, never realizing the two entities are the same thing, merely differing distances apart. Granted, distance does matter a lot, but I fail to see how that matters in coming to a conclusion on legitimate Government powers, or in other words, which liberties you deem us cows to let have. We also come to a point where those who follow the mantra ends justify the means, clash with those of us who believe the means must comport to your ends. History if anything is a beacon here. You can't reach peace by violence. The market and liberty is peace. Property is peace. The border zealots would have us believe that the property stolen from us, to get this, stop us from getting stolen from will be used objectively pursuant to one goal, presuming that the Government can even fulfill this goal in the first place. It is like the War on Terror. The border zealots would have us believe like the War zealots that stealing your property will necessarily result in a given conclusion -- Peace through War, or alternatively Liberty through Tyranny.

So, I must repeat again, we have to fight against tyranny, not enable it. Of course libertarians are not consequentialists. That road leads to all sorts of things, but of course your good intentions mean everything. Luckily, Austrianism and libertarianism is grounded on a firm notion of Human Action, and self-ownership. If good intentions meant anything then our Government would be the greatest thing since slice bread, but I will have to disagree with that conclusion.

And now the socialists will proclaim I am against borders, because I am against State-borders. It is as if the socialists would say I am against food when I want the State out of the food producing business.

Another good post.. I don't understand how people think more tyranny is going to some how lead to freedom.

[AxisMundi]

Illegals do the work for cheap, the prices of goods fall. We can use the now freed resources for more jobs. Do I really have to spell it out on rpf??? What the fuck happened to these god damn forums, they're flooded with liberal neocons!!!

You exhibit part of the Supply Side Economic Theory mentality, a neocon ideology.

A failed economic theory, doomed from the start, proven Failed since it was first put into practice during the Reagen era.

As with assuming investors will invest where it does the economy the most good (as opposed to where it makes them the most money, which is good and proper), assuming that companies will charge less for a product simply because they use dirt cheap illegal labor is also an invalid theory.

Companies will charge for their products based on market prices. They will readily use illegal workers to increase their profit margin.

[AxisMundi]

Ladies and gentlemen...

The idea of "culture preservation" is simply a distraction. It is invalid for the purpose of discussing the concerns of Illegal Aliens within our borders. America is, and has always been, the veritable melting pot, a wonderful and wondrous cacophony of at times widely different cultures all coming together to harmoniously create the "American Culture".

Baseball and Apple Pie were not American inventions, ladies and gentlemen.

However, part of being a United States citizen, naturally born or naturalized, is to recognize that there are indeed certain "glues" which hold this Nation together, one of those being a common language so that we, as fellow citizens, can communicate.

What is more important in the Illegal Alien Question are...

Substandard working and/or housing conditions for Illegals. IA's (Illegal Aliens simply because I have arthritic and I'm getting sick of typing it out) do not have the same resources and protections that US Citizens enjoy. They cannot go to a labor board if they are fired, they cannot Unionize (an American right even if I don't necessarily agree with Unions), they cannot complain about dangerous working conditions or required long hours, they simply have no legal recourse. They cannot complain to authorities for peeling lead paint in their rented homes, or for rent far above market prices either. Lack of water service, electricity, broken sewage systems, leaking roofs... the list goes on. To complain is to face deportation, so IA's do not complain and are taken advantage of by greedy landlords and employers.

IA's also face concerns in sneaking into this country at the hands of dishonest, greedy "brokers". People die in shipping containers, in the open desert, wedged into tiny compartments built into the oddest of places never meant for human habitation. IA's pay outrageous prices, and sometimes never stop paying. The underground sex slave trade is an ongoing concern in this Nation, and see women, and girls, effectively sold into slavery to pay their way, where they face beatings, rape, and disease, if not death, by their "owner's" clients. Those "lucky" enough not to become enslaved in such a manner may still face what equates to slavery at the hands of "coyotes" who will forcibly take a portion of the IA's wages in payment for their entry into the country. And the IA simply has no recourse of action. Pay the extortion money, or be reported and deported.

One can argue about legitimate concerns. Tax revenue absorbed by IA's, the criminal elements which sneak in with honest people, jobs, no interest in citizenship and/or the difficulties inherent in our current outdated and overworked Immigration and Naturalization system, etc.

But one of the main issues that is too often overlooked is simply the humanitarian concerns IA's face.

[dannno]

You exhibit part of the Supply Side Economic Theory mentality, a neocon ideology.

A failed economic theory, doomed from the start, proven Failed since it was first put into practice during the Reagen era.

As with assuming investors will invest where it does the economy the most good (as opposed to where it makes them the most money, which is good and proper), assuming that companies will charge less for a product simply because they use dirt cheap illegal labor is also an invalid theory.

Companies will charge for their products based on market prices. They will readily use illegal workers to increase their profit margin.

LOL, you have very little practical knowledge of how economics works. If one company starts using cheaper labor, then they can hire more labor, lower their bids and get more jobs... hire MORE labor, get more bids, more jobs, more profit. If the lack of quality of work from the cheaper labor is of less value than the reduction in cost then they will have advantage over their competitors. The other companies then start using the cheaper labor and lower their prices as well. Lower prices benefit everybody, but the problem with illegal labor is that they are not on a level playing field since they often get paid under the table, or have multiple jobs making low enough income with fake work credentials at each job so they don't end up paying taxes anyway. If not for the tax difference, then nobody could legitimately claim that anybody is taking anyone else's job.

Secondly, nobody here advocates supply side economics that Reagan had, we advocates free markets. Ron Paul had a bumper sticker in his '88 campaign that said "We're Bush'd of Reaganomics! Ron Paul '88".

The fact is, in a free market whatever is most profitable SHOULD be invested in so that the PROFIT MARGINS GO DOWN. If there is a cell phone company making a $100 profit margin off a particular phone and that is much higher than other cell phones, then by investing in that company or another similar company to make a similar product you end up producing more and lowering the cost, and thus lowering the profit margin. Whatever is most profitable is what is most in demand by the market, and that is what should be produced.

[AxisMundi]

LOL, you have very little practical knowledge of how economics works. If one company starts using cheaper labor, then they can hire more labor, lower their bids and get more jobs... hire MORE labor, get more bids, more jobs, more profit. If the lack of quality of work from the cheaper labor is of less value than the reduction in cost then they will have advantage over their competitors. The other companies then start using the cheaper labor and lower their prices as well. Lower prices benefit everybody, but the problem with illegal labor is that they are not on a level playing field since they often get paid under the table, or have multiple jobs making low enough income with fake work credentials at each job so they don't end up paying taxes anyway. If not for the tax difference, then nobody could legitimately claim that anybody is taking anyone else's job.

Secondly, nobody here advocates supply side economics that Reagan had, we advocates free markets. Ron Paul had a bumper sticker in his '88 campaign that said "We're Bush'd of Reaganomics! Ron Paul '88".

The fact is, in a free market whatever is most profitable SHOULD be invested in so that the PROFIT MARGINS GO DOWN. If there is a cell phone company making a $100 profit margin off a particular phone and that is much higher than other cell phones, then by investing in that company or another similar company to make a similar product you end up producing more and lowering the cost, and thus lowering the profit margin. Whatever is most profitable is what is most in demand by the market, and that is what should be produced.

My economic knowledge is more than up to the task of debating differing economic theories, and their effectiveness. Your cell phone example is simply nonsensical, however it is graphed out. Companies are in the business of making profit, and will do whatever they can to keep the profit margin as large as humanly possible.

My economic knowledge is also based in reality as well, plus the experiences of nearly a half-century of life. Your own comments illustrate how illegal labor has not lowered prices at all.

Also, part of the supply side economic theory promoted by the GOP includes the idea of a Free-For-All market, as opposed to the regulated, healthy, and prosperous Free Markets of the past. The removal of certain controls, starting with the Clinton Administration (a noble idea FUBARed, attempting to permit lower income families to obtain housing loans without putting guards in place) and accelerated by the Bush43 Administration across the market has driven this country nearly into the ditch.

[Adolfo Mena Gonzalez]

Illegals do the work for cheap, the prices of goods fall. We can use the now freed resources for more jobs. Do I really have to spell it out on rpf??? What the fuck happened to these god damn forums, they're flooded with liberal neocons!!!

Great, so we can give everyone a job for peanuts like we are the third world, tell me when that happens, because prices haven't fallen yet, they have gone up, and not everyone is employed at a shit wage, in fact, unemployment is at 10%. You are talking about economics in your anarchistic imaginationland, not in the real world. In the real world, as the supply of labor increases, real wages fall, and those who are willing to work for less(the illegals), take the jobs from Americans who won't work for below minimum wage. What you seem to be advocating is a rat race to the bottom, where most Americans work for slave wage, and as we import more third worlders, America becomes the third world.

[Adolfo Mena Gonzalez]

We live in a fucking democracy! The word democracy doesn't always mean direct democracy. If you think pissing on a democracy is ok, then get out of these forums mr 59 posts. Why can't you trolls just get the message when you're banned???

No, we live in a Republic, not a democracy, learn the difference.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJTfwbI6lKI

[Austrian Econ Disciple]

A Republic is a type of Democracy. Is voting not how the Government is determined? The whole idea of a representative is a bunch of balogne in the first place. Only you, can represent yourself (Which is how the market works!). Even Ron who is fairly close to me philosophically does not represent me. If I lived in Pelosi's district she definitely wouldn't even come close. How can you even proclaim to tell libertarians and those of differing philosophical persuasians that their so-called 'representatives' actually represent them? If people get beyond slogans and actually penetrate how things operate perhaps we may get somewhere. Even going beyond all that, all Governments are necessarily the same. They are all formed on the basis of the initiation of violence and aggression and widespread and institutionalized theft.

Hell, name one Government where there wasn't law? Communists had laws. Nazi's had laws. King George had laws. Even anarchies have laws! There are always laws, either written or unwritten. Rule of law is not a type of system of Governance whatsoever, as it is inherent in human society. Society itself is not a product of Government and is itself a totally seperate concept. Proponents of Montisque and Hobbes blur these distinctions and furthermore are philosophically muddled and incoherent. Also, anarchy is not without rulers. It is without arbitrary rulers (And let me assure you Divine Right and Social Contract are arbitrary as hell). This nuanced distinction of course is missed by JBS. One leaves this with a feeling that JBS isn't actually going for a scholarly work and understanding of liberty and Government. This is of course not surprising.

[Kludge]

A republic is always a democracy though a democracy isn't always a republic.

A Republic is a representative democracy, especially true now that senators are directly elected.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/democracy

[dannno]

Great, so we can give everyone a job for peanuts like we are the third world, tell me when that happens, because prices haven't fallen yet, they have gone up, and not everyone is employed at a shit wage, in fact, unemployment is at 10%. You are talking about economics in your anarchistic imaginationland, not in the real world. In the real world, as the supply of labor increases, real wages fall, and those who are willing to work for less(the illegals), take the jobs from Americans who won't work for below minimum wage. What you seem to be advocating is a rat race to the bottom, where most Americans work for slave wage, and as we import more third worlders, America becomes the third world.

It's not that illegals are willing to work for less as much as it is that they often get paid under the table or using false documentation that allows them to fudge total income and such.

They have to pay a citizen $17/hour just to equal the illegal's $10/hour wage under the table..

Also it's not really fair to talk about prices going up when we are supporting a worldwide military empire and a corporate welfare state with our central bank.

[Adolfo Mena Gonzalez]

All those White Libertarians, lol, how exactly did "Whites" vote in the last election?

Libertarians are disproportionately white to the actual population, whereas "Latinos" are disproportionately not libertarian to their population.
http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa580.pdf

[Kludge]

Libertarians are disproportionately white to the actual population, whereas "Latinos" are disproportionately not libertarian to their population.
http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa580.pdf

Still, the vast majority of Whites voted for either McCain or Obama in the 2008 election.

[Adolfo Mena Gonzalez]

It's not that illegals are willing to work for less as much as it is that they often get paid under the table or using false documentation that allows them to fudge total income and such.

They have to pay a citizen $17/hour just to equal the illegal's $10/hour wage under the table..

Also it's not really fair to talk about prices going up when we are supporting a worldwide military empire and a corporate welfare state with our central bank.
You are just playing word games Danno, illegals do work for less, you are just obfuscating the issue.

And it is totally fair to talk about higher prices, central banking, the military empire and mass immigration all in one, because they are all supported by the establishment, and negatively effect the American people. Americans get the shaft, as prices rise due to inflation, and working class people lose jobs to legal and illegal immigrants who work for less and drive down wages.

[Adolfo Mena Gonzalez]

Still, the vast majority of Whites voted for either McCain or Obama in the 2008 election.

The majority of whites voted for McCain, but the majority support smaller government, and are far more sympathetic to small government ideals than non-whites.

[Austrian Econ Disciple]

The majority of whites voted for McCain, but the majority support smaller government, and are far more sympathetic to small government ideals than non-whites.

You have to be kidding me right?

[Kludge]

The majority of whites voted for McCain, but the majority support smaller government, and are far more sympathetic to small government ideals than non-whites.

Is that what a majority-vote for McCain, whose campaign primarily consisted of talking about how he'd secure America through continued war, suggests? Thinking off the top of my head of who has actually brought real tangible change in favor of smaller government within the past decade, I can only think of Clarence Thomas, Scalia in many cases, and perhaps Assange depending on how his releases are acted on.

[Adolfo Mena Gonzalez]

You have to be kidding me right?

I am not kidding, the majority of Americans support spending and tax cuts, and those Americans are white.

[Adolfo Mena Gonzalez]

Is that what a majority-vote for McCain, whose campaign primarily consisted of talking about how he'd secure America through continued war, suggests? Thinking off the top of my head of who has actually brought real tangible change in favor of smaller government within the past decade, I can only think of Clarence Thomas, Scalia in many cases, and perhaps Assange depending on how his releases are acted on.
Well, the polls suggest that most Americans support spending and tax cuts, I am not saying I agree with their vote, but they clearly viewed McCain as more sympathetic to this view than Obama.

[osan]

I am not kidding, the majority of Americans support spending and tax cuts, and those Americans are white.


What the hell? Have you personally spoken with the majority of Americans?

Is "white" an issue? If so, how? If not, why mention it?

[DAFTEK]

..

[Petit Tonnerre]

Sound familiar? Read between the lines. Either the AP is working the same script or "illegal" immigrants are scapegoated in every nation as a means to take attention away from the inefficiencies of big government and divert public anger.



It would be so easy to interject the term "illegal immigrant" or "undocumented worker" into this article.

Just something to think about as we move to the New World Order.


They are not immigrants, you're naive.

They are a buch of animal scums, they steal, they kill, they rob the average people. This is the way they have lived for centuries from the Middle ages on.

They never come to our country, to produce anything, but rather because they are sent to us by their countries governments which are rather happy to get rid of them, it has been shown that their governments even pay them the travel expenses.

All these problems exist because they integrated poor Eastern European countries in the EU, without holding any referendum, also because of the closing of checkpoints at borders, and the fact that we have gun control and if you shoot them to defend yourself, you go to prison, and they know it.

Everyone I know has a bad story to tell about them that happened to him or her.
Now everyday I use the subway, I see at least one gypsy beggar anoying the people around in every car of the train or playing some shi**y music. It's getting worse each year, at least since they opened the Eastern borders.

People who defend them now, don't understand that, once the Western European economies collapse, we might have a race war...:(

[Pete Kay]

America is, and has always been, the veritable melting pot, a wonderful and wondrous cacophony of at times widely different cultures all coming together to harmoniously create the "American Culture".

See, it's this type of liberal egalitarian bullshit that drives me crazy. Multi-culturalism has never been harmonious. It always leads to strife. It only seems harmonious after the fact, once disparate groups of people have finally blended together to form a more homogeneous group. The process has never been and never will be easy.

Some of you need to think about whether Americans even want to deal with the friction that massive immigration causes. Most don't. It's only the elites that keep banging the drum of unlimited immigration. Why would anyone want to be displaced economically, politically and culturally? What kind of insane person wants to give more votes to others that have a different set of interests? What causes some to believe that millions of immigrants from another country will somehow care about the people that were there before them more than they do those that are like themselves?

[crazyfacedjenkins]

They are not immigrants, you're naive.

They are a buch of animal scums, they steal, they kill, they rob the average people. This is the way they have lived for centuries from the Middle ages on.

They never come to our country, to produce anything, but rather because they are sent to us by their countries governments which are rather happy to get rid of them, it has been shown that their governments even pay them the travel expenses.

All these problems exist because they integrated poor Eastern European countries in the EU, without holding any referendum, also because of the closing of checkpoints at borders, and the fact that we have gun control and if you shoot them to defend yourself, you go to prison, and they know it.

Everyone I know has a bad story to tell about them that happened to him or her.
Now everyday I use the subway, I see at least one gypsy beggar anoying the people around in every car of the train or playing some shi**y music. It's getting worse each year, at least since they opened the Eastern borders.

People who defend them now, don't understand that, once the Western European economies collapse, we might have a race war...:(

Way to piss on people's right to express themselves. What the fuck are you doing on this forum?

[crazyfacedjenkins]

Great, so we can give everyone a job for peanuts like we are the third world, tell me when that happens, because prices haven't fallen yet, they have gone up, and not everyone is employed at a shit wage, in fact, unemployment is at 10%. You are talking about economics in your anarchistic imaginationland, not in the real world. In the real world, as the supply of labor increases, real wages fall, and those who are willing to work for less(the illegals), take the jobs from Americans who won't work for below minimum wage. What you seem to be advocating is a rat race to the bottom, where most Americans work for slave wage, and as we import more third worlders, America becomes the third world.

You going to piss and moan when I replace that manual labor with a machine? Using your logic, we should ban automobiles and bring back the horse and buggy. Nice try.

[crazyfacedjenkins]

No, we live in a Republic, not a democracy, learn the difference.
...


It's a representative democracy which falls in the category of indirect democracy. Do you really have that much trouble understanding the various categories of democracy?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varieties_of_democracy#Indirect_democracy

[Petit Tonnerre]

Way to piss on people's right to express themselves. What the fuck are you doing on this forum?

It's a public subway, you idiot...this is no Libertarialand...everything is socialized in this country, everything is made so that you have no choice but to ride with the gypsies begging around or even stealing you, when all you want is to quietly go to work.
Most French agree with my point. You are one of those Human rights useful idiots, you are with the globalist elites on that one.

Don't talk about something you have no idea about. Don't act like an American with me.

[crazyfacedjenkins]

It's a public subway, you idiot...this is no Libertarialand...everything is socialized in this country, everything is made so that you have no choice but to ride with the gypsies begging around or even stealing you, when all you want is to quietly go to work.
Most French agree with my point. You are one of those Human rights useful idiots, you are with the globalist elites on that one.

Don't talk about something you have no idea about. Don't act like an American with me.

I don't give a shit, what are you doing on this forum if you are so anti liberty? If someone isn't harming anyone, it's non of your business how they behave.

[Petit Tonnerre]

I don't give a shit, what are you doing on this forum if you are so anti liberty? If someone isn't harming anyone, it's non of your business how they behave.

It's not a forum about liberty, it's a forum about Ron Paul. Ron Paul is not for open borders and illegal immigration. Gipsies are illegal immigrants, and to make it worse they allow themselves to annoy us the local people.

Chinese illegal immigrants, on the contrary, are nice people, they don't beg, steal and rob French people homes and they are working to improve our economy.
If everything has to be socialized, we want at least to have the right to say who we want to be socializing with. French don't want to socialize with the gypsies, you have to respect that.

[crazyfacedjenkins]

It's not a forum about liberty, it's a forum about Ron Paul. Ron Paul is not for open borders and illegal immigration. Gipsies are illegal immigrants, and to make it worse they allow themselves to annoy us the local people.


Ron Paul wants to make it easier for people to get their papers, he doesn't discriminate against people that annoy him.



Chinese illegal immigrants, on the contrary, are nice people, they don't beg, steal and rob French people homes and they are working to improve our economy.
If everything has to be socialized, we want at least to have the right to say who we want to be socializing with. French don't want to socialize with the gypsies, you have to respect that.

No I don't. Get over yourself.

[Petit Tonnerre]

Ron Paul wants to make it easier for people to get their papers, he doesn't discriminate against people that annoy him.


Gipsies themselves, they say they have no will to go through the whole paper process. Most gypsies in my country, their families have been there for maybe a century, and they still don't have their French papers. Because they don't consider themselves as belonging to our country, but to THEIR PEOPLE. Their group is everything to them, it's even more important than their own persons.

Last summer you had a young gypsy killed by the police while he was fleeing with a stolen car. He did a risky thing and paid the price for it, right ?
Well, what happened next is that his whole gypsy group, 200 people, attacked the local town they were living next to. They burned the town hall, the French flags, attacked the bakery, local shops, they have even cut trees on the main street...
This has shocked French people, you can understand that.




No I don't. Get over yourself.

I don't have anything against you personally, and I can understand your point of view.
I just think it's rather easy and unfair to say that from far away. That's what the EU bureaucrats in Bruxelles have been telling French people this last summer, and you can understand, why most polls show, the French and the Europeans hate the eurocrat elites, as a result.

[crazyfacedjenkins]

Gipsies themselves, they say they have no will to go through the whole paper process. Most gypsies in my country, their families have been there for maybe a century, and they still don't have their French papers. Because they don't consider themselves as belonging to our country, but to THEIR PEOPLE. Their group is everything to them, it's even more important than their own persons.

Last summer you had a young gypsy killed by the police while he was fleeing with a stolen car. He did a risky thing and paid the price for it, right ?
Well, what happened next is that his whole gypsy group, 200 people, attacked the local town they were living next to. They burned the town hall, the French flags, attacked the bakery, local shops, they have even cut trees on the main street...

This has shocked French people, you can understand that.


When the French allow the pig cops to behave like fucking animals, they deserve the blow back riot. We have the same shit in the US, when people are shoved to the breaking point... they fucking break.


http://www.metacafe.com/watch/320686/rodney_king_beating/

"Blow back"


http://www.metacafe.com/watch/849785/l_a_riots/







I don't have anything against you personally, and I can understand your point of view.
I just think it's rather easy and unfair to say that from far away. That's what the EU bureaucrats in Bruxelles have been telling French people this last summer, and you can understand, why most polls show, the French and the Europeans hate the eurocrat elites, as a result.

Frankly, if the French are as bigoted as this, they deserve the elites shoving them around.

[AxisMundi]

See, it's this type of liberal egalitarian bullshit that drives me crazy. Multi-culturalism has never been harmonious. It always leads to strife. It only seems harmonious after the fact, once disparate groups of people have finally blended together to form a more homogeneous group. The process has never been and never will be easy.

Some of you need to think about whether Americans even want to deal with the friction that massive immigration causes. Most don't. It's only the elites that keep banging the drum of unlimited immigration. Why would anyone want to be displaced economically, politically and culturally? What kind of insane person wants to give more votes to others that have a different set of interests? What causes some to believe that millions of immigrants from another country will somehow care about the people that were there before them more than they do those that are like themselves?

You failed five words into your reply. I am not a liberal. Nor do I support "unlimited immigration". Apparently you are unaware of my position and posts concerning Illegal Aliens and how to get them out of our country. The very act of Naturalization only prepares a new prospective citizen to function in our Nation by ensuring marketable skills and a basic understanding of our language. It does not condition said prospective citizen to "act American" or become part of the "American Race".

We have never been anything BUT a multi-cultural Nation. Our citizens count among them ancestry from, or are born of, every single country, ethnicity, and religion on the planet, including those who were here before Europeans. Been that way since day one with immigrants who were English, Welsh, Scottish, Irish, French, German, Asians, free and enslaved Africans, Dutch, Italian, Spanish, et cetera ad nauseum. Not to mention all the different sects of Christians, Muslims, Jews, and Hindus, Buddhists, Shinto, heathens, pagans, and atheists as well.

So, feel free to explain how America has never been a multi-cultural Nation.

[Petit Tonnerre]

When the French allow the pig cops to behave like fucking animals, they deserve the blow back riot. We have the same shit in the US, when people are shoved to the breaking point... they fucking break.


Ok, maybe you have brutal cops in the US, but this might be the thing you fail to understand.
Here the cops are really weak, the silent majority is secretly rooting for them, while the leftist medias are all the time picking on them, calling them racists and other names. The politicians are so scared of these medias, that they don't send cops anymore to arrest gypsies, or to regain control in suburban ghettos, in order to avoid riots.
And now they have problems with cops who refuse to even enter in those gypsy camps anyways, I learned it firsthand from a friend who works for the ministry of interior.



Frankly, if the French are as bigoted as this, they deserve the elites shoving them around.

Now I see who you're rooting for... :D
What's funny with your answer, is that it could come from one of those communists advocating atrocities, after getting frustrated because little people don't want to share his great ideas.
I am sure, you mean well, but you are an ideologue. Ideology is not reality.

[Adolfo Mena Gonzalez]

You going to piss and moan when I replace that manual labor with a machine? Using your logic, we should ban automobiles and bring back the horse and buggy. Nice try.

No, I won't piss and moan, because a machine doesn't reduce the price of labor, vote, drain public services, have a lower intelligence, higher criminal tendencies or have an alien culture. If our society becomes so capital intensive that machines can do the work, that just means more leisure time for the working classes. It won't be because we flooded America with third worlders. It will most likely be because we prohibited it.

[Adolfo Mena Gonzalez]

It's a public subway, you idiot...this is no Libertarialand...everything is socialized in this country, everything is made so that you have no choice but to ride with the gypsies begging around or even stealing you, when all you want is to quietly go to work.
Most French agree with my point. You are one of those Human rights useful idiots, you are with the globalist elites on that one.

Don't talk about something you have no idea about. Don't act like an American with me.
I agree with you, gypsies are filthy, I wouldn't want them polluting the city I live in either. When I was in Europe(most particularly France and Italy), they were an epidemic. I saw these dirty people littering the streets and harassing tourists like myself for money, I even saw them try to send their kids to pick pocket passers by. All they do is sit around all day in their own filth and collect a welfare check. Hopefully they are deported back to Romania(I fell sorry for regular Romanians though).

[Adolfo Mena Gonzalez]

When the French allow the pig cops to behave like fucking animals, they deserve the blow back riot. We have the same shit in the US, when people are shoved to the breaking point... they fucking break.


http://www.metacafe.com/watch/320686/rodney_king_beating/

"Blow back"


http://www.metacafe.com/watch/849785/l_a_riots/







Frankly, if the French are as bigoted as this, they deserve the elites shoving them around.

Those rioters were dumb animals, they trashed their own neighborhoods as a reaction to cops beating up a black man miles away, then only topped when their welfare checks came in. Thankfully, assimilated and industrious Korean immigrants showed them some lethal dicipline when these monsters tried to rob their stores

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-L5ttIHV12s