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View Full Version : What the hell happened to England!?




Vessol
07-24-2010, 04:05 PM
Studying Victorian history, England in the 19th century was not perfect but was probably the most libertarian time period in all of history.

England was the center of classical liberalism and individualism. Through it's culture it inspired American individualism.

What the hell happened to England!?

How did they go from the most classical liberal nations on the planet to one of the most collectivist nations in the Western hemisphere? How did they go from a relatively free market to one which is almost centrally planned and a massive welfare state?

low preference guy
07-24-2010, 04:07 PM
Studying Victorian history, England in the 19th century was not perfect but was probably the most libertarian time period in all of history.

England was the center of classical liberalism and individualism. Through it's culture it inspired American individualism.

What the hell happened to England!?

How did they go from the most classical liberal nations on the planet to one of the most collectivist nations in the Western hemisphere? How did they go from a relatively free market to one which is almost centrally planned and a massive welfare state?

it's quite a change. all i know is i want to stay far away from that place.

heavenlyboy34
07-24-2010, 04:08 PM
Studying Victorian history, England in the 19th century was not perfect but was probably the most libertarian time period in all of history.

England was the center of classical liberalism and individualism. Through it's culture it inspired American individualism.

What the hell happened to England!?

How did they go from the most classical liberal nations on the planet to one of the most collectivist nations in the Western hemisphere? How did they go from a relatively free market to one which is almost centrally planned and a massive welfare state?

IMHO, buddying up with the American warfare/welfare State (WWI/WWII, especially) was a big part of it. For all we know, the FED and the Bank of England are in cahoots in engineering the economic chaos we are experiencing now. (they're basically gangsters in fancy suits, you see) :eek:

Cynanthrope
07-24-2010, 04:09 PM
One factor could've been the rise and spread of Marxism throughout Europe in the late 1800s.

I'm assuming that the Great Depression could've also been a great opportunity for the statists to increase their political control over society.

WWII (& maybe WWI?) was a major justification for the nationalization of many private industries including the health care system which remains in England today and has become the 3rd? largest employer in the world.

paulim
07-24-2010, 04:12 PM
2 unnecessary wars.

johngr
07-24-2010, 04:12 PM
Look into the Fabian Society. They've had this shit planned for 100s of years. The richest people are the ones behind Communism. They hate competition.

BTW, increasingly since 1948, Britain has become in addition to more and more Communistic, a multicultural hellhole, only rivaled in that regard by France and Holland, England is a country of choice for immigrants because of her generous welfare benefits. There's probably more square miles of "no go for natives" areas than any other nation in Europe.

brenden.b
07-24-2010, 04:15 PM
The rise of Marxism and the Great Depression definitely had an effect and having a unitarian (or centralized) form of government was the vehicle that statists used to transform the United Kingdom into the mess it is today.

We should feel blessed here that we aren't as far gone as our British bretheren. Having a federal system of government with checks and balances has retarded the rise of tyranny in this country.

johngr
07-24-2010, 04:29 PM
2 unnecessary wars.

French revolution laid the groundwork.

NewFederalist
07-24-2010, 04:55 PM
What the hell happened to England!?

It was conquered by Ireland?

FrankRep
07-24-2010, 04:56 PM
How did they go from the most classical liberal nations on the planet to one of the most collectivist nations in the Western hemisphere? How did they go from a relatively free market to one which is almost centrally planned and a massive welfare state?

Some good news:

Britain Plans to Decentralize National Health Care
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/25/world/europe/25britain.html?_r=2&hp

Natalie
07-24-2010, 04:57 PM
Look into the Fabian Society. They've had this shit planned for 100s of years. The richest people are the ones behind Communism. They hate competition.

BTW, increasingly since 1948, Britain has become in addition to more and more Communistic, a multicultural hellhole, only rivaled in that regard by France and Holland, England is a country of choice for immigrants because of her generous welfare benefits. There's probably more square miles of "no go for natives" areas than any other nation in Europe.

I am a Fabian.

heavenlyboy34
07-24-2010, 05:04 PM
I am a Fabian.

:eek: That explains a lot! ;)

Lovecraftian4Paul
07-24-2010, 05:43 PM
Britain laid the groundwork for their demise when they abandoned their Empire First foreign policy and decided to get involved with continental affairs in the late 19th/early 20th century. Britain, like the US, should have stayed the hell out of WWI.

Southron
07-24-2010, 05:54 PM
The spread of Marxism that they helped clear the way for?

JeNNiF00F00
07-24-2010, 06:28 PM
2 big M's that have plagued most of Europe. Marxism and Multiculturalism.

Marenco
07-24-2010, 09:23 PM
Look no further than the Bank of England; the first central bank in the world that was established in 1694.

“The bank hath benefit of interest on all moneys which it creates out of nothing.” — William Paterson, founder of the Bank of England, 1694.

YumYum
07-24-2010, 09:28 PM
Look no further than the Bank of England; the first central bank in the world that was established in 1694.

“The bank hath benefit of interest on all moneys which it creates out of nothing.” — William Paterson, founder of the Bank of England, 1694.

Dude, you hit the nail on the head. What really brought England down was Led Zepplin.

Lord Xar
07-24-2010, 09:30 PM
Is there a way to correlate this "multi-culturalism" to collectivism and a shrinking of liberty to make way for big government/marxism/communism?

I can't imagine WHY the people of England have not rose up - or are they too fat and lazy eating from the government hand that feeds them?

michaelwise
07-24-2010, 09:36 PM
The EU writes their immigration laws among others. England's self destruction is almost complete.

YumYum
07-24-2010, 09:37 PM
Is there a way to correlate this "multi-culturalism" to collectivism and a shrinking of liberty to make way for big government/marxism/communism?

I can't imagine WHY the people of England have not rose up - or are they too fat and lazy eating from the government hand that feeds them?

That applies to Americans, also. I see a lot of obese people riding electric wheel chairs at Wal Mart and hooked up to oxygen tanks, putting ice cream and macaroni and cheese in their carts.

Humanae Libertas
07-24-2010, 09:46 PM
Last thing the U.S. wants to be is England: Godless (no offense to Atheist), unarmed, and taxed to death.

We are slowly becoming just like they are...

michaelwise
07-24-2010, 09:53 PM
The inner City of London(they should distinguish it by adding 2.0 to the name) is the financial center of the world. Take a look at this video. It explains it to you.

Click the header at the top of this video to view. Both this link and the one on my Vimeo channel are being blocked for some reason. I think there is information in it they don't want you to see.

The Calling by Maxwell Igan - Full HD Version Video by Michael - MySpace Video (http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=101444991)

Howard_Roark
07-24-2010, 10:54 PM
Studying Victorian history, England in the 19th century was not perfect but was probably the most libertarian time period in all of history.

England was the center of classical liberalism and individualism. Through it's culture it inspired American individualism.

What the hell happened to England!?

How did they go from the most classical liberal nations on the planet to one of the most collectivist nations in the Western hemisphere? How did they go from a relatively free market to one which is almost centrally planned and a massive welfare state?

What are you talking about? First of all they elected David Cameron, a torrey (conservative). Second of all, they are one of the world's great countries. Sheesh if you want to angrily point your finger theres lots of shady countries, the UK isn't one of them.

Stary Hickory
07-24-2010, 11:04 PM
One factor could've been the rise and spread of Marxism throughout Europe in the late 1800s.

I'm assuming that the Great Depression could've also been a great opportunity for the statists to increase their political control over society.

WWII (& maybe WWI?) was a major justification for the nationalization of many private industries including the health care system which remains in England today and has become the 3rd? largest employer in the world.

It's Marxism that was the issue. It's a failed ideology but it will take some time to eradicate all it's after effects. There was a huge libertarian boom in the 1700's and most of the 1800's that gave way to enlightenment and progress on a scale never before seen.

Marxism became popular once there was abundant wealth. It's real driving force is the attainment of power by forceful redistribution of wealth. It cannot create wealth it can only drain it and destroy it. I think the cumulative failures of Marxism/collectivism is starting to finally undo it all. I still believe mankind will progress and will not fall into the regressive cesspit of Marxism.

The thing is it has been defeated logically and ideologically on so many levels that the only way it continues is to keep renaming it and reinventing it. The only way mankind can prosper and live in peace is through libertarian ideas and the respect for one another on a personal basis and the willingness to cooperate voluntarily and not use force, especially government force, to oppress others for personal gain.

This is the only way mankind has ever progressed is through voluntarily cooperation, oppressive government is a hindrance to this.

Zippyjuan
07-25-2010, 12:06 AM
Victorian England was great- if you were in the upper class.

The country was transitioning from being primarily rural to more urban- 1851 was the first year where a majority of the people lived in towns or cities. 80% of the land was held by 7,000 people- mostly aristocracy- out of about 30 million by 1870.
http://www.channel4.com/history/microsites/H/history/guide19/part02.html

When the earl of Yarborough dies in 1875, his stock of cigars is sold for £850, the equivalent of 18 years' pay for the impoverished agricultural labourers on his estate.

• The successful railway contractor Thomas Brassey leaves a fortune of £3.2 million on his death in 1870.

• In 1841, manufacturing workers made up 44% of the work force, agricultural workers 22% and domestic servants 18%.

• In 1860, the average income per head of the population is £44 a year.

• In 1880, the average income of a skilled worker is £62 per year.

• Between 1860 and 1914, real wages double. The boom years are 1868-74 and 1880-96, during which real wages go up by almost 45%.

• Between 1875 and 1900, prices fall by about 40%.

• By 1860, Britain has about 2,650 cotton factories operated by 440,000 workers who together earn about £11.5 million a year.

• In 1860, the total value of the current accounts in Britain's 650 banks is about £41.5 million.

• In the 1890s, there are 300,000 miners. The same number of people work in the retail sector.

andrewh817
07-25-2010, 01:24 AM
How did they go from the most classical liberal nations on the planet to one of the most collectivist nations in the Western hemisphere? How did they go from a relatively free market to one which is almost centrally planned and a massive welfare state?

The same way the US did. Gradual increases in state power until the public sector acquires more power than the private sector. Also control over the education of the young.

cindy25
07-25-2010, 02:18 AM
WWI, which bankrupted her; and WWII which cost her the empire

people became used to high taxes, rationed items, and the individual giving way to the group.

ibaghdadi
07-25-2010, 02:25 AM
I'm late to the party, but I think everyone is missing an important point.

Everyone is taking it at face value that Victorian England was a "libertarian heaven". As Zippyjuan points out, it was the gross iniquities of this period that fueled Marxist, socialist, and communist ideologies. Marx lived in London for almost half his productive life, and in fact died there.

Remember that a libertarian society cannot exist when the majority of the population are so desperately poor that they will gladly trade their liberty for some shiny golden shackles. An easy way to figure out how libertarian a society is/was it to look at how prosperous the average person is. If libertarianism is one side of the coin, a prosperous economy is the other.

Which brings us to the most important point that seemingly everyone missed - how did these iniquities rise in the first place? It was colonialism - empire - that made a few people incredibly rich above and beyond any possibility of open competition. The colonialism/empire connection was missed by everyone.

You cannot have liberty within your borders if you follow a state policy of denying it for others beyond your borders. You either believe in it for every single human being and apply thoroughly for every person you come across - or you don't believe in it at all.

cindy25
07-25-2010, 03:54 AM
Victorian England was great- if you were in the upper class.

The country was transitioning from being primarily rural to more urban- 1851 was the first year where a majority of the people lived in towns or cities. 80% of the land was held by 7,000 people- mostly aristocracy- out of about 30 million by 1870.
http://www.channel4.com/history/microsites/H/history/guide19/part02.html

that 44 pounds was 44 gold pounds, or about 11 ounces of gold

thats about $15,000 per person, with hardly any deductions.

johngr
07-25-2010, 05:49 AM
that 44 pounds was 44 gold pounds, or about 11 ounces of gold

thats about $15,000 per person, with hardly any deductions.

Whenever I travel to England, go into a shop or bank and and the salesman or teller says, "that'll be 10 pounds", I always make it a point to say, "10 pounds of what?"

Austrian Econ Disciple
07-25-2010, 06:14 AM
They weren't eternally vigilant. /snickers (This seems to be a most unfortunate recurring pattern)

johngr
07-25-2010, 06:42 AM
They weren't eternally vigilant. /snickers (This seems to be a most unfortunate recurring pattern)

She was asking for it by because she was wearing a short dress. After repeated rapes, she's got Stockholm Syndrome and forgives the rapist and adopts his pov.

Perhaps focusing on being outraged at the perps' actions and how to bring them to justice would be more useful just now than focusing on the fault of the victim.

Austrian Econ Disciple
07-25-2010, 06:52 AM
She was asking for it by because she was wearing a short dress. After repeated rapes, she's got Stockholm Syndrome and forgives the rapist and adopts his pov.

Perhaps being angry at the perps would be useful than focusing on the fault of the victim.

What I am saying is it is impossible for a majority, or even a large minority to ever stay vigilant forever. You don't need to rely on other people in a market society because you have choices, and aren't forced to get others to go along with your views. You completely missed the point.

jmdrake
07-25-2010, 07:13 AM
Studying Victorian history, England in the 19th century was not perfect but was probably the most libertarian time period in all of history.

England was the center of classical liberalism and individualism. Through it's culture it inspired American individualism.

What the hell happened to England!?

How did they go from the most classical liberal nations on the planet to one of the most collectivist nations in the Western hemisphere? How did they go from a relatively free market to one which is almost centrally planned and a massive welfare state?

Ironic considering most see the Victorian era in terms of "sexual repression".

tjeffersonsghost
07-25-2010, 08:10 AM
It was the bankers of the early 20th century.

teamrican1
07-25-2010, 08:17 AM
Size has a lot to do with it. England is a relatively small country with a powerful government. While they still had their far flung Empire, the government had it's hands full and couldn't focus their repression on a small, geographically concentrated area. This is a universal condition. Liberty flourishes only when you either weaken government itself or diffuse it by extending it's jurisdiction past the point which it can reasonably control. That's why China is so free. They have many of the same authoritarian laws we do, but they don't have the means to enforce them.

FrankRep
07-25-2010, 08:20 AM
The Rothschild Banking Family happened to England.


YouTube - The Rothschilds Exposed 1/3 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8F4IGwuKdUQ)

YouTube - The Rothschilds Exposed 2/3 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2Yjoi2_5pw)

YouTube - The Rothschilds Exposed 3/3 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47WM2BhklmM&feature=related)

lynnf
07-25-2010, 12:00 PM
here's a factor in it...... they got no Constitution. yeah look at this stuff saying they have an unwritten Constitution, but an unwritten one is not one at all. so they can be bamboozled to the max.

at least we can point to ours and say "what you are doing is not right". the Brits can't do that as well as we can.

can't defend what you can't see.



http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/british_constitution1.htm

fluff piece on the "unwritten? British Constitution:

A constitution is a set of laws on how a country is governed. The British Constitution is unwritten in one single document, unlike the constitution in America or the proposed European Constitution, and as such, is referred to as an uncodified constitution in the sense that there is no single document that can be classed as Britain's constitution. The British Constitution can be found in a variety of documents. Supporters of our constitution believe that the current way allows for flexibility and change to occur without too many problems. Those who want a written constitution believe that it should be codified so that the public as a whole has access to it – as opposed to just constitutional experts who know where to look and how to interpret it.

Amendments to Britain’s unwritten constitution are made the same way – by a simply majority support in both Houses of Parliament to be followed by the Royal Assent.

The British Constitution comes from a variety of sources. The main ones are:
Statutes such as the Magna Carta of 1215 and the Act of Settlement of 1701.
Laws and Customs of Parliament; political conventions
Case law; constitutional matters decided in a court of law
Constitutional experts who have written on the subject such as Walter Bagehot and A.V Dicey.

There are two basic principles to the British Constitution:
The Rule of Law The Supremacy of Parliament

teamrican1
07-25-2010, 01:13 PM
here's a factor in it...... they got no Constitution. yeah look at this stuff saying they have an unwritten Constitution, but an unwritten one is not one at all. so they can be bamboozled to the max.

at least we can point to ours and say "what you are doing is not right". the Brits can't do that as well as we can.

can't defend what you can't see.

I don't really think that has anything to do with it. Nothing magical happens when you write something down. The Government has subverted our written Constitution just as surely as their counterparts in England have subverted their unwritten one. The unwritten rules of the National Hockey League are probably better enforced than the written ones. Written or not written makes no difference.

Howard_Roark
07-25-2010, 01:51 PM
1 Hong Kong 89.7 -0.3
2 Singapore 86.1 -1.0
3 Australia 82.6 0.0
4 New Zealand 82.1 0.1
5 Ireland 81.3 -0.9
6 Switzerland 81.1 1.7
7 Canada 80.4 -0.1
8 United States 78.0 -2.7
9 Denmark 77.9 -1.7
10 Chile 77.2 -1.1
11 United Kingdom

This is a listing of the Index of Economic Freedom. Notice a pattern? All the bolded countries were terretories of the British Empire. Seriously, the British Empire practically created capitalism. I am amazed at how misguided conservatives are in general in terms of thinking that France, Canada and England etc. are bad.

low preference guy
07-25-2010, 01:52 PM
1 Hong Kong 89.7 -0.3
2 Singapore 86.1 -1.0
3 Australia 82.6 0.0
4 New Zealand 82.1 0.1
5 Ireland 81.3 -0.9
6 Switzerland 81.1 1.7
7 Canada 80.4 -0.1
8 United States 78.0 -2.7
9 Denmark 77.9 -1.7
10 Chile 77.2 -1.1
11 United Kingdom

This is a listing of the Index of Economic Freedom. Notice a pattern? All the bolded countries were terretories of the British Empire. Seriously, the British Empire practically created capitalism. I am amazed at how misguided conservatives are in general in terms of thinking that France, Canada and England etc. are bad.

Ireland shouldn't be bold?

libertarian4321
07-25-2010, 01:55 PM
1 Hong Kong 89.7 -0.3
2 Singapore 86.1 -1.0
3 Australia 82.6 0.0
4 New Zealand 82.1 0.1
5 Ireland 81.3 -0.9
6 Switzerland 81.1 1.7
7 Canada 80.4 -0.1
8 United States 78.0 -2.7
9 Denmark 77.9 -1.7
10 Chile 77.2 -1.1
11 United Kingdom

This is a listing of the Index of Economic Freedom. Notice a pattern? All the bolded countries were terretories of the British Empire. Seriously, the British Empire practically created capitalism. I am amazed at how misguided conservatives are in general in terms of thinking that France, Canada and England etc. are bad.

As were the USA and Ireland.

Howard_Roark
07-25-2010, 02:25 PM
As were the USA and Ireland.

1 Hong Kong 89.7 -0.3
2 Singapore 86.1 -1.0
3 Australia 82.6 0.0
4 New Zealand 82.1 0.1
5 Ireland 81.3 -0.9
6 Switzerland 81.1 1.7
7 Canada 80.4 -0.1
8 United States 78.0 -2.7
9 Denmark 77.9 -1.7
10 Chile 77.2 -1.1
11 United Kingdom


Yes I bolded Ireland now, it was part of the British Empire. That is very impressive, a sweep of the top 5 spots on the Index of Economic Freedom, not to mention India and South Africa were also part of it.

The Thirteen Colonies were obviously part of the British Empire, but the United States of America which was created out of the Revolutionary War wasn't though it is why we are all speaking English.

I highly recommend watching this for more of a background on the US-British relationship.

YouTube - Obama Holds Press Conference With David Cameron (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fp7_FflsEvE)