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FrankRep
07-23-2010, 11:20 AM
John Stossel - Who should get to be an American

YouTube - John Stossel - Who should get to be an American - Part 1 of 6 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-AO9dR1t5g)


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Although America is a welcoming, liberty-loving land quite conscious of its unique role as the refuge of the oppressed and the home of opportunity for those willing to work hard, every nation has not only the right but also the duty to regulate its borders and the people who come cross those borders. by Bruce Walker


Libertarian Immigration? (http://www.thenewamerican.com/index.php/usnews/immigration/4099-libertarian-immigration)


Bruce Walker | The New American (http://www.thenewamerican.com/)
Thursday, 22 July 2010


John Stossel believes in free markets. The best result, in almost any situation, is individual liberty — government should stay out of the business of regulating human interactions. There is no doubt that in most cases we have far too much government and far too little freedom of choice. Does that apply to national borders as well? Are immigration laws another form of government regulation of free choices? Stossel is not sure.

America is one of those nations that, historicaly, has been a land of immigrants. Italians, Germans, Chinese, European Jews, Irish, Mexicans, Poles, and many other peoples have come here in search of freedom. America has welcomed these immigrants, provided only that they obey the laws of our nation and — if they seek more than temporary residence here — become Americans. One of the miracles of our nation is the tens of millions of people from around the world have done just that: they have given up allegiance to the old country and become, instead, new citizens of a new land.

Although America is a welcoming, liberty-loving land quite conscious of its unique role as the refuge of the oppressed and the home of opportunity for those willing to work hard, every nation has not only the right but also the duty to regulate its borders and the people who come cross those borders. The kindest neighbors ask, at least, that you knock and ask permission before coming into their home. America, a kind neighbor, must do no less.

Those coming to America today, illegally — but sometimes even legally — too often reject the ideals of our nation. Their mindset towards America is rather like President Obama's: The misery of the rest of the world is because of the freedom and prosperity of America, a situation which they wish to change. Hispanic groups like La Raza want to return the border states of Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, and California back to Mexico — a corrupt nation that millions of Mexicans want to leave to find a happier life in America.

The elements of successful immigration to America have long been simple and reasonable. English is our language and our nation has expected that all citizens use English, at least primarily. Immigrants were supposed to support themselves and their families. Often this meant several years of menial work with most family members working, but again and again this has proven to be a route to prosperity for the immigrants and prosperity for America. Immigrants must be on good conduct, which means not sneaking into the country and not breaking our laws when they are here.

The libertarian position on immigration, which Stossel professes befuddles him, is really not complex. The liberty which is the blessing of America has always been qualified as “ordered liberty.” America was always intended by our Founding Fathers as a land of few laws, but it was never intended as a land of no laws — or laws which could be flagrantly violated. Is America a land of immigrants who came here poor and unfree and who became affluent and free American citizens? Of course. But always within the structures of America — its law, its language, its values. Enforcing immigration laws is not an issue of liberty versus oppression. It is simply government doing one of the few duties that it has to its citizens.


SOURCE:
http://www.thenewamerican.com/index.php/usnews/immigration/4099-libertarian-immigration

FrankRep
07-23-2010, 11:22 AM
JOHN STOSSEL: Immigrants -- Good or Bad? (http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2010/07/21/john-stossel-immigration-libertarian-illegal-arizona-border-california-welfare/)


John Stossel | Fox News
Published July 21, 2010


I'm confused about immigration.

We libertarians believe in free trade. That includes trade in labor, too. New people bring us not just labor, but also good new ideas.

Open immigration during America's first hundred years helped make America rich.

Open immigration is dangerous today, however, because some immigrants want to murder us. And now that America is a welfare state, some want to come here just to freeload.

That great champion of freedom economist Milton Friedman said Mexican immigration is a good thing -- but only so long as it's illegal. "Why? Because as long as it's illegal for people to come, they don't qualify for welfare and Social Security. So they migrate to jobs."

But closing our eyes to illegal immigration cannot be good policy. So what should Americans do?

I sat down with Heather MacDonald of the conservative Manhattan Institute, author of "The Immigration Solution," and Jason Riley of The Wall Street Journal's editorial board, author of "Let Them In." I respect them both. But they radically disagree on immigration policy.

"The case for open borders is a case for letting the law of supply and demand, the free market, determine the level of immigration," Riley said. "Right now, that determination is being made by politicians and public policy makers. ... And like all exercises in Soviet-style central planning, it's been a complete disaster. We have thriving markets in document fraud ... and 12 million-plus illegal aliens. ... (W)e would do better to move to a system that allowed the free market to determine the level of immigration. And that's the case for open borders." Riley proposes a guest-worker program. "That is the way to reduce illegal immigration."

Heather MacDonald retorts:



"A country is not a firm. And it is absolutely the prerogative of a nation and its people to decide its immigration policy. ... We should have an immigration policy that accentuates our natural economic advantage in the 21st century, which is as a high-tech, high-science economy. ... (T)he overwhelming number of immigrants that are coming in -- largely illegally -- are extremely low skilled."


MacDonald worries that "we're facing, for the first time in this country's history ... the first decrease in national literacy and numeracy ... . "

She wants to copy Australia's and Canada's policy: "high skills, English language and education....We should be looking out for our own economic self-interest." Riley disagreed with MacDonald's claim that Mexican immigrants don't fit America's modern economy.



"(T)oday's immigrants coming here are not different in terms of their behavior patterns, in terms of their assimilation levels. They are simply newer."


"Immigrants increase crime!" is another charge hurled at illegals, but the data don't bear that out. There has been a surge in immigration over recent years, but crime has been dropping. Crime has dropped in the border areas of Arizona and California, too.

MacDonald said crime was high during immigration surges in the 1970s and '80s, and attributed the recent drop to higher incarceration rates. But Riley noted:



"Incarceration reports from the Justice Department ... show that the native-born are five times more likely than the immigrant population to be arrested and incarcerated ..."


But if today's illegals are not eligible for welfare, less likely to commit crimes and eager to work, why are people in the border states so ticked off?

"Why wouldn't they be?" Riley said. "It's chaos down there. There's trespassing. There are people breaking the law. We're a nation of laws. It's out of control. The question is how to fix it. And I don't think sealing off the border is the best way to fix it. I think regulating the flow is the best way to fix it."

It would be easier to "regulate the flow" if America made it easier for people to work here legally. State Department data show that a British Ph.D. in bioengineering must wait about six months to get a Green Card. A South African computer programmer, six years. An Indian computer programmer, 35 years.

A Mexican with a high school diploma must wait a theoretical 131 years! No wonder people sneak into America.

Black markets make problems worse. America should let more people come here legally.


SOURCE:
http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2010/07/21/john-stossel-immigration-libertarian-illegal-arizona-border-california-welfare/

Sentient Void
07-23-2010, 01:34 PM
I just finished watching yesterday's episode of 'Stossel'...

I've always been on the fence (considering our current system)... no pun intended. Seriously - that pun was NOT intended! lol

But I must say - this episode of 'Stossel' has officially pushed me over the edge to support open borders and a legitimate free market in immigration (lots of VERY good points made, especially his closing statement) - but only after we reform, with the intent to abolish, the welfare state, along with the legalization of drugs. Until then, keep illegal immigration illegal, for the simple purpose to make sure people can't easily jump on welfare in the meantime.

Apart from it being immoral (on the basis of the right to life and liberty), but it's also impractical. In the end, it comes down to this - Prohibition. DOES. NOT. WORK.

On *anything*.

Whether you're talking about drugs, prostitution, gambling, even immigration - if you prohibit something that has a legitimate demand - one way or another, it WILL. BE. MET. Alcohol prohibition PROVES that prohibition doesn't work. As does the war on drugs. All you do is drive the market underground, the demand gets met anyways, usually with some result of reduced quality and a major increase in crime and violence.

Freedom and liberty are *always* the best solutions - to everything.

lester1/2jr
07-23-2010, 01:47 PM
even within austrian economics there is alot of rancor on this debate. the hoppe side is more like heather mcdonalds and others more like the other guy

NewFederalist
07-23-2010, 02:06 PM
I saw the episode, too. I didn't think it was one of his best. If anything it put me on the fence. I WANT to believe the case for open borders but the show did nothing to convince me. I still want to see real data on how much undocumented people truly cost taxpayers. The numbers are all over the map and it seems each side has "credible" numbers to back up their point of view. Confusing is an understatement!