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FrankRep
07-22-2010, 07:54 AM
Although America is a welcoming, liberty-loving land quite conscious of its unique role as the refuge of the oppressed and the home of opportunity for those willing to work hard, every nation has not only the right but also the duty to regulate its borders and the people who come cross those borders. by Bruce Walker


Libertarian Immigration? (http://www.thenewamerican.com/index.php/usnews/immigration/4099-libertarian-immigration)


Bruce Walker | The New American (http://www.thenewamerican.com/)
Thursday, 22 July 2010


John Stossel believes in free markets. The best result, in almost any situation, is individual liberty — government should stay out of the business of regulating human interactions. There is no doubt that in most cases we have far too much government and far too little freedom of choice. Does that apply to national borders as well? Are immigration laws another form of government regulation of free choices? Stossel is not sure.

America is one of those nations that, historicaly, has been a land of immigrants. Italians, Germans, Chinese, European Jews, Irish, Mexicans, Poles, and many other peoples have come here in search of freedom. America has welcomed these immigrants, provided only that they obey the laws of our nation and — if they seek more than temporary residence here — become Americans. One of the miracles of our nation is the tens of millions of people from around the world have done just that: they have given up allegiance to the old country and become, instead, new citizens of a new land.

Although America is a welcoming, liberty-loving land quite conscious of its unique role as the refuge of the oppressed and the home of opportunity for those willing to work hard, every nation has not only the right but also the duty to regulate its borders and the people who come cross those borders. The kindest neighbors ask, at least, that you knock and ask permission before coming into their home. America, a kind neighbor, must do no less.

Those coming to America today, illegally — but sometimes even legally — too often reject the ideals of our nation. Their mindset towards America is rather like President Obama's: The misery of the rest of the world is because of the freedom and prosperity of America, a situation which they wish to change. Hispanic groups like La Raza want to return the border states of Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, and California back to Mexico — a corrupt nation that millions of Mexicans want to leave to find a happier life in America.

The elements of successful immigration to America have long been simple and reasonable. English is our language and our nation has expected that all citizens use English, at least primarily. Immigrants were supposed to support themselves and their families. Often this meant several years of menial work with most family members working, but again and again this has proven to be a route to prosperity for the immigrants and prosperity for America. Immigrants must be on good conduct, which means not sneaking into the country and not breaking our laws when they are here.

The libertarian position on immigration, which Stossel professes befuddles him, is really not complex. The liberty which is the blessing of America has always been qualified as “ordered liberty.” America was always intended by our Founding Fathers as a land of few laws, but it was never intended as a land of no laws — or laws which could be flagrantly violated. Is America a land of immigrants who came here poor and unfree and who became affluent and free American citizens? Of course. But always within the structures of America — its law, its language, its values. Enforcing immigration laws is not an issue of liberty versus oppression. It is simply government doing one of the few duties that it has to its citizens.


SOURCE:
http://www.thenewamerican.com/index.php/usnews/immigration/4099-libertarian-immigration

jmdrake
07-22-2010, 08:34 AM
The John Stossel article itself.

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2010/07/21/john-stossel-immigration-libertarian-illegal-arizona-border-california-welfare/

I'm confused about immigration.

We libertarians believe in free trade. That includes trade in labor, too. New people bring us not just labor, but also good new ideas.

Open immigration during America's first hundred years helped make America rich.

Open immigration is dangerous today, however, because some immigrants want to murder us. And now that America is a welfare state, some want to come here just to freeload.

That great champion of freedom economist Milton Friedman said Mexican immigration is a good thing -- but only so long as it's illegal. "Why? Because as long as it's illegal for people to come, they don't qualify for welfare and Social Security. So they migrate to jobs."

But closing our eyes to illegal immigration cannot be good policy. So what should Americans do?

I sat down with Heather MacDonald of the conservative Manhattan Institute, author of "The Immigration Solution," and Jason Riley of The Wall Street Journal's editorial board, author of "Let Them In." I respect them both. But they radically disagree on immigration policy.

"The case for open borders is a case for letting the law of supply and demand, the free market, determine the level of immigration," Riley said. "Right now, that determination is being made by politicians and public policy makers. ... And like all exercises in Soviet-style central planning, it's been a complete disaster. We have thriving markets in document fraud ... and 12 million-plus illegal aliens. ... (W)e would do better to move to a system that allowed the free market to determine the level of immigration. And that's the case for open borders." Riley proposes a guest-worker program. "That is the way to reduce illegal immigration."

Heather MacDonald retorts:

"A country is not a firm. And it is absolutely the prerogative of a nation and its people to decide its immigration policy. ... We should have an immigration policy that accentuates our natural economic advantage in the 21st century, which is as a high-tech, high-science economy. ... (T)he overwhelming number of immigrants that are coming in -- largely illegally -- are extremely low skilled."

MacDonald worries that "we're facing, for the first time in this country's history ... the first decrease in national literacy and numeracy ... . "

She wants to copy Australia's and Canada's policy: "high skills, English language and education....We should be looking out for our own economic self-interest." Riley disagreed with MacDonald's claim that Mexican immigrants don't fit America's modern economy.

"(T)oday's immigrants coming here are not different in terms of their behavior patterns, in terms of their assimilation levels. They are simply newer."

"Immigrants increase crime!" is another charge hurled at illegals, but the data don't bear that out. There has been a surge in immigration over recent years, but crime has been dropping. Crime has dropped in the border areas of Arizona and California, too.

MacDonald said crime was high during immigration surges in the 1970s and '80s, and attributed the recent drop to higher incarceration rates. But Riley noted:

"Incarceration reports from the Justice Department ... show that the native-born are five times more likely than the immigrant population to be arrested and incarcerated ..."

But if today's illegals are not eligible for welfare, less likely to commit crimes and eager to work, why are people in the border states so ticked off?

"Why wouldn't they be?" Riley said. "It's chaos down there. There's trespassing. There are people breaking the law. We're a nation of laws. It's out of control. The question is how to fix it. And I don't think sealing off the border is the best way to fix it. I think regulating the flow is the best way to fix it."

It would be easier to "regulate the flow" if America made it easier for people to work here legally. State Department data show that a British Ph.D. in bioengineering must wait about six months to get a Green Card. A South African computer programmer, six years. An Indian computer programmer, 35 years.

A Mexican with a high school diploma must wait a theoretical 131 years! No wonder people sneak into America.

Black markets make problems worse. America should let more people come here legally.

jmdrake
07-23-2010, 11:16 AM
Interesting. With all of the recent interest in immigration here this thread has been ignored.

Live_Free_Or_Die
07-23-2010, 11:23 AM
Interesting. With all of the recent interest in immigration here this thread has been ignored.

What are you expecting people to say about? I love reading the word illegal?

jmdrake
07-23-2010, 11:39 AM
What are you expecting people to say about? I love reading the word illegal?

LOL. Just making a note. Considering how much some people here love John Stossel and considering that he's conflicted on the issue I thought it would be fruit for discussion. Maybe you don't see it that way. Cool.

ClayTrainor
07-23-2010, 11:44 AM
LOL. Just making a note. Considering how much some people here love John Stossel and considering that he's conflicted on the issue I thought it would be fruit for discussion. Maybe you don't see it that way. Cool.
Over saturation.

When guys like FrankRep insist upon creating like 5+ threads a day on immigration, people start getting a bit tired of the topic, and some of the stories will start being more ignored...

There's nothing that could be discussed in this thread that hasn't been discussed dozens of times in the multiple other threads...

jmdrake
07-23-2010, 11:47 AM
Over saturation.

When guys like FrankRep insist upon creating like 5+ threads a day on immigration, people start getting a bit tired of the topic, and some of the stories will start being more ignored...

Fair enough. But just the other day you were calling out the "government is the solution" people for not commenting in the BuddyRey thread. Over saturation cuts both way. :D

ClayTrainor
07-23-2010, 11:48 AM
Fair enough. But just the other day you were calling out the "government is the solution" people for not commenting in the BuddyRey thread. Over saturation cuts both way. :D

How many threads per day does BuddyRey start on the topic?

ravedown
07-23-2010, 11:50 AM
personally im glad for the black market-stossel says black markets are a problem. he and i disagree here but on most topics-i think he does a fine job. immigration is such a mess and so easy for those in power to exploit, it's a problem that benefits the decision makers and rule breakers. i'd like to see states make their own immigration rules...mix it up already.

jmdrake
07-23-2010, 12:05 PM
How many threads per day does BuddyRey start on the topic?

Irrelevant. People still might have been weary over the topic or just missed the thread altogether. That's what I did before you pointed it out in another thread. I read it and responded.

Anyway, I think the Stossel article sums up the issue well. While there are genuine concerns with having a government enforce borders, there are also genuine concerns with open borders. It's simply not a cut and dry issue.

ClayTrainor
07-23-2010, 12:17 PM
Irrelevant.

It's actually completely relevant to the point I was making, but thanks for your opinion. FrankRep saturates this board on a daily basis with immigration threads with articles linking to other sites... he makes it clear that he is pushing an agenda, so it's not unlikely for some of those threads to just get ignored for that very reason. BuddyRey's thread on the other hand was completely unique and personal.

Edit: BTW, Here's the thread for anyone interested...

I'd Like to Share a Personal (and True) Immigration Story With Everybody...
(http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=253855&highlight=immigration)


Anyway, I think the Stossel article sums up the issue well. While there are genuine concerns with having a government enforce borders, there are also genuine concerns with open borders. It's simply not a cut and dry issue.

Actually it is a cut and dry issue. The root of the problem is the welfare state, the War on Drugs, and the FED. Focusing on anything else is scapegoating, and is especially counter-productive when you think the government is capable of solving the problem for you.

"Inflationism and corporatism engenders protectionism and trade wars. It prompts scapegoating: blaming foreigners, illegal immigrants, ethnic minorities, and too often freedom itself for the predictable events and suffering that result." - Ron Paul (Feb. 2009)

YouTube - Feb 25, 2009 Floor Speech - End the Fed (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1wpEoZufr0)

Anyways, I'm not going to continue responding in this thread, so enjoy the last word as I know you do. :)

jmdrake
07-23-2010, 12:29 PM
It's actually completely relevant to the point I was making, but thanks for your opinion. FrankRep saturates this board on a daily basis with immigration threads with articles linking to other sites... he makes it clear that he is pushing an agenda, so it's not unlikely for some of those threads to just get ignored for whatever reason. BuddyRey's thread on the other hand was completely unique and personal.


The point I'm making, which you can't see for some reason, is that just like there may be various reasons why some people didn't initially post in this thread, there area reasons why people post in BuddyRey's thread apart from the reason you were attempting to imply.



Actually it is a cut and dry issue. The root of the problem is the welfare state, the War on Drugs, and the FED. Focusing on anything else is scapegoating, and is especially counter-productive when you think the government is capable of solving the problem for you.


If someone has HIV induced pneumonia, you have to treat both the pneumonia and the HIV. Dealing with the pneumonia is not "scapegoating". The same is true for immigration and other issues. I'm all for dealing with the root problem. I would prefer dealing with the root problems. NAFTA for instance is a big part of the problem. (And NAFTA is a problem because of other root problems like farm subsidies). What I see coming from the (some) on the "open borders" side isn't "Let's concentrate on the root problems". It's "Let's pretend these root problems won't be made worse by immigration. Let's call people who want to work on the root problems exclusively 'selfish' and convince everybody that having borders at all is more of a problem then its worth. In fact if immigration bankrupts the country that's good because the welfare state will collapse too." I simply disagree.



Anyways, I'm not going to continue responding in this thread, so enjoy the last word as I know you do. :)

Right. If you don't see the other side responding in a particular thread you call them out. If they respond its "you want the last word". Damned if you do, damned if you don't.