Sentient Void
07-13-2010, 05:13 PM
In response to a Facebook Link at fireDogLake titled: "little late to the party, but nonetheless..." posted in regards to the Nader/Napolitano interview on his book, 'Lies the Government Told You'.
http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2010/07/13/right-wing-finally-talking-about-rule-of-law/
Bob Alberti: Yes, but WHY is it always up to the Right to set the agenda, and forward the discussions. Where the heck is the Left? I mean, yes, the Right owns our entire communications infrastructure, but still...
2 hours ago · Like · 4 people
· Flag
Me: Napolitano is *the man*.
understand, though - Napolitano isn't 'right-wing', whatever that means. He's a STAUNCH libertarian.
about an hour ago · Like ·
John Emerson: Libertarians are mostly right-wing.
about an hour ago · Like · Flag
Me: Wrong. You need to get out of the false right-wing vs left-wing dichotomy. It's just not that simple to classify someone on a one-dimensional scale. It's at *least* two-dimensional. You're only shooting yourselves in the foot when you perceive libertarians as 'right-wing' because it creates an automatic response to dislike them, when there's actually a *lot* that is agreed on.
True libertarians (like Napolitano) disagree on a LOT with your 'typical right-winger', especially neocons.
about an hour ago · Like ·
Tom Fleischman: Libertarians are Republicans who like to smoke dope and get laid.
They're not right or left, they're just selfish and greedy.
about an hour ago · Like · 1 person
· Flag
Bob Alberti: Selfish and greedy sounds like the definition of Right Wing to me.
about an hour ago · Like · Flag
Me: Wow, that was an extremely ignorant categorization of libertarians.
Interesting, considering I'm a libertarian who doesn't smoke dope nor do I get laid by anyone other than my girlfriend.
Are 'progressives' even more 'selfish and greedy' than libertarians because they want everyone elses money, too?
If you want to play the logical fallacy game - it can go round and round, buddy. I'd rather avoid it and have an intellectual discussion - that is, if you can manage.
about an hour ago · Like ·
Janice Anderson: @Me...what is your problem? I mean being a libertarian and all?
Your 'party' makes no sense.
Your the fend for yourselves crowd
about an hour ago · Like · 1 person
· Flag
Donna Polster: Wow, progressives want everyone else's money? Funny, that's how I'd characterize libertarians, perpetually making it easier for the rich to steal everyone else's money.
about an hour ago · Like · Flag
Wanda Fayrene: I'm with both Donna and Janice here - I just read a lengthy article by a very well known libertarian and it backs what they've said - AND, Steve, you are telling someone not to categorize and what did you do when you called progressives selfish and greedy? As a progressive, we want people to be taken care of, for compassion to be a reason for our lives, not the mighty $$$$$$$ like most repubs AND libertarians.
about an hour ago · Like · Flag
Richard A. Waters: I thought smoking dope and getting laid was cross party lines. The blame game goes nowhere as we are all guilty of one thing or another.
about an hour ago · Like · Flag
Me: Firstly, I'm not a Libertarian, I'm a libertarian. I'm a registered independent, thank you very much.
We're the crowd who believe that radical christian fundamentalists have about as much right to impose their will on us and tell us how we can run our lives about as much as those who wish to take our money and property and give it to others. That is, *NONE*.
We're the crowd who believe it's wrong to impose your will, whatever it is, on *anyone*, down the barrel of a gun or whatever other means. We believe that civil and fiscal liberties are inextricably intertwined. We believe in equality through our differences, not equality through imposing 'sameness' as much as possible. We believe in the idea that 'My freedom extends to where yours begins', and that freedom to self-govern is not only the most moral solution, but the most practical and offers the greatest rise in prosperity and standard of living to everyone, across all races, creeds and social classes.
Donna, libertarian philosophy believes it's wrong to steal anything, period. I don't see how the rich could possibly steal everyone's money in a libertarian society - as this is against all principles libertarians believe in. However, in a corporatist big govt regulatory capture system like we have now - this is possible.
"This question of legal plunder must be settled once and for all, and there are only three ways to settle it:
The few plunder the many.
Everybody plunders everybody.
Nobody plunders anybody.
We must make our choice among limited plunder, universal plunder, and no plunder. The law can follow only one of these three." - Frederic Bastiat
Libertarians are in the third group. Which group are you in?
about an hour ago · Like ·
Me: Wanda, I was making a point. I merely took what a previous commenter said to me about libertarians and used his same logic to turn it around on him to show how absurd it was.
Libertarians want people to be taken care of as well, we just look at history and economics and show that it can't be done by forcing people to do it. It's immoral, and extremely inefficient. We believe in charity and productivity (which contributes to a higher standard of living and quality of life for all) - and when you have a prosperous people, you have that much more charity.
In the end, you can't claim the moral highground of wanting to 'take care of people' while holding a gun to their heads. It doesn't matter whether you're a criminal, a large majority, or the government. It's wrong, period.
This is what it boils down to. Libertarians don't believe you can/should give any other individual any rights that you yourself do not have. Things such as theft, slavery and murder are wrong, period. It's safe to say that the *vast* majority of people, whether libertarian, republican, progressive, centrist, etc actually live their lives by libertarian principles. You don't try to impose your will directly on others. You don't steal from people, try to enslave them, or kill them or threaten to kill them merely because they want to engage in an activity you disapprove of and they reject your authority over their lives. But for some reason, when it comes to 'the state' (which is nothing but an abstraction anyways, the state is just a group of individuals), there is a logical disconnect.
Am I saying we should entirely abolish the government and any/all roles it has in our lives? No - but what I am saying is that we should work to maximize freedom and limit government, as much as possible.
53 minutes ago · Like ·
Bradford Jefferson: Libertarians are just tarted up plutocrats.
43 minutes ago · Like · 1 person
· Flag
Me: Bradford, your statement is not backed up by any precedent, whatsoever.
Corporatism, resulting through big govt like we have now, on the other hand...
29 minutes ago · Like · Dislike
I've joined/Liked some progressive facebook groups to comment and sew seeds of librty and dissent into some progressives. I don't expect to convert them all, or even most - but to at least get a number of them thinking.
I think it may be a good idea for many of us libertarians to join such groups to encourage actual debate and conversation on the issues. not only does it help us in spreading our propaganda and the truth, morality and logic of freedom and liberty, but also to help keep our debating skills sharp. Know what I mean?
Also, as everyone here knows, I do actually want to eventually completely abolish the government - but one step at a time, know what I mean? ;)
Thoughts?
http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2010/07/13/right-wing-finally-talking-about-rule-of-law/
Bob Alberti: Yes, but WHY is it always up to the Right to set the agenda, and forward the discussions. Where the heck is the Left? I mean, yes, the Right owns our entire communications infrastructure, but still...
2 hours ago · Like · 4 people
· Flag
Me: Napolitano is *the man*.
understand, though - Napolitano isn't 'right-wing', whatever that means. He's a STAUNCH libertarian.
about an hour ago · Like ·
John Emerson: Libertarians are mostly right-wing.
about an hour ago · Like · Flag
Me: Wrong. You need to get out of the false right-wing vs left-wing dichotomy. It's just not that simple to classify someone on a one-dimensional scale. It's at *least* two-dimensional. You're only shooting yourselves in the foot when you perceive libertarians as 'right-wing' because it creates an automatic response to dislike them, when there's actually a *lot* that is agreed on.
True libertarians (like Napolitano) disagree on a LOT with your 'typical right-winger', especially neocons.
about an hour ago · Like ·
Tom Fleischman: Libertarians are Republicans who like to smoke dope and get laid.
They're not right or left, they're just selfish and greedy.
about an hour ago · Like · 1 person
· Flag
Bob Alberti: Selfish and greedy sounds like the definition of Right Wing to me.
about an hour ago · Like · Flag
Me: Wow, that was an extremely ignorant categorization of libertarians.
Interesting, considering I'm a libertarian who doesn't smoke dope nor do I get laid by anyone other than my girlfriend.
Are 'progressives' even more 'selfish and greedy' than libertarians because they want everyone elses money, too?
If you want to play the logical fallacy game - it can go round and round, buddy. I'd rather avoid it and have an intellectual discussion - that is, if you can manage.
about an hour ago · Like ·
Janice Anderson: @Me...what is your problem? I mean being a libertarian and all?
Your 'party' makes no sense.
Your the fend for yourselves crowd
about an hour ago · Like · 1 person
· Flag
Donna Polster: Wow, progressives want everyone else's money? Funny, that's how I'd characterize libertarians, perpetually making it easier for the rich to steal everyone else's money.
about an hour ago · Like · Flag
Wanda Fayrene: I'm with both Donna and Janice here - I just read a lengthy article by a very well known libertarian and it backs what they've said - AND, Steve, you are telling someone not to categorize and what did you do when you called progressives selfish and greedy? As a progressive, we want people to be taken care of, for compassion to be a reason for our lives, not the mighty $$$$$$$ like most repubs AND libertarians.
about an hour ago · Like · Flag
Richard A. Waters: I thought smoking dope and getting laid was cross party lines. The blame game goes nowhere as we are all guilty of one thing or another.
about an hour ago · Like · Flag
Me: Firstly, I'm not a Libertarian, I'm a libertarian. I'm a registered independent, thank you very much.
We're the crowd who believe that radical christian fundamentalists have about as much right to impose their will on us and tell us how we can run our lives about as much as those who wish to take our money and property and give it to others. That is, *NONE*.
We're the crowd who believe it's wrong to impose your will, whatever it is, on *anyone*, down the barrel of a gun or whatever other means. We believe that civil and fiscal liberties are inextricably intertwined. We believe in equality through our differences, not equality through imposing 'sameness' as much as possible. We believe in the idea that 'My freedom extends to where yours begins', and that freedom to self-govern is not only the most moral solution, but the most practical and offers the greatest rise in prosperity and standard of living to everyone, across all races, creeds and social classes.
Donna, libertarian philosophy believes it's wrong to steal anything, period. I don't see how the rich could possibly steal everyone's money in a libertarian society - as this is against all principles libertarians believe in. However, in a corporatist big govt regulatory capture system like we have now - this is possible.
"This question of legal plunder must be settled once and for all, and there are only three ways to settle it:
The few plunder the many.
Everybody plunders everybody.
Nobody plunders anybody.
We must make our choice among limited plunder, universal plunder, and no plunder. The law can follow only one of these three." - Frederic Bastiat
Libertarians are in the third group. Which group are you in?
about an hour ago · Like ·
Me: Wanda, I was making a point. I merely took what a previous commenter said to me about libertarians and used his same logic to turn it around on him to show how absurd it was.
Libertarians want people to be taken care of as well, we just look at history and economics and show that it can't be done by forcing people to do it. It's immoral, and extremely inefficient. We believe in charity and productivity (which contributes to a higher standard of living and quality of life for all) - and when you have a prosperous people, you have that much more charity.
In the end, you can't claim the moral highground of wanting to 'take care of people' while holding a gun to their heads. It doesn't matter whether you're a criminal, a large majority, or the government. It's wrong, period.
This is what it boils down to. Libertarians don't believe you can/should give any other individual any rights that you yourself do not have. Things such as theft, slavery and murder are wrong, period. It's safe to say that the *vast* majority of people, whether libertarian, republican, progressive, centrist, etc actually live their lives by libertarian principles. You don't try to impose your will directly on others. You don't steal from people, try to enslave them, or kill them or threaten to kill them merely because they want to engage in an activity you disapprove of and they reject your authority over their lives. But for some reason, when it comes to 'the state' (which is nothing but an abstraction anyways, the state is just a group of individuals), there is a logical disconnect.
Am I saying we should entirely abolish the government and any/all roles it has in our lives? No - but what I am saying is that we should work to maximize freedom and limit government, as much as possible.
53 minutes ago · Like ·
Bradford Jefferson: Libertarians are just tarted up plutocrats.
43 minutes ago · Like · 1 person
· Flag
Me: Bradford, your statement is not backed up by any precedent, whatsoever.
Corporatism, resulting through big govt like we have now, on the other hand...
29 minutes ago · Like · Dislike
I've joined/Liked some progressive facebook groups to comment and sew seeds of librty and dissent into some progressives. I don't expect to convert them all, or even most - but to at least get a number of them thinking.
I think it may be a good idea for many of us libertarians to join such groups to encourage actual debate and conversation on the issues. not only does it help us in spreading our propaganda and the truth, morality and logic of freedom and liberty, but also to help keep our debating skills sharp. Know what I mean?
Also, as everyone here knows, I do actually want to eventually completely abolish the government - but one step at a time, know what I mean? ;)
Thoughts?