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FrankRep
07-08-2010, 06:06 PM
Flashback:

Ron Paul Endorses Chuck Baldwin for President (http://www.ronpaul.com/2008-09-23/ron-paul-endorses-chuck-baldwin-for-president/)

Ron Paul.com
September 23, 2008

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America Is In A Societal Meltdown (http://chuckbaldwinlive.com/home/?p=1862)


Chuck Baldwin Live (http://chuckbaldwinlive.com/)
July 8, 2010


“We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry, would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.” So said Founding Father and America’s second President John Adams. And he was absolutely right. And that is what is absolutely wrong with our country today: America is in a complete moral, societal, and cultural meltdown.

Founding Father and America’s first US Supreme Court Chief Justice John Jay correctly summarized the reason our new nation (and the fight for its liberty and independence) was successful. He wrote in Federalist 2, “With equal pleasure I have as often taken notice that Providence has been pleased to give this one connected country to one united people–a people descended from the same ancestors, speaking the same language, professing the same religion, attached to the same principles of government, very similar in their manners and customs, and who, by their joint counsels, arms, and efforts, fighting side by side throughout a long and bloody war, have nobly established general liberty and independence.”

In other words, a united constitutional republic can only exist within the framework of certain rather narrow and finite conditions. Remove those conditions and the framework for liberty and limited government falls apart. And the above statements by Adams and Jay succinctly summarize the conditions necessary for freedom’s framework.

“A Moral And Religious People”

At America’s founding, the principles of Christian philosophy and ideology were universally accepted. The vast majority of the colonists were churchgoing, Protestant Christians who firmly embraced and respected the sacred principles taught in the Holy Scriptures. In fact, the reason most colonists placed such a high premium on education was so that children would be able to read and study the Bible for themselves. It is more than interesting that America’s early educators all centered their curriculum upon the Bible. Include in this august list Benjamin Harris, publisher of the New England Primer; the “Father of American Education,” Noah Webster; along with one of early America’s most successful school textbook authors, William Holmes McGuffey.

Beyond that, when we talk about colonial America’s love of worship, we are not talking about what passes for “worship” in modern America. We are not talking about these Disneyland entertainment villages known as mega-churches. We are not talking about espresso Sunday Schools or glorified social clubs. We are talking about a place where preachers were bold and powerful proclaimers of truth and where people went to learn the Word of God (and how to apply it to every walk of life–including politics), not wallow in slurpy, sugary, shallow sermonettes that do nothing to prepare men for Christian warfare.

I challenge anyone to compare any of the sermons by colonial preachers such as Elisha Williams, Charles Chauncy, Jonathan Mayhew, Isaac Backus, Samuel Sherwood, John Witherspoon, Jacob Cushing, Samuel Cooper, Samuel Langdon, John Leland, Samuel Miller, Enos Hitchcock, Ebenezer Baldwin, or Jonathan Edwards with anything preached by Joel Osteen or Rick Warren.

Is it any wonder, then, that one cannot really distinguish the conduct and attitudes of professing Christians from those who make no Christian profession? Is it any wonder that churchgoing “Christians” seem to be as unkind, as deceitful, as lazy, as greedy, as unthankful, and as immoral as those who make no pretense regarding their unbelief? In fact, in some cases, those with no Christian profession put professing Christians to shame in matters of basic morality, decency, and civility. Why? One reason is the fact that the Church as a whole is no longer “the pillar and ground of the truth.” Rather, it is more commonly regarded as being a Big Business enterprise that is focused more on political correctness and entertainment than it is on possessing real conviction or spiritual power.

Add to the collapse of spirituality in America’s churches the collapse of morality in America’s culture. We’re talking about old-fashioned, basic morality. How is it that so many Americans seem to be so ignorant about the simplest moral principles? When did greed and ambition replace a desire for honest character? When did comfort and ease replace conviction for (and understanding of) good government? How is it that even “conservatives” have come to look to Washington, D.C., for answers to State or even personal problems? How is it that the fear of God is no longer relevant when choosing our civil magistrates? How can businessmen continue to sacrifice the sacred principles of liberty on the altar of financial profits? Are money and wealth really more important than liberty and peace? How can politicians blatantly disregard their oaths to the Constitution? How can they continue to grovel before special interest groups–and even foreign interests? How can they–so willingly and easily–violate the liberty principles enshrined in the Bill of Rights and Declaration of Independence?

Without an understanding of (and an appreciation for) basic morality, America will collapse. Money and military might cannot and will not replace the time-tested foundations of morality and fidelity. The collapse of basic morality portends the collapse of America itself.

“One United People”

Contrary to what one hears from the politically correct crowd today, unity–not diversity–is the key to America’s greatness. Jay said that early America was united with the same ancestors, language, religion, and principles of government, manners, and customs. And he was right.

By and large, America was a Christian nation, speaking the same language, reading the same Bible, worshipping the same God, understanding (and respecting) the same form of government (a constitutional confederation of free, self-governing states), and embracing the same concepts of culture (law, nature, manners, etc.).

No more!

Thanks to decades of federal dictation, public school indoctrination, and media and entertainment propaganda, the principles that once united us now divide us. And divided we are! I would even argue that America is hopelessly and helplessly divided. We are no longer united in our understanding of (or appreciation for) Christianity; we are no longer united in our English language; we are no longer united in our respect for our ancestors; we are no longer united in our respect for God’s Word; we are no longer united in our respect for the principles of federalism or constitutional government; and we are no longer united in our appreciation for the fundamental principles of self reliance, morality, and freedom.

In other words, it is “crystal clear” that America is in the midst of a complete and total spiritual, societal, cultural, moral, and political meltdown. And what is also abundantly obvious is that as long as Washington, D.C., continues to lord it over us (and who or what is going to stop it?), it is only a matter of time before the final collapse occurs. And at that point, freedom lovers will be fighting against their own countrymen for their very lives and liberty.

Accordingly, I think all this talk about “saving America” is largely a complete waste of time and energy. Instead, we need to be talking about saving our individual states (and the truth is, probably at least half of the states are beyond repair), saving our families, saving our communities, and saving our individual freedoms. To continue to focus on “saving America” or “changing Washington, D.C.,” etc., is utter foolishness! Washington, D.C., is not going to change; it is beyond redemption. Forget it! Circle the wagons around your State; cement your convictions; prepare your family; ready your resolve; and start planning for life after death–the death of liberty and law in America–because the meltdown of American society and culture has already begun.


SOURCE:
http://chuckbaldwinlive.com/home/?p=1862

libertarian4321
07-08-2010, 06:18 PM
More theocratic ranting from Chuck Baldwin.

I'm not surprised he thinks only the religious can be moral because he is a tool of the church, but I'm amazed that he either can't or won't see the immoral acts perpetrated in the name of religion.

Same shit, different day- Baldwin never changes.

heavenlyboy34
07-08-2010, 06:19 PM
"In other words, a united constitutional republic can only exist within the framework of certain rather narrow and finite conditions. " If this is so (and I agree with his assessment of the weakness of Republics), he undermines the RPF Federalists' arguments for the Constitution and against AoC. ;):cool:

FrankRep
07-08-2010, 06:21 PM
More theocratic ranting from Chuck Baldwin.

John Adams was smoking crack when he wrote this I guess:

"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."

heavenlyboy34
07-08-2010, 06:22 PM
More theocratic ranting from Chuck Baldwin.

I'm not surprised he thinks only the religious can be moral because he is a tool of the church, but I'm amazed that he either can't or won't see the immoral acts perpetrated in the name of religion.

Same shit, different day- Baldwin never changes.

Fair enough, but Baldwin is not the same irrational religionist-statist that Theo, et al. are. His "theocratic ranting" is much more in line with historical American beliefs than Theo's as well. JMHO.

FrankRep
07-08-2010, 06:24 PM
Ben Franklin's thirteen moral virtues, cited in his Autobiography.


1. Temperance: Eat not to dullness; drink not to elevation

2. Silence: Speak not but what may benefit others or yourself; avoid trifling conversation.

3. Order: Let all your things have their places; let each part of your business have its time.

4. Resolution: Resolve to perform what you ought; perform without fail what you resolve.

5. Frugality: Make no expense but to do good to others or yourself; i.e., waste nothing.

6. Industry: Loose no time; be always employ'd in something useful; cut off all unnecessary actions.

7. Sincerity: Use no hurtful deceit; think innocently and justly, and if you speak, speak accordingly.

8. Justice: Wrong none by doing injuries, or omitting the benefits that are your duty.

9. Moderation: Avoid extremes, forbear resenting injuries so much as you think they deserve.

10. Cleanliness: Tolerate no uncleanliness in body, cloaths, or habitation.

11. Tranquility: Be not disturbed at trifles, or at accidents common or unavoidable.

12. Chastity: Rarely use venery but for health or offspring, never to dullness, weakness, or the injury of your own or another's peace or reputation.

13. Humility: Imitate Jesus and Socrates



Also...

The Morning Question, What Good shall I do this Day?

The Evening Question, What Good have I done to day?

spudea
07-08-2010, 06:29 PM
complete gibberish and unsubstantiated.

jkr
07-08-2010, 06:30 PM
My President!

heavenlyboy34
07-08-2010, 06:30 PM
Ben Franklin's thirteen moral virtues, cited in his Autobiography.


1. Temperance: Eat not to dullness; drink not to elevation

2. Silence: Speak not but what may benefit others or yourself; avoid trifling conversation.

3. Order: Let all your things have their places; let each part of your business have its time.

4. Resolution: Resolve to perform what you ought; perform without fail what you resolve.

5. Frugality: Make no expense but to do good to others or yourself; i.e., waste nothing.

6. Industry: Loose no time; be always employ'd in something useful; cut off all unnecessary actions.

7. Sincerity: Use no hurtful deceit; think innocently and justly, and if you speak, speak accordingly.

8. Justice: Wrong none by doing injuries, or omitting the benefits that are your duty.

9. Moderation: Avoid extremes, forbear resenting injuries so much as you think they deserve.

10. Cleanliness: Tolerate no uncleanliness in body, cloaths, or habitation.

11. Tranquility: Be not disturbed at trifles, or at accidents common or unavoidable.

12. Chastity: Rarely use venery but for health or offspring, never to dullness, weakness, or the injury of your own or another's peace or reputation.

13. Humility: Imitate Jesus and Socrates



Also...

The Morning Question, What Good shall I do this Day?

The Evening Question, What Good have I done to day?

Oh, the irony of Ben Franklin, of all people, advocating "chastity" and "temperance". LMFAO!!!!!! :D

CCTelander
07-08-2010, 06:30 PM
Fair enough, but Baldwin is not the same irrational religionist-statist that Theo, et al. are. His "theocratic ranting" is much more in line with historical American beliefs than Theo's as well. JMHO.


I agree with you that Baldwin isn't as bad as Theo and his ilk, but I still have serious reservations about the guy. Just my opinion.

FrankRep
07-08-2010, 06:32 PM
I agree with you that Baldwin isn't as bad as Theo and his ilk, but I still have serious reservations about the guy. Just my opinion.

Anyone remember this?


Ron Paul Endorses Chuck Baldwin for President (http://www.ronpaul.com/2008-09-23/ron-paul-endorses-chuck-baldwin-for-president/)

Ron Paul.com
September 23, 2008

silus
07-08-2010, 06:39 PM
Chuck Baldwin is straight up garbage. He has no ability to see or understand the world without his Christian beer goggles.

CCTelander
07-08-2010, 06:41 PM
Anyone remember this?


Ron Paul Endorses Chuck Baldwin for President (http://www.ronpaul.com/2008-09-23/ron-paul-endorses-chuck-baldwin-for-president/)

Ron Paul.com
September 23, 2008


Wow, that's great. Too bad I'm not the kind of person who lets Ron Paul, or anyone else for that matter, do my thinking for me.

catdd
07-08-2010, 08:22 PM
I like Chuck and he's frequently right on liberty issues.

TruckinMike
07-08-2010, 09:49 PM
Oh, the irony of Ben Franklin, of all people, advocating "chastity" and "temperance". LMFAO!!!!!! :D

Its not uncommon for people to condemn their own destructive weaknesses. Ben Franklin is no exception.

And silus...

Chuck Baldwin is straight up garbage. He has no ability to see or understand the world without his Christian beer goggles.

Its his "Christian beer goggles" that helps him understand the world better than indoctrinated, hate filled atheists.

TMike

silus
07-08-2010, 10:07 PM
And silus...


Its his "Christian beer goggles" that helps him understand the world better than indoctrinated, hate filled atheists.

TMike
Most people set their sights a bit higher than being above hate filled atheists.

FrankRep
07-08-2010, 10:14 PM
Chuck Baldwin is straight up garbage. He has no ability to see or understand the world without his Christian beer goggles.

The Declaration of Independence (http://www.ushistory.org/declaration/document/)


When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.


It's funny because the Declaration of Independence, itself, mentions "God" and "Creator."

silus
07-08-2010, 10:19 PM
The Declaration of Independence (http://www.ushistory.org/declaration/document/)


When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.


It's funny because the Declaration of Independence, itself, mentions "God" and "Creator."
The Declaration of Independence mentions god, it was not developed with only god in mind. Not sure how you even thought that point was relevant. Chuck Baldwin is an ant, and its insane that people associate him with liberty. His big government is religion. He knows nothing about true individual freedom.

FrankRep
07-08-2010, 10:23 PM
The Declaration of Independence mentions god, it was not developed with only god in mind. Not sure how you even thought that point was relevant. Chuck Baldwin is an ant, and its insane that people associate him with liberty. His big government is religion. He knows nothing about true individual freedom.

The War on Religion (http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/paul148.html)

Rep. Ron Paul, MD
December 30, 2003



The Founding Fathers envisioned a robustly Christian yet religiously tolerant America, with churches serving as vital institutions that would eclipse the state in importance. Throughout our nation’s history, churches have done what no government can ever do, namely teach morality and civility. Moral and civil individuals are largely governed by their own sense of right and wrong, and hence have little need for external government. This is the real reason the collectivist Left hates religion: Churches as institutions compete with the state for the people’s allegiance, and many devout people put their faith in God before their faith in the state. Knowing this, the secularists wage an ongoing war against religion, chipping away bit by bit at our nation’s Christian heritage. Christmas itself may soon be a casualty of that war.


SOURCE:
http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/paul148.html

sofia
07-08-2010, 10:28 PM
More theocratic ranting from Chuck Baldwin.

I'm not surprised he thinks only the religious can be moral because he is a tool of the church, but I'm amazed that he either can't or won't see the immoral acts perpetrated in the name of religion.

Same shit, different day- Baldwin never changes.

there is no morality without religion. The only reason why some atheists are moral is because of the lessons handed down to them by religious ancestors.

Religion is to morality what fuel is to a rocket.

The rocket may still rise for a while even after the fuel is spent...due to momentum.

But after a few generations of atheism....any residual morality will be gone and u get what we have in America today....a total cesspool just waiting to implode.

heavenlyboy34
07-08-2010, 10:37 PM
The Declaration of Independence (http://www.ushistory.org/declaration/document/)


When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.


It's funny because the Declaration of Independence, itself, mentions "God" and "Creator."

When the DOI mentions "God", Jefferson is referring to the desist concept of "God"-that is, Nature itself. Read his analysis of the Bible and you will understand better. (he rejects both the Pauline doctrine and the dogma of the Old Testament)

Slutter McGee
07-08-2010, 10:38 PM
there is no morality without religion. The only reason why some atheists are moral is because of the lessons handed down to them by religious ancestors.

Religion is to morality what fuel is to a rocket.

The rocket may still rise for a while even after the fuel is spent...due to momentum.

But after a few generations of atheism....any residual morality will be gone and u get what we have in America today....a total cesspool just waiting to implode.

Oh bullshit. Is something moral because God commands it? Or does God command it therefore it is moral? If it is the former, then God is arbitrary. If it is the latter then God is not omniscient. That is why we can't base an ethical framework off religous beliefs.

That is not to say that God does not exist. It is not to say that you shouldn't be a Christian or follow Christian teachings. It just means that we have to base an ethical framework for society off something else.

I vote the writings of John Locke.

I hope this intelligent post partially makes up for a stupid post earlier.

Sincerely,

Slutter McGee

sofia
07-08-2010, 10:40 PM
Oh bullshit. Is something moral because God commands it? Or does God command it therefore it is moral? If it is the former, then God is arbitrary. If it is the latter then God is not omniscient. That is why we can't base an ethical framework off religous beliefs.

That is not to say that God does not exist. It is not to say that you shouldn't be a Christian or follow Christian teachings. It just means that we have to base an ethical framework for society off something else.

I vote the writings of John Locke.

I hope this intelligent post partially makes up for a stupid post earlier.

Sincerely,

Slutter McGee

good luck inspiring the sheeple to get inspired by John Locke....

sorry...but only superstition and fire and brimstone will make the masses behave like decent folk

heavenlyboy34
07-08-2010, 10:42 PM
good luck inspiring the sheeple to get inspired by John Locke....

sorry...but only superstition and fire and brimstone will make the masses behave like decent folk

lolz....it's funny because it's sooo true! ;):D

Slutter McGee
07-08-2010, 10:48 PM
good luck inspiring the sheeple to get inspired by John Locke....

sorry...but only superstition and fire and brimstone will make the masses behave like decent folk

Then why not argue for theocracy? Seriously, could you sound anymore authoritarian? I might convert to Judism for the sole purpose of pissing you off.

Sincerely,

Slutter McGee

FrankRep
07-08-2010, 10:48 PM
When the DOI mentions "God", Jefferson is referring to the desist concept of "God"-that is, Nature itself. Read his analysis of the Bible and you will understand better. (he rejects both the Pauline doctrine and the dogma of the Old Testament)

Thomas Jefferson does call himself a Christian though. (http://www.beliefnet.com/resourcelib/docs/133/Letter_from_Thomas_Jefferson_to_Benjamin_Rush_1.ht ml)

Letter from Thomas Jefferson to Benjamin Rush
May 21, 1803


To the corruptions of Christianity I am indeed opposed; but not to the genuine precepts of Jesus himself. I am a Christian, in the only sense he wished any one to be; sincerely attached to his doctrines, in preference to all others; ascribing to himself every human excellence; & believing he never claimed any other.

silus
07-08-2010, 10:52 PM
there is no morality without religion. The only reason why some atheists are moral is because of the lessons handed down to them by religious ancestors.

Religion is to morality what fuel is to a rocket.

The rocket may still rise for a while even after the fuel is spent...due to momentum.

But after a few generations of atheism....any residual morality will be gone and u get what we have in America today....a total cesspool just waiting to implode.
Again, you show this strange confidence in garbage opinions... The reason why you haven't a clue is because your argument suggests a collective belief in any religion would be America's cure. Your other problem is you have no idea the origin of morality. Morals have existed in human societies before Christianity and before any religion even existed. Animals have even shown a degree of morality, an example being how elephants treat other members of their herd. Morality, as a true believer in liberty understands, comes first from self-interest.

Honestly you should just stop posting your opinions for a good while.

Slutter McGee
07-08-2010, 11:02 PM
Morality, as a true believer in liberty understands, comes first from self-interest.

I agreed with everything else you said, but I don't think I can agree with this. Egoism and Objectivism often create circular arguments. Self-interest IS moral, but it is not what morality itself is based on. Self-Interest betters humanity. But the dismissal of altruism as a moral act seems absurd. And to argue that altruism is nothing more than self interest itself creates the circular argument.

Sincerley,

Slutter McGee

silus
07-08-2010, 11:18 PM
I agreed with everything else you said, but I don't think I can agree with this. Egoism and Objectivism often create circular arguments. Self-interest IS moral, but it is not what morality itself is based on. Self-Interest betters humanity. But the dismissal of altruism as a moral act seems absurd. And to argue that altruism is nothing more than self interest itself creates the circular argument.

Sincerley,

Slutter McGee
I'm not sure i understand your point. Self-interest is not necessarily moral, nor does it necessarily better humanity. The point is that morality has its origins in self-interest. "Self" not being limited to just a single being, but the environment they operate in. Altruism is a fabrication.

Slutter McGee
07-08-2010, 11:26 PM
I'm not sure i understand your point. Self-interest is not necessarily moral, nor does it necessarily better humanity. The point is that morality has its origins in self-interest. "Self" not being limited to just a single being, but the environment they operate in. Altruism is a fabrication.

Inclusion of the environment they operate in necessitates that the "self" is collectively based. I don't argee. If altruism is a fabrication, then you would argue that I am way to drunk to be trying to argue philosophy on the internet right now, and that I really actually agreed with most everything you said so goodnight.

Sincerely,

Slutter McGee

silentshout
07-08-2010, 11:38 PM
I don't get the point of articles like this. So what if most of the founders were Christian (I would assume most of them were either Christian or Deist)? Does this mean society has to be exactly the same? Why can't people just let others believe or disbelieve what they want?

As for morality only coming from religious texts and religion itself..I don't even want to go there. People really think that people of other religions, or those without religion, are immoral? Sad. And no, not all non-religious people worship at the altar of the state.

This kind of talk actually turns me off to religion, and I do believe in a creator.

TNforPaul45
07-08-2010, 11:48 PM
It is amazing how quickly we of the liberty movement can turn on each other when there is a slight disagreement.

Don't let yourselves fall into the easy argumentative trap of religion. Those who would want to divide find this an easy tool to use to stir the pot.

Let us keep our focus of "attack" on the real enemy, not each other.

Baldwin's point is not to argue the source of morals, though he has his opinion. It is to point out the breakdown on our society's reliance on ANY moral framework.

silus
07-09-2010, 02:23 AM
Its a good thing then Chuck Baldwin is not in the liberty movement.

.Tom
07-09-2010, 02:49 AM
More theocratic bullshit spewing from the mouth of Chuck "Statist" Baldwin.

libertarian4321
07-09-2010, 03:21 AM
John Adams was smoking crack when he wrote this I guess:

"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."

I don't know what he was smoking, if anything, but anyone who thinks only religious (and, in Baldwin's case, that's limited to Christian people, and only those that subscribe to his particular brand of Christianity) people can be good, decent, and moral people is a flaming idiot.

libertarian4321
07-09-2010, 03:25 AM
there is no morality without religion. The only reason why some atheists are moral is because of the lessons handed down to them by religious ancestors.


Utter nonsense, and you know it- or at least you should know it, if you have any intelligence.

libertarian4321
07-09-2010, 03:33 AM
Anyone remember this?


Ron Paul Endorses Chuck Baldwin for President (http://www.ronpaul.com/2008-09-23/ron-paul-endorses-chuck-baldwin-for-president/)

Ron Paul.com
September 23, 2008

Yes, I remember it clearly.

He held a press conference to endorse third party candidates- Libertarian, Green, and Constitution. He didn't endorse any of them, just said that any of them was a better choice than the Republican or Dem candidates.

Then Libertarian Bob Barr pulled a stunt where he didn't show up and held his own press conference- publicly embarrassing Ron Paul.

Dr. Paul, obviously upset with Barr, in a fit of pique, gave a half-assed endorsement of Baldwin (its not like he was going to endorse a nut like McKinney).

Not exactly a strong endorsement, but even if it was, we'd be wise to ignore it (hint: we like Ron Paul, but he's NOT perfect and we don't slavishly follow his every word).

Baldwin and his ilk are DANGEROUS. Religions seek to control people- to tell them how to think and what to do, just as governments do.

Submitting to government is dangerous. Submitting to religion is dangerous.

Submitting to a religious nut like Baldwin who wants to enforce his version of government and who wants to be the head of government you is REALLY, REALLY DANGEROUS.

No thanks!

libertarian4321
07-09-2010, 03:38 AM
sorry...but only superstition and fire and brimstone will make the masses behave like decent folk

Well, at least you admit religion is superstition.

Why would someone that realizes religion is superstition want to use religion to control people while at the same time claiming to be pro-liberty?

BTW, I would never try to force people to stop chanting, examining goat entrails, playing with bead, worship statues, shaking rattles, praying, burning incense or whatever the heck they do for their particular "God" (or Gods)- I just don't believe the religious should use the heavy hand of government to coerce free thinking people into following their brand of the "one true religion."

JohnEngland
07-09-2010, 03:51 AM
The War on Religion (http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/paul148.html)

Rep. Ron Paul, MD
December 30, 2003



The Founding Fathers envisioned a robustly Christian yet religiously tolerant America, with churches serving as vital institutions that would eclipse the state in importance. Throughout our nation’s history, churches have done what no government can ever do, namely teach morality and civility. Moral and civil individuals are largely governed by their own sense of right and wrong, and hence have little need for external government. This is the real reason the collectivist Left hates religion: Churches as institutions compete with the state for the people’s allegiance, and many devout people put their faith in God before their faith in the state. Knowing this, the secularists wage an ongoing war against religion, chipping away bit by bit at our nation’s Christian heritage. Christmas itself may soon be a casualty of that war.


SOURCE:
http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/paul148.html

Good find! Thanks!