Chiropractors for Ron Paul?

[nbhadja]

"As I mentioned in my blog post, I don't know much about Ron Paul but I have seen his name appearing consistently in chiropractic newsgroups and e-mail newsletters. It will be interesting to see which 2008 presidential candidates receive endorsements from national organizations, such as the International Chiropractors Association and the World Chiropractic Alliance. If anyone can offer information as to why Ron Paul would make a good candidate for the chiropractic profession to support, I'll consider posting it to Planet Chiropractic. You can reach me via e-mail by clicking on the yellow envelope under the title of this post."

http://www.planetc1.com/cgi-bin/n/v.cgi?c=1&id=1192404197

Anyone know how big Planet Chiropractic is? At the very least it could help donations, they are pretty rich after all.

[dircha]

Yes, I'm sure all the quackopractors and homeopaths are picturing what a boon a Ron Paul presidency would be to their wallets.

They'd love to get their hands on that medicare and medicaid money for chiropractic and homeopathic "treatments".

I don't care what people do with their own money, but so long as I'm helping pay for it, I have a say in it, and I don't want a dime of my money going to either.

Once its out of the system though, have at it, anyone can go have his spine adjusted while downing a vial of diluted snail mucus with an acupuncture needle up his butt, for all I care. Just not while I'm paying for it.

But in the mean time... many of them are rather well off. Getting access to their money for the campaign would be a real boon to us, all in the name of Health Care freedom of course.

[hopeforamerica]

Yes, I'm sure all the quackopractors and homeopaths are picturing what a boon a Ron Paul presidency would be to their wallets.

They'd love to get their hands on that medicare and medicaid money for chiropractic and homeopathic "treatments".

I don't care what people do with their own money, but so long as I'm helping pay for it, I have a say in it, and I don't want a dime of my money going to either.

Once its out of the system though, have at it, anyone can go have his spine adjusted while downing a vial of diluted snail mucus with an acupuncture needle up his butt for all I care. Just not while I'm paying for it.

But in the mean time... many of them are rather well off. Getting access to their money for the campaign would be a real boon to us, all in the name of Health Care freedom of course.


This post wins the most ignorant post of the day.

[ConstitutionGal]

This post wins the most ignorant post of the day.

I'll second that. Most RATIONAL people understand that homeopathic medicines as well as chiropractic and acupuncture are helping millions and that our government is basically trying to outlaw all three because that isn't where the big money is. I have worked in the chiropractic field in years past and can tell you that most chiropractors are not living nearly as high on the hog as most MD's are. They are in chiropractic because they believe in it and I have seen TONS of folks helped drastically by chiropractic when main-stream medicine just wanted to drug them or perform un-needed surgery on them. Any who scoff at such 'alternative' treatments are flying the face of eons of natural healing. Something that Dr. Paul doesn't believe the government should be outlawing or regulating at the behest of big pharma and the AMA - both of whom want to stiffle any competition to the status quo.

[AlexAmore]

Dircha, you're an idiot.

Sorry for that post nbhadja, he does not represent us in any way. I for one respect your profession and have had great results from chiropractors.

[partypooper]

Once its out of the system though, have at it, anyone can go have his spine adjusted while downing a vial of diluted snail mucus with an acupuncture needle up his butt, for all I care. Just not while I'm paying for it.

agreed :D

[Elwar]

A few things about presidential candidate Ron Paul and his stance on
Chiropractic:

"I do not like politics but I must say that Congressman Ron Paul,
physician and republican candidate for president, supports the
parent's right to make medical decisions. He has been an honorary
member of Michigan Opposing Mandatory Vaccines since the group's
inception in 1994. I am the Director of Vaccine Research for that
group and have respected Ron Paul because he is not afraid to take a
stand for what is right. He does not agree with mandating vaccines and
completely understands the risks to the American family." --Mary Tocco

Dr. Paul introduced a bill to amend the Department of Veterans Affairs
Health Care Programs Enhancement Act of 2001 to require the provision
of chiropractic care and services to veterans at all Department of
Veterans Affairs medical centers.

Dr. Paul introduced a bill to allow access to truthful and
understandable dietary supplement claims. HR 4004 - Health
Information Independence Act - prevents the Federal Government from
restricting the distribution of a dietary supplement or other
nutritional food because the manufacturer makes health claims
unapproved by the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) if: (1) the
product has a label clearly stating that its health claims are not
FDA-approved; (2) the FDA lacks evidence establishing probable cause
that the claims contain misleading information posing a threat to the
safety and well-being of those who use the product. Requires an
independent review of a determination by the FDA that there is such
probable cause.

Rep. Ron Paul on FDA anti Complementary and Alternative
"Medicine"(CAM) Guidance:
"An abuse of FDA power..."
By using the term "Medicine" rather than "Modality" for CAM
practices, the FDA sets the stage so that anyone who is not a licensed
physician is breaking the law by using these modalities since they are
therefore 'practicing medicine without a license'.

"Forced mental health screening is just the latest of many state
usurpations of parental authority: compulsory education laws,
politically-correct school curricula, mandatory vaccines, and
interference with discipline through phony "social services" agencies
all represent assaults on families." - U.S. Representative Ron Paul,
M.D.

During his medical career specializing in obstetrics/gynecology, he
delivered more than 4,000 babies. He refused to accept payment by
Medicare or Medicaid, preferring to not charge patients or to work out
a cash payment.

"When we give government the power to make medical decisions for us,
we, in essence, accept that the state owns our bodies." - U.S.
Representative Ron Paul, M.D.

Learn more at: http://ronpaul2008.com

[TVMH]

Yes, I'm sure all the quackopractors and homeopaths are picturing what a boon a Ron Paul presidency would be to their wallets.

They'd love to get their hands on that medicare and medicaid money for chiropractic and homeopathic "treatments".

I don't care what people do with their own money, but so long as I'm helping pay for it, I have a say in it, and I don't want a dime of my money going to either.

Once its out of the system though, have at it, anyone can go have his spine adjusted while downing a vial of diluted snail mucus with an acupuncture needle up his butt, for all I care. Just not while I'm paying for it.

But in the mean time... many of them are rather well off. Getting access to their money for the campaign would be a real boon to us, all in the name of Health Care freedom of course.

I'm guessing you've never been to a chiropractor?

I've gone before, and it was very helpful.

[Politeia]

As it happens, just today I composed a message to send to a local friend who is a DOM (Doctor of Oriental Medicine, i.e. acupuncturist) about Ron Paul. My friend, usually a fairly conventional left-liberal, responded:

"I've read now read all of the below, though only the first third of the 50+ articles listed on his web site. I'm sold that he would be the best candidate I've ever heard of for my main concerns which are in the field of health and healthcare."

A good start, especially as my friend is prominent and influential in the local alternative health field.

So I've sent the same message (below) to the proprietor of the linked blog on chiropractic.

-----------------------------------------------
Ron Paul and Health Freedom

Something that few people understand about Ron Paul is that he's really a "single issue candidate". His "platform" is not the usual patchwork of "positions" stitched together in hopes of winning the support of enough disparate interest groups to get elected. All his positions derive from his advocacy of the Constitution: As a government official, whether a ten-term representative or president, he will not support any government action that is not authorized by the Constitution. The Constitution grants the government no powers of oversight or action regarding matters of health or medicine, thus his position on these issues.

Further, he supports the Constitution because he finds that as written it is in harmony with his personal libertarian view that everyone should be free to conduct his/her life as he/she sees fit, so long as he/she does not interfere with the same freedom possessed by others. Thus he would also oppose any attempt to amend the Constitution so as to grant the government any power over health and medicine.

"Unless we put medical freedom into the Constitution, the time will come when medicine will organize into an undercover dictatorship... To restrict the art of healing to one class of men and deny equal privileges to others will constitute the Bastille of medical science. All such laws are un-American and despotic and have no place in a republic... The Constitution of this republic should make special privilege for medical freedom as well as religious freedom." --Benjamin Rush, M.D., signer of The Declaration of Independence, writing to George Washington.

(Unfortunate this wasn't done; I'd bet President Ron Paul would support such a "Benjamin Rush Amendment".)

-----------------------------------------------
Some background about Ron Paul's views on health freedom:

Ron Paul 2008 > Issues > Health Freedom
<http://www.ronpaul2008.com/issues/health-freedom>

"Government prescription for health is bad medicine"
<http://www.ronpaullibrary.org/document.php?id=29>

And more at the Ron Paul Library:
<http://www.ronpaullibrary.org/topic.php?id=22>

Chiropractors Support MD for President
<http://www.lewrockwell.com/blog/lewrw/archives/015853.html>

Chiropractors Voting for Ron Paul
<http://blog.planetc1.com/2007/10/04/chiropractors-voting-for-ron-paul>

-----------------------------------------------
Some info collected by a poster at Ron Paul Forums (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=9719):

"I do not like politics but I must say that Congressman Ron Paul, physician and Republican candidate for president, supports the parent's right to make medical decisions. He has been an honorary member of Michigan Opposing Mandatory Vaccines since the group's inception in 1994. I am the Director of Vaccine Research for that group and have respected Ron Paul because he is not afraid to take a stand for what is right. He does not agree with mandating vaccines and completely understands the risks to the American family." --Mary Tocco

Dr. Paul introduced a bill to amend the Department of Veterans Affairs Health Care Programs Enhancement Act of 2001 to require the provision of chiropractic care and services to veterans at all Department of Veterans Affairs medical centers. (Though in general he prefers to keep government out of medicine, in the case of veterans the government owes them care, and he wants them to have the best.)

Dr. Paul introduced a bill to allow access to truthful and understandable dietary supplement claims. HR 4004 - Health Information Independence Act - prevents the Federal Government from restricting the distribution of a dietary supplement or other nutritional food because the manufacturer makes health claims unapproved by the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) if: (1) the product has a label clearly stating that its health claims are not FDA-approved; (2) the FDA lacks evidence establishing probable cause that the claims contain misleading information posing a threat to the safety and well-being of those who use the product. Requires an independent review of a determination by the FDA that there is such probable cause.

Rep. Ron Paul on FDA anti Complementary and Alternative "Medicine" (CAM) Guidance: "An abuse of FDA power..." By using the term "Medicine" rather than "Modality" for CAM practices, the FDA sets the stage so that anyone who is not a licensed physician is breaking the law by using these modalities since they are therefore 'practicing medicine without a license'.

"Forced mental health screening is just the latest of many state usurpations of parental authority: compulsory education laws, politically-correct school curricula, mandatory vaccines, and interference with discipline through phony "social services" agencies all represent assaults on families." - U.S. Representative Ron Paul, M.D.

During his medical career specializing in obstetrics/gynecology, he delivered more than 4,000 babies. He refused to accept payment by Medicare or Medicaid, preferring to not charge patients or to work out a cash payment.

"When we give government the power to make medical decisions for us, we, in essence, accept that the state owns our bodies." - U.S. Representative Ron Paul, M.D.

[Politeia]

I hadn't refreshed the page before I sent the message in my last post; I guess I duplicated your effort. Anyway, the guy now has the info.

[RP4ME]

I'm guessing you've never been to a chiropractor?

I've gone before, and it was very helpful.

Ill second that and suggest that poster reconsider his views. When you have your health freedom taken form you youll cry like a baby when your sick! And chances are you will get sick but Phrama via teh FDA will take away all your choices and it will be illegl for you to get treatmnets that CURE and dont just supress your symptoms while you live out whats left of your misearble existence. I know I have been there and every day Phrama is taking steps via the govt and teh FDA to prosecute chiroprctors, alternative MD's and other health practicioners for CURING US......Cure is a NaSTY word in Phramaceutical circles and conventionla medicine as whole.......

I dont care if someone was offering gasoline injections to cure Lyme disease ....if I knew teh risks and wnte dto do it I shoudl be able to do it! My body!

quacks exist within their ranks as they do in "conventional circles"......

[BlindD]

Yeah, well all treatment peddlers (M.D., D.C., D.O. N.D., D.Acu., D.H.) are pretty much useless (and often destructive) when it comes to real health recovery and maintenance. Use these guys for trauma care when necessary; otherwise your health is your responsibility. Live healthfully and you'll have good health. Nothing complicated about it. Most everyone on this planet is brainwashed to run to some peddler whenever they hurt a little bit, instead of thinking about how they are causing their own diseases and problems. People live like idiots, get sick, and then run to peddlers with cash in hand yelling, "fix me!" Or else they run to gov't. Pretty pathetic.

In any case, no Constitutional reason for anyone to be paying for any of it, except out of their own pockets. I think RP understands that pretty well.

[Politeia]

I don't care what people do with their own money, but so long as I'm helping pay for it, I have a say in it, and I don't want a dime of my money going to either.

Once its out of the system though, have at it, anyone can go have his spine adjusted while downing a vial of diluted snail mucus with an acupuncture needle up his butt, for all I care. Just not while I'm paying for it.

Are you for real, or just trolling for reactions? Oddly enough, the opinions you express are exactly how I feel about conventional, corporate, allopathic medicine, which seems to me mostly amazingly primitive, brutal and stupid. Only in the controlled environment of government licensing and suppression of competition could it have survived and prospered this long.

That any form of socialized medicine (which all candidates but Ron Paul favor) will force me to pay for treatment which not only will I not use but which I regard as often grossly harmful to those who in ignorance do use it -- while severely "regulating" or outlawing all forms of treatment I do and have used for decades with good results (including especially chiropractic, acupuncture and herbal medicine) -- I regard as an outrage.

So perhaps we can agree on this at least: a free market in health treatment in medicine, with neither control nor subsidization by government in any field, where anyone can seek the treatment of his choice without interference, will be best for everyone.

See, just like Dr. Paul says: Freedom brings people together.

[me3]

I agree, ignorant post by dircha that misses what RP's positions are about.

Do we need a letter writing campaign to these various fraternities and professional associations? Seems like they have the income potential, self interest, and client reach to be valuable supporters.

[ConstitutionGal]

I agree, ignorant post by dircha that misses what RP's positions are about.

Do we need a letter writing campaign to these various fraternities and professional associations? Seems like they have the income potential, self interest, and client reach to be valuable supporters.

Those of us who utilize 'alternative' care and treatments should be spreading the word on our local levels with every visit to a practioner, health food store or supplement vendor. Our local herbal remedy/vitamin store let us put Ron Paul liberty cards by the check out and our Chiropractor is now spreading 'the message' via email!! The grass (as in grass-roots) just keeps on growing no matter how hard the PTB try to keep it mowed down!

[murrayrothbard]

'Alternative medicine' is a ripe field for RP. I converted my sister into a RP supporter. She is currently studying to become a doctor of naturopathy.

[DJ RP]

In my opinion people who think homeopathy is anything more than a placebo are by definition irrational.

Though I support 100% people's right to use and administer it if they freely choose to.

[wgadget]

And then there are health food forums, and alternative medicine forums.... All for Paul!

[deedles]

This post wins the most ignorant post of the day.

I second that. Maybe that person just needs a good adjustment
:rolleyes:

[LibertyEagle]

Yes, I'm sure all the quackopractors and homeopaths are picturing what a boon a Ron Paul presidency would be to their wallets.

They'd love to get their hands on that medicare and medicaid money for chiropractic and homeopathic "treatments".

I don't care what people do with their own money, but so long as I'm helping pay for it, I have a say in it, and I don't want a dime of my money going to either.

Once its out of the system though, have at it, anyone can go have his spine adjusted while downing a vial of diluted snail mucus with an acupuncture needle up his butt, for all I care. Just not while I'm paying for it.

But in the mean time... many of them are rather well off. Getting access to their money for the campaign would be a real boon to us, all in the name of Health Care freedom of course.

Your post is a perfect display of abundant ignorance. As in all fields, there are good alternative medicine practitioners and bad ones. I realize it may shock you, but the same is true for MDs. It may be interesting for you to note that what we call "alternative medicine" in this country is mainstream in others. Ours is one of the few countries who believes mainstream, acceptable medicine is to cut out, chop off or medicate the hell out of, whatever is wrong with your body. Amazingly, some other countries practice medicine that seeks to get to the root of the problem and fixes that, instead of cutting it off or giving you say, morphine, to cover up the pain. Amazing, I know. :rolleyes:

[wgadget]

Yep, an attitude adjustment.

[LibertyEagle]

In my opinion people who think homeopathy is anything more than a placebo are by definition irrational.



And you're basing this on what scientific evidence, exactly? :rolleyes:

[partypooper]

And you're basing this on what scientific evidence, exactly? :rolleyes:

there is plenty of evidence for that, actually.

this is a more entertaining story:

http://www.csicop.org/si/2004-05/belgium.html

[RP4ME]

Yeah, well all treatment peddlers (M.D., D.C., D.O. N.D., D.Acu., D.H.) are pretty much useless (and often destructive) when it comes to real health recovery and maintenance. Use these guys for trauma care when necessary; otherwise your health is your responsibility. Live healthfully and you'll have good health. Nothing complicated about it. Most everyone on this planet is brainwashed to run to some peddler whenever they hurt a little bit, instead of thinking about how they are causing their own diseases and problems. People live like idiots, get sick, and then run to peddlers with cash in hand yelling, "fix me!" Or else they run to gov't. Pretty pathetic.

In any case, no Constitutional reason for anyone to be paying for any of it, except out of their own pockets. I think RP understands that pretty well.

Wrong!!!! We are sick in lot of cases for reason that have nothing to do with eating wrong or living wrong!!!l! I am a perfect expample of that! I ran 25 miles a week, lifted weights and rode horses !!!! I got bitten by tick and becme so ill I was bedridden and lost feeling througout my body not to mention the awful pain I experienced daily for years!!!!! Do i need to even go into what being bedridden fo ryears did for my career, my home, my car, my investemnsts?.....

SO next time you think you are supreior for eating well and exercising and think chronically ill people did it to themselves ......CHECK YOURSELF!!!!!!

My MD who is also an alternative DR. has saved my life when the convetional med comunity refused to see me and left me for dead.....I am getting better!!! And that attitude YOU HAVE feeds the current movement by teh FDA, Drs. and big Pharma top take away our choices. :mad:

[LibertyEagle]

there is plenty of evidence for that, actually.

this is a more entertaining story:

http://www.csicop.org/si/2004-05/belgium.html

Hhmmm... that wasn't scientific evidence. I'm waiting....

You know, it wasn't too many years ago, that western medicine espoused that vitamins did you no good either. :D

I look forward to your "evidence".

[LibertyEagle]

//

[DJ RP]

And you're basing this on what scientific evidence, exactly? :rolleyes:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/horizon/2002/homeopathy.shtml

Is just one such study.

Also if you accept homeopathy you have to adjust our entire scientific understanding of molecules. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

[RP4ME]

What is considered quackery today is actually in most cases just getting bck to how they used to practice medicine....really trying to get to the root causes...
Homeopathy is currently succsessfully used to treat Brain tumor patients.....

Also vaccines (without the metals and nasty toxins) are homeopathic when you think about it.....

I have used accupuncture and it took my pain away temporarily and relaxed me and help me sleep....I dont need a sicentific study to tell me it works lthough they are already in existence......
I think when faced with a challenging medical problem it is the "irrational" person that wait for some pharma funded peer reviewd BS study published in the often misleading and often falsified oh so political NEJM.....they tell me I can jump now so I ll jump but its not true that I can jump until the moment they say it....before it was untrue.......

[partypooper]

Hhmmm... that wasn't scientific evidence. I'm waiting....

You know, it wasn't too many years ago, that western medicine espoused that vitamins did you no good either. :D

I look forward to your "evidence".

i am pretty sure vitamins are worthless. i am waiting for your evidence to the contrary :).

as for this suicide, i think it is a pretty good study, actually (what is not scientific about it?)

i did a research on this for my blog last year so i will get back to you. i simply don't feel like searching medline right now. :)

[LibertyEagle]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/horizon/2002/homeopathy.shtml

Is just one such study.

Also if you accept homeopathy you have to adjust our entire scientific understanding of molecules. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

Where's the study? I don't see any scientific study at the link you provided. Try again.

By the way, are you an M.D., or from where are you extracting your claim of knowledge of molecular biology?

[LibertyEagle]

i am pretty sure vitamins are worthless. i am waiting for your evidence to the contrary :).

as for this suicide, i think it is a pretty good study, actually (what is not scientific about it?)

i did a research on this for my blog last year so i will get back to you. i simply don't feel like searching medline right now. :)

Actually, the JAMA came out in support of vitamins several years ago. I know that, because my brother-in-law is an M.D. and he was one of the parrots who didn't believe in vitamins either. That is, until JAMA finally admitted that lo and behold, they were helpful. :p

[RP4ME]

Let me guess. Lyme disease?

By the way, I understand the sentiment.

Yeah - i guess the Lyme rage gve me a way....hahahaha
and you?

[partypooper]

Actually, the JAMA came out in support of vitamins several years ago. I know that, because my brother-in-law is an M.D. and he was one of the parrots who didn't believe in vitamins either. That is, until JAMA finally admitted that lo and behold, they were helpful. :p

well, this is not evidence. unless you want to accept as evidence that fact that my sister is an MD and she told me that homeopathy is worthelss ;).

so, you need to find an original article, that clearly spells out the methodology. i have to do the same, i agree (and i will, just not right now).

[LibertyEagle]

well, this is not evidence. unless you want to accept as evidence that fact that my sister is an MD and she told me that homeopathy is worthelss ;).

so, you need to find an original article, that clearly spells out the methodology. i have to do the same, i agree (and i will, just not right now).

I'm not the one trying to prove an assertion. You ARE.

I know vitamins are useful.

Note: Oh BTW, your sister's "belief" is not exactly on the same scale as JAMA.

[LibertyEagle]

Yeah - i guess the Lyme rage gve me a way....hahahaha
and you?

Takes one to know one. :p

[partypooper]

I'm not the one trying to prove an assertion. You ARE.

I know vitamins are useful.

well, you used the "fact" about vitamins as an analogy for homeopathy. if you just "know" that both are effective then there is no point in discussing it - i also know they are not effective.

however, for those that do not know, here is some evidence:

hang EY. Glissmeyer M. Tonnes S. Hudson T. Johnson N. Outcomes of breast cancer in patients who use alternative therapies as primary treatment. [Journal Article] American Journal of Surgery. 192(4):471-3, 2006 Oct.
UI: 16978951

BACKGROUND: Some breast cancer patients opt for alternative treatments in place of conventional treatments. The lack of published data on the outcome of this strategy may contribute to this trend. METHODS: A chart review was performed of breast cancer patients who refused or delayed standard surgery, chemotherapy, and/or radiation therapy. Prognosis was calculated for recommended and actual therapy. RESULTS: Thirty-three patients were included in the analysis. Of 11 patients who initially refused surgery, 10 developed disease progression. Of 3 patients who refused adequate nodal sampling, 1 developed nodal recurrence. Of 10 patients who refused local control procedures, 2 developed local recurrences and 2 died of metastatic disease. By refusing chemotherapy, 9 patients increased their estimated 10-year mortality rate from 17% to 25%. CONCLUSIONS: Alternative therapies used as primary treatment for breast cancer are associated with increased recurrence and death. Homeopathy instead of surgery resulted in disease progression in most patients. These data may aid patients who are considering alternative therapies.


Passalacqua G. Bousquet PJ. Carlsen KH. Kemp J. Lockey RF. Niggemann B. Pawankar R. Price D. Bousquet J. ARIA update: I--Systematic review of complementary and alternative medicine for rhinitis and asthma. [Review] [100 refs] [Journal Article. Meta-Analysis. Research Support, Non-U.S. Gov't. Review] Journal of Allergy & Clinical Immunology. 117(5):1054-62, 2006 May.
UI: 16675332

Complementary-alternative medicines are extensively used in the treatment of allergic rhinitis and asthma, but evidence-based recommendations are lacking. To provide evidence-based recommendations, the literature was searched by using MedLine and the Cochrane Library to March 2005 (Key words: Asthma [OR] Rhinitis, [AND] Complementary [OR] Alternative Medicine, [OR] Herbal, [OR] Acupuncture, [OR] Homeopathy, [OR] Alternative Treatment). Randomized trials, preferably double-blind and published in English, were selected. The articles were evaluated by a panel of experts. Quality of reporting was assessed by using the scale validated by Jadad. The methodology of clinical trials with complementary-alternative medicine was frequently inadequate. Meta-analyses provided no clear evidence for the efficacy of acupuncture in rhinitis and asthma. Some positive results were described with homeopathy in good-quality trials in rhinitis, but a number of negative studies were also found. Therefore it is not possible to provide evidence-based recommendations for homeopathy in the treatment of allergic rhinitis, and further trials are needed. A limited number of studies of herbal remedies showed some efficacy in rhinitis and asthma, but the studies were too few to make recommendations. There are also unresolved safety concerns. Therapeutic efficacy of complementary-alternative treatments for rhinitis and asthma is not supported by currently available evidence.

Carpenter JS. Neal JG. Other complementary and alternative medicine modalities: acupuncture, magnets, reflexology, and homeopathy. [Review] [41 refs] [Journal Article. Review] American Journal of Medicine. 118 Suppl 12B:109-17, 2005 Dec 19.
UI: 16414335

We sought to evaluate evidence for the benefits and risks of acupuncture, magnets, reflexology, and homeopathy for menopause-related symptoms. Search strategies included electronic searches of online databases (PubMed, PsycINFO, Medline), direct searches of target journals, and citation-index searches. A total of 12 intervention studies were identified for review. Complementary and alternative medicine (CAM) treatments resulted in few side effects. The design, study populations, and findings across acupuncture studies varied. In uncontrolled studies, acupuncture improved subjective measures of hot flash frequency and vasomotor, somatic, physical, and psychological symptoms; however, improvements were not consistent. Controlled studies of acupuncture yielded even less consistent findings. Overall, controlled studies of acupuncture did not reliably improve hot flashes, sleep disturbances, or mood when compared with nonspecific acupuncture, estrogen therapy, or superficial needling. Homeopathy significantly improved subjective measures of hot flash frequency and severity, mood, fatigue, and anxiety in uncontrolled, open-label studies. Controlled studies of magnets and reflexology failed to demonstrate any increased benefit of treatment over placebo. There is a need for additional investigations of acupuncture and homeopathy for the treatment of hot flashes and other menopausal symptoms. However, existing evidence does not indicate a beneficial effect of magnets or reflexology in the treatment of hot flashes and other menopausal symptoms.

Shang A. Huwiler-Muntener K. Nartey L. Juni P. Dorig S. Sterne JA. Pewsner D. Egger M. Are the clinical effects of homoeopathy placebo effects? Comparative study of placebo-controlled trials of homoeopathy and allopathy.[see comment]. [Comparative Study. Journal Article. Meta-Analysis. Research Support, Non-U.S. Gov't] Lancet. 366(9487):726-32, 2005 Aug 27-Sep 2.
UI: 16125589

BACKGROUND: Homoeopathy is widely used, but specific effects of homoeopathic remedies seem implausible. Bias in the conduct and reporting of trials is a possible explanation for positive findings of trials of both homoeopathy and conventional medicine. We analysed trials of homoeopathy and conventional medicine and estimated treatment effects in trials least likely to be affected by bias. METHODS: Placebo-controlled trials of homoeopathy were identified by a comprehensive literature search, which covered 19 electronic databases, reference lists of relevant papers, and contacts with experts. Trials in conventional medicine matched to homoeopathy trials for disorder and type of outcome were randomly selected from the Cochrane Controlled Trials Register (issue 1, 2003). Data were extracted in duplicate and outcomes coded so that odds ratios below 1 indicated benefit. Trials described as double-blind, with adequate randomisation, were assumed to be of higher methodological quality. Bias effects were examined in funnel plots and meta-regression models. FINDINGS: 110 homoeopathy trials and 110 matched conventional-medicine trials were analysed. The median study size was 65 participants (range ten to 1573). 21 homoeopathy trials (19%) and nine (8%) conventional-medicine trials were of higher quality. In both groups, smaller trials and those of lower quality showed more beneficial treatment effects than larger and higher-quality trials. When the analysis was restricted to large trials of higher quality, the odds ratio was 0.88 (95% CI 0.65-1.19) for homoeopathy (eight trials) and 0.58 (0.39-0.85) for conventional medicine (six trials). INTERPRETATION: Biases are present in placebo-controlled trials of both homoeopathy and conventional medicine. When account was taken for these biases in the analysis, there was weak evidence for a specific effect of homoeopathic remedies, but strong evidence for specific effects of conventional interventions. This finding is compatible with the notion that the clinical effects of homoeopathy are placebo effects.

etc, etc...

[LibertyEagle]

LOL!!! You are saying that because alternative medicine has not been found to be successful by Western doctors for treating breast cancer, that alternative medicine is not useful for ANYTHING? LOL!!!

[partypooper]

LOL!!! You are saying that because alternative medicine has not been found to be successful by Western doctors for treating breast cancer, that alternative medicine is not useful for ANYTHING? LOL!!!

it is a placebo. placebo is useful for some things.

and my sister also reads jama (in fact, she publishes in similar journals). you were the one who brought jama as the relevant source, though you haven't actually read it (you heard about it second-hand, which is always dangerous).

[RP4ME]

Takes one to know one. :p

HAHAH - yeah i was just think I was way over the top in that post......but its not all teh Lyme brain its also just teh loss and the erroneous judgement we face everday by peopel who think well if she hd just eaten right or worked out.....I ws the picture of health before Lyme came to town... and was actually...thinking Id train for the ECO Challnge...but actually lyme is much much harder than any eco challnge so perhps one day Ill skip and whistle through that lame race.....

:D
Hope you are getting better! It can happen........your prolly in my online lyme group.....

[steph3n]

There are some great natural plants for treating many ailments, I love aloe vera :D

I have note been to the doctor for any sickness in 14 years, all I do is take large amounts of vitamin c and b complex and in the last 1 year I have stopped eating sugars and I am doing better than ever :)

[LibertyEagle]

//

[LibertyEagle]

//

[RP4ME]

it is a placebo. placebo is useful for some things.

and my sister also reads jama (in fact, she publishes in similar journals). you were the one who brought jama as the relevant source, though you haven't actually read it (you heard about it second-hand, which is always dangerous).

HAHAHAHAHAHA

Tell that to all the woman who had stage 3 or 4 breast cancer who failed chemo/radition and are now fully well and cancer free thanks to the Budwig diet - with Flax oil and Cottage cheese - it also cures other cancers and these people report in weekly online their test resuts and the shock they give their docs when it works.....hahahahahahahaha

Medicine here, is actually coming around to that and now flax oil trials have alredy started at Duke for Prostate cancer patients..Oh and a herbal pill you can still get called Zyflamend available at most helath stores .......dramaticlly reduces prostate cancer levels so much so that Columbia drs. are giiving them to theri cancer pateienst like CANDY! yeah but its all BUNK.....all placebo......we are stupid...it cant work until Columbia or NEJM says so.......enjoy your slash burn and poison treatments....b/c afterall they have improved cancer rates whopping 1% in 50 years.....hahahahaaha

[steph3n]

oh yes Uncle Sam cereal I eat it every morning really good stuff loaded with flaxseed!

[LibertyEagle]

//

[RP4ME]

Yeah, what's the name of that herb that MDs now tell men to take when they are having prostate troubles?
Its a bunch of herbs - the pill is Zyflmend and its made by New chapter - its a capsule....

Its being studied at Cleveland Clinic for Glioblastoma stage 4 brain cancer patients and is used at columbia for Prostate cancer.It has a combo of herbs - rosemry, bosellia(frankinsence) and others.....good stuff $30 bottle

[partypooper]

Before you make a bigger fool out of yourself, you should check out your facts a bit more. Traditional medicine even admits now that vitamins are good things.

i prefer that you don't call me 'fool' because i haven't called you so either. apparently you know everything, yet you can't show anything.

good night.

[BlindD]

You re a perfect example of emergency/trauma care.
As I said, M.D.'s for trauma care (i.e. Emergency Care), and then get the heck out of their midst before you get poisoned!
Look, literally 95% of all diseases are self-caused. So, obviously, at least 95% of the time the answer is to stop causing your problems.
Instead, people want pills, treatments, therapies. And they want the gov't to give it to them for 'free'. Clearly this is immoral and unethical, not to mention plain stupid. But... that's regular people for ya.



Wrong!!!! We are sick in lot of cases for reason that have nothing to do with eating wrong or living wrong!!!l! I am a perfect expample of that! I ran 25 miles a week, lifted weights and rode horses !!!! I got bitten by tick and becme so ill I was bedridden and lost feeling througout my body not to mention the awful pain I experienced daily for years!!!!! Do i need to even go into what being bedridden fo ryears did for my career, my home, my car, my investemnsts?.....

SO next time you think you are supreior for eating well and exercising and think chronically ill people did it to themselves ......CHECK YOURSELF!!!!!!

My MD who is also an alternative DR. has saved my life when the convetional med comunity refused to see me and left me for dead.....I am getting better!!! And that attitude YOU HAVE feeds the current movement by teh FDA, Drs. and big Pharma top take away our choices. :mad:

[Brennon]

Honestly, I'm a little disappointed. What happened to all the intellectual skeptics on here?? Simply arguing that something 'worked' for you is hardly proof of anything. Placebo surgeries have been found in some instances to be as affective as actual surgery in terms of pain reduction of the knee, for example. Arguing that you noticed improvement in yourself does NOT mean something is scientifically valid or holds any merit as it's completely anecdotal and proves nothing. With that said, with a degree in exercise physiology and biomechanics, I find chiropractors frighteningly dangerous and their 'subluxation' theory completely without merit. I imagine Dr. Paul would as well, as almost all doctors do. If someone can post peer-reviewed research to the contrary, I'm always happy to change my opinion.

Regardless, if someone wants to spend one's own money on such treatment, it doesn't matter a bit to me.

[Brennon]

Its a bunch of herbs - the pill is Zyflmend and its made by New chapter - its a capsule....

Its being studied at Cleveland Clinic for Glioblastoma stage 4 brain cancer patients and is used at columbia for Prostate cancer.It has a combo of herbs - rosemry, bosellia(frankinsence) and others.....good stuff $30 bottle


And it works by a decline in the androgen receptor expression levels. How is this any different than finasteride (a very not-fun drug for a lot of men)?

By the way, the major cause of prostate hypertrophy is estradiol. They'd be better of coming up with a herb that could locally block estradiol rather than messing with the androgen receptor and inducing erectile dysfunction.




: Nutr Cancer. 2005;52(2):202-12. Related Articles, Links


Zyflamend, a unique herbal preparation with nonselective COX inhibitory activity, induces apoptosis of prostate cancer cells that lack COX-2 expression.

Bemis DL, Capodice JL, Anastasiadis AG, Katz AE, Buttyan R.

Department of Urology, Columbia University Medical Center, New York, NY 10032, USA. dlb2004@columbia.edu

Cyclooxygenase (COX) inhibitors have suppressive effects on several types of cancer cells including prostate cancer. In this study, we considered the potential COX-inhibitory activity of a unique anti-inflammatory herbal preparation (Zyflamend; New Chapter, Inc., Brattleboro, VT) and analyzed its effects on the human prostate cancer cell line LNCaP. COX inhibitory activity of Zyflamend was determined by a spectrophotometric-based assay using purified ovine COX-1 and COX-2 enzymes. Effects of Zyflamend on LNCaP cell growth and apoptosis in vitro were assessed by cell counting, Western blot detection of poly ADP-ribose polymerase (PARP) cleavage, and measurement of caspase-3 activity in treated and control cell extracts. Western blotting techniques were conducted to determine the effects of this herbal preparation on the expression of the cell signaling proteins, p21, androgen receptor (AR), phospho-protein kinase C (pPKC)(alpha/beta), and phospho (p)Stat3. The phospohorylation status of several signal transduction phosphoproteins was profiled using a high-throughput phosphoprotein screening assay in treated cells and compared to controls. Zyflamend dramatically decreased COX-1 and COX-2 enzymatic activity. Elevated p21 expression coincided with attenuated cell growth following treatment of LNCaP cells with Zyflamend. PARP cleavage fragments were evident, and caspase-3 activity was upregulated over the control indicating the ability of Zyflamend to induce apoptosis of these cells. Androgen receptor expression levels declined by 40%, and decreases were observed in the active forms of Stat3 and PKC(alpha/beta) in Zyflamend-treated LNCaP cells. Zyflamend inhibited both COX-1 and COX-2 enzymatic activities, suppressed cell growth, and induced apoptosis in LNCaP cells. However, our data suggests that the effects are likely due to COX-independent mechanisms potentially involving enhanced expression of p21 and reduced expression of AR, pStat3, and pPKC(alpha/beta).

[BlindD]

Dude, you are really missing the boat on this. Time for some critical thinking, yes? See below:


What is considered quackery today is actually in most cases just getting bck to how they used to practice medicine....really trying to get to the root causes...
Homeopathy is currently succsessfully used to treat Brain tumor patients.....

Are brain tumors due to a lack of homeopathic remedies? Does your bloodstream have a homeopathy deficiency?


I have used accupuncture and it took my pain away temporarily and relaxed me and help me sleep....I dont need a sicentific study to tell me it works lthough they are already in existence......Is pain, stress and tension due to a lack of acupuncture needles? Does your nervous system have a acupuncture needle deficiency? What is normal or natural about a bunch of needles sticking into your body? Bizarre.

If you have a headache, is the headache caused by an aspirin deficiency in your body? Is it caused by a lack of acupuncture needles? A deficiency of homeopathic remedies, chiropractic adjustments or herbal concoctions?
Of course not. Indeed, by putting aspirin or any other garbage into your body, you are just adding more toxic garbage to an already toxic system (which is the cause of your headache). Quit putting garbage into your body and headaches will go away forever. Very simple, logical, rational, intelligent, common sense.


I think when faced with a challenging medical problem it is the "irrational" person that wait for some pharma funded peer reviewd BS study published in the often misleading and often falsified oh so political NEJM.....they tell me I can jump now so I ll jump but its not true that I can jump until the moment they say it....before it was untrue.......Certainly medicine is pretty much bogus witchcraft voodoo, along with the drug pushers. But there have been useful developments for emergency and trauma care. If medicine and pharma would stick with those areas only, we'd all be a heckuva lot better off.
Our big job is to teach and instill freedom and common sense thinking into people regarding health and health care. Just like we've got to teach people about freedom in all other areas of life. Most of the time freedom is free. Slavery (to erroneous beliefs) costs you money. Health care is a prime example.

[steph3n]

maybe I am crazy but if a treatment of any sort reversed a major health ailment and gave me ED I think I'd sacrifice some sex to live.

But i won't sacrifice my liberty for "freedom", and I would expect to be give the option of such treatment and know its side effects, that is personal liberty :)

[Brennon]

maybe I am crazy but if a treatment of any sort reversed a major health ailment and gave me ED I think I'd sacrifice some sex to live.

But i won't sacrifice my liberty for "freedom", and I would expect to be give the option of such treatment and know its side effects, that is personal liberty :)

Steph3n, my point is that it's EXACTLY what finasteride does, which is a 'drug'. There's really little difference from what I can tell. Finasteride blocks the androgen receptor, so does this 'herbal pill'.

That's not something a normal, healthy man wants to do. If you have prostate cancer, yes, otherwise it's a bad idea. That's my major beef with a lot of the herbal stuff out there.

[steph3n]

my point was as long as people know, it is their choice.
no one should blindly ingest ANYTHING. Just because a food is "organic" doesn't make it better, nor does being non-GMO make it better.




Steph3n, my point is that it's EXACTLY what finasteride does, which is a 'drug'. There's really little difference from what I can tell. Finasteride blocks the androgen receptor, so does this 'herbal pill'.

That's not something a normal, healthy man wants to do. If you have prostate cancer, yes, otherwise it's a bad idea. That's my major beef with a lot of the herbal stuff out there.

[Brennon]

my point was as long as people know, it is their choice.
no one should blindly ingest ANYTHING. Just because a food is "organic" doesn't make it better, nor does being non-GMO make it better.

Agreed. :)

[LibertyEagle]

//

[steph3n]

this is a problem not in medicine so much but in diagnosis, my dad for 1.5 years way barely able to stand still or walk correctly.
one neurosurgeon went as far as to say he was making up the pain and problems :(

turns out he found one that cared, and find a major ruptured disc in his neck causing all the problems! It is repaired/ing now after the proper surgery. Part of the problem is doctors APATHY in finding the problem.
oh and interestingly the chiropractor is the one that found the problem and even reported it back to the neurologist (who said he's just a quack and there is not problem)




Traditional medicine = run tests. If it doesn't show up on one of their tests, there must be nothing wrong with you. It doesn't matter if you're in horrible pain, your body is twisting, bones are popping out all over the place. No. All that matters is their beloved "tests". No reason to engage your brain, or anything.

Traditional medicine's answer = You're faking. Go away.

[LibertyEagle]

[//

[BlindD]

Interesting article that talks about real freedom in health care, vs. slavery and dependence on treatment peddlers:
http://chetday.com/sniadach.html
Agrees perfectly with the freedom we all seek in all other areas of our lives.

Excerpts:
"The science of Natural Hygiene is about enhancing physical, emotional and mental well-being through education. It provides us with a simple, straightforward system for regaining and maintaining superb human health and beauty. Hygiene is personally empowering and liberating. It teaches independence and rational action. It banishes fear and ignorance regarding human health and how to keep it. Ultimately it is about freedom."

"My own interest, first of all, for myself, and second of all for any person I deal with, is to do anything I can to inculcate freedom. Freedom, independence and autonomy is what human life is all about. This is what we grow up to become - totally autonomous, self-determining, self-balancing, self-healing, self-regulating, self-correcting. We're magnificent creatures for becoming just that. Usually we don't come off being so. In various ways - emotionally, psychologically, physically - we get enslaved. And we don't have either the confidence or the ability to choose and truly conduct our own affairs and take care of ourselves. The truly burning and major issue of the 20th century - how can we become more autonomous human beings - rather than depending on authoritarian experts who give advice on everything."


"The whole thing is to let people get a taste of freedom; for self-reliance. You've got to be competent and confident enough to be independent and autonomous because freedom means that you're capable of being self-responsible. The human life has no other aim, as far as I can see than for human beings to become self-regulating and self-directing. Human freedom is at the heart of all issues. It's the only issue there is of human and moral philosophy: how can you help people become more free?

[RP4ME]

You re a perfect example of emergency/trauma care.
As I said, M.D.'s for trauma care (i.e. Emergency Care), and then get the heck out of their midst before you get poisoned!
Look, literally 95% of all diseases are self-caused. So, obviously, at least 95% of the time the answer is to stop causing your problems.
Instead, people want pills, treatments, therapies. And they want the gov't to give it to them for 'free'. Clearly this is immoral and unethical, not to mention plain stupid. But... that's regular people for ya.

How the HECK am I am example of EMERGENCY CARE??? I DID NOT CAUSE MY DISEASE and Id love to see you back up your stats that show 95% of all illness are caused by ourselves via bad eating or lack of exercise.....I dont doubt tht alot of disese is in partly caused by being overweight and sedentary but what you stated earlier is the height of arrogance and shows true lack of compassion!!!!!!!

Im all about healthy living !!! I think my actvities prior to being bitten would wear out most people - I know I worked out more than my trainer did! But 4 years later Im still very ill and unable to work!!!!!

What are you talking about ????- who said I wanted anything for free......in fact my treatmnets have cost me out of pocket 15k a month for many months!!! And this was the Conventional approach..... And I had "great" insurance..Yes peopel mke mistakes in what they eat,...peopel drink diet cokes thinking thats healthy.....but there is more to illness than food and exercise and if you dont get that then perhps you have given yourself Alzheimers and need therapy.....

now I am seeing an Alternative DR and Im getting better with a combo of herbs supplements and 1 pharmaceutical.....do you think that I woudl just get rid of this illness with a good diet and soem exercise???HAHAHAH It doesnt get healthier than raw vegetable juicing daily, all organics, raw fish, veggies and fruits and low sugar no processed foods...but nice try....

Well the odds are now.... that you will get Lyme and even better it will be misdiagnosed b/c peoplel like you are rampant in the Convetional medical world and disparage people like me.....and say things ...like well if you just eat right youll snap out of it...... so youll see things clearly when you are laying in your bed overcome with your inexplicable pain and agony that you cant escape from as much as you will good health back into your life in those trying monents............... it is the most rapidly spreading infectious disease ...more so than HIV so watch out LIFE might just adjust that superior TUDE of yours!

[LibertyEagle]

//

[RP4ME]

Interesting article that talks about real freedom in health care, vs. slavery and dependence on treatment peddlers:
http://chetday.com/sniadach.html
Agrees perfectly with the freedom we all seek in all other areas of our lives.

Excerpts:
"The science of Natural Hygiene is about enhancing physical, emotional and mental well-being through education. It provides us with a simple, straightforward system for regaining and maintaining superb human health and beauty. Hygiene is personally empowering and liberating. It teaches independence and rational action. It banishes fear and ignorance regarding human health and how to keep it. Ultimately it is about freedom."

"My own interest, first of all, for myself, and second of all for any person I deal with, is to do anything I can to inculcate freedom. Freedom, independence and autonomy is what human life is all about. This is what we grow up to become - totally autonomous, self-determining, self-balancing, self-healing, self-regulating, self-correcting. We're magnificent creatures for becoming just that. Usually we don't come off being so. In various ways - emotionally, psychologically, physically - we get enslaved. And we don't have either the confidence or the ability to choose and truly conduct our own affairs and take care of ourselves. The truly burning and major issue of the 20th century - how can we become more autonomous human beings - rather than depending on authoritarian experts who give advice on everything."


"The whole thing is to let people get a taste of freedom; for self-reliance. You've got to be competent and confident enough to be independent and autonomous because freedom means that you're capable of being self-responsible. The human life has no other aim, as far as I can see than for human beings to become self-regulating and self-directing. Human freedom is at the heart of all issues. It's the only issue there is of human and moral philosophy: how can you help people become more free?

HMMMM Hygeine????? Umm so if we want to choose our path to wellness and it involves the temprary use of alt. medicines to get us there...we are enslaved???Pa leez.... tell taht to teh American indians who healed through their herbs!!!Tell taht to the Chinese who have dealth wit serious illness vis herbs and accupuncture....this is vague at best.....
Are you a Christain scientist?

[LibertyEagle]

//

[BlindD]

We probably shouldn't talk about this, because this issue is just a little too close to home.

Anything that amps up passion is useful. It helps people to wake up.

RP4ME - Lymes and similar problems do indeed fall into the "bad luck" category. Sorry to hear about it, and bravo for your efforts to deal with it.

I speak about the many, many millions who suffer from chronic, self-caused disease, which is the vast majority of all diseases. Cancer, heart problems, diabetes, every 'itis disease, on and on... all self-caused. Stop causing them and they will go away, nearly all of the time. Instead of causing disease, better to cause health. Cause and effect in every case.

[RP4ME]

Dude, you are really missing the boat on this. Time for some critical thinking, yes? See below:



Are brain tumors due to a lack of homeopathic remedies? Does your bloodstream have a homeopathy deficiency?

Is pain, stress and tension due to a lack of acupuncture needles? Does your nervous system have a acupuncture needle deficiency? What is normal or natural about a bunch of needles sticking into your body? Bizarre.

If you have a headache, is the headache caused by an aspirin deficiency in your body? Is it caused by a lack of acupuncture needles? A deficiency of homeopathic remedies, chiropractic adjustments or herbal concoctions?
Of course not. Indeed, by putting aspirin or any other garbage into your body, you are just adding more toxic garbage to an already toxic system (which is the cause of your headache). Quit putting garbage into your body and headaches will go away forever. Very simple, logical, rational, intelligent, common sense.

Certainly medicine is pretty much bogus witchcraft voodoo, along with the drug pushers. But there have been useful developments for emergency and trauma care. If medicine and pharma would stick with those areas only, we'd all be a heckuva lot better off.
Our big job is to teach and instill freedom and common sense thinking into people regarding health and health care. Just like we've got to teach people about freedom in all other areas of life. Most of the time freedom is free. Slavery (to erroneous beliefs) costs you money. Health care is a prime example.

Accupuncture, homeopathy Bizarre? Yes they are..but they work and they are very non toxic. i see that you eschew any form of medicine. You do not know why one gets headache....it could be sinus, stress (whats tht?) brain tumor an aneurysm.....YOU and medicine dont have all teh answers....but guess what aspirin sometime shelps headaches so we take it.....accupuncture needles.....work - if your asking me to tell you why.....I know what Chinese medicine says - it frees up energy blockages - but why we have those noone knows specifiaclly and nether do you.......but we know it works so while Im sick Ill take all teh help I can get....

What would you do for someone liek me - just lay there and deal with it....
But then again you seem to keep asserting I brought Lyme disease on myself....
Well yeah if you count living your life and enjoying horses and nature bad living....

[LibertyEagle]

//

[steph3n]

just pray for it and say it is healed it will be better :eek:

seriously not all of what you claim is self caused is so, sometimes these happen to very healthy people. I think it is best I stop now, I am going to get irrational, you sound like some of the far out people i know that say all disease of any sort is due to sin and can be healed by prayer.


Anything that amps up passion is useful. It helps people to wake up.

RP4ME - Lymes and similar problems do indeed fall into the "bad luck" category. Sorry to hear about it, and bravo for your efforts to deal with it.

I speak about the many, many millions who suffer from chronic, self-caused disease, which is the vast majority of all diseases. Cancer, heart problems, diabetes, every 'itis disease, on and on... all self-caused. Stop causing them and they will go away, nearly all of the time. Instead of causing disease, better to cause health. Cause and effect in every case.

[RP4ME]

It's called LYME, NOT LymeS! :mad:

He's got the LYMES!!! :D

[BlindD]

HMMMM Hygeine????? Umm so if we want to choose our path to wellness and it involves the temprary use of alt. medicines to get us there...we are enslaved???Pa leez.... tell taht to teh American indians who healed through their herbs!!!Tell taht to the Chinese who have dealth wit serious illness vis herbs and accupuncture....this is vague at best.....
Are you a Christain scientist?

Temporary use of artificial treatments without changing your lifestyle will result in more disease coming back. Why do that? Irrational, illogical, expensive.

Herbs don't heal, only the life energy in the body heals. Acupuncture doesn't heal, only the life energy in the body heals. Drugs don't heal, only the life energy in the body heals. The idea that things outside of you can heal you will only get you in trouble. You give away your power to the thing or person outside you... recipe for disaster.

Chinese and Indians, and most every other group on the planet have indulged in superstitious practices since pre-history. Some have awakened themselves up, some still cling to superstition. That's people for ya.

[steph3n]

He's got the LYMES!!! :D
I will send some keys from South Fl :)

when life gives you Lymes make key lymes pie :)

(sorry just trying to bring humor to something that is getting very passionate)

[steph3n]

BlindD,

its your choice with Dr Paul, do as you please, let your "life energy" shine.


Temporary use of artificial treatments without changing your lifestyle will result in more disease coming back. Why do that? Irrational, illogical, expensive.

Herbs don't heal, only the life energy in the body heals. Acupuncture doesn't heal, only the life energy in the body heals. Drugs don't heal, only the life energy in the body heals. The idea that things outside of you can heal you will only get you in trouble. You give away your power to the thing or person outside you... recipe for disaster.

Chinese and Indians, and most every other group on the planet have indulged in superstitious practices since pre-history. Some have awakened themselves up, some still cling to superstition. That's people for ya.

[RP4ME]

Anything that amps up passion is useful. It helps people to wake up.

RP4ME - Lymes and similar problems do indeed fall into the "bad luck" category. Sorry to hear about it, and bravo for your efforts to deal with it.

I speak about the many, many millions who suffer from chronic, self-caused disease, which is the vast majority of all diseases. Cancer, heart problems, diabetes, every 'itis disease, on and on... all self-caused. Stop causing them and they will go away, nearly all of the time. Instead of causing disease, better to cause health. Cause and effect in every case.

Actually woudl you say MS, ALS, FIBROMYALGIA, LUPUS, RA and CFS are self caused illnesses?

Woudl you??

Cause I have news for you many are now heavily thought to be caused by a spirochetal bacteria known as yep you guessed LYME!!!! Other bacterial infections are implicated as well. I woudl never say that stress doesnt play a role and some of that we have a resp. to mimimize but hindisght is alwys 2020.....how do you know you are working too much or plying to much and it will lead to a cancer or auto-immune illness liek the ones I mentioned....you cant....plus there is anoteh rfactor...a bacteria...plus many feel that heavt metals which are in our air, in our water an foods supresses teh immune system......collectively as a world we contribute to pollution but individuals dont cause thsi or bring it on themsleves and I hope that noone tells you what you are stating here, if you get ill...

Cancer are also thought by many to be caused by fungus, virus and bacteria.....and when treated along those lines some recover...so???? Who can say but GOD and I thank God he has given us tretamnets.....I want freedom to choose my treatmmnets.....and that is going away in this current political environment!!!!!

[RP4ME]

;) :D
I will send some keys from South Fl :)

when life gives you Lymes make key lymes pie :)

(sorry just trying to bring humor to something that is getting very passionate)

[BlindD]

just pray for it and say it is healed it will be better :eek:

seriously not all of what you claim is self caused is so, sometimes these happen to very healthy people. I think it is best I stop now, I am going to get irrational, you sound like some of the far out people i know that say all disease of any sort is due to sin and can be healed by prayer.

I say this because I have personally assisted thousands of people to recover from all kinds of chronic diseases through simple natural living and fasting. I have seen thousands of patients finally heal from all kinds of very serious diseases once they learned the laws of life and applied them diligently. I have watched as thousands of patients used water fasting to help themselves heal from diseases that M.D.'s, D.C's, homeopaths, naturopaths, acupuncturists and others had given up on.

Nearly all disease (a few exceptions of course) is self-caused due to ignorance or mis-education and false beliefs. That's the simple fact of reality. The proof is in watching patients recover as they stop causing their diseases. They cure themselves, and stay healthy. What more evidence does one need?

People cling to their assumptions and beliefs tenaciously. Most people prefer to suffer miserably and die horrible deaths rather than change their lifestyle habits, pleasures and addictions. That's just the way it is. A few rare ones wake up and grow up and take responsibility for their health. The rest suffer unnecessarily.

[BlindD]

I will send some keys from South Fl :)

when life gives you Lymes make key lymes pie :)

(sorry just trying to bring humor to something that is getting very passionate)

Doctor, ain't there nothin' I can take,

I said doctor, to relieve this belly ache

"Ya put da lime in da coconut and drink it on up,

Ya put da lime in da coconut and den you feel betta...."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCMHjbcTrmM&mode=related&search=

[LibertyEagle]

//

[LibertyEagle]

]]

[BlindD]

Definitely most are self-caused. I have had hundreds of CFS, RA, SLE, FM and MS patients improve greatly or completely by making radical healthful changes in their lifestyle, along with fasting and judicious use of specific nutrient support to assist overcoming chronic deficiencies.
Bacteria rarely if ever cause disease; bacteria come into play after the fact. The role of bacteria is to clean up dead organic matter, so wherever dead or dying organic matter is present (chronic inflammation due to toxicosis), bacteria multiply in droves to consume the sick/dying/dead cells. Blaming the bacteria is like blaming flies for the garbage heaps they live on.
RP4ME - calm down and think rationally instead of emotionally.



Actually woudl you say MS, ALS, FIBROMYALGIA, LUPUS, RA and CFS are self caused illnesses?

Woudl you??

Cause I have news for you many are now heavily thought to be caused by a spirochetal bacteria known as yep you guessed LYME!!!! Other bacterial infections are implicated as well. I woudl never say that stress doesnt play a role and some of that we have a resp. to mimimize but hindisght is alwys 2020.....how do you know you are working too much or plying to much and it will lead to a cancer or auto-immune illness liek the ones I mentioned....you cant....plus there is anoteh rfactor...a bacteria...plus many feel that heavt metals which are in our air, in our water an foods supresses teh immune system......collectively as a world we contribute to pollution but individuals dont cause thsi or bring it on themsleves and I hope that noone tells you what you are stating here, if you get ill...

Cancer are also thought by many to be caused by fungus, virus and bacteria.....and when treated along those lines some recover...so???? Who can say but GOD and I thank God he has given us tretamnets.....I want freedom to choose my treatmmnets.....and that is going away in this current political environment!!!!!

[RP4ME]

I say this because I have personally assisted thousands of people to recover from all kinds of chronic diseases through simple natural living and fasting. I have seen thousands of patients finally heal from all kinds of very serious diseases once they learned the laws of life and applied them diligently. I have watched as thousands of patients used water fasting to help themselves heal from diseases that M.D.'s, D.C's, homeopaths, naturopaths, acupuncturists and others had given up on.

Nearly all disease (a few exceptions of course) is self-caused due to ignorance or mis-education and false beliefs. That's the simple fact of reality. The proof is in watching patients recover as they stop causing their diseases. They cure themselves, and stay healthy. What more evidence does one need?

People cling to their assumptions and beliefs tenaciously. Most people prefer to suffer miserably and die horrible deaths rather than change their lifestyle habits, pleasures and addictions. That's just the way it is. A few rare ones wake up and grow up and take responsibility for their health. The rest suffer unnecessarily.

So insted of insisting on being right, why have you not shred this specail water fast with us......and explain how you would treat Lyme patients in detail b/c you have some here - we are all ears...what radical chnges shall you prescribe for me...I also note you DO promote supplementation...
what are the laws of life? Please flesh it out for me .... I can attest to the fact i am not one who wishes to die a slow misearble death.....as I have done everything to chart my course back to healing...and so far its working albeit slowly....but if you have the answer please share with the group/....

[RP4ME]

Definitely most are self-caused. I have had hundreds of CFS, RA, SLE, FM and MS patients improve greatly or completely by making radical healthful changes in their lifestyle, along with fasting and judicious use of specific nutrient support to assist overcoming chronic deficiencies.
Bacteria rarely if ever cause disease; bacteria come into play after the fact. The role of bacteria is to clean up dead organic matter, so wherever dead or dying organic matter is present (chronic inflammation due to toxicosis), bacteria multiply in droves to consume the sick/dying/dead cells. Blaming the bacteria is like blaming flies for the garbage heaps they live on.
RP4ME - calm down and think rationally instead of emotionally.

And many Drs. are seeing recoveries form these illness when treating them as infectiosu diseases....

I completely agree tha the mind can do amzing things for healing...no doubt about that but it doesnt work for everyone no matter how strong they will... for health and lead healthy lives......

[BlindD]

Well, good for you. However, just like the argument for not leaving everything up to the federal government, ONE SIZE DOES NOT FIT ALL.

Yet, you seem like someone who has just gotten religion, or who has just stopped smoking, you can only see YOUR WAY. I do agree with you that healthy eating and living will fix a lot of ailments. However, it will not fix ALL ailments. For you to propose that it does, is dangerous.

As I said, time and again, it's not ALL cases, but it IS the VAST, VAST MAJORITY of cases. I will gladly, actively and unreservedly teach that healthful living will indeed help everyone to a tremendous degree. For someone to complain that 98% is not 100% is what is dismissive and dangerous.

I am someone who has seen many, many people suffer terribly due to ignorance, superstition, mis-education, brainwashing and plain stupidity, and it is all very sad. All very unnecessary. And all very actively kept in place by certain people who profit from disease, misery and death. Those who profit are the ones who tell you that their treatments will save the day. If not this treatment or drug, then maybe the next one. Never mind the destructive side effects, let's try this new drug. And if they don't have the magic cure just yet, well, hang in there, and while you are waiting you can 'run 10K for the cure' or put colorful ribbons on your car.

[RP4ME]

As I said, time and again, it's not ALL cases, but it IS the VAST, VAST MAJORITY of cases. I will gladly, actively and unreservedly teach that healthful living will indeed help everyone to a tremendous degree. For someone to complain that 98% is not 100% is what is dismissive and dangerous.

I am someone who has seen many, many people suffer terribly due to ignorance, superstition, mis-education, brainwashing and plain stupidity, and it is all very sad. All very unnecessary. And all very actively kept in place by certain people who profit from disease, misery and death. Those who profit are the ones who tell you that their treatments will save the day. If not this treatment or drug, then maybe the next one. Never mind the destructive side effects, let's try this new drug. And if they don't have the magic cure just yet, well, hang in there, and while you are waiting you can 'run 10K for the cure' or put colorful ribbons on your car.

Okay so lay it out there - Im sick I wanna here what you can offer - obviusoly Im open to alternative methods

[BlindD]

Check out the article I mentioned earlier. That guy says it pretty well, I think. If you study Natural Hygiene deeply, you will find many answers to many problems. Of course it is not 100% perfect, but it is FAR, FAR better than any other approach to healthful living, simply because all other systems and approaches to health care do not understand what health and disease really is, in their essence.

You will notice that no other healing profession teaches "What Creates Health". No student in medical school or any other school studies health... they only study disease. Wouldn't you think that learning what causes health should be the primary thing to study, and to teach others? Yet no one does it, because they do not understand the basics. And, no one does it because their is little or no profit in teaching health. But there is big money is 'treating' disease. Indeed, for the system to work at all, it needs millions of people in pain and disease. Gotta keep the diseases going. If everyone gets healthy, we'll all go broke.

You can surely see all the parallels with every other area of human endeavor - religion, gov't, energy, education, war-making, blah, blah, blah. Gross ignorance, false beliefs and prideful arrogance gone amuk. All pathetic and sad. But there you have it... that's people for ya.

I think that earth must be a kindergarten planet... a planet for immature, childlike human intelligence to mature into real adults...slowly, slowly, very excruciatingly slowly. 'Tis a tough place to hang out!


So insted of insisting on being right, why have you not shred this specail water fast with us......and explain how you would treat Lyme patients in detail b/c you have some here - we are all ears...what radical chnges shall you prescribe for me...I also note you DO promote supplementation...
what are the laws of life? Please flesh it out for me .... I can attest to the fact i am not one who wishes to die a slow misearble death.....as I have done everything to chart my course back to healing...and so far its working albeit slowly....but if you have the answer please share with the group/....

[DJ RP]

LibertyEagle you are being intellectually dishonest in a way. The link I posted clearly outlines that James Randi with the help of the british science program Horizon funded a totally scientific double bind test which showed that homeopathic dilutions were NO MORE EFFECTIVE than water on its own... proving it is nothing more than a placebo.

The world of medicine is plagued by dodgy science simply because the human body is so unpredictable. Because we are prone o get better or get worse quite randomly with many diseases it is easy for humans to attribute false cures.

For instance I have my head massaged in a certain way and my cancer subsides. Wow, head massage is proven to cure cancer and "western science" just won't believe it. Trouble is that cancer could have started to get better on its own without a head massage, homeopathy or anything else.

If people discount science and facts and just "know" something works than great, that's your right to do so. But don't have a go at neoconservatives and war mongers who then insist that we need to be iraq so they don't attack us over here, against all facts, history and specialised knowledge.

If "Alternative medicine" is shown to work then it simply becomes "medicine". That's the truth of the matter.

If you are interested in learning about both sides of the issue check out this interesting documentary (http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=-8039164280036585666&q=richard+dawkins+enemies+of+reason&total=22&start=0&num=10&so=1&type=search&plindex=1)

Remember, if people can't honestly examine their own biases then it's hard for us to honestly try to convert people to ron paul's cause, seeing as his arguments are always backed up by facts and history...

[Thunderbolt]

I'll take any group that wants to support Ron Paul!

[jjockers]

In response to the initial post in this thread:

My mom is a naturopath (nurse practitioner & message therapist as well) and my brother will soon be a licensed chiropractor. My brother sends out weekly newsletters and has recommended Dr. Paul on several occasions. I am sure a chiropractors for Ron Paul would be a good idea and am surprised it doesn't already exist.

As for the recent discussion, I sympathize with any of you who have had to deal with an unavoidable, destructive disease. My fiancee has celiac disease and was told by numerous doctors (before diagnosis), that she was making it up - that she was anorexic. They told her this while I was in the same room. Ridiculous.

However, I agree with BlindD. Most diseases now-a-days are lifestyle caused and lifestyle cured. My fiancee's disease, for instance, has been completely controlled due to diet and exercise. Slowly, the symptoms are starting to dissipate. The pharmaceutical companies would not have us believe that anything natural could cure these problems. Natural resources cannot be patented.

One simple reason why alternative health care has less evidence: there is less money being put out to investigate the claims. Most of the money in healthcare statistics is funded by pharmaceutical companies. Pharmaceutical companies do not want to see alternative health care trump their drugs with cheaper, longer lasting alternatives.

[LibertyEagle]

//

[LibertyEagle]

//

[LibertyEagle]

If "Alternative medicine" is shown to work then it simply becomes "medicine". That's the truth of the matter.

Actually, it is not. Something becomes accepted by traditional medicine when it becomes profitable for it to become so. If it is not a huge, money-making venture, it is largely discounted. Get real. You know that.

[LibertyOfOne]

This post wins the most ignorant post of the day.

Do you know what homeopathy is? It's where they sell water for a markup and call it real medicine.

[LibertyEagle]

As I said, time and again, it's not ALL cases, but it IS the VAST, VAST MAJORITY of cases. I will gladly, actively and unreservedly teach that healthful living will indeed help everyone to a tremendous degree. For someone to complain that 98% is not 100% is what is dismissive and dangerous.

Well, you know what, Blind, if you're in that 2%, it damn sure matters! You know, it's kind of the reason why our founders gave us a Republic vs. a Democracy, isn't it. So the force of the majority couldn't impose their will on the minority, or the one. Because if you are that ONE, your rights, or health, matters quite a lot. It matters little what works on the majority, if you are that one person and you should have the freedom to treat your problem in the way that you see fit. Without big pharma, big government, nor anyone else who thinks they have all the wisdom of the ages, to force their personal opinions on you.

[hopeforamerica]

Okay, back to the original post ;)

One of our great supporters put this in there chiro blog.
http://www.planetc1.com/cgi-bin/n/v.cgi?c=1&id=1192404197

Don't bash groups that will help our cause, and stop this petty bickering. Who cares what you think one way or the other. We care about getting Ron Paul to the white house!!!!! Chriropractors are a great resource for us.

[LibertyEagle]

//

[LibertyOfOne]

:)

[LibertyEagle]

//

[LibertyEagle]

Don't bash groups that will help our cause, and stop this petty bickering. Who cares what you think one way or the other. We care about getting Ron Paul to the white house!!!!! Chriropractors are a great resource for us.

You're right. Sorry. I guess this one was too close to home for me.

[DJ RP]

I don't believe that it becomes accepted medicine if it becomes profitable. There are a LOT of people making a LOT of money out of homeopathy, chiropractors etc. The industry is HUGE. I don't think it's a terribly good argument.

Now I'm not closed minded, I recognise that much of the medicine we use now that we know works was once considered alternative. I get that most modern medicine is derived from plants and herbs. Marijuana for instance is proven to help relieve pain and that is just a plant.

However the type of homeopathy I do not believe there is any evidence to support and which goes against what we know about molecules is where you dilute the substance a certain amount of times so that the trace amount is so tiny it's simply not there.

The fact is that they did a double bind study with this kind of homeopathy (the kind that is a million dollar industry, even though it's marketed as 'alternative') and it was shown that the placebo has THE SAME EFFECT as the actual authentic dilutions.

It was shown to be a placebo.

And like it or not the placebo has been proven to be a real effect time and time again.

Now if you use a different kind of homeopathy and I'm sounding ignorant that's fine. I am talking about the kind of homeopathy that is sold in health food shops all over the country and that millions swear by. That was proven false.

The link I gave yo to the documentary is very interesting and talks a lot about how the conbination of the placebo effect and the fact that many medical ailments are erratic and unpredictable and can get worse or better TOTALLY RANDOMLY leads itself to people becoming very superstitious about what 'works' and what doesn't.

There are a LOT of problems with big drug companies being in the pockets of big goverment and there is a LOT of corruption there. don't think that I don't believe that also, because I do. And I support Ron Paul and I support the free individual to do anything they wish with their own money!

But thousands of years of superstitious medicine didn't significantly increase life expectancy. What did was the discovery of germs and doctors washing their hands.

Smallpox wasn't erradicated by massage, and aids isn't treated by the right dilution of water. The significant strides were made by controlled trials and increasing understanding of genetic and molecular biology.

I guess I'm just a fan of the scientific method.

But remember, if any alternative medicine can be shown to work in a double bind trial it will become fact and nobody will be able to dispute it because they can simply do the trial for themselves and they will get the same results if the original trial was honest.

James Randi the skeptic and illusionist has, for many years, offered $1,000,000 prize money to anybody who can prove paranormal claims of any kind (including homeopathy). The thing is, nobody takes him up on the offer. There's probably a reason for that.

[DJ RP]

Oh, and by the way, I want everybody to support Ron Paul and welcome everybody. Nor do I think anybody who disagrees with me is bad or anything. For instance, I'm an atheist but Ron Paul and many here are christians, personally I cannot understand that but I support Ron Paul 100% because all I care about is people's character and integrity.

And I only want a debate not an argument so hopefully if this thread gets too flamefest then somebody will move it to hot topics!

x

[hopeforamerica]

You're right. Sorry. I guess this one was too close to home for me.

I feel your passion on the subject. You are not going to get everyone to see things the way you do. The beauty of it, with Ron Paul in the White House, we will get to choose which is best for ourselves :D

[Brennon]

Smallpox wasn't erradicated by massage, and aids isn't treated by the right dilution of water. The significant strides were made by controlled trials and increasing understanding of genetic and molecular biology.

I guess I'm just a fan of the scientific method.

But remember, if any alternative medicine can be shown to work in a double bind trial it will become fact and nobody will be able to dispute it because they can simply do the trial for themselves and they will get the same results if the original trial was honest.



:)

[LibertyEagle]

I feel your passion on the subject. You are not going to get everyone to see things the way you do. The beauty of it, with Ron Paul in the White House, we will get to choose which is best for ourselves :D

Well, you see, I could care less if they see it my way. What ticks me off is the pomposity of some individuals who think they know the answer to everything and they do not. It's usually these same type of individuals who feel compelled to try to regulate my options out of existence and yes that PISSES ME OFF!!!

That said, it would really be a good idea if we would stop trying to insult all the alternative medicine practitioners out there, who are likely supporters of Ron Paul. It was my understanding that this is the reason why we are on this board to begin with. You know, to figure out how to best support the campaign; not to insult people and drive them away. That same notion applies to others who are insulting Christians, Jews, atheists, Muslims, or anyone else. Does everyone remember the whole idea of this campaign? You know, about bringing people together from across the spectrum to unite in our strong beliefs of individual liberty and in the need to reinstate our Constitution as the law of the land?

[jmdrake]

Yes, I'm sure all the quackopractors and homeopaths are picturing what a boon a Ron Paul presidency would be to their wallets.

They'd love to get their hands on that medicare and medicaid money for chiropractic and homeopathic "treatments".

I don't care what people do with their own money, but so long as I'm helping pay for it, I have a say in it, and I don't want a dime of my money going to either.

Once its out of the system though, have at it, anyone can go have his spine adjusted while downing a vial of diluted snail mucus with an acupuncture needle up his butt, for all I care. Just not while I'm paying for it.

But in the mean time... many of them are rather well off. Getting access to their money for the campaign would be a real boon to us, all in the name of Health Care freedom of course.

It seems that you don't know much about chiropractors or Ron Paul's position on healthcare or the assault on alternative medicine is facing from the federal government. Chiropractors have been very helpful for people I know who have had lower back pain. If I had that problem myself I would go to one LONG before I would go to some surgeon who would charge my insurance thousands of dollars for a procedure that has NOT been proven to work.

http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/11/22/news/surgery.php

Also Ron Paul's position is NOT to increase medicare benefits simply because we can't afford to do so. Speaking on the PBS show recently "The News Hour" he clearly said that he would keep the current program where it is while working to eventually transition people out of the program. He criticized both the prescription drug benefit and "schip" as new programs that we simply don't have to funding to do. He would continue funding medicare at its current level based on money saved from closing foreign military bases including places like Japan and Germany. Also recall that Dr. Paul has over the used refused medicare payments for his own medical practice. Instead he's negotiated with his own poor patients for lower rates.

However right now alternative medicine is under attack by people who want to regulate it out of business. They aren't fighting for medicare money but rather fighting for the right to continue doing their trade at all. Please educate yourself on these and other issues.

Regards,

John M. Drake

[LibertyOfOne]

I don't think anyone here is advocating government force to stop the practices of alternative "medicine". One person just made the point that no government money should go to such things.

[Brennon]

It seems that you don't know much about chiropractors or Ron Paul's position on healthcare or the assault on alternative medicine is facing from the federal government. Chiropractors have been very helpful for people I know who have had lower back pain. If I had that problem myself I would go to one LONG before I would go to some surgeon who would charge my insurance thousands of dollars for a procedure that has NOT been proven to work.

http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/11/22/news/surgery.php

Also Ron Paul's position is NOT to increase medicare benefits simply because we can't afford to do so. Speaking on the PBS show recently "The News Hour" he clearly said that he would keep the current program where it is while working to eventually transition people out of the program. He criticized both the prescription drug benefit and "schip" as new programs that we simply don't have to funding to do. He would continue funding medicare at its current level based on money saved from closing foreign military bases including places like Japan and Germany. Also recall that Dr. Paul has over the used refused medicare payments for his own medical practice. Instead he's negotiated with his own poor patients for lower rates.

However right now alternative medicine is under attack by people who want to regulate it out of business. They aren't fighting for medicare money but rather fighting for the right to continue doing their trade at all. Please educate yourself on these and other issues.

Regards,

John M. Drake


I think he did say he didn't care what others do with their own money...that's the important part, right? It doesn't seem at all he supports 'regulating it out of existance'.

The whole premise of chiropractic is a little silly (subluxations), honestly. At best, the massage beforehand can be beneficial, at worst, manipulation of the cervical spine can result in stroke. A lot of people swear by chiropractors, and that's fine with me, however, there's no possible way it can be passed off as a science.

[davidkachel]

Yes, I'm sure all the quackopractors and homeopaths are picturing what a boon a Ron Paul presidency would be to their wallets.

WOW! It's not often you see ignorance raised to an art form!!!

[jmdrake]

I don't believe that it becomes accepted medicine if it becomes profitable. There are a LOT of people making a LOT of money out of homeopathy, chiropractors etc. The industry is HUGE. I don't think it's a terribly good argument.

Now I'm not closed minded, I recognise that much of the medicine we use now that we know works was once considered alternative. I get that most modern medicine is derived from plants and herbs. Marijuana for instance is proven to help relieve pain and that is just a plant.

However the type of homeopathy I do not believe there is any evidence to support and which goes against what we know about molecules is where you dilute the substance a certain amount of times so that the trace amount is so tiny it's simply not there.

The fact is that they did a double bind study with this kind of homeopathy (the kind that is a million dollar industry, even though it's marketed as 'alternative') and it was shown that the placebo has THE SAME EFFECT as the actual authentic dilutions.

It was shown to be a placebo.

And like it or not the placebo has been proven to be a real effect time and time again.

Now if you use a different kind of homeopathy and I'm sounding ignorant that's fine. I am talking about the kind of homeopathy that is sold in health food shops all over the country and that millions swear by. That was proven false.

The link I gave yo to the documentary is very interesting and talks a lot about how the conbination of the placebo effect and the fact that many medical ailments are erratic and unpredictable and can get worse or better TOTALLY RANDOMLY leads itself to people becoming very superstitious about what 'works' and what doesn't.

There are a LOT of problems with big drug companies being in the pockets of big goverment and there is a LOT of corruption there. don't think that I don't believe that also, because I do. And I support Ron Paul and I support the free individual to do anything they wish with their own money!

But thousands of years of superstitious medicine didn't significantly increase life expectancy. What did was the discovery of germs and doctors washing their hands.

Smallpox wasn't erradicated by massage, and aids isn't treated by the right dilution of water. The significant strides were made by controlled trials and increasing understanding of genetic and molecular biology.

I guess I'm just a fan of the scientific method.

But remember, if any alternative medicine can be shown to work in a double bind trial it will become fact and nobody will be able to dispute it because they can simply do the trial for themselves and they will get the same results if the original trial was honest.

James Randi the skeptic and illusionist has, for many years, offered $1,000,000 prize money to anybody who can prove paranormal claims of any kind (including homeopathy). The thing is, nobody takes him up on the offer. There's probably a reason for that.

You know I met Mr. Randi once. During his show he spent a lot of time criticizing homeopathy and included a jab against chiropractors. After the show I went and asked him about the chiropractors and mentioned that my brother had been helped by one with his back pain. He replied "Well yes. Chiropractors are good for things like back pain. Its the other claims that they make that I have a problem with." He mentioned some although I don't recall which ones. In retrospect I think he did his audience a MAJOR disservice by attacking chiropractors in general instead of specifying that he didn't approve of SOME of the claims that SOME of the chiropractors made. That said I've also met people who had problems that didn't seem related to back pain but were helped by chiropractors. The bottom line is people should have the opportunity to make their own CHOICE! But currently "modern medicine" is given an unfair advantage even when the SCIENCE shows the "cure" doesn't work. Back surgery has been shown not to be effective for instance yet its still covered by insurance.

http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/11/22/news/surgery.php

And what about the flu shot that the government is always pushing we take? Year to year there is NO GUARANTEE that the flu shot will be effective because of the way the virus mutates.

http://www.healthcentral.com/peoplespharmacy/408/61193.html

As for AIDS, are you aware of research done at Havard which shows the effectiveness of the lowly pokeweed herb in treating HIV?

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Harvard+pokeweed+HIV+&btnG=Search

Of course ALL of the research is aimed at "isolating and synthetically replicating" the antigen responsible. If HIV patients around the world start boiling pokeweed root then where's the profit for the drug companies?

Regards,

John M. Drake

[Nefertiti]

What would you do for someone liek me - just lay there and deal with it....
But then again you seem to keep asserting I brought Lyme disease on myself....
Well yeah if you count living your life and enjoying horses and nature bad living....

I'm sorry to hear about your Lyme Disease. However, you aren't helping others by not stating the full facts about the disease and that is that there is a simple way it can be prevented in many cases and that is to inspect your body carefully for ticks and remove them immediately if you happen to spend time in the woods or other places where the ticks are prevalent. You didn't bring it on yourself but you may have been careless in not doing what you could to stop it. I don't know whether you were aware of this before you came down with the disease but whether you did or not you should be telling others this now rather than claiming it isn't a disease one brought on oneself.

http://arthritis.webmd.com/tc/lyme-disease-prevention

[Brennon]

I'm sorry to hear about your Lyme Disease. However, you aren't helping others by not stating the full facts about the disease and that is that there is a simple way it can be prevented in many cases and that is to inspect your body carefully for ticks and remove them immediately if you happen to spend time in the woods or other places where the ticks are prevalent. You didn't bring it on yourself but you may have been careless in not doing what you could to stop it. I don't know whether you were aware of this before you came down with the disease but whether you did or not you should be telling others this now rather than claiming it isn't a disease one brought on oneself.

http://arthritis.webmd.com/tc/lyme-disease-prevention


And breast cancer is preventable by having a mastectomy or prostate cancer preventable by having a prostectomy. This is simply absurd.

Are type 1 diabetes, multiple sclerosis, spina bifida, kleinfelter's syndrome, etc. etc. etc. all self inflicted diseases? This is what irks me about homeopathic medicine.

[LibertyEagle]

I'm sorry to hear about your Lyme Disease. However, you aren't helping others by not stating the full facts about the disease and that is that there is a simple way it can be prevented in many cases and that is to inspect your body carefully for ticks and remove them immediately if you happen to spend time in the woods or other places where the ticks are prevalent. You didn't bring it on yourself but you may have been careless in not doing what you could to stop it. I don't know whether you were aware of this before you came down with the disease but whether you did or not you should be telling others this now rather than claiming it isn't a disease one brought on oneself.

http://arthritis.webmd.com/tc/lyme-disease-prevention

Nefertiti, I am going to say this once and that is it. Traditional medicine does not know squat about lyme disease. As hard as it is to accept that, it is the truth. Yes, you should safely remove the tick, if you find one, but that alone is not enough. Because if it has started feeding, it likely has already injected the lyme bacteria into your bloodstream. At this point, it is still easy to get rid of, but you have to get to a doctor who has some degree of knowledge about Lyme, so they will put you on heavy duty antibiotics. I can't remember offhand the one that has been proven to work. If they do, then you can kill it. If you do not, then the bacteria will permeate every part of your body. It will go into your bones, your ligaments, even your brain. At this point, you can never totally get rid of it. The best you can do is beat it down, so that it doesn't bother you and keep an eye out for recurrences.

So, you can follow WebMD about what you should do if you get lyme, but I wouldn't advise it. ;)

I have no idea why traditional medicine is discounting lyme disease so much. It is one of the fastest growing diseases in our country. Let me tell you, it can totally change you from someone who is one of the most athletic people you have ever seen, to someone who can't even crawl on the ground. And it can do it in short order.

By the way, do you understand that the tick that carries the lyme bacteria are the very small ticks. A large percentage of the time, the person never knew they had a tick on them at all.

[jmdrake]

I don't think anyone here is advocating government force to stop the practices of alternative "medicine". One person just made the point that no government money should go to such things.

Not exactly true. The original poster FALSE CLAIMED that the reason the alternative medicine crowd would support Ron Paul is because they want to get medicare. That's called a "straw man argument". Nobody from the chiropractor side asked for money for medicare or medicade, yet the original poster falsely claimed that they would support the Ron Paul campaign because they want federal money. It was an underhanded on the sly attack. The reason people in the alternative medicine movement support Dr. Paul is that they simply want to be able to continue to practice their trade. To claim they would support a candidate that wants to PHASE OUT medicare just so that they can GET medicare is beyond the pale of stupidity. It reminds me of crap I've read at the DailyKos that claim Ron Paul has to be "stopped" because he's going to let people sell "poison vitamins".

Regards,

John M. Drake

[Korey Kaczynski]

Homeopathy is total and complete garbage, I'd rather fucking go to the dr and get real medicine than dilluted toxic shit.

As for chiropracty, I assume some of it's valid but much of it might be bullshit.

[jmdrake]

I think he did say he didn't care what others do with their own money...that's the important part, right? It doesn't seem at all he supports 'regulating it out of existance'.


No. He claimed that chiropractors would support Ron Paul only because they want medicare money. That's a stupid and totally false claim.



The whole premise of chiropractic is a little silly (subluxations), honestly. At best, the massage beforehand can be beneficial, at worst, manipulation of the cervical spine can result in stroke. A lot of people swear by chiropractors, and that's fine with me, however, there's no possible way it can be passed off as a science.

Nonsense. The "science" has shown that back surgery doesn't work. I gave you the link. And even the "Amazing Randi" will freely admit that chiropractics are good for back pain. It's the other claims that may not be true. But hey, don't believe me. Go take two Vioxx and post again in the morning. [;)]

Regards,

John M. Drake

[Ninja Homer]

Wow... a lot of stuff going on in this thread. I'm tempted to reply to a lot of it, but I'll try to keep it to a minimum.

I've studied all kinds of alternative health for a long time. If anybody wants advice on curing anything through alternative means, shoot me a PM; I'd be happy to help by giving you all the info I have on it and pointing you in the right direction.

I actually first heard of Dr. Paul through an alternative health newsletter. A lot of people are now into alternative health, and I think most of them would vote for Dr. Paul. It's a huge group of people that I think would be good to spread the word of Dr. Paul to. Just take a look at http://curezone.com. There are currently 9288 visitors there, and if you do a search for "Ron Paul" there are only 108 results.

I want to address Lyme disease. It's one of the worst diseases in history and it's a lot more widespread than most people think. Read this article:
http://www.samento.com.ec/sciencelib/sarticles/thegreatimpostor.html

Here's some highlights from the article. How Lyme is spread:

Researchers and doctors I’ve spoken with have now found live spirochetes of Lyme in fleas, mites, and mosquitoes. And although it was first thought the disease couldn’t be transmitted directly from human to human, the live spirochetes have now also been found in blood, urine, tears, semen, breast milk, cord blood, and vaginal secretions.

Lyme mimics diseases:

The problems and symptoms associated with Lyme, the new “great impostor,” can mimic over 350 different medical conditions. Doctors learned this fact by watching many of these problems and so-called “incurable” diseases disappear miraculously, sometimes within only 24 to 72 hours after treating their patients for Lyme.

I obviously can’t list all 350+ conditions here, but, after reading just a few, you’ll see how widespread the problem of Lyme has become: amyotrophic lateral sclerosis (ALS or Lou Gehrig’s disease), Parkinson’s disease, Alzheimer’s disease, multiple sclerosis, Bell’s palsy, chronic fatigue syndrome, peripheral neuropathy, fibromyalgia, schizophrenia, irritable bowel syndrome, coronary artery disease, heart failure, heart palpitations, attention deficit disorder, chronic pain syndromes, sleep apnea, mitral valve prolapse, endometriosis, polycystic ovary syndrome, Ménière’s disease, esophageal reflux, gallbladder inflammation, and various autoimmune diseases such as rheumatoid arthritis, Sjögren’s syndrome, lupus, and scleroderma. Lyme can even cause SIDS, if the mother was infected early in her pregnancy.

How to properly test for Lyme:

The conventional tests for the disease involve the Western Blot, which has the problems I mentioned earlier, and another called ELISA, which many doctors still use even though it is very unreliable and may miss as many as 75 percent of Lyme infections. Doctors specializing in the treatment of Lyme, however, utilize a combination of Western Blot testing, physical examination, tests for other related pathogens, and often a new test developed by researchers Dr. Joanne Whitaker and Eleanor Fort. The test, which checks various body fluids for the presence of the Bb pathogen, is highly accurate and can provide results within 20 minutes.

This new test is called Q-RIBb, and is available only by a doctor’s request through the Bowen Research and Training Institute at 727- 937-9077. You can get more information on their Web site at www.bowen.org. (The test costs $150 or $250, depending on the sample used.)

How to cure Lyme:

One recent study showed that a particular extract of the Peruvian medicinal plant commonly known as cat’s claw (Uncaria tomentosa) was actually more effective than antibiotic therapy in eliminating the Lyme spirochete.

The six-month study consisted of 28 patients and was conducted by US cardiologist Dr. William Lee Cowden. All of the individuals were suffering from advanced chronic Lyme, and tested positive for the Lyme spirochete Bb using the Western Blot test. Half the individuals were given the conventional antibiotic therapy and half were given the specific cat’s claw product.

At the end of the six-month study, three in the antibiotic group showed slight improvement, three were worse, and the rest remained the same. All of those in the cat’s claw group experienced a dramatic improvement, and 12 of the 14 tested Bb negative at the end of the study. (Presentation at The International Symposium for Natural Treatment of Intracellular Microorganisms, Munich, Germany, March 29, 2003)

For more info on Lyme, and possible cures, here's the Lyme forum at curezone.com:
http://curezone.com/forums/f.asp?f=58
Many recommend the herb Cat's Claw, along with mega-doses of vitamin C, under observation of your alternative health practitioner of course.

Another thing that many Lyme sufferers are having success with is a relatively new product called "Miracle Mineral Supplement." Google it, or read about it here:
http://ener-chi.com/mms.htm

[Korey Kaczynski]

Oh, by the way there were "homeopathic" cough drops in the bathroom counter. I looked at them to figure out why they weren't working, then I saw the words "homeopathic" and understood why. Then I got real cough drops with oral analgesic and those worked.

Odd, how homeopathic "treatments" don't work.

[LibertyOfOne]

I'm sorry to hear about your Lyme Disease. However, you aren't helping others by not stating the full facts about the disease and that is that there is a simple way it can be prevented in many cases and that is to inspect your body carefully for ticks and remove them immediately if you happen to spend time in the woods or other places where the ticks are prevalent. You didn't bring it on yourself but you may have been careless in not doing what you could to stop it. I don't know whether you were aware of this before you came down with the disease but whether you did or not you should be telling others this now rather than claiming it isn't a disease one brought on oneself.

http://arthritis.webmd.com/tc/lyme-disease-prevention

The problem with Lyme disease is that it's a tricky thing to kill. Even if the person found the tick right away there is no guarantee that the disease can be cured.

[Brennon]

Nonsense. The "science" has shown that back surgery doesn't work. I gave you the link. And even the "Amazing Randi" will freely admit that chiropractics are good for back pain. It's the other claims that may not be true. But hey, don't believe me. Go take two Vioxx and post again in the morning. [;)]

Regards,

John M. Drake

First, an article by a newspaper talking about a study done on surgery for ruptured disks, that "might" not be needed is hardly sufficient evidence to determine that 'spinal surgery does not work'. Regardless, I never even brought up spinal surgery, I simply said there's little science behind chiropracty and there's simply no benefit and greater danger in seeing a chiropractor over a doctor. The "amazing randi" and his opinion is of little interest to me. Show me the peer reviewed research on chiropractors and I'll change my opinion.


Neurologic complications following chiropractic manipulation: a survey of California neurologists
KP Lee, WG Carlini, GF McCormick and GW Albers
Stanford Stroke Center, Department of Neurology and Neurological Sciences, Stanford University Medical Center, Palo Alto, CA 94304-1705, USA.

To obtain an estimate of how often practicing neurologists in California encounter unexpected strokes, myelopathies, or radiculopathies following chiropractic manipulation, we surveyed each member of the American Academy of Neurology in California and inquired about the number of patients evaluated over the preceding 2 years who suffered a neurologic complication within 24 hours of chiropractic manipulation. Four hundred eighty-six neurologists were surveyed, 177 responded; 55 strokes, 16 myelopathies, and 30 radiculopathies were reported. Patients were between the ages of 21 and 60, and the majority experienced complications following cervical manipulation. Most of the patients continued to have persistent neurologic deficits 3 months after the onset, and about one-half had marked or severe deficits. Nearly all of the strokes involved the posterior circulation and almost one-half were angiographically proven. Patients, physicians, and chiropractors should be aware of the risk of neurologic complications associated with chiropractic manipulation.


Side effects of chiropractic treatment: a prospective study.

Leboeuf-Yde C, Hennius B, Rudberg E, Leufvenmark P, Thunman M.

Nordic Institute for Chiropractic and Clinical Biomechanics, Odense, Denmark.

OBJECTIVES: To investigate whether the characteristics of unpleasant sid effects after spinal manipulative therapy coincide with those obtained in a previous study. DESIGN: A prospective interview survey using standard questionnaires. SETTING: Sixty-six Swedish private practices of chiropractic (response rate, 78%).SUBJECTS: Ten consecutive patients per chiropractor (625 patients, 73% of target sample; 1858 recorded visits). INTERVENTION: Spinal manipulation. MAIN OUTCOME MEASURES: Self-reported unpleasant reactions, time of onset, duration and severity of symptoms. RESULTS: Reactions to spinal manipulation are common and benign. They typically arise and disappear shortly after treatment (usually gone the day after treatment). The most common reactions are local discomfort in the area of treatment (two thirds of reactions), followed by pain in areas other than that of treatment, fatigue or headache (10% each). Nausea, dizziness or "other" reactions are uncommonly reported (< 5% of reactions). Reactions are most commonly reported by women and (for both genders) at the beginning of the treatment series. Patients with long lasting problems are more likely to report treatment reactions; however, patients with no prior experience of chiropractic care do not report more reactions than patients previously treated by chiropractors. CONCLUSION: Common and uncommon reactions to chiropractic spinal manipulation have been identified, are to a large degree foreseeable and seem to be predominantly physiological in nature

[SlapItHigh]

Live healthfully and you'll have good health. Nothing complicated about it

I think this is partly true but you are being quite a bit narrow minded, judgemental and simplistic. First of all, good health is complicated today because of what our world has become. Polution and overuse of our soil (without giving time for nutrients to replenish) leads to some pretty poor foods. Living healthfully is a bit complicated in today's world.


I say this because I have personally assisted thousands of people to recover from all kinds of chronic diseases through simple natural living and fasting. I have seen thousands of patients finally heal from all kinds of very serious diseases once they learned the laws of life and applied them diligently. I have watched as thousands of patients used water fasting to help themselves heal from diseases that M.D.'s, D.C's, homeopaths, naturopaths, acupuncturists and others had given up on.

So you are better than the whole of all of those professions? What a ballsy claim! My ND does all of those things that you profess to do anyhow so...?? And do you offer your services for free? If not, what makes what you do any different than these other professions that you claim are peddlers??

Homeopathy is debateable but it is only a tiny segment of the natural/alternative healing arena.

[Nefertiti]

Wow, there sure is a lot of hate in this thread that people make some pretty nasty assumptions. Two people have quoted my single post and then made disparaging remarks about homeopathy and natural medicine in the posts quoting me, even though I didn't endorse any particular form of medicine. By the way, for the sake of full disclosure, I'm married to an MD. :confused:

[SlapItHigh]

You didn't bring it on yourself but you may have been careless in not doing what you could to stop it. I don't know whether you were aware of this before you came down with the disease but whether you did or not you should be telling others this now rather than claiming it isn't a disease one brought on oneself.

I always check my body (and my children's bodies) thoroughly after going outside but I have still had many tick bites in my lifetime. You don't really know if the pp was careless. Some ticks are extremely small, hard to find and often hide in places that you can not see easily (groin, anal area, on top of your head, behind your ear, etc). It would be near impossible for me to find a tiny tick on my head beneath my hair. Also, a tick can be carried into the home by a third party or even if you carry one into your home unknowingly and it hops off on your way to the bathroom to give yourself a thorough once over it can find you again later (this has happened to me). I have found ticks in my home many days after I had even been outside at all.

[jmdrake]

First, an article by a newspaper talking about a study done on surgery for ruptured disks, that "might" not be needed is hardly sufficient evidence to determine that 'spinal surgery does not work'. Regardless, I never even brought up spinal surgery, I simply said there's little science behind chiropracty and there's simply no benefit and greater danger in seeing a chiropractor over a doctor. The "amazing randi" and his opinion is of little interest to me. Show me the peer reviewed research on chiropractors and I'll change my opinion.


I expect you to be able to do a LITTLE bit of your own research. Look up the study mentioned in the article about why back surgery isn't any better than the "placebo" effect, read it for yourself and THEN try to comment.

I only mentioned the "Amazing Randi" because someone else brought him up to try to "prove" that chiropractic techniques don't work. Since he was used as "proved" I added what he told me to undermine such "proof".

Finally I really could care less about your opinion. Honestly I couldn't. I know that it worked from my brother when he threw his back out. For a while he could barely walk. The treatments noticeably improved him to the point where he no longer has any problems. Would the same have happened if he had some other treatment? Maybe. Maybe it would have gotten better on its own. Clearly people who don't get back surgery do just as well as people who do. That's what the scientific evidence shows.



Side effects of chiropractic treatment: a prospective study.


That's nice. Now why don't you post a study about the scientific effects of surgery? Or all of the people who die in hospitals? Here's a news story about a study of the over 100,000 people that died from hospital infections in one year. Oh I know. It's a story about the study rather than the study itself. But I'm hoping you'll show enough initiative to look up the study for yourself.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/07/20/health/main515755.shtml

Finally let's stick to Dr. Paul's position. It's not just that alternative medicine shouldn't be covered by medicare but that NO medicine should be covered by medicare because ultimately medicare shouldn't exist. Yes there should be a "transition period" because you don't want to hurt the people who are currently dependent on it. But really the government shouldn't be picking "winners or losers". If you get back strain and want surgery you should feel free to get it as long as you're willing to pay for it yourself or the insurance that you chose to have is willing to cover it. Same for alternative medicine. People should make their own choices. I would never choose back surgery based on what I know and I doubt you'll ever choose to go to a chiropractor based on your own beliefs. So?

Regards,

John M. Drake

[BlindD]

Of course I agree with you, amigo! You are unique, just like everyone else! :-)
I imagine it has been a really rough road for you... so the deeper questions for you (deeper than the physical level) would be, "What's going on in my personal belief system(s) that may be causing this? How about my emotional balance - healthy? How about my spiritual outlook, sense of purpose and involvement with seeking truth?"
These are all very personal issues, but that is where the miracles exist.
And, whilst examining these very personal areas, attend diligently to the healthiest physical lifestyle you can manage, and see what happens.
And meanwhile, we enlighten the masses to freedom & RP.
BD


Well, you know what, Blind, if you're in that 2%, it damn sure matters! You know, it's kind of the reason why our founders gave us a Republic vs. a Democracy, isn't it. So the force of the majority couldn't impose their will on the minority, or the one. Because if you are that ONE, your rights, or health, matters quite a lot. It matters little what works on the majority, if you are that one person and you should have the freedom to treat your problem in the way that you see fit. Without big pharma, big government, nor anyone else who thinks they have all the wisdom of the ages, to force their personal opinions on you.

[LibertyEagle]

Of course I agree with you, amigo! You are unique, just like everyone else! :-)
I imagine it has been a really rough road for you... so the deeper questions for you (deeper than the physical level) would be, "What's going on in my personal belief system(s) that may be causing this? How about my emotional balance - healthy? How about my spiritual outlook, sense of purpose and involvement with seeking truth?"These are all very personal issues, but that is where the miracles exist.

And, whilst examining these very personal areas, attend diligently to the healthiest physical lifestyle you can manage, and see what happens.
And meanwhile, we enlighten the masses to freedom & RP.
BD


BD, you sound like a bigger nutcase than a few of the alternative practitioners that I have met along the way. I mean, seriously now. :rolleyes:

My personal belief systems, as you put it, are what enabled me to get through it, while others might have given up.

Note: You seriously need to check your self-righteous attitude. It makes you sound like a snake oil salesman. Either that or Jimmy Swaggart.

[BlindD]

I think this is partly true but you are being quite a bit narrow minded, judgemental and simplistic.
If I say gravity is reality, that you must abide by it, you cannot do otherwise, you cannot pay someone else to neutralize gravity for you, and to fight it is always ignorant and destructive... you would call me narrow-minded, judgmental and simplistic?
Nature has laws. Inviolable laws. You either learn them, understand them and follow them, or you pay the price in destructive consequences. Same goes for biology and health care.
I don't really care what you think of me, I am merely the messenger. If you want to learn more about freedom in all areas of your life, you will be wise to drop all preconceived assumptions and beliefs, and learn anew.


First of all, good health is complicated today because of what our world has become. Polution and overuse of our soil (without giving time for nutrients to replenish) leads to some pretty poor foods. Living healthfully is a bit complicated in today's world.Regardless of pollution and other problems, one still has to live healthfully to be healthy. No way around that.


So you are better than the whole of all of those professions? What a ballsy claim! "I" am not better. It is the message, the concept, the understanding, the reality of Natural Hygiene that is better - FAR better.
http://chetday.com/sniadach.html
Like RP, I speak of freedom and intelligence in regards to health care. Ignorance and superstition is backwards, as are the so-called "health professions" that are based on them.
Understanding freedom and liberty, one knows that the use of force cannot be morally or ethically used, except in self-defense. Force = slavery. As is stated in the article:
"Therapy - The treatment of disease by the application of some kind of force (whether mechanical, chemical, thermal, electrical or other) to the body to alter its structure or function. The key word in the definition of therapy is force. Therapy forces change upon the body. The force applied may be harsh or gentle; it may be pleasant or painful; it may be applied internally or externally; but without force there is no therapy. With therapy, there is always the possibility of producing adverse effects, and sometimes this is a certainty. This is because the essence of therapy is often not merely force, but outright violence against the body's structure or function."(7)

So you see, Natural Hygiene is consistent with freedom, not medical or health care slavery.
All claims aside, look for yourself and see for yourself. Try it yourself for 3 months. Watch and feel what happens. Then you will know for yourself. Forget claims and propaganda. See for yourself.



My ND does all of those things that you profess to do anyhow so...??And most likely your ND still thinks in terms of treating people and curing diseases. This is the fundamental false belief that he holds to. A true understanding of disease and 'curing' is what (nearly) everyone is missing.



And do you offer your services for free?Sometimes, yes. When someone cannot afford it, I consider it, or a sliding scale.
But truly, understanding of how nature and nature's laws work is a priceless thing. There can be no value put to it. How do you value permanent recovery from severe hypertension, type II diabetes, cardiovascular disease, depression, arthritis, lupus, etc., etc? What is that worth to you? Instead of paying tens of thousands to drug peddlers and remedy peddlers for treatments that never work permanently, why not pay a small sum to learn how to keep yourself well for the rest of your life?
The truth is that nearly no one is capable or courageous enough to question their own false belief system... because that means admitting that they were wrong. The whole of society is trying to keep you enslaved 24/7/365. It takes a very courageous spirit to break free from this.



If not, what makes what you do any different than these other professions that you claim are peddlers??I have nothing to sell except high-quality information. I do not peddle drugs, treatments, remedies, nostrums, pills, elixers, or any other garbage. I used to do all of that; now I know better. I was presented with a much higher truth in regards to excellence in health care, and my own conscience required me to abandon my former career and only speak the truth about it. I offer education in self-care, self-reliance, self-determination, self-fulfillment.

[SlapItHigh]

That's nice. Now why don't you post a study about the scientific effects of surgery? Or all of the people who die in hospitals?

Oooh, burn! We have a 5% chance of getting an infection just for simply being in the hospital for treatment and that doesn't include any of the side effects for the actual treatment.

[DJ RP]

:S there are a lot of weird things being said on this thread.

I worry about people who don't believe in the scientific method.

I wonder how many people on these boards do not believe in evolution and favour intelligent design....

There is a logical fallacy going on with some arguments.

1) Some big corporations are corrupt and monopolistic
*therefore*
3) This alternative treament which cannot be proven to work should be taken seriously.

There is a fallacy. really. Here's another one.

1) Goverment is secretive and can abuse power
*therefore*
2) 9/11 was an inside job

Or

1) 9/11 was committed by people from the middle east
*therefore*
3) Invade the middle east.


I do not like this kind of thinking.

[SlapItHigh]

Regardless of pollution and other problems, one still has to live healthfully to be healthy. No way around that.

I'm not saying you can cheat and be healthy without living healthfully. I am saying sometimes a person needs assistance to live healthfully. Sometimes a person does everything right but the food is missing what a person needs to maintain health or other toxins are in their food causing other problems. Sometimes the foods needed to maintain good health are not available.


"I" am not better. It is the message, the concept, the understanding, the reality of Natural Hygiene that is better - FAR better.

Like I said, some of the people you are bashing send the very same message that you do. So you are no better than them.


And most likely your ND still thinks in terms of treating people and curing diseases. This is the fundamental false belief that he holds to. A true understanding of disease and 'curing' is what (nearly) everyone is missing.

No my ND does not think in those terms. I've never heard an ND who does. Your comments show that you know little about those you profess to be better than. NDs and other alternatives to MDs do talk of Natural Hygiene, but most do not limit themselves to that area. Not all problems arise from not living healthy and not all problems can be resolved by living healthy. For example, when I found out my baby was breech at 38 weeks, I went to a chiro for the Webster Technique which immediately allowed my rather large baby to flip to the vertex position. Nothing you are saying would have helped me.



Sometimes, yes. When someone cannot afford it, I consider it, or a sliding scale.

So the answer was yes, you do charge. I'm sure you don't think others in the professions you bash do not also consider a sliding scale or free if the consumer can't afford it.


But truly, understanding of how nature and nature's laws work is a priceless thing. There can be no value put to it. How do you value permanent recovery from severe hypertension, type II diabetes, cardiovascular disease, depression, arthritis, lupus, etc., etc? What is that worth to you? Instead of paying tens of thousands to drug peddlers and remedy peddlers for treatments that never work permanently, why not pay a small sum to learn how to keep yourself well for the rest of your life?

And yet you do put a value on it as you charge your customers. I'll tell you that I paid $35 for the Webster Technique instead of the hundreds of dollars that would have been charged to the federal government had I gone for an external cephalic version or the thousands of dollars that would have been charged to the federal government had I been unsuccessful and ended up with a c-section.


The truth is that nearly no one is capable or courageous enough to question their own false belief system... because that means admitting that they were wrong.

pot meet kettle.

[SlapItHigh]

I worry about people who don't believe in the scientific method.


Not all science is good science. Furthermore, some in this thread don't have a good grasp on the scientific evidence they profess to following.

[BlindD]

DJ RP alludes to the MAIN point, as far as everything we are interested in.

Everyone here connects with the message of freedom the Dr. Paul espouses. It is freedom that is attractive - it attracts high-consciousness people to it, naturally. Because freedom is a high-consciousness understanding. Slavery is low-consciousness.

Surely everyone here also wonders why the whole USA, all 301,139,947 of us, don't totally back RP for president? Why doesn't everyone easily see what freedom is, how it feels, what it provides, its value, integrity and benefits?

Why not?

Because most people, a definite majority, simply cannot comprehend freedom and liberty. What they cannot understand, they fear. And of the ones who can comprehend it, many, many of them are too fearful and/or addicted to the 'perks' of slavery to jump on freedom's horse and ride.

What's his face... Tucker on tv... he said it well (paraphrased), "Most people (middle class) do not really want the responsibilities of freedom. They want to be taken care of and told what to do."

Most people cannot think logically, rationally, analytically, common sensically. They just can't. And you cannot force them to. It's like trying to force a 1-month old infant to stand up and walk before it is able. You just can't. It is not capable yet.

Truly the only chance we have to get RP elected is to cause such an uproar of positive message that it becomes 'cool', 'fascinating' or otherwise attractive to the sheep to follow us..... just because the message is so strong and the Paulians are having so much fun.

[RP4ME]

:)

well that the problem - alternative medicine rarely can get to trial b/c there is no money in it ...not enough to make it worthwhile to fund the trials in vivo....sorry but its the truth.....also when they do occur they are usully funded by Pharma who rigs the trials in orser to discredit it.....so woudl it have worked mybe yes mybe no but it didnt get fair shake.....no science there my friends.....

[RP4ME]

It seems that you don't know much about chiropractors or Ron Paul's position on healthcare or the assault on alternative medicine is facing from the federal government. Chiropractors have been very helpful for people I know who have had lower back pain. If I had that problem myself I would go to one LONG before I would go to some surgeon who would charge my insurance thousands of dollars for a procedure that has NOT been proven to work.

http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/11/22/news/surgery.php

Also Ron Paul's position is NOT to increase medicare benefits simply because we can't afford to do so. Speaking on the PBS show recently "The News Hour" he clearly said that he would keep the current program where it is while working to eventually transition people out of the program. He criticized both the prescription drug benefit and "schip" as new programs that we simply don't have to funding to do. He would continue funding medicare at its current level based on money saved from closing foreign military bases including places like Japan and Germany. Also recall that Dr. Paul has over the used refused medicare payments for his own medical practice. Instead he's negotiated with his own poor patients for lower rates.

However right now alternative medicine is under attack by people who want to regulate it out of business. They aren't fighting for medicare money but rather fighting for the right to continue doing their trade at all. Please educate yourself on these and other issues.

Regards,

John M. Drake

MDs who practive integrative medicine or functional medicine that seekst root causes to ones illness before putting you on the latest drug for say RLS are being run out of business b/c the medical review boards go after them for practicing differntly its often b/c they are so effective and other drs. lose patients and turn them in....Dr. are supposed to be able to recommend what they feel is best for you.....and you pay them for that...they are losing their licenses for doing things like NOT prescribing phramceuticals but maybe solving problems in gentler ways with herbs or supplemenst or diet......We are also getting ready to lose supllements and herbs in this country!!! We wont have choices ....we will have only pills that Pharma promotes!!!! great reason to elect the good dr.....

The FDA just banned raw almost b/c tehy say they are dangerous yet thousands died on Celebrex......teh almonds are banned b/c they are so healthy for you........get it...they wnt to control our food and medicine which will control our life and death.....

[Ninja Homer]

well that the problem - alternative medicine rarely can get to trial b/c there is no money in it ...not enough to make it worthwhile to fund the trials in vivo....sorry but its the truth.....also when they do occur they are usully funded by Pharma who rigs the trials in orser to discredit it.....so woudl it have worked mybe yes mybe no but it didnt get fair shake.....no science there my friends.....

Big Pharma also owns most of the companies that do the clinical trials. They can re-test a potential drug until they get the results they want.

Also, I personally don't think that the scientific method works well when it comes to treating the human body. The placebo effect is a very real effect. Some people can be healed with a sugar pill and the suggestion that it will heal them. How effective it is varies from person to person, and it can also vary based on how well the person administering the sugar pill convinced the person they gave it to. A scientific trial never takes everything into account. Then you can look at it from a quantum physics point of view, which shows that the observer always has an effect on the observed.

When it comes to the human body, I think empirical evidence is a lot more important than scientific evidence. A lot of the alternative medicines that are popular today are a revival of old medicines that have been proven by empirical evidence. Take a look at Ayurvedic medicine, for instance, which is over 3000 years old. Over 3000 years of empirical evidence, and then allopathic medicine comes in and says that it doesn't work until it can be proven to work by their methods.

Modern medicine is now the #1 cause of death in the US:
http://www.advancedhealthplan.com/leadingcauseofdeath.html

No wonder alternatives are popular!

[davidkachel]

Homeopathy is total and complete garbage.

As for chiropracty, I assume some of it's valid but much of it might be bullshit.

Such blatant, willful and vile ignorance. Where does all this anger come from?
Based on the fact you cannot even spell Chiropractic, I'm guessing you have no real knowledge of the subject at all(?) Perhaps you are just regurgitating some of the old AMA propaganda that was discovered to have come out of an overt and blatant plot by the AMA against Chiropractors, a plot that was proven in court years ago. The Chiropractors won, the AMA lost. Period. Case closed. It was all lies. You just weren't paying attention that day.

I would venture to guess your 'assumption that some of it is valid' carries no more weight than the other half of your statement because you haven't the slightest hint of an idea what you are talking about.

There is validity to almost all of the health care professions. Most medical doctors worth their salt will tell you this. (I mention medical doctors only because they seem to be the only practitioners you will permit any credibility.) That you don't think so means nothing unless you have some kind of background that carries some weight.

And for your information, there IS evidence to support the Homeopathic theory. I know this because I happen to be the person who discovered one particular bit of it, while doing research in the completely unrelated field of photo-chemistry. I was neither knowledgeable nor interested in Homeopathy and the import to Homeopathy of what I had found didn't even dawn on me for several years after the fact.

In the interest of full disclosure: I am a retired 1975 graduate of the Palmer College of Chiropractic, not a Homeopath, have been published in the area of photography about 75 times and have little patience for loud-mouthed ignoramuses eager to share their ignorance with the rest of the world.

The conventional medical approach to health care is diametrically opposed to the approach taken by Chiropractors, Homeopaths, Naturopaths, etc. You will have finally learned something when you realize that despite this apparent incompatibility, BOTH approaches are valid and BOTH approaches can be applied simultaneously. The best benefit I have seen for patients is when two or more disciplines work together. There is room and need for both and the value of one does not cancel out the value of the other. And personally, I'll take a sharp practitioner of ANY discipline over a dimwitted practitioner any day. Medicine (in the general sense) is an ART, NOT A SCIENCE and people who don't get that distinction are fools.

Fortunately for all of us, most medical doctors are not as ignorant or arrogant as you.

Now, could we maybe get back to the business of getting Ron Paul elected and stop parading our ignorance for all to see?

[DJ RP]

Big Pharma also owns most of the companies that do the clinical trials. They can re-test a potential drug until they get the results they want.

Also, I personally don't think that the scientific method works well when it comes to treating the human body. The placebo effect is a very real effect. Some people can be healed with a sugar pill and the suggestion that it will heal them. How effective it is varies from person to person, and it can also vary based on how well the person administering the sugar pill convinced the person they gave it to. A scientific trial never takes everything into account. Then you can look at it from a quantum physics point of view, which shows that the observer always has an effect on the observed.

When it comes to the human body, I think empirical evidence is a lot more important than scientific evidence. A lot of the alternative medicines that are popular today are a revival of old medicines that have been proven by empirical evidence. Take a look at Ayurvedic medicine, for instance, which is over 3000 years old. Over 3000 years of empirical evidence, and then allopathic medicine comes in and says that it doesn't work until it can be proven to work by their methods.

Modern medicine is now the #1 cause of death in the US:
http://www.advancedhealthplan.com/leadingcauseofdeath.html

No wonder alternatives are popular!

Big companies doing their own trials and coming to their own conclusions does not equal 'random alternative medicine works' IT STILL NEEDS TO BE TESTED. BUT PROPERLY.

I mean homeopathy for instance is easy to test. We could do it. As long as you do it properly and don't cheat you can find out for yourselves.

There's no mystery here. If something can be shown to work then do it. But don't get upset if the data does not match a pet theory.

And quantum physics? Ummmm. I don't think that's an issue.

Some people are a little resistant to science. Science is the reason we can promote ron paul through the internet on our computers, why rp can fly aeroplanes around the country, why we have electricity and yes, why our life expectancy is at an all time high (the increase has happened in the last 100 years due to western medicine, the biggest incraese simply being through an increase of hygeine. the 3000 years of hit and miss experiments before that really didn't change things an awful lot).

[BlindD]

I'm not saying you can cheat and be healthy without living healthfully. I am saying sometimes a person needs assistance to live healthfully. Sometimes a person does everything right but the food is missing what a person needs to maintain health or other toxins are in their food causing other problems. Sometimes the foods needed to maintain good health are not available.
Agreed.
The point I bring up is that 98 out of 100 people I work with firmly believe they 'need' this or that treatment, therapy, supplement or crutch. But once they learn the deeper understanding of what is going on, they are able to abandon the crutches.


Like I said, some of the people you are bashing send the very same message that you do. So you are no better than them.Never claimed better. Simply stated it as I see it, along with 25 years experience dealing with it.


No my ND does not think in those terms. I've never heard an ND who does. If your ND prescribes herbal remedies, homeopathics, lots of supplements, hot/cold therapies and all the rest, then he/she most certainly does not really understand what they are doing. They are only treating symptoms and not getting to the real cause of the problem. Or, they do understand and they do not have enough integrity to admit it and tell the truth.
I have met dozens of MD's, ND's, DC's, and DO's who, when these basic realities are explained to them, will admit that the message is much more correct than the assumptions they currently operate from. But, they cannot or will not give up the pride, prestige, money, standing and power that they have. In other words, their ego prohibits them from taking the higher road.


Your comments show that you know little about those you profess to be better than.I have professional training as a licensed doctor.


NDs and other alternatives to MDs do talk of Natural Hygiene, but most do not limit themselves to that area.They give lip service to it, and then quickly jump back to their pills, potions and treatments because that's where the money is.


Not all problems arise from not living healthy and not all problems can be resolved by living healthy. For example, when I found out my baby was breech at 38 weeks, I went to a chiro for the Webster Technique which immediately allowed my rather large baby to flip to the vertex position. Nothing you are saying would have helped me. Of course there are the odd exceptions. You, (like me sometimes) and everyone else, tends to focus on the odd exception in order to angrily negate that the vast majority can easily and cheaply get well permanently.
I see this every day. I speak simple truths to sick people, and they rebel and make excuses - every excuse you can imagine. They get all emotional about it and instantly lose any possibility of rational thinking. In other words, people want to be 'right', no matter what. That's what an ego does: creates a belief, sticks to it no matter what, and gets all emotional if it is challenged. The simple fact is that people do not really want to get well. They would rather have their temporary pleasures and addictions rather than live well, think clearly and wisely. Pretty bizarre. But that's people for ya.


So the answer was yes, you do charge. I'm sure you don't think others in the professions you bash do not also consider a sliding scale or free if the consumer can't afford it.I assume everyone places value on their expertise and charges accordingly. What does this have to do with anything we are talking about?


And yet you do put a value on it as you charge your customers. I'll tell you that I paid $35 for the Webster Technique instead of the hundreds of dollars that would have been charged to the federal government had I gone for an external cephalic version or the thousands of dollars that would have been charged to the federal government had I been unsuccessful and ended up with a c-section.Good for you! Glad to hear it. You did your research, found a smarter alternative, found someone who knew what they are doing, and acted accordingly. Excellent!
There are most definitely times when assistance is helpful and needed. What I am saying is that 99% of the time it is NOT necessary, it is expensive, and often destructive. The 1% of the time it is necessary, it should be chosen and acted upon rationally.
The real question is, "How do I know when it is really necessary? How do I know when 'experts' and peddlers are trying to take advantage of me?"
The only way to know that answer is to learn and understand what health really is, what disease really is, the simple facts about how the body works, and the basic simple needs of the body. Provide those needs intelligently and you are home free. At least 99% of the time! Pretty good odds, if you ask me.

[SlapItHigh]

The FDA just banned raw almost b/c tehy say they are dangerous yet thousands died on Celebrex......teh almonds are banned b/c they are so healthy for you........get it...they wnt to control our food and medicine which will control our life and death.....

The sale of raw milk is also banned in many (most?) areas. It reminds me of socialism - harming the many to help the few. Instead of dealing with the causes of the off chance of risk with raw milk, they just kill all the milk so that it harms everyone equally.

[LibertyEagle]

I have professional training as a licensed doctor.



What kind of doctor?


That's what an ego does: creates a belief, sticks to it no matter what, and gets all emotional if it is challenged.

Interesting that you say that. I agree. ;)

[SlapItHigh]

The point I bring up is that 98 out of 100 people I work with firmly believe they 'need' this or that treatment, therapy, supplement or crutch. But once they learn the deeper understanding of what is going on, they are able to abandon the crutches.

Many of the professionals that you bash would make similar claims about the consumers who come to them as well.


Never claimed better. Simply stated it as I see it, along with 25 years experience dealing with it.

Yeah, you did. You stated that all other health professionals are useless with the exception of yourself. That may be your perception after years of experience but that is still the claim you made.


If your ND prescribes herbal remedies, homeopathics, lots of supplements, hot/cold therapies and all the rest, then he/she most certainly does not really understand what they are doing. They are only treating symptoms and not getting to the real cause of the problem. Or, they do understand and they do not have enough integrity to admit it and tell the truth.
I have met dozens of MD's, ND's, DC's, and DO's who, when these basic realities are explained to them, will admit that the message is much more correct than the assumptions they currently operate from. But, they cannot or will not give up the pride, prestige, money, standing and power that they have. In other words, their ego prohibits them from taking the higher road.

I don't need to comment much on this. I think it is obvious to most (all?) reading that you are making gross inaccurate generalizations. Many of these professions take root in getting to the real cause of the problem instead of treating symptoms. That was the first thing my ND talked to me about when I sought her care. It is MDs who more often do the things you claim the others in the natural medicine arena do.


I have professional training as a licensed doctor.

Thank you for sharing, but that had nothing to do with what you responded to.



Of course there are the odd exceptions. You, (like me sometimes) and everyone else, tends to focus on the odd exception in order to angrily negate that the vast majority can easily and cheaply get well permanently.

Nope, the above statements do not relate to any posts I have made here. Breech presentation is not some freak rarity. People seek help from HCPs for problems, not everyday occurrences. Nothing I have written has been angry - what an odd thing to say. Take NDs for example. NDs do promote the fact that most situations can be avoided and resolved by living healthfully yet you continue to profess that they are useless and you are not.


I assume everyone places value on their expertise and charges accordingly. What does this have to do with anything we are talking about?

Please ask yourself this question, not me. You are the one who went on and on about how your services are "priceless". I do find it odd that you claim all other HCPs are peddlers yet all you have is knowledge to provide. Knowledge that you could simply offer for free on a website somewhere. Obviously, you can charge whatever you want but if someone is performing a service or a technique or supplements they have to charge in order to not actively go into the hole. Yet they are the peddlers? Interesting view.

Also, your 99% and 1% figures are far from factual.

[RP4ME]

I'm sorry to hear about your Lyme Disease. However, you aren't helping others by not stating the full facts about the disease and that is that there is a simple way it can be prevented in many cases and that is to inspect your body carefully for ticks and remove them immediately if you happen to spend time in the woods or other places where the ticks are prevalent. You didn't bring it on yourself but you may have been careless in not doing what you could to stop it. I don't know whether you were aware of this before you came down with the disease but whether you did or not you should be telling others this now rather than claiming it isn't a disease one brought on oneself.

http://arthritis.webmd.com/tc/lyme-disease-prevention

Dont you dare lecture me! YOu are out of touch...I suggest you reserach teh disease a little bit becuse you know very little.

The ticks cannot be seen with a naked eye... in many cases they are as small as a this "."

Wearing proetctive cloting, spraying doesnt garuntee JACK...it is also belived to vectored in other ways.....besides ticks they have found it in pasteurized cows milk, sperm, cooked beefnd they have found the bacteria in the air....and it can be aerosolized....so to even say it came form tick may be a stretch these days..... but thanks for pointing the finger thast was realy helpful

[RP4ME]

And breast cancer is preventable by having a mastectomy or prostate cancer preventable by having a prostectomy. This is simply absurd.

Are type 1 diabetes, multiple sclerosis, spina bifida, kleinfelter's syndrome, etc. etc. etc. all self inflicted diseases? This is what irks me about homeopathic medicine.

Homeopathic medicinen doesnt blame teh victim like Nefertiti seems to want to.....she is not representing Hoempathic or Alt. Medicine ...dont worry i am heavily involved in alt medicine and I think this righteous pompous attitude sux!

[RP4ME]

Not exactly true. The original poster FALSE CLAIMED that the reason the alternative medicine crowd would support Ron Paul is because they want to get medicare. That's called a "straw man argument". Nobody from the chiropractor side asked for money for medicare or medicade, yet the original poster falsely claimed that they would support the Ron Paul campaign because they want federal money. It was an underhanded on the sly attack. The reason people in the alternative medicine movement support Dr. Paul is that they simply want to be able to continue to practice their trade. To claim they would support a candidate that wants to PHASE OUT medicare just so that they can GET medicare is beyond the pale of stupidity. It reminds me of crap I've read at the DailyKos that claim Ron Paul has to be "stopped" because he's going to let people sell "poison vitamins".

Regards,

John M. Drake

Amen and amen!

[RP4ME]

Wow... a lot of stuff going on in this thread. I'm tempted to reply to a lot of it, but I'll try to keep it to a minimum.

I've studied all kinds of alternative health for a long time. If anybody wants advice on curing anything through alternative means, shoot me a PM; I'd be happy to help by giving you all the info I have on it and pointing you in the right direction.

I actually first heard of Dr. Paul through an alternative health newsletter. A lot of people are now into alternative health, and I think most of them would vote for Dr. Paul. It's a huge group of people that I think would be good to spread the word of Dr. Paul to. Just take a look at http://curezone.com. There are currently 9288 visitors there, and if you do a search for "Ron Paul" there are only 108 results.

I want to address Lyme disease. It's one of the worst diseases in history and it's a lot more widespread than most people think. Read this article:
http://www.samento.com.ec/sciencelib/sarticles/thegreatimpostor.html

Here's some highlights from the article. How Lyme is spread:


Lyme mimics diseases:


How to properly test for Lyme:


How to cure Lyme:


For more info on Lyme, and possible cures, here's the Lyme forum at curezone.com:
http://curezone.com/forums/f.asp?f=58
Many recommend the herb Cat's Claw, along with mega-doses of vitamin C, under observation of your alternative health practitioner of course.

Another thing that many Lyme sufferers are having success with is a relatively new product called "Miracle Mineral Supplement." Google it, or read about it here:
http://ener-chi.com/mms.htm

:)

[RP4ME]

Oh, by the way there were "homeopathic" cough drops in the bathroom counter. I looked at them to figure out why they weren't working, then I saw the words "homeopathic" and understood why. Then I got real cough drops with oral analgesic and those worked.

Odd, how homeopathic "treatments" don't work.

Wow - super scientific of you!

[BlindD]

Good points DJ.
Now, let's take it further. What is scientific about putting alien, artificial substances and chemical compounds into the body in the first place?
Proper intelligent, unbiased scientific inquiry would say:
1. The body is constructed such that it has certain needs to function properly and healthfully - optimal food, clean water, clean air, sunlight, proper rest and sleep, activity/exercise, etc., etc.
2. Optimally providing these needs requires we understand the actual anatomy and physiology of the body, and how to most naturally and harmoniously supply the proper needs.
3. Anything and everything else that is not of the proper needs of a healthy body absolutely should not go into a healthy or sick body. In other words, a chemical that is foreign to the body should never enter the body, period. That which the body cannot use for the creation, repair and maintenance of itself (its cells) is toxic and poisonous. No question about it
4. Therefore, all artificial, alien and foreign substances should never go into the body. If they do, the body has to exert great effort to encapsulate, neutralize and expel the toxic material. This seriously weakens the body, setting the stage for disease.
5. If disease does occur, due to an overload of toxic material within it, then illness results. Illness is the grand elimination effort instituted by the body to rid itself of toxic garbage and anything artificial/foreign to it, including drugs, homeopathics, herbal remedies, most supplements, etc.
6. The illness and its symptoms ARE the cure for the underlying condition - toxicosis. When you have influenza, the fever and elimination that is occurring IS the cure for the toxic overload present in the body. The last thing anyone in their right mind should do is to swallow EVEN MORE toxic garbage called drugs, remedies, cough suppressants, decongestants, etc., etc. That is just adding more virulent toxins to an already toxic body. Not intelligent, scientific or of common sense.

So, relying on so-called scientific studies of the efficacy of synthesized chemicals foreign to the body is a pointless waste of time, energy, intelligence and money.


Big companies doing their own trials and coming to their own conclusions does not equal 'random alternative medicine works' IT STILL NEEDS TO BE TESTED. BUT PROPERLY.

I mean homeopathy for instance is easy to test. We could do it. As long as you do it properly and don't cheat you can find out for yourselves.

There's no mystery here. If something can be shown to work then do it. But don't get upset if the data does not match a pet theory.

And quantum physics? Ummmm. I don't think that's an issue.

Some people are a little resistant to science. Science is the reason we can promote ron paul through the internet on our computers, why rp can fly aeroplanes around the country, why we have electricity and yes, why our life expectancy is at an all time high (the increase has happened in the last 100 years due to western medicine, the biggest incraese simply being through an increase of hygeine. the 3000 years of hit and miss experiments before that really didn't change things an awful lot).

[davidkachel]

I have professional training as a licensed doctor.

And then there is always the exception.

Most of the legitimate practitioners of non-traditional medicine that I know are proud of what they do and don't have to be asked twice to name their profession. In fact, they don't have to be asked at all.

The only person(s) I have ever heard say anything like "I have professional training as a licensed doctor." (sic), didn't, and wasn't.

So, would you like to post your credentials or leave everyone to draw an unflattering conclusion?

[RP4ME]

I always check my body (and my children's bodies) thoroughly after going outside but I have still had many tick bites in my lifetime. You don't really know if the pp was careless. Some ticks are extremely small, hard to find and often hide in places that you can not see easily (groin, anal area, on top of your head, behind your ear, etc). It would be near impossible for me to find a tiny tick on my head beneath my hair. Also, a tick can be carried into the home by a third party or even if you carry one into your home unknowingly and it hops off on your way to the bathroom to give yourself a thorough once over it can find you again later (this has happened to me). I have found ticks in my home many days after I had even been outside at all.

Eaxctly....I did live in high risk area but b/c MDs dont reckognize the illness it is not publicized. I found out later i was in a highly endemic area in NoVA plus I rode horses, so with grooming, turn out etc there is plenty of room for exposure..i also have a dog.....but I know many people who have had hundreds of bites and didnt come down with LYME..... its a roulette. Also many drs. belive most peopeel have been exposed to Lyme b/c it is so prevelant but like HIV versus AIDS only some go on to develop full blown Lyme......

[BlindD]

The sale of raw milk is also banned in many (most?) areas. It reminds me of socialism - harming the many to help the few. Instead of dealing with the causes of the off chance of risk with raw milk, they just kill all the milk so that it harms everyone equally.

Of course the FDA and related lowly organisms (!) want to control you for their profit and power; that's a given. Small human ego's in action. RP may greatly help in that regard.

The other pertinent point to your remark is this, "Why would a human want to climb under a cow and suck its milk? Pretty bizarre, eh? Do adult cows come hankering adult female humans for their milk? Cow's milk is for baby cows. Human milk is for baby humans. That's it. After weaning, milk-drinking ceases for every animal in nature... except oblivious humans. Humans are made to drink mother's milk for a year or two, then wean from it and never have milk again, just as it happens with all of nature's baby mammals.

These are the fundamentals I speak about that hardly anyone seems to understand or questions their beliefs.

[RP4ME]

BD, you sound like a bigger nutcase than a few of the alternative practitioners that I have met along the way. I mean, seriously now. :rolleyes:

My personal belief systems, as you put it, are what enabled me to get through it, while others might have given up.

Note: You seriously need to check your self-righteous attitude. It makes you sound like a snake oil salesman. Either that or Jimmy Swaggart.

I mean yes everyone in every situation can and shoudl take theri spiritual temperature.....I suggest to blindd you read the Book of JOB.....and seeif you dont take away that soemtimes calamity in our own lives isnt caused by any sin of ours despiet how many friends may come along to tell us that!

[davidkachel]

Check please!

[RP4ME]

:S there are a lot of weird things being said on this thread.

I worry about people who don't believe in the scientific method.

I wonder how many people on these boards do not believe in evolution and favour intelligent design

****I say I dont have teh answerr b/c evolution is still at best a theory and inteliigent deisgn to me can also include evolution or preclude it...so that isnt the proper comparison............to not belive in evolution does not mean you retarded in your resoning abilities....sorry that thinking is troubiling!

There is a logical fallacy going on with some arguments.

1) Some big corporations are corrupt and monopolistic
*therefore*
3) This alternative treament which cannot be proven to work should be taken seriously.

***************Not saying that at all, I am saying they arent given a chance. i belive in science as well. nd i think ist very important to rigourously develop and test lt. medicine.....I strongly belive that but in today sclimate its very hard to do that.,.......Some will not work....so be it!

There is a fallacy. really. Here's another one.

1) Goverment is secretive and can abuse power
*therefore*
2) 9/11 was an inside job ***********Who said that?????Not me....

Or

1) 9/11 was committed by people from the middle east
*therefore*
3) Invade the middle east.*************Where did that enter into any discussion........


I do not like this kind of thinking.


Me neither

[BlindD]

The reason I do not state my degree and licensure is because it does not matter in the least. I only say it to demonstrate that I have 'been through the mill', paid my dues, did the internships and residencies, got the diplomas, certifications, licenses and all the fancy frames to mount them on the walls. Played that game for a few years, knowing inside that something was seriously wrong with the whole system.
Then I heard the truth and woke up from my dreamstate.
Removed all the fancy frames from the wall and set out to help wake up anyone else who wanted it.
Most don't want it; some do. Of those who do, most are not really willing to do what it takes to wake up. A very few are willing. They are the people that are the most fun to hang out with.
BD




And then there is always the exception.

Most of the legitimate practitioners of non-traditional medicine that I know are proud of what they do and don't have to be asked twice to name their profession. In fact, they don't have to be asked at all.

The only person(s) I have ever heard say anything like "I have professional training as a licensed doctor." (sic), didn't, and wasn't.

So, would you like to post your credentials or leave everyone to draw an unflattering conclusion?

[SlapItHigh]

The other pertinent point to your remark is this, "Why would a human want to climb under a cow and suck its milk? Pretty bizarre, eh? Do adult cows come hankering adult female humans for their milk? Cow's milk is for baby cows. Human milk is for baby humans. That's it. After weaning, milk-drinking ceases for every animal in nature... except oblivious humans. Humans are made to drink mother's milk for a year or two, then wean from it and never have milk again, just as it happens with all of nature's baby mammals.

These are the fundamentals I speak about that hardly anyone seems to understand or questions their beliefs.

Ok, I'll admit to getting a good chuckle out of this post! I laugh as I sit here and type while my 2 year old is nursing. First of all, you are wrong. Human's aren't made to drink mother's milk for a year or two. They are meant to drink mother's milk for 2.5 to 6.5 years. You might benefit from doing some research on this topic. Check out writings from Dr. Katherine A. Dettwyler, PhD, associate professor of anthropology and nutrition at Texas A&M University.

But, will your ego allow you to admit that you are wrong about that ;) ?

Regardless, some still find advantages of drinking cow's milk later in life. Human's do a lot of things that no other animals do. I'm not a big fan of cow's milk but if I ever use it, I'd want it to be raw for sure. FWIW, raw goat's milk is more suited to the human digestive system.

[davidkachel]

The reason I do not state my degree and licensure is because it does not matter in the least. I only say it to demonstrate that I have 'been through the mill', paid my dues, did the internships and residencies, got the diplomas, certifications, licenses and all the fancy frames to mount them on the walls...
BD

I don't think you realize just how completely and utterly transparent that statement is.
The reason you don't state your degree and licensure is because you don't have them:

David Kachel
Graduate, Palmer College of Chiropractic
Class of 1975

Instructor / International College of Chiropractic / Melbourne, Australia 1979- 1980

Licenses: Arizona, New Mexico, Australia, Peru (all expired licenses due to my being retired, but still researchable)

Now, if you can't do the same, you are clearly a fraud. So stop wasting everyone's time with what is plainly nonsense.

[DJ RP]

Good points DJ.
Now, let's take it further. What is scientific about putting alien, artificial substances and chemical compounds into the body in the first place?
Proper intelligent, unbiased scientific inquiry would say:
1. The body is constructed such that it has certain needs to function properly and healthfully - optimal food, clean water, clean air, sunlight, proper rest and sleep, activity/exercise, etc., etc.
2. Optimally providing these needs requires we understand the actual anatomy and physiology of the body, and how to most naturally and harmoniously supply the proper needs.
3. Anything and everything else that is not of the proper needs of a healthy body absolutely should not go into a healthy or sick body. In other words, a chemical that is foreign to the body should never enter the body, period. That which the body cannot use for the creation, repair and maintenance of itself (its cells) is toxic and poisonous. No question about it
4. Therefore, all artificial, alien and foreign substances should never go into the body. If they do, the body has to exert great effort to encapsulate, neutralize and expel the toxic material. This seriously weakens the body, setting the stage for disease.
5. If disease does occur, due to an overload of toxic material within it, then illness results. Illness is the grand elimination effort instituted by the body to rid itself of toxic garbage and anything artificial/foreign to it, including drugs, homeopathics, herbal remedies, most supplements, etc.
6. The illness and its symptoms ARE the cure for the underlying condition - toxicosis. When you have influenza, the fever and elimination that is occurring IS the cure for the toxic overload present in the body. The last thing anyone in their right mind should do is to swallow EVEN MORE toxic garbage called drugs, remedies, cough suppressants, decongestants, etc., etc. That is just adding more virulent toxins to an already toxic body. Not intelligent, scientific or of common sense.

So, relying on so-called scientific studies of the efficacy of synthesized chemicals foreign to the body is a pointless waste of time, energy, intelligence and money.

I don't know what you mean by "so called scientific studies" science is common sense dude you can call it something else if you want.

Common sense. Forget about science.

Take your pet theory, now you'll find a lot of people who say it's worked for them BUT WAIT some people feel better because the body has a way of HEALING ITSELF so we have to make sure that people aren't just reporting when it worked and forgetting when it didn't (human nature. we remember when we 'just knew' who was on the other end of the phone but don't remember the times we didn't. giving some people the belief that we seem to have a sixth sense of knowing who's ringing).

So what would you do, forget science?

Well you'd treat some people with this one technique and others with a different technique in such a way that niether party knows which is which, then after you compare results. If there is a statistical difference you might well have a real pheonomena to report.

If this works then others who are skeptical can repeat the test and see for themselves.

By sharing these findings we can discover REAL NEW REMEDIES WHICH ARE VERY GOOD THINGS BECAUSE EVERYBODY WANTS NEW MEDICINES THAT WORK and we can DISCOVER SHARLITANS who might be MANIPULATING SICK PEOPLE WITH VERY LITTLE HOPE FOR THEIR OWN PROFITS.

If you don't use this process how do your realistically propose how we find out which medicines work and which DO NOT?

People throughout the ages have TRICKED PEOPLE who are vulnerable into spending a lot of time and money on treatments that DO NOT WORK and then the people DIE!!!!!

I am not saying anything against any particular system, medicine treatment etc.

I am simply saying when you say things like "This so called science" you seem to be completely misunderstanding the purpose of science.

Science IS NOT a conspiracy invented by drug companies and atheists.

[SlapItHigh]

Repeated studies have shown that homebirth is safer than hospital birth yet how many here who are so gung ho about science choose homebirth for their past or future children? Just curious if people only lean on science when it suits their social conditionings.

[DJ RP]

Repeated studies have shown that homebirth is safer than hospital birth yet how many here who are so gung ho about science choose homebirth for their past or future children? Just curious if people only lean on science when it suits their social conditionings.

This has nothing to do with science but on how people behave.

Statistics also show that you are more likely to be killed falling down stairs than by a terrorist attack in the united states.

What are people more afraid of, stairs or terrorists?

Did we invade iraq because of stairs?

People are irrational and just because they might prefer the idea of being in a hospital and feel 'safe' really has nothing to do with science.

Just like how people might feel safe with fred thompson as president and troops in iraq "so they don't attack us over here" we all know that they would ACTUALLY be LESS SAFE.

Nothing to do with facts or science. Just humans being humans.

[SlapItHigh]

People are irrational and just because they might prefer the idea of being in a hospital and feel 'safe' really has nothing to do with science.

But if they actually research childbirth they would find that they are actually putting themselves at additional risk by being in the hospital. I'm not seeing the difference. If people feel that they are more like to cure themselves with homeopathy, but scientific studies show otherwise?? eta - so choosing homeopathy has nothing to do with science but rather the way that people behave.

[BlindD]

I mean yes everyone in every situation can and shoudl take theri spiritual temperature.....I suggest to blindd you read the Book of JOB.....and seeif you dont take away that soemtimes calamity in our own lives isnt caused by any sin of ours despiet how many friends may come along to tell us that!

Of course you are correct - it's all a crapshoot. We live, do the best we can, then die. No big deal.
Stuff happens, you do your best.
Most of the time, if one has the desire, understanding can come to you about ways to 'do your best' even better, and so you reap the rewards of living more truthfully, more harmoniously, more intelligently. And, even with that, sometimes it still doesn't work out too well, so you continue to do the best that you can.
The thing is that most folks walk around in a dreamstate. Sleepwalking. They don't wake up easily. Most of their problems are self-imposed. They cry out in pain. Someone makes a buck giving them a temporary fix. Then they hurt again and cry out for more. On it goes. Sad.
And the choice to wake up is always right there in front of us - in the mirror.

[BlindD]

Ok, I'll admit to getting a good chuckle out of this post! I laugh as I sit here and type while my 2 year old is nursing. First of all, you are wrong. Human's aren't made to drink mother's milk for a year or two. They are meant to drink mother's milk for 2.5 to 6.5 years. You might benefit from doing some research on this topic. Check out writings from Dr. Katherine A. Dettwyler, PhD, associate professor of anthropology and nutrition at Texas A&M University.

But, will your ego allow you to admit that you are wrong about that ;) ?

Regardless, some still find advantages of drinking cow's milk later in life. Human's do a lot of things that no other animals do. I'm not a big fan of cow's milk but if I ever use it, I'd want it to be raw for sure. FWIW, raw goat's milk is more suited to the human digestive system.

1, year, 2 years, 6 years. All good by me! Certain tribes advocate breast milk up until puberty.
However, you got my point. And I see yours. Gracias!
But why do you say, "Regardless, some still find cow's milk advantageous..."
Regardless?!? Regardless of what? Regardless of anatomy, physiology, instinct, intuition, intelligence and common sense? This is exactly what I am talking about. Habits, folklore, superstition and ignorance (to ignore) is rampant, and carries on generation to generation. Much suffering thereby.
Why not break the cycle and wake up?

[BlindD]

I don't think you realize just how completely and utterly transparent that statement is.
The reason you don't state your degree and licensure is because you don't have them:

David Kachel
Graduate, Palmer College of Chiropractic
Class of 1975

Instructor / International College of Chiropractic / Melbourne, Australia 1979- 1980

Licenses: Arizona, New Mexico, Australia, Peru (all expired licenses due to my being retired, but still researchable)

Now, if you can't do the same, you are clearly a fraud. So stop wasting everyone's time with what is plainly nonsense.

So, nothing one says is legitimate unless accompanied by degrees acceptable by you? So be it.

Truth stands on its own. Degrees are irrelevant.

Degrees often beget egoic pride, making one blind to truth. Much harder for an educated man to throw off his shackles of ignore-ance.

***

BTW - for you chiropractors: Is a subluxation due to a lack of chiropractic adjustments? Are subluxations caused by an adjustment deficiency? Perhaps you have enough degrees to answer intelligently? What is the real cause of a subluxation? Why not go for the cause, rather than treat symptoms? Chiros are no better than all the rest in this regard.

[ConstitutionGal]

MDs who practive integrative medicine or functional medicine that seekst root causes to ones illness before putting you on the latest drug for say RLS are being run out of business b/c the medical review boards go after them for practicing differntly its often b/c they are so effective and other drs. lose patients and turn them in....Dr. are supposed to be able to recommend what they feel is best for you.....and you pay them for that...they are losing their licenses for doing things like NOT prescribing phramceuticals but maybe solving problems in gentler ways with herbs or supplemenst or diet......We are also getting ready to lose supllements and herbs in this country!!! We wont have choices ....we will have only pills that Pharma promotes!!!! great reason to elect the good dr.....

The FDA just banned raw almost b/c tehy say they are dangerous yet thousands died on Celebrex......teh almonds are banned b/c they are so healthy for you........get it...they wnt to control our food and medicine which will control our life and death.....

..and you shall be awarded the cake!!!

I see an MD here in Tennessee who is also a board certified holistic physician. The only way he can practice here is under his MD license!! He has helped me over SEVERAL issues WITHOUT THE USE OF ANY SYNTHETIC DRUGS - some issues that other doctors immediatly broke out the old prescrition pads for. I feel better than I've felt in several years am an not having to take drugs for anything. Of course, thanks to big pharma and government regulation, my doctor can't take insurance payments because to do so would severely limit the time he could spend with each individual patient!! He files my private insurance for me and I do get back a percentage of his bill (out of network, of course) but it costs me quite a bit more to see him but, that is my choice. What scare me is that with the direction those in DC are going, it won't be very much longer before I won't even have the choice to see my doc nor will I be able to buy the supplements and vitamins that have helped me so much. This is just ONE of the reasons that I'll be supporting Dr. Paul in any and every way that I can.

[ConstitutionGal]

Ok, I'll admit to getting a good chuckle out of this post! I laugh as I sit here and type while my 2 year old is nursing. First of all, you are wrong. Human's aren't made to drink mother's milk for a year or two. They are meant to drink mother's milk for 2.5 to 6.5 years. You might benefit from doing some research on this topic. Check out writings from Dr. Katherine A. Dettwyler, PhD, associate professor of anthropology and nutrition at Texas A&M University.

But, will your ego allow you to admit that you are wrong about that ;) ?

Regardless, some still find advantages of drinking cow's milk later in life. Human's do a lot of things that no other animals do. I'm not a big fan of cow's milk but if I ever use it, I'd want it to be raw for sure. FWIW, raw goat's milk is more suited to the human digestive system.
It did my heart good to see your post!!! I was raised on raw cow's milk and would give quite a lot to be able to purchase it or raw goat's milk here in Tennessee. Sadly, most of our legislators are IDIOTS and have decided to basically outlaw both here!

I keep hoping that with a Ron Paul presidency will come some real freedom loving folks to more local governments also.

[Ninja Homer]

Hey everybody, I just wanted to point out how great this thread is as an example of how Ron Paul's message brings people together. There are a lot of different views here; allopathic, chiropractic, alternative medicine, and probably others. And yet, we can all agree on Ron Paul's position that people should have the freedom to choose to implement whatever health practices they want, and whatever that decision may be, one person shouldn't have to pay for another's health care. It's truly awesome!

[BlindD]

Where is all of this coming from? I thought you were a science man!
Science is fine - rational thinking and investigation goes as far as it goes, and does so very well.
My point is that if foreign chemicals and compounds are alien and damaging to the body, inherently, then why waste scientific effort in studying how to keep damaging the body with foreign substances?



I don't know what you mean by "so called scientific studies" science is common sense dude you can call it something else if you want.

Common sense. Forget about science.

Take your pet theory, now you'll find a lot of people who say it's worked for them BUT WAIT some people feel better because the body has a way of HEALING ITSELF so we have to make sure that people aren't just reporting when it worked and forgetting when it didn't (human nature. we remember when we 'just knew' who was on the other end of the phone but don't remember the times we didn't. giving some people the belief that we seem to have a sixth sense of knowing who's ringing).

So what would you do, forget science?

Well you'd treat some people with this one technique and others with a different technique in such a way that niether party knows which is which, then after you compare results. If there is a statistical difference you might well have a real pheonomena to report.

If this works then others who are skeptical can repeat the test and see for themselves.

By sharing these findings we can discover REAL NEW REMEDIES WHICH ARE VERY GOOD THINGS BECAUSE EVERYBODY WANTS NEW MEDICINES THAT WORK and we can DISCOVER SHARLITANS who might be MANIPULATING SICK PEOPLE WITH VERY LITTLE HOPE FOR THEIR OWN PROFITS.

If you don't use this process how do your realistically propose how we find out which medicines work and which DO NOT?

People throughout the ages have TRICKED PEOPLE who are vulnerable into spending a lot of time and money on treatments that DO NOT WORK and then the people DIE!!!!!

I am not saying anything against any particular system, medicine treatment etc.

I am simply saying when you say things like "This so called science" you seem to be completely misunderstanding the purpose of science.

Science IS NOT a conspiracy invented by drug companies and atheists.

[SlapItHigh]

But why do you say, "Regardless, some still find cow's milk advantageous..."
Regardless?!? Regardless of what? Regardless of anatomy, physiology, instinct, intuition, intelligence and common sense? This is exactly what I am talking about. Habits, folklore, superstition and ignorance (to ignore) is rampant, and carries on generation to generation. Much suffering thereby.
Why not break the cycle and wake up?

Regardless of the natural age of weaning. Knowing the age that humans were meant to wean from human milk does not give us the answer to whether or not cow's milk can be of any benefit to humans. It is debatable but you certainly haven't proven that it is not useful. Not only have you failed to prove your opinion or provide any evidence at all to back up your view, you've moved to actively insulting those who do not agree with your opinions.



BTW - for you chiropractors: Is a subluxation due to a lack of chiropractic adjustments? Are subluxations caused by an adjustment deficiency? Perhaps you have enough degrees to answer intelligently? What is the real cause of a subluxation? Why not go for the cause, rather than treat symptoms? Chiros are no better than all the rest in this regard.


I'm not a chiropractor but I know that there are many causes for subluxation. Many people develop their first subluxation in childbirth as our birth culture is completely screwed up. Birthing on your back, sitting, laying down, semi-reclined, etc are horrible positions for your baby to be born in yet the vast majority of people birth this way due to provider direction. There are chiropractors who are speaking out against this to prevent subluxation. Of course there are some who are have no desire to prevent this and would rather have the business but no profession is full of 100% ethical people.

[BlindD]

Amen to that!


Hey everybody, I just wanted to point out how great this thread is as an example of how Ron Paul's message brings people together. There are a lot of different views here; allopathic, chiropractic, alternative medicine, and probably others. And yet, we can all agree on Ron Paul's position that people should have the freedom to choose to implement whatever health practices they want, and whatever that decision may be, one person shouldn't have to pay for another's health care. It's truly awesome!

[BlindD]

Regardless of the natural age of weaning. Knowing the age that humans were meant to wean from human milk does not give us the answer to whether or not cow's milk can be of any benefit to humans. It is debatable but you certainly haven't proven that it is not useful. Not only have you failed to prove your opinion or provide any evidence at all to back up your view, you've moved to actively insulting those who do not agree with your opinions.

Failed to prove? What do you need, placebo-controlled, randomized, double-blind studies? Science to the rescue! Study paid for by the National Dairy Research Council. I bet they find that cows milk is good for you! They'd find that rats milk was good for you if the National Rat Coalition funded the study.

Does ANY animal in nature suckle on animals of another species? Does ANY animal in nature continue drinking milk after weaning?
Cow milk? Why not drink dog milk? Cat milk? Elephant milk? Rat milk? Pig milk? Lion milk? Horse milk?
Doesn't all of that sound rather unnatural to you? Even disgusting? Climb under a mare next time you see her lactating, or maybe cuddle up to a lactating sow.

What more proof do you need?
You see how this works... a false belief is established, i.e. "cows milk is good for you."
Then people defend it, usually because they have emotional charge about the issue. Milk = childhood, ice cream, fun times, mother's love, whatever. The stated defenses for cow milk have absolutely nothing to do with natural reality, but people go on doing it anyway, because it makes them feel good - temporarily.
After a while the ill effects arise from partaking of milk, cheese, ice cream, yogurt and so on - cows milk, a substance unnatural to humans - and we get colds, flu's, sinusitis, tonsilitis, upper respiratory tract infections, on and on.
The body is trying to eliminate the toxic garbage from the unnatural cows milk proteins. People wonder why they get these illnesses. They erroneously think they 'caught' a cold or the flu. But no one dares say "It's the milk!" You can't say that, because "Milk is good for you! My mother told me to drink my milk and grow up to be strong and healthy! And besides, I love ice cream!"
False beliefs are very difficult to unearth and destroy.

Clearly what you are perturbed about is that you think I 'insult' people. I simply speak obvious truth. But if that truth conflicts with someone's emotionally-driven false belief system, they will get offended and scream "Insult! Arrogance! Holier-than-thou! No compassion! No empathy! No kindness!"
Oh well.

[davidkachel]

So, nothing one says is legitimate unless accompanied by degrees acceptable by you? So be it.

Truth stands on its own. Degrees are irrelevant.

I rest my case. This man admits to having no degree and no license. He is a fraud.
I won't waste any more time with him.

[jmdrake]

For those wanting scientific studies showing the benefits chiropractic medicine:

http://www.biomedcentral.com/content/pdf/1471-2474-7-16.pdf
http://www.thespinejournalonline.com/article/PIIS1529943003001773/abstract
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=ShowDetailView&TermToSearch=17870419&ordinalpos=12&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

There are a lot more. If you got to PubMed.com and do a search you can find them. You can also find peer reviewed articles on this and other subjects at BioMedCentral.com. This second site is good because all of the articles there are available free of charge. Also chiropractors in general do not try to hide the risks of what they do. But ALL medical procedures have risks and to only look at the risks related to chiropractors is VERY unscientific.

Regards,

John M. Drake

[davidkachel]

For those wanting scientific studies showing the benefits chiropractic medicine:

Just a technicality; "Chiropractic Medicine" is a non-existent and somewhat misleading term. There is Chiropractic and there is Medicine. They are separate disciplines. (There is a more generic use of the term "medicine" that includes chiropractic under its "umbrella" but as it is too easily misconstrued, it should be avoided. It also tends to bristle some Chiropractors and some Medics.)

This is just a misconception that goes hand-in-hand with things like "Chiropractors are not allowed to prescribe". That's kind of like saying "Dentists are not allowed to perform hip surgery". "Chiropractors are not allowed to prescribe" originated as a back-door attempt to belittle Chiropractors. Kind of a "well, you're not a real doctor because...." sort of nonsense. Try telling your dentist he's not a real doctor because he can't perform hip surgery!

It's not that Chiropractors are "not allowed" to prescribe. It's that Chiropractors simply do not prescribe. It's not part of what they do and therefore has never been sought. (If a Chiropractor wants to prescribe, he will go to medical school; as some have.) If he feels a patient needs medication, which happens fairly often, he sends them to an MD he trusts and knows will work together with him. Chiropractors acknowledge the need for traditional medicine, but prefer not to get involved in its practice themselves. The practice of Chiropractic and traditional allopathic medicine require two very different (and both valid) mindsets. It is best to remain focused on one and leave the other to someone else.

[Brennon]

My point is that if foreign chemicals and compounds are alien and damaging to the body, inherently, then why waste scientific effort in studying how to keep damaging the body with foreign substances?


Do you honestly think your body knows the difference between 'natural' and 'synthetic'? Food is a foreign substance, for example, and is treated as such.

Why would you assume a synthetic substance is somehow 'worse' for you than some herbal treatment? The herbs are just as foreign as the synthetic substance. Some of the most damaging, toxic substances are naturally occuring. It's an absolutely bogus argument.

[Brennon]

For those wanting scientific studies showing the benefits chiropractic medicine:

http://www.biomedcentral.com/content/pdf/1471-2474-7-16.pdf
http://www.thespinejournalonline.com/article/PIIS1529943003001773/abstract
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=ShowDetailView&TermToSearch=17870419&ordinalpos=12&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

http://www.biomedcentral.com/content/pdf/1471-2474-7-16.pdf

Pain relief was 'statisitically significant' in some areas but hardly enough to be considered effective or cost effective. Also a poor study as there was no control group and the pain relief was completely subjective.

http://www.thespinejournalonline.com/article/PIIS1529943003001773/abstract

This one appears to be down right now.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=ShowDetailView&TermToSearch=17870419&ordinalpos=12&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

I might as well quote the actual study on this one...


The group that received both manual therapy and exercise showed increases in FVC and FEV1 immediately after manual therapy followed by an additional increase after exercise. The overall increase in this group was not statistically significant.

[LibertyEagle]

So, nothing one says is legitimate unless accompanied by degrees acceptable by you? So be it.

Truth stands on its own. Degrees are irrelevant.

Degrees often beget egoic pride, making one blind to truth. Much harder for an educated man to throw off his shackles of ignore-ance.



YOU are the one who claimed you were a licensed doctor. So, either put up or shut up. What degrees do you hold and what licenses did/do you hold?

[jmdrake]

http://www.biomedcentral.com/content/pdf/1471-2474-7-16.pdf

Pain relief was 'statisitically significant' in some areas but hardly enough to be considered effective or cost effective. Also a poor study as there was no control group and the pain relief was completely subjective.

http://www.thespinejournalonline.com/article/PIIS1529943003001773/abstract

This one appears to be down right now.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=ShowDetailView&TermToSearch=17870419&ordinalpos=12&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

I might as well quote the actual study on this one...


The group that received both manual therapy and exercise showed increases in FVC and FEV1 immediately after manual therapy followed by an additional increase after exercise. The overall increase in this group was not statistically significant.

You left this part out of your quote.

The manual therapy only group showed a significant increase in FVC (P = .000, GLM) and FEV1 (P = .001, GLM).

Gee...I wonder why?

Regards,

John M. Drake

[DJ RP]

Where is all of this coming from? I thought you were a science man!
Science is fine - rational thinking and investigation goes as far as it goes, and does so very well.
My point is that if foreign chemicals and compounds are alien and damaging to the body, inherently, then why waste scientific effort in studying how to keep damaging the body with foreign substances?

You didn't understand what I wrote.

[davidkachel]

YOU are the one who claimed you were a licensed doctor. So, either put up or shut up. What degrees do you hold and what licenses did/do you hold?

LibertyEagle,

It's pointless. The guy has been found out and either will not answer at all or will keep going in circles. His ridiculous statements alone prove he is a fraud, regardless of the healthcare discipline from which one approaches his comments. According to him, no branch of healing knows what it is talking about except him (apparently a branch unto himself).

You can't deal with the "Oh yeah!" discipline of logic.

[davidkachel]

I wish this thread would simply disappear, but as it likely will not and in the interest of not having innocent bystanders misled...

The healing arts are also a business and like any other business there is competition. Over the years one group or another of healers held the lead so to speak and tended to speak poorly of the others. Until the end of the 19th Century the Homeopaths were in the lead, for those of you who like to bash Homeopaths.

The first sign of a physician you should avoid at all costs is that he/she trashes the other disciplines. Wise, experienced physicians of all disciplines have learned that there is something of value in all the other disciplines and though they may not always understand it, they do respect it and make use of it.

So for the record, Medical Doctors, Osteopaths, Chiropractors, Homeopaths, Naturopaths, Acupuncturists and most other disciplines with formal training all have something to offer and all work from a philosophical basis that has at least some validity. The skill, wisdom, experience, training and intuition of the physician counts for at least as much if not more than the discipline practiced.

To quote a very wise physician I had the privilege of knowing; "A disease is a constellation of contributing factors the removal of any one of which can lead to recovery." (This is how I think I remember it, and probably not verbatim.)

So if you think you want to consult a Discombobulist, check his credentials first, then go ahead. If he gives you some nonsense about credentials being meaningless, give him a pass. After all, even Discombobulists have to train somewhere!

[BlindD]

Do you honestly think your body knows the difference between 'natural' and 'synthetic'? Food is a foreign substance, for example, and is treated as such.

Why would you assume a synthetic substance is somehow 'worse' for you than some herbal treatment? The herbs are just as foreign as the synthetic substance. Some of the most damaging, toxic substances are naturally occuring. It's an absolutely bogus argument.

If a substance found in nature is to be considered a natural food for humans, then we should easily and pleasurably be able to make a wholesome, satisifying meal of it. Raw, natural, just as nature provides it to us. After all, every single animal that has ever lived on earth, since the beginning of life on earth, has eaten every single meal it has ever eaten - raw. Clearly raw food is the ideal way to obtain nourishment. Humans are no exception.
So, herbs belong in the body? Then make a meal of them. Garlic is 'curative'? Then eat a whole meal of garlic. Watch how sick you get.
Echinacea is a healing herb? It naturally belings in the body? Then eat a meal's worth of it. Watch how sick you get.
Slippery Elm bark is 'curative' for gastric ulcers? What? Eat enough slippery elm bark for a meal and it'll tear up your stomach lining pretty darn well.
Real food that belongs in the body does not make you sick. Eat a meal's worth of oranges and you are feeling excellent. Eat a meal's worth of willow bark and you are sick as a dog.
If a healthy person takes drugs/herbs/garbage it makes them sick. So how is a sick person supposed to get well by taking the same substance?
Logical? Rational? Scientific? Come on.....
Of course, the next specious argument is that one is only supposed to take a small amount of the 'curative' herb. This is pathetic thinking. As unscientific as it gets.
If something is toxic, then it is toxic in small amounts or large amounts. Of course, the more toxic junk that is ingested the worse it's effects will be because you have overwhelmed the body's ability to neutralize it quickly enough. But even in small doses it is toxic, injurious and damaging to the body... it's just that the body has enough wherewithal to neutralize, eliminate and recover from the relatively small dose of poison.
How is this so hard to understand?
Yet nobody understands it. Irrational emotional beliefs run the show.
Take garlic for example. Severely irritating, noxious plant root bulb, filled with nasty toxins called allicin, various mustard oils, and substances which metabolize into thiocyanate - nasty stuff. Yet people believe it to be 'curative'.
OK - obvious facts: You can't eat this crap straight - your body will reject it immediately. Chew a few raw garlic bulbs for lunch. Ridiculous idea. Your taste buds will scream at you - Idiot! Spit this out now! If you do manage to swallow it, you'll be puking in a few minutes as the body vehemently rejects it. Doesn't that tell you something? Or, rejecting your own bodily wisdom, do you need to rely on 'scientific studies' that tell you that garlic is good for you? Such bogus scientific studies tell you it is good, so you eat it - pill form, capsules, whatever tricky way people have devised to hide the nasty crap so that you can manage to swallow it without vomiting. Wonderful. Intelligent.

But you do seem to understand some of it - as you said, "The herbs are just as foreign as the synthetic substance. Some of the most damaging, toxic substances are naturally occuring."
Bravo! Hit the nail on the head. So, the wise man and woman will understand that all toxic substances should never gain entrance into the body proper. That includes most things on this planet, with the exception of certain, specific foods that are the proper, ideal foods for humans. The rest stays outside the body, including any herbs that our body rejects (by smell & taste), all synthesized drugs (whether synthesized from natural or artificial sources), vaccinations, treatments, remedies, etc., etc. Keep the good stuff going in, the bad stuff out, and you are most of the way to excellent health.

You say, "Do you honestly think your body knows the difference between 'natural' and 'synthetic'? Food is a foreign substance, for example, and is treated as such."

Yes, your body does indeed know the difference between natural and artificial. This can be measured any number of ways in the body's responses to the substances - pulse, BP, various secretions, EEG, EKG, GSR, leukocyte counts, many more. With natural food substances, bodily reactions fall easily within normal parameters. Artificial substances evoke exaggerated, usually defensive responses.

For you to say that natural foods are foreign substances, tells me that you are operating somewhere outside the realm of logic or common sense. How does one respond to a statement like that?

[BlindD]

I rest my case. This man admits to having no degree and no license. He is a fraud.
I won't waste any more time with him.

David, you won't 'waste time' with me because you simply cannot answer rationally or scientifically. You cannot answer simple, straightforward questions, whether they come from me or they were to come from a dispassionate observer. Instead, you bloviate about irrelevant subjects and run around on tangents.

So I ask again... simple questions that any chiropractic health care practitioner most certainly should be able to directly and confidently answer, right at the beginning:

For you chiropractors out there:
Is a subluxation due to a lack of chiropractic adjustments?
Are subluxations caused by an adjustment deficiency?
If I've got a bad headache, is it due to a lack of enough chiropractic adjustments?
What is the real cause of a subluxation?
What is the real cause of my headache?
Why not go for the cause, rather than treat symptoms?
Chiros are no better than all the rest in this regard. They chase symptoms without acting responsibly and ferreting out the cause. By chasing symptoms, and never touching causes, they can keep their poor patients coming back for symptom treatments again and again and again. 'Tis good for the bank account, yes?

For you herbalists out there:
Is a disease due to a lack of herbal remedies?
Are diseases caused by an herbal remedy deficiency in the bloodstream?
If I've got a bad headache, is it due to a lack of enough herbal remedies? Should I take herbal remedies every day in order to 'prevent' headaches? What is normal or natural about taking herbal remedies every day to cure or prevent anything... when the herb doesn't belong in my body in the first place?
What is the real cause of my headache?
What is the real cause of a disease?
Why not go for the cause, rather than treat symptoms?

For you homeopaths out there:
Is a disease due to a lack of homeopathic remedies?
Are diseases like my headache caused by a homeopathic remedy deficiency in the bloodstream?
What is the real cause of a disease?
Why not go for the cause, rather than treat symptoms?

For you medical doctors out there:
Is a disease due to a lack of prescription drugs?
Are diseases caused by an prescription drug deficiencies in the bloodstream?
Is my headache due to an aspirin or tylenol deficiency in my bloodstream?
What is the real cause of my headache?
What is the real cause of a disease?
Why not go for the cause, rather than treat symptoms?

99.9% of so-called health care practitioners cannot even begin to answer these simple, basic, necessary questions... mostly because they are never asked. If they are never asked, then they are never forced to think about it deeply for themselves. Mostly they just passively buy into the theories they are told in medical school. If you don't ask the right question you'll never get a decent answer.
Why are they never asked? Because the brainwashing is damn-well perfect and no patients ever question the fundamental premises that the 'curing' professions operate from. Instead, pathetically enough, the brainwashed demand total socialized health insurance for everyone from the government to keep paying for treatments! Ignorance abounds on all sides.

For all you Patients out there:
Ask your health care provider these basic, fundamental questions, and demand straightforward answers. Write down what they do tell you and then do some more research for yourself. Make sure you understand and sincerely agree with the answers given to you. After all, this is your health - the most precious gift you have been given. Question authority!!!!

If asked, most people would say, "Yes, I would prefer real, personal freedom from dependence on medical doctors, chiropractors, herbalists and all the rest. It's expensive, inconvenient, often painful, and a real drag to have to go to them and go through all the procedures, but I believe I have to go to my doctor to get treatment and relief from my aches, pains and diseases. I have to get my drugs, adjustments, remedies, treatments, etc. Otherwise what will happen to me???"
All fear and false beliefs.

What people really need is honest education about how health and disease really works, and how to personally take command of their health and well-being. Knowledge and understanding banish fear and beget wisdom and peace of mind. Cut the cord of dependence from any other person who would encourage your dependence on them for basic health and well-being. Freedom is what people are after (we would hope), but in the realms of health care, most everyone is hugely indoctrinated to believe, from birth onwards, that their health depends on someone else.

It does not. People can wake up to this fact at any time they are ready and willing.

[steph3n]

everyone, just drop it.

medical treatments should be UP TO US. stop arguing about the best ways, because it will soon be UP TO US.

All that is being done here is making diversity, when we are unified in freedom!

[BlindD]

The practice of Chiropractic and traditional allopathic medicine (M.D.) require two very different (and both valid) mindsets. It is best to remain focused on one and leave the other to someone else.

David, come on now.... you can do better than this.

Two very different and yet both valid mindsets (belief systems)?????

How about this: Gravity exists and gravity doesn't exist. Two very different and yet both valid mindsets.
Allrighty then!

Or how about this: Habeus corpus is necessary for freedom. Habeus corpus has nothing to do with freedom. Just two very different and yet both valid mindsets.
Ditto!

If "chiro and allopathic are both valid... and one does best to focus on one and not the other"...
How can any potential patient know how to choose if they are "both valid"?
It's insane.

Imagine you have a terrible case of migraine headache.
I line up in front of you ALL the different health care practitioners available to you:
MD,
DC,
DO,
ND,
acupuncturist,
herbalist,
homeopath,
massage therapist,
psychologist,
psychiatrist,
reiki master,
crystal healer,
hypnotist,
addiction counselor,
marriage counselor,
energy healer,
environmental medical expert,
ayurvedic specialist,
meditation guru,
nutritionist,
chinese medicine practitioner,
vascular surgeon,
brain surgeon,
biofeedback practitioner,
religious counselor,
motivational guru,
spiritual mentor and
used car salesman.

OK. How in God's Name is anyone supposed to know how to choose the right treatment peddler... especially since they are all valid mindsets/belief systems/treatment options??????? (according to you, anyhow)

Kinda muddles things up a bit, eh?

So, here you are with your terrible migraine headache, and now you've got 20 different practitioners standing in front of you, every single one of them telling you, "I have the answer for you! I have the cure for you! I have the correct treatment for you! Just follow me to my office... by the way, do you have good insurance?"

Does it ever occur to you to ask yourself, "Something seems fishy and terribly wrong about this whole situation here... How can all of these radically different practitioners "have the answer" for me? All I hear are 20 different answers!

Hmmm... if my problem was severe high blood pressure, still I would continue to get 20 different answers... or if it was arthritis.. or influenza... or cancer... or diabetes... WTF?

How can there be 20 different ways to cure my migraine? And why does this damn headache keep coming back, anyway? Maybe all of these so-called 'cures' are bogus! A big waste of time, money and effort. These people are all missing the point! Maybe there is a fundamental cause for my headache, and all of these people are just beating around the bush... If these people don't really have a permanent answer, perhaps I'll have to find out the answer for myself..."

Ah yes, the search for truth and freedom begins.....

[steph3n]

GIVE it up already!
Stop making chasms between and build a bridge!


David, come on now.... you can do better than this.

Two very different and yet both valid mindsets (belief systems)?????

How about this: Gravity exists and gravity doesn't exist. Two very different and yet both valid mindsets.
Allrighty then!

Or how about this: Habeus corpus is necessary for freedom. Habeus corpus has nothing to do with freedom. Just two very different and yet both valid mindsets.
Ditto!

If "chiro and allopathic are both valid... and one does best to focus on one and not the other"...
How can any potential patient know how to choose if they are "both valid"?
It's insane.

Imagine you have a terrible case of migraine headache.
I line up in front of you ALL the different health care practitioners available to you:
MD,
DC,
DO,
ND,
acupuncturist,
herbalist,
homeopath,
massage therapist,
psychologist,
psychiatrist,
reiki master,
crystal healer,
hypnotist,
addiction counselor,
marriage counselor,
energy healer,
environmental medical expert,
ayurvedic specialist,
meditation guru,
nutritionist,
chinese medicine practitioner,
vascular surgeon,
brain surgeon,
biofeedback practitioner,
religious counselor,
motivational guru,
spiritual mentor and
used car salesman.

OK. How in God's Name is anyone supposed to know how to choose the right treatment peddler... especially since they are all valid mindsets/belief systems/treatment options??????? (according to you, anyhow)

Kinda muddles things up a bit, eh?

So, here you are with your terrible migraine headache, and now you've got 20 different practitioners standing in front of you, every single one of them telling you, "I have the answer for you! I have the cure for you! I have the correct treatment for you! Just follow me to my office... by the way, do you have good insurance?"

Does it ever occur to you to ask yourself, "Something seems fishy and terribly wrong about this whole situation here... How can all of these radically different practitioners "have the answer" for me? All I hear are 20 different answers!

Hmmm... if my problem was severe high blood pressure, still I would continue to get 20 different answers... or if it was arthritis.. or influenza... or cancer... or diabetes... WTF?

How can there be 20 different ways to cure my migraine? And why does this damn headache keep coming back, anyway? Maybe all of these so-called 'cures' are bogus! A big waste of time, money and effort. These people are all missing the point! Maybe there is a fundamental cause for my headache, and all of these people are just beating around the bush... If these people don't really have a permanent answer, perhaps I'll have to find out the answer for myself..."

Ah yes, the search for truth and freedom begins.....

[BlindD]

everyone, just drop it.

medical treatments should be UP TO US. stop arguing about the best ways, because it will soon be UP TO US.

All that is being done here is making diversity, when we are unified in freedom!

Steph3n,
Most certainly you are right - unified in seeking freedom.
I try to encourage, in as many ways as I can think of, for people to recognize the health-care shackles they walk in, and that they can break free of the shackles into far greater freedom anytime they want. Health freedom is available to anyone, right now. But first one has to realize they are caught in the web of 'curing' deception, enslaved, indoctrinated, their perceptions 'managed', their beliefs false and detrimental.

Why is anyone on this forum?
Because you desire more freedom in your life; you are sick and tired of the BS going on with gov't and police and wars and all the rest. Petty, insecure control freaks dominate all positions of 'authority' in this country (this is always the case). We wish to be rid of their influence, personally and collectively.
So, you want more freedom. The trouble is, you are looking outside of yourself to find your freedom.
I add to the mix the fact that personal health care is ripe for far more freedom than most people realize or will admit. Personal health care is an area where you can realize tremendously more freedom - right now - without having to go through elections, repeal of laws, changes of regulations or any of that garbage.
The bare bones simple truth is that far more freedom is available to everyone, right now, and the only thing you have to do is ruthlessly and honestly examine your own belief that you are not free. Slavery to anything is a state of mind that can be changed - right now.

Who is up to it?

[LibertyEagle]

Blind, give it a rest. This is a board about Ron Paul. It is not for the purpose of selling your personal snake oil.

In Liberty...

[BlindD]

Blind, give it a rest. This is a board about Ron Paul. It is not for the purpose of selling your personal snake oil.

In Liberty...

Now freedom is snake oil?!

Far out....

[LibertyOfOne]

Now freedom is snake oil?!

Far out....

I didn't know you can sell freedom in a bottle.

[LibertyEagle]

Blind,

You are not espousing freedom. You are insulting and condescending to people who do not buy your version of snake oil.

You have put forth your version of reality.

Give it a rest now.