The myth of passive resistance

[Anti Federalist]

That is what is demonstrated by this story:


re: Felony Charge for Writing to a Senator
Posted by Lew Rockwell on July 5, 2010 03:10 PM

http://www.lewrockwell.com/blog/lewrw/archives/60897.html

Writes Mark Janness:

Gerald Celente in many of his interviews has been forecasting riots when the government can no longer deliver on its promises, Says Celente: “When people no longer have anything to lose, they lose it.”

This law suit against Bruce Shore is just the beginning of the state’s response to those demanding what the state has promised but is failing to deliver (because the state cannot deliver the goods as promised).

We should all think twice before writing our “elected” representatives, as if it is going to do any good in the first place. Your letter only goes into your FBI file.

To paraphase Emma Goldman on voting, if writing to your senator could change anything, it would be illegal.

That is the system, question it's rulers and you will go to jail.

Disobey and you will go to jail.

Disobey in an orchestrated and organized fashion you will be infiltrated, set up and jailed before you even start.

Disobey en masse in an organized fashion and you will be gunned down.

Make it clear you will actively resist and that you will fight, and you just might back the system off.

[heavenlyboy34]

Excellent post! You deserve a bump.

[dr. hfn]

bump!

[phill4paul]

Huzzah!

[Kludge]

Jail us all.

They hurt themselves the most.

I will continue living my life oblivious to Gov't regulations. Resistance is a waste of effort -- make them do the work.

[Vessol]

I disagree. Violent resistance is always crushed more violently or succeeds and just creates an equally tyrannical system.

[heavenlyboy34]

Jail us all.

They hurt themselves the most.

I will continue living my life oblivious to Gov't regulations. Resistance is a waste of effort -- make them do the work.

sounds like an excellent stimulus plan. We can all be "employed" in Gulags!

[Anti Federalist]

Jail us all.

They hurt themselves the most.

I will continue living my life oblivious to Gov't regulations. Resistance is a waste of effort -- make them do the work.

They won't jail you, if push comes to shove.

They will kill you.

[heavenlyboy34]

They won't jail you, if push comes to shove.

They will kill you.

:eek:

[Kludge]

sounds like an excellent stimulus plan. We can all be "employed" in Gulags!

They don't make prisoners work in Jail. Free shelter, free food, free security.

If jails turn into labor camps, this can be re-evaluated - but as-is, the government's shitting the bed each time it jails citizens (even moreso with watch-wearing "enemy combatants").

[Kludge]

They won't jail you, if push comes to shove.

They will kill you.

There is no evidence implying the US government will exterminate millions of its citizens for failing to bow to its regulations while still maintaining the NAP. The death penalty is nearing death.

[phill4paul]

I disagree. Violent resistance is always crushed more violently or succeeds and just creates an equally tyrannical system.

I disagree. I could easily take part in an armed insurrection of an tyrannical government and return to my homestead. Requiring, nor demanding nothing, save an example to those that would choose to fill the vacuum.

[Anti Federalist]

There is no evidence implying the US government will exterminate millions of its citizens for failing to bow to its regulations while still maintaining the NAP. The death penalty is nearing death.

Willing to bet your life on that?

The laws, the "grid", the tools are already in place.

All it will take is one event, one spark, one Reichstag Fire, to get the killing machine started.

[awake]

If passive resistance doesn't work than who is Ron Paul? Who was Mises, who was Christ himself? Did they not resist and fight? How could one man shake the foundation of an establishment with mere words?

How could one man, never issuing any threat, but instead presenting an idea, an idea more powerful than any past or future army, have such a profound effect?

[Vessol]

The globalists want you to violently rebel so that they have the excuse to crush you.

[ClayTrainor]

I disagree. I could easily take part in an armed insurrection of an tyrannical government and return to my homestead.

There is no chance you'd be returning to your homestead, it would be suicide. Good luck tho!

http://www.usmilitary.tv/images/us_military_collage_zus6.jpg

[Anti Federalist]

If passive resistance doesn't work than who is Ron Paul? Who was Mises, who was Christ himself? Did they not resist and fight? How could one man shake the foundation of an establishment with mere words?

How could one man, never issuing any threat, but instead presenting an idea, an idea more powerful than any past or future army, have such a profound effect?

Christ did passively resist, except in the case of beating and whipping the banksters of his day and time.

And was crucified for it.

[ClayTrainor]

The globalists want you to violently rebel so that they have the excuse to crush you.

ding ding ding...

[Anti Federalist]

The globalists want you to violently rebel so that they have the excuse to crush you.

So the answer is to continue to let them crush us slowly?

That's what I'm coming to realize...we're all dead men walking if the globalists get their way, which seems pretty on track.

I'll die on my feet, not on my knees.

[Vessol]

So the answer is to continue to let them crush us slowly?

Fight back through non-violent means.

Education being primarily amongst them.

The tool of the globalists is violence and coercion.

The tool of the free man is education and logic.

[catdd]

bump

[phill4paul]

The globalists want you to violently rebel so that they have the excuse to crush you.

When you passively resist, you are winning in a way they cannot. Even if they take your liberty, your property, or your life. You are still free from what they desire.

That is one way to think about it. Even in violence if they TRY to take my liberty, property or life I am still free from what they desire. Which is passivity. Resistant or not.

[ClayTrainor]

So the answer is to continue to let them crush us slowly?

Definitely not, but do us a favor and don't end up like these guys...

www.youtube.com/watch?v=DLSNLeoab8c

We need you around a while longer, AF. You're more useful to liberty alive than dead. :)

[Anti Federalist]

Fight back through non-violent means.

Education being primarily amongst them.

The tool of the globalists is violence and coercion.

The tool of the free man is education and logic.

Right, which they will corrupt, infiltrate and destroy.

HR1207 as an example.

[Anti Federalist]

LoL, thanks Clay, it's appreciated, really, I'm feeling kind of "dark" today.

But I have no plans on doing anything like that.

Something in the larger scheme of things is triggering my "fight or flight" response, can't quite put my finger on what exactly, though.

Flight may, sadly, be the only response here.

But that leaves behind a legacy I can't easily walk away from.

I guess it boils down to this: did the founders and our revolution accomplish anything at all, even for a short period of time in the dark annals of human history, or was it all for shit and worthless?

I still hold to the quaint and nationalist notion that, in spite of all the warts, yes it did, that in fact, it was a explosion of light and freedom never before seen.

That means I can't easily walk away.


Definitely not, but do us a favor and don't end up like these guys...

www.youtube.com/watch?v=DLSNLeoab8c

We need you around a while longer, AF. You're more useful to liberty alive than dead. :)

[Vessol]

Right, which they will corrupt, infiltrate and destroy.

HR1207 as an example.

And this just shows the entire illegitimacy of the idea of the State.

Tell me. What do you plan to do after we violently rebel and somehow actually win?

Set up a new government as the Founders intended?

Too bad that as soon as the new government was created after the War of Independence, the idea of limited government was already subverted.
http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig6/davies2.1.1.html

How will you keep this new government limited?

[Kludge]

Willing to bet your life on that?

I have been - I am - and I will continue to.

Soon enough, I will stop resisting altogether and retreat, not out of fear for my life, but knowing how disappointing any future government will be (and how disappointing this government has become) with the American people at the helm.

[Anti Federalist]

How will you keep this new government limited?

I don't know.

That goes beyond my level of wisdom and intelligence.

If you had to press me for an answer, I'd say, yes, revanchist as it may be, let's try to establish a limited government constitutional order.

It's not perfect, but it's better than the alternatives I'm looking at right now.

All I know is the globalists are poised to pulverize us one way or the other, "peacefully" or with active resistance.

[heavenlyboy34]

And this just shows the entire illegitimacy of the idea of the State.

Tell me. What do you plan to do after we violently rebel and somehow actually win?

Set up a new government as the Founders intended?

Too bad that as soon as the new government was created after the War of Independence, the idea of limited government was already subverted.
http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig6/davies2.1.1.html

How will you keep this new government limited?

qft:cool:

[Anti Federalist]

I have been - I am - and I will continue to.

Soon enough, I will stop resisting altogether and retreat, not out of fear for my life, but knowing how disappointing any future government will be (and how disappointing this government has become) with the American people at the helm.

So give up?

Run away?

Fuck it all, it all means shit?

That's the answer?

[awake]

"did the founders and our revolution accomplish anything at all"

They proved that freedom is not a mere happenstance of an advancing humanity, it is an essential driving force of life itself. The American experiment let the cat out of the bag so to speak; those who choose freedom and liberty as its foundation will unlock an immeasurable peace , prosperity and happiness beyond even the imaginations of those who came before it.

History is the story of liberty vs tyranny - the trend towards greater freedom is clear once you see it. The idea may not go under America anymore but it will never be crushed by a group of half wit schoolyard bullies claiming divine right. It will simply appear else where... what your country is discarding will be found by others.

Where you find liberty, there you will find me.

[Vessol]

AF, just wanted to say that I don't mean to be an arse about it or anything, you're awesome and I sometimes get it into my mind that "Fuck it, let's just go out with a bang."

But in my mind, that is how all the oppressed in history have ever responded. I'd rather try something new.

I'm not saying just lay on the ground and surrender. If someone came to my property/community I'd fight myself or with my other neighbors in defense. But I would not march on some State house in order to "restore" anything.

I'll defend what is mine, and help those fight in a volunteer contract. But I would not dare think to imagine I could march on and claim to restore some sort of legitimacy to a government which would end up the same way eventually.

[Anti Federalist]

I know, and I see your point, I really do.

I've wound this out in my mind so many times, using so many variables, my brain feels like the WOPR computer in Wargames.

And every time I come to the same conclusion, that only an active resistance, with all the unknown variables that go along with it, can sufficiently discombobulate the system long enough for us to stop the march of tyranny.


AF, just wanted to say that I don't mean to be an arse about it or anything, you're awesome and I sometimes get it into my mind that "Fuck it, let's just go out with a bang."

But in my mind, that is how all the oppressed in history have ever responded. I'd rather try something new.

I'm not saying just lay on the ground and surrender. If someone came to my property/community I'd fight myself or with my other neighbors in defense. But I would not march on some State house in order to "restore" anything.

I'll defend what is mine, and help those fight in a volunteer contract. But I would not dare think to imagine I could march on and claim to restore some sort of legitimacy to a government which would end up the same way eventually.

[phill4paul]

Not time yet. But may come soon. In the words of someone I know....

...HOLD.....;)

I hate to leave this interesting discussion. As work comes early tomorrow I have to log. I look forward to taking this discussion up again.

[Kludge]

So give up?

Run away?

Fuck it all, it all means shit?

That's the answer?

I think so.

I cannot co-exist with government, "tyrannical" or not.

Anarchy almost certainly won't work out with the mass of morons which make up the Majority & Minority, so... My wife & I are going out to experiment anarchy in a cave with a "selective society."

First "law"? Our children will never learn English.

[Vessol]

I think humans are naturally inclined to self-governship. Give it a generation or two after this with no State and it would come back naturally.

[heavenlyboy34]

I think so.

I cannot co-exist with government, "tyrannical" or not.

Anarchy almost certainly won't work out with the mass of morons which make up the Majority & Minority, so... My wife & I are going out to experiment anarchy in a cave with a "selective society."

First "law"? Our children will never learn English.


"Experiment" with anarchy? What do you hope to prove that other Stateless societies haven't? :confused::eek:

[american.swan]

Best case is for states to leave, but they won't. They don't have the guts to try. States leaving in mass would mess up Washington in a lot of ways. Their soldiers would have to fight a "civil war" in each state. And machinery in one state would be less available against another state.

I have a feeling the liberals starving will attack first for their government handout. It might be an excuse to go after the peaceful conservatives who aren't involved.

I think, as libertarians, we have to survive to mold the next government as best as we can. It won't be easy by any measure.

Maybe Taiwan was right. Flee to a safe place and start over. When push comes to shove and food is scarce, I think we can all come together somewhere. WHERE? We should have a plan.

[Working Poor]

I love all my buds here freedom fighters everyone!!!

[Kludge]

"Experiment" with anarchy? What do you hope to prove that other Stateless societies haven't? :confused::eek:

The difference being we wouldn't necessarily have to allow you to join.

[Live_Free_Or_Die]

I know, and I see your point, I really do.

I've wound this out in my mind so many times, using so many variables, my brain feels like the WOPR computer in Wargames.

And every time I come to the same conclusion, that only an active resistance, with all the unknown variables that go along with it, can sufficiently discombobulate the system long enough for us to stop the march of tyranny.

Let's face it. Of all the people who give lip service to liberty there is only a small number would sign a declaration and find the courage to see it through.

This quote from the other thread just says it all:

"Justice will not be served until those who are unaffected are as outraged as those who are."
— Benjamin Franklin


If you are surrounded by a bunch of chickens who are only going to give lip service to their beliefs it would be better to work against them politically and help bring about a much larger state so more people can be affected quicker.

[Danke]

I think so.

I cannot co-exist with government, "tyrannical" or not.

Anarchy almost certainly won't work out with the mass of morons which make up the Majority & Minority, so... My wife & I are going out to experiment anarchy in a cave with a "selective society."

First "law"? Our children will never learn English.

Good luck with that, there won't be any bees pretty soon, and they won't be delivering Soylent Green to caves.

Besides, your wife will end up leaving you for another caveman eventually.

[Kludge]

Good luck with that, there won't be any bees pretty soon, and they won't be delivering Soylent Green to caves.

Besides, your wife will end up leaving you for another caveman eventually.


You'll still have HB34 in your profile page, asshole.

<3

(We're good on the $300 re-negotiation sooner than later - don't let me forget.)

[osan]

Jail us all.

They already have. :(


They hurt themselves the most.

Demonstrate, please.


I will continue living my life oblivious to Gov't regulations.

That is what they want.


Resistance is a waste of effort -- make them do the work.

They will happily do it - mainly because it is not they who do the actual "work". There are plenty of donkeys out there. More than you can count, and given the right carrot, they will come for you and kill you and everyone dear to you if they are so instructed. Don't be a fool.

[nbruno322]

If passive resistance doesn't work than who is Ron Paul? Who was Mises, who was Christ himself? Did they not resist and fight? How could one man shake the foundation of an establishment with mere words?

How could one man, never issuing any threat, but instead presenting an idea, an idea more powerful than any past or future army, have such a profound effect?

Don't confuse passive resistance with non-violent resistance.

Non-violent resistance can be very effective and should NOT be dismissed.

Think of MLK, Ghandi, South Africa apartheid, etc.

Our movement is growing by leaps and bounds and is on the trajectory to take over the GOP in the not so distant future. Violence would completely reverse all of this and would actually play into the hands of the establishment, neo cons, and progressives.

[Kludge]

They already have. :(

Demonstrate, please.


Demonstrate, please.

They pay for food, water, shelter, and security.

We get it free.

What do we lose? Time, arguably.


That is what they want.

I had no idea the gov't wanted me to violate their laws, fail to pay in- ---, and fail to eat as they recommend.


They will happily do it - mainly because it is not they who do the actual "work". There are plenty of donkeys out there. More than you can count, and given the right carrot, they will come for you and kill you and everyone dear to you if they are so instructed. Don't be a fool.

There are plenty of donkeys out there. That's why I'm leaving (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?p=2778994#post2778994).

[pcosmar]

They don't make prisoners work in Jail. Free shelter, free food, free security.

If jails turn into labor camps, this can be re-evaluated - but as-is, the government's shitting the bed each time it jails citizens (even moreso with watch-wearing "enemy combatants").
Don't think it can't happen again. History repeats.

The entrance to Auschwitz I. The now notorious motto over the gate, "Arbeit macht frei", translates as "Work makes you free."
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/61/Auschwitz_gate_%28tbertor1%29.jpg/800px-Auschwitz_gate_%28tbertor1%29.jpg

[hamilton1049]

There is no evidence implying the US government will exterminate millions of its citizens for failing to bow to its regulations while still maintaining the NAP. The death penalty is nearing death.

Tell that to the 80 dead men women and children in Waco.

[hamilton1049]

There is no chance you'd be returning to your homestead, it would be suicide. Good luck tho!

http://www.usmilitary.tv/images/us_military_collage_zus6.jpg

Ask these guys if they are going to turn all that hi tech stuff on their brothers, sisters, mothers and fathers.

You'd have a fight within a fight on your hands that you would not believe.

[jmdrake]

Everyone should watch the documentary A Force More Powerful (http://www.aforcemorepowerful.org/films/afmp/stories/denmark.php) and pay close attention to the section about Denmark. These people used non violent resistance to stand up to the Nazis! Sure there was some sporadic sabotage thrown in for good measure, but most of the action was from general strikes, mass protests etc. The key is that the people were united and they acted without fear.

[Kludge]

Tell that to the 80 dead men women and children in Waco.

Good point.

However, the Davidians actively resisted.

[jmdrake]

Christ did passively resist, except in the case of beating and whipping the banksters of his day and time.

And was crucified for it.

You can't measure the success of a revolution on the life expectancy of its leader. Do you think Jesus would have lived longer had he been more like Barabas? Long term the Jewish uprising ended at Massada. The Christian uprising ended with Christianity overtaking the Roman empire. (Ok. At that point Christianity became corrupted itself. But that's another story.)


Tell that to the 80 dead men women and children in Waco.

Yes Waco was a sad story. But they were not passively resisting. Contrast Waco with the fundamentalist LDS group. The government swooped in and stole their children, but had to give them back once the truth came out that the whole "please rescue me" phone call had been faked.

Anyway, people should read Ecclesiastes 3:1-8 carefully. There is a time for everything.

[jmdrake]

From: http://www.aforcemorepowerful.org/films/afmp/stories/denmark.php

DENMARK - LIVING WITH THE ENEMY

By the summer of 1943, in the midst of World War II, Denmark has been occupied by German forces for more than three years. Resistance to the invaders has been sporadic, mainly limited to displays of Danish cultural identity or scattered acts of sabotage. But now, provoked by German brutality, the Danes act more boldly to resist the Nazi war machine. Mass nonviolent direct action begins first with labor strikes. Then when SS troops arrive to round up Danish Jews for deportation to the death camps, the Danes rescue their fellow citizens, ferrying most to safety in Sweden. The effort galvanizes many Danes, and soon general strikes challenge German control, and the Danish underground emphasizes nonviolent operations. Although Denmark is not liberated until the end of the war, nonviolent resistance has stymied German plans for extracting value from the occupation.
Denmark Overview

In 1940, during the earliest stages of World War II, Adolf Hitler's army of darkness tightens its grip over most of continental Europe, including Germany's northern neighbor, Denmark. The Nazis, who seek to exploit other countries' agriculture and industry for the broader war effort, occupy Denmark in a swift and surgical operation. Peter Munch, the minister of foreign affairs, is handed an ultimatum: cooperate with the Third Reich or else. He does.

Under a unified government, Munch initiates a "negotiation under protest" strategy with the Germans that is designed to protect Danish lives and salvage cultural identity. Munch reasons that because Denmark has not fought Germany, it cannot therefore be classified as a "conquered" nation. Operating under the assumption that the war will be short, the Dane's goal is to buy time with the Germans while projecting the appearance of cooperation.

The challenge lies in creating inventive ways to undermine German objectives without provoking direct confrontation. Subtle tactics such as work slowdowns, for example, hinder the German effort to extract resources. To contest German dominion over Danish life, the country engages in a sudden renaissance of Danish culture and a swelling of national pride, manifesting itself in public songfests and a festival commemorating King Christian's birthday.

Not all the resistance is exclusively nonviolent. Sabotage by an aggressive Danish underground invites harsh reprisals from the Germans. In the spring of 1943, however, Danish workers strike for higher wages, and in August, strikes against German countermeasures take place in 33 Danish cities and towns. This form of resistance outstretches Germany's ability to control the country.

When the Danish government refuses direct orders to prohibit public meetings or impose curfews or press censorship on its own people, Germany puts it out of business and quickly places troops at railroad stations, power plants, factories, and other key facilities.

In September, word leaks out that the Nazis are about to round up Danish Jews for exportation. This galvanizes Danish citizens into active and potentially life-threatening resistance. To evade their pursuers, most Jews are funneled to neutral Sweden by Danish resisters. In a testament to human determination, only 472 out of roughly 8,000 Danish Jews are lost to Hitler's "final solution."

In 1944, a watershed year for the resistance, more than 11 million copies of underground newspapers are published. That June, following a declared state of emergency, the entire city of Copenhagen goes on strike. Infuriated, Germany floods the city with troops, cuts off water and electricity, and establishes a blockade. By July 2, 23 Danes have been killed and more than 203 are wounded. But the dauntless Danes persevere. Exasperated, the Germans abandon these punitive measures by July.

Later that fall, when the Germans try to deport Danish police officials whom they believe are turning a blind eye to sabotage and disorder, Copenhagen goes on strike again, joined this time by 58 other cities and towns. Unintimidated by Gestapo arrests, civilians flock to the resistance movement; enrollment exceeds 45,000 at its highest point. In May 1945, war-ravaged Berlin succumbs to advancing Allied forces, prompting Germany to abandon Denmark altogether. Thanks to civic unity and non-cooperation, the Danes have denied the Germans much of the value of occupation and emerge largely unscathed from the war.
Denmark Timeline

April 9, 1940
Germany invades Denmark.

Early 1942
Anti-German sabotage within occupied Denmark begins.

July 1943
Anti-German strikes begin in Odense and spread across Denmark.

August 28, 1943
The Danish government rejects the German ultimatum to crack down on resistance; Danish ministers resign in protest.

October 1943
Germans begin the round-up of Jews in Denmark; helped by other Danes, almost all the Jews escape to Sweden.

September 16, 1943
The Freedom Council is established.

June 26, 1944
Copenhagen workers start leaving work early; a general strike begins.

July 3, 1944
German officials give in to the strikers' demands.

May 4, 1945
Germany capitulates to Allies.
Denmark People

HERBERT PUNDIK was 12 years old in 1940 when the Germans entered Copenhagen. He joined the Danish resistance at the age of 15, but participated only briefly for fear of endangering his family. Like many other Danish Jews, Pundik and his family briefly went into hiding, before being smuggled to safety in Sweden. Mr. Pundik has written extensively about the Holocaust, including a book titled, In Denmark It Could Not Happen: The Flight of the Jews to Sweden in 1943.

In 1942, at the age of 18, AXEL LUNDJQUIST joined the Studenternens Skytte Foreing, an outlawed student sport club. Led by officers from the Danish Army, members of the club transformed themselves into a resistance group. Lunjquist also helped to hide Jews and transport them to safety. In 1944, he joined the armed resistance group Holger Danske.

BORGE HOFF was 24 in 1940 and was working at Burmeister and Wains shipyard at the measuring and protecting attic. He joined the communists in early 1942. While at the shipyard, Hoff participated in an organized sabotage over the presence of Nazi guards in the shipyard, as well as a worker walkout. He joined a resistance group and assisted in a food relief campaign to victims of the war.
Ten Commandments for Danes

Arne Sejr was seventeen when the Germans invaded. On the first day of the occupation, he noticed that people in his small town were friendly to the German soldiers, and he was outraged. He went home and typed up twenty-five copies of a list of "commandments" to his fellow Danes:

1. You must not go to work in Germany and Norway.

2. You shall do a bad job for the Germans.

3. You shall work slowly for the Germans.

4. You shall destroy important machines and tools.

5. You shall destroy everything that may be of benefit to the Germans.

6. You shall delay all transport.

7. You shall boycott German and Italian films and papers.

8. You must not shop at Nazis' stores.

9. You shall treat traitors for what they are worth.

10. You shall protect anyone chased by the Germans.

Join the Struggle for the freedom of Denmark!

Sejr then stuffed his list into the mailboxes of the most prominent people in his town. The commandments were later recopied and passed from hand to hand to people all over the country.
Nonviolent National Defense

Most stories of nonviolent action have been about movements to win rights or overthrow authoritarian regimes. In Denmark the challenge was different. The Danes used nonviolent action as a form of national defense against an invader. The resistance was not strong enough to defeat the German war machine – that was left to the military of the allied countries – but it protected Danish society and culture and frustrated Germany's efforts to exploit Danish resources.

The first stirrings of resistance were expressions of Danes' national identity. For example, students refused to speak German in language classes. "Songfests" brought people together to sing traditional Danish songs. In all these ways Danes asserted their autonomy.

Strikes effectively challenged German control. In the summer of 1943 workers went on strike in dozens of cities in Denmark to protest curfews, the posting of troops inside factories and shipyards and the killings of civilians by soldiers. A year later a new curfew triggered a general strike in Copenhagen. Despite a military crackdown, the strikers held out until the Germans agreed to lift the curfew. The Germans learned that occupation carried a price in the form of civil disruption and lost production.

The most spectacular act of self-defense came in the fall of 1943. Werner Best, the top German official in Denmark, ordered the arrest of all Danish Jews for Friday, October 1. At Rosh Hashanah services the Jewish community learned of the impending raids, and people immediately scattered into hiding. All kinds of Danish organizations sheltered Jewish families – in private homes, in hospitals – and shuttled them to the coast, where fishing boats carried them across a narrow channel to neutral Sweden. In the end only 472 out of over 7,200 Danish Jews were captured by the Germans. The Danes could not physically expel the German forces, but they did rescue a large majority of the most threatened of their citizens from the jaws of the Holocaust.
Denmark Analysis

The occupation of a country subjects both the people and the invaders to a strange game of mutual suspicion: The occupier acts like a new owner and wants the tenants to behave and pay the rent on time, but those invaded feel violated – they know the country, by right, belongs to them, and while they cannot physically throw the occupiers out, they may well want to resist the invader's terms. Perhaps, if the invader finds the game is not worth the effort, he will leave. Or perhaps he will start killing uncooperative tenants. But the game gives one major advantage to those occupied: They will define the extent to which they are going to cooperate. And the offender, ironically, will have to defend his ill-gotten gains.

The Danish resisters took the offensive against German occupying forces. Through symbolic and cultural protests, they asserted their right to govern their own lives, and that strengthened public morale – which inspired bolder resistance. Through strikes, defiance at work sites, and damage to physical property, nonviolent resisters attacked the economic interests of the invaders. Through underground publishing, an alternate network of communication was established, to subvert the lies of the occupiers' propaganda. By involving so many civilians in strikes, demonstrations, and other forms of opposition, Danish resisters forced the Germans to stop violent reprisals and suspend curfews. They denied the Nazis their prime goal, on which other objectives depended: making the fact of occupation normal.

By definition, a successful military invasion gives the occupier superiority on the ground and in the air, in the ability to use physical force and violence. Despite that, when a military invader loses control of what the people read and believe, of when and if they work, of how they spend their money – when the occupiers are constantly on the defensive, as they try to maintain their position – their ability to command events is detached from their ability to use violence.

War contorts the history of the nations it touches, but it also exhibits the greatness of their peoples. The Danes challenged the most barbaric regime of the modern period and did so not with troops or tanks but with singing, striking, going home to garden, and standing in public squares. Yet the power they brought to bear in resisting the Nazis did not come only from these things. It came first from the essential decision that tens of thousands of them made, to refuse the terms they were offered by their tormentors – and it came from the underground movement they built and the strategy they used, to fling that decision in the face of their enemy and constrict his ability to fight.

Thanks to the civic solidarity that had nourished the resistance, Denmark emerged from the war in good condition. Allied authorities found that Denmark could not only feed itself but had surplus food to export to the rest of Europe. The Danes had withstood German occupation without undergoing many of the rigors experienced by other Europeans held down by the Nazis – a dividend of having resisted without violently tearing their society apart in the process. Some Danes were disappointed that more of their countrymen did not, like many Norwegians, Greeks, or Serbs, pick up guns and fight their occupiers at every depot, pier, and airfield, but the watery lowlands of Denmark were not ideal maneuvering ground for armed partisans, and by the time the Germans were pressed on all fronts in Europe, the Danish resistance had imposed a different but discernible cost on Nazi capabilities.

The Danes proved that however dreadful the opponent faced by those using nonviolent action, if resistance is resilient and imaginative, military sanctions are not enough to stamp out a popular movement – and violent reprisals may only harden the opposition. Knowing the Germans wanted normalcy in Denmark, the Danish resistance worked to deny them that, and it refrained from magnifying any disruption to the point of prompting overwhelming repression or endangering the lives of many civilians. If the Nazis, the cruelest killing machine in the century's history, could be kept off balance by Danish schoolboys, amateur saboteurs, and underground clergymen, what other regime should ever be thought invulnerable to nonviolent resistance?

[hamilton1049]

From: http://www.aforcemorepowerful.org/films/afmp/stories/denmark.php

DENMARK - LIVING WITH THE ENEMY

By the summer of 1943, in the midst of World War II, Denmark has been occupied by German forces for more than three years. Resistance to the invaders has been sporadic, mainly limited to displays of Danish cultural identity or scattered acts of sabotage. But now, provoked by German brutality, the Danes act more boldly to resist the Nazi war machine. Mass nonviolent direct action begins first with labor strikes. Then when SS troops arrive to round up Danish Jews for deportation to the death camps, the Danes rescue their fellow citizens, ferrying most to safety in Sweden. The effort galvanizes many Danes, and soon general strikes challenge German control, and the Danish underground emphasizes nonviolent operations. Although Denmark is not liberated until the end of the war, nonviolent resistance has stymied German plans for extracting value from the occupation.
Denmark Overview

In 1940, during the earliest stages of World War II, Adolf Hitler's army of darkness tightens its grip over most of continental Europe, including Germany's northern neighbor, Denmark. The Nazis, who seek to exploit other countries' agriculture and industry for the broader war effort, occupy Denmark in a swift and surgical operation. Peter Munch, the minister of foreign affairs, is handed an ultimatum: cooperate with the Third Reich or else. He does.

Under a unified government, Munch initiates a "negotiation under protest" strategy with the Germans that is designed to protect Danish lives and salvage cultural identity. Munch reasons that because Denmark has not fought Germany, it cannot therefore be classified as a "conquered" nation. Operating under the assumption that the war will be short, the Dane's goal is to buy time with the Germans while projecting the appearance of cooperation.

The challenge lies in creating inventive ways to undermine German objectives without provoking direct confrontation. Subtle tactics such as work slowdowns, for example, hinder the German effort to extract resources. To contest German dominion over Danish life, the country engages in a sudden renaissance of Danish culture and a swelling of national pride, manifesting itself in public songfests and a festival commemorating King Christian's birthday.

Not all the resistance is exclusively nonviolent. Sabotage by an aggressive Danish underground invites harsh reprisals from the Germans. In the spring of 1943, however, Danish workers strike for higher wages, and in August, strikes against German countermeasures take place in 33 Danish cities and towns. This form of resistance outstretches Germany's ability to control the country.

When the Danish government refuses direct orders to prohibit public meetings or impose curfews or press censorship on its own people, Germany puts it out of business and quickly places troops at railroad stations, power plants, factories, and other key facilities.

In September, word leaks out that the Nazis are about to round up Danish Jews for exportation. This galvanizes Danish citizens into active and potentially life-threatening resistance. To evade their pursuers, most Jews are funneled to neutral Sweden by Danish resisters. In a testament to human determination, only 472 out of roughly 8,000 Danish Jews are lost to Hitler's "final solution."

In 1944, a watershed year for the resistance, more than 11 million copies of underground newspapers are published. That June, following a declared state of emergency, the entire city of Copenhagen goes on strike. Infuriated, Germany floods the city with troops, cuts off water and electricity, and establishes a blockade. By July 2, 23 Danes have been killed and more than 203 are wounded. But the dauntless Danes persevere. Exasperated, the Germans abandon these punitive measures by July.

Later that fall, when the Germans try to deport Danish police officials whom they believe are turning a blind eye to sabotage and disorder, Copenhagen goes on strike again, joined this time by 58 other cities and towns. Unintimidated by Gestapo arrests, civilians flock to the resistance movement; enrollment exceeds 45,000 at its highest point. In May 1945, war-ravaged Berlin succumbs to advancing Allied forces, prompting Germany to abandon Denmark altogether. Thanks to civic unity and non-cooperation, the Danes have denied the Germans much of the value of occupation and emerge largely unscathed from the war.
Denmark Timeline

April 9, 1940
Germany invades Denmark.

Early 1942
Anti-German sabotage within occupied Denmark begins.

July 1943
Anti-German strikes begin in Odense and spread across Denmark.

August 28, 1943
The Danish government rejects the German ultimatum to crack down on resistance; Danish ministers resign in protest.

October 1943
Germans begin the round-up of Jews in Denmark; helped by other Danes, almost all the Jews escape to Sweden.

September 16, 1943
The Freedom Council is established.

June 26, 1944
Copenhagen workers start leaving work early; a general strike begins.

July 3, 1944
German officials give in to the strikers' demands.

May 4, 1945
Germany capitulates to Allies.
Denmark People

HERBERT PUNDIK was 12 years old in 1940 when the Germans entered Copenhagen. He joined the Danish resistance at the age of 15, but participated only briefly for fear of endangering his family. Like many other Danish Jews, Pundik and his family briefly went into hiding, before being smuggled to safety in Sweden. Mr. Pundik has written extensively about the Holocaust, including a book titled, In Denmark It Could Not Happen: The Flight of the Jews to Sweden in 1943.

In 1942, at the age of 18, AXEL LUNDJQUIST joined the Studenternens Skytte Foreing, an outlawed student sport club. Led by officers from the Danish Army, members of the club transformed themselves into a resistance group. Lunjquist also helped to hide Jews and transport them to safety. In 1944, he joined the armed resistance group Holger Danske.

BORGE HOFF was 24 in 1940 and was working at Burmeister and Wains shipyard at the measuring and protecting attic. He joined the communists in early 1942. While at the shipyard, Hoff participated in an organized sabotage over the presence of Nazi guards in the shipyard, as well as a worker walkout. He joined a resistance group and assisted in a food relief campaign to victims of the war.
Ten Commandments for Danes

Arne Sejr was seventeen when the Germans invaded. On the first day of the occupation, he noticed that people in his small town were friendly to the German soldiers, and he was outraged. He went home and typed up twenty-five copies of a list of "commandments" to his fellow Danes:

1. You must not go to work in Germany and Norway.

2. You shall do a bad job for the Germans.

3. You shall work slowly for the Germans.

4. You shall destroy important machines and tools.

5. You shall destroy everything that may be of benefit to the Germans.

6. You shall delay all transport.

7. You shall boycott German and Italian films and papers.

8. You must not shop at Nazis' stores.

9. You shall treat traitors for what they are worth.

10. You shall protect anyone chased by the Germans.

Join the Struggle for the freedom of Denmark!

Sejr then stuffed his list into the mailboxes of the most prominent people in his town. The commandments were later recopied and passed from hand to hand to people all over the country.
Nonviolent National Defense

Most stories of nonviolent action have been about movements to win rights or overthrow authoritarian regimes. In Denmark the challenge was different. The Danes used nonviolent action as a form of national defense against an invader. The resistance was not strong enough to defeat the German war machine – that was left to the military of the allied countries – but it protected Danish society and culture and frustrated Germany's efforts to exploit Danish resources.

The first stirrings of resistance were expressions of Danes' national identity. For example, students refused to speak German in language classes. "Songfests" brought people together to sing traditional Danish songs. In all these ways Danes asserted their autonomy.

Strikes effectively challenged German control. In the summer of 1943 workers went on strike in dozens of cities in Denmark to protest curfews, the posting of troops inside factories and shipyards and the killings of civilians by soldiers. A year later a new curfew triggered a general strike in Copenhagen. Despite a military crackdown, the strikers held out until the Germans agreed to lift the curfew. The Germans learned that occupation carried a price in the form of civil disruption and lost production.

The most spectacular act of self-defense came in the fall of 1943. Werner Best, the top German official in Denmark, ordered the arrest of all Danish Jews for Friday, October 1. At Rosh Hashanah services the Jewish community learned of the impending raids, and people immediately scattered into hiding. All kinds of Danish organizations sheltered Jewish families – in private homes, in hospitals – and shuttled them to the coast, where fishing boats carried them across a narrow channel to neutral Sweden. In the end only 472 out of over 7,200 Danish Jews were captured by the Germans. The Danes could not physically expel the German forces, but they did rescue a large majority of the most threatened of their citizens from the jaws of the Holocaust.
Denmark Analysis

The occupation of a country subjects both the people and the invaders to a strange game of mutual suspicion: The occupier acts like a new owner and wants the tenants to behave and pay the rent on time, but those invaded feel violated – they know the country, by right, belongs to them, and while they cannot physically throw the occupiers out, they may well want to resist the invader's terms. Perhaps, if the invader finds the game is not worth the effort, he will leave. Or perhaps he will start killing uncooperative tenants. But the game gives one major advantage to those occupied: They will define the extent to which they are going to cooperate. And the offender, ironically, will have to defend his ill-gotten gains.

The Danish resisters took the offensive against German occupying forces. Through symbolic and cultural protests, they asserted their right to govern their own lives, and that strengthened public morale – which inspired bolder resistance. Through strikes, defiance at work sites, and damage to physical property, nonviolent resisters attacked the economic interests of the invaders. Through underground publishing, an alternate network of communication was established, to subvert the lies of the occupiers' propaganda. By involving so many civilians in strikes, demonstrations, and other forms of opposition, Danish resisters forced the Germans to stop violent reprisals and suspend curfews. They denied the Nazis their prime goal, on which other objectives depended: making the fact of occupation normal.

By definition, a successful military invasion gives the occupier superiority on the ground and in the air, in the ability to use physical force and violence. Despite that, when a military invader loses control of what the people read and believe, of when and if they work, of how they spend their money – when the occupiers are constantly on the defensive, as they try to maintain their position – their ability to command events is detached from their ability to use violence.

War contorts the history of the nations it touches, but it also exhibits the greatness of their peoples. The Danes challenged the most barbaric regime of the modern period and did so not with troops or tanks but with singing, striking, going home to garden, and standing in public squares. Yet the power they brought to bear in resisting the Nazis did not come only from these things. It came first from the essential decision that tens of thousands of them made, to refuse the terms they were offered by their tormentors – and it came from the underground movement they built and the strategy they used, to fling that decision in the face of their enemy and constrict his ability to fight.

Thanks to the civic solidarity that had nourished the resistance, Denmark emerged from the war in good condition. Allied authorities found that Denmark could not only feed itself but had surplus food to export to the rest of Europe. The Danes had withstood German occupation without undergoing many of the rigors experienced by other Europeans held down by the Nazis – a dividend of having resisted without violently tearing their society apart in the process. Some Danes were disappointed that more of their countrymen did not, like many Norwegians, Greeks, or Serbs, pick up guns and fight their occupiers at every depot, pier, and airfield, but the watery lowlands of Denmark were not ideal maneuvering ground for armed partisans, and by the time the Germans were pressed on all fronts in Europe, the Danish resistance had imposed a different but discernible cost on Nazi capabilities.

The Danes proved that however dreadful the opponent faced by those using nonviolent action, if resistance is resilient and imaginative, military sanctions are not enough to stamp out a popular movement – and violent reprisals may only harden the opposition. Knowing the Germans wanted normalcy in Denmark, the Danish resistance worked to deny them that, and it refrained from magnifying any disruption to the point of prompting overwhelming repression or endangering the lives of many civilians. If the Nazis, the cruelest killing machine in the century's history, could be kept off balance by Danish schoolboys, amateur saboteurs, and underground clergymen, what other regime should ever be thought invulnerable to nonviolent resistance?

This does no apply, what Denmark did saved Denmark and tied up valuable assets that were needed else where by the 3rd Reich, and was courageous and commendable. It was the violent destruction of the 3rd Reich by the allies that freed Denmark.

[osan]

Demonstrate, please.

Strap a gun onto your hip and stroll down Fifth Avenue in Manhattan and see how free you are. "Jail" does not require concrete walls and iron bars.




They pay for food, water, shelter, and security.

We get it free.

What do we lose? Time, arguably.

"Government" pays? If by "government" you mean "we", then perhaps we agree. Otherwise, no.

We get nothing 'Free". Someone pays for everything in one way or another. You need to rid yourself of these silly notions.




I had no idea the gov't wanted me to violate their laws, fail to pay in- ---, and fail to eat as they recommend.

They most certainly do. That gives them leverage over you if you happen to be a person of interest. Otherwise, I suspect they could give a shit one way or another. There's plenty of prison space, and when it runs out, we can build plenty more.

[TNforPaul45]

Christ did passively resist, except in the case of beating and whipping the banksters of his day and time.

And was crucified for it.

I stand with you AF, a little rebellion is like a refreshing storm from time to time.

But Jesus, being the exception not the rule, had a purpose in his passive resistance. He was taking our sins away, and had to die on the Cross.

Believe me, some day, when he comes back riding His white horse and wages total war on that ultimate tyrant, that old dragon, the term "passive resistance" will be the farthest notion from His mind.

That said, and with the idea that Jesus told us to "turn to him that strikes you the other cheek," we still have a ways to go (less than ever before mind you) before it comes to arms for our defense.

This is an interesting question, one that has been pondered in both thought and action: Do we fight for our liberty, or do we lay down for our faith? I think that there are times for both, and that God would not have us to die like ignorant sheep.

[jmdrake]

This does no apply, what Denmark did saved Denmark and tied up valuable assets that were needed else where by the 3rd Reich, and was courageous and commendable. It was the violent destruction of the 3rd Reich by the allies that freed Denmark.

Sure it applies. Empires are as much about extracting value from the territory they occupy as they are about the use of force. The reason the allies were able to win is largely because Germany was outproduced.

[Danke]

You'll still have HB34 in your profile page, asshole.



Did your new "wife" make you get rid of your old friends?

"Kludge has not made any friends yet"

[aravoth]

The tool of the free man is education and logic.

In the modern world, people are free in spirit only, yet even that statement is a stretch.

[Kludge]

Strap a gun onto your hip and stroll down Fifth Avenue in Manhattan and see how free you are. "Jail" does not require concrete walls and iron bars.

I do as I please (which coincidentally does not include walking around populated areas with firearms). I have not yet been arrested.


"Government" pays? If by "government" you mean "we", then perhaps we agree. Otherwise, no.

We get nothing 'Free". Someone pays for everything in one way or another. You need to rid yourself of these silly notions.

I don't pay for it -- taxpayers do. Increased taxpayer burden will increase tax resistance will increase taxpayer burden will increase tax resistance... and on.




They most certainly do. That gives them leverage over you if you happen to be a person of interest. Otherwise, I suspect they could give a shit one way or another. There's plenty of prison space, and when it runs out, we can build plenty more.

:) Maybe I can be put in a prison Dick Cheney owns -- that'd give me a rather goofy grin. :D

[pcosmar]

Good point.

However, the Davidians actively resisted.

WRONG

The Davidian's defended themselves when attacked.

They also made the mistake of letting the enemy reload.

I personally think they should have destroyed the attacking force, when they had the opportunity.
But that is just an objective assessment after the fact.

[Pericles]

WRONG

The Davidian's defended themselves when attacked.

They also made the mistake of letting the enemy reload.

I personally think they should have destroyed the attacking force, when they had the opportunity.
But that is just an objective assessment after the fact.

There is a lesson there to be learned by those who can see it.

Total destruction of an attacking force is a morale builder, and there is only one side left to tell what happened.

[Mattsa]

I don't know.

That goes beyond my level of wisdom and intelligence.

If you had to press me for an answer, I'd say, yes, revanchist as it may be, let's try to establish a limited government constitutional order.

It's not perfect, but it's better than the alternatives I'm looking at right now.

All I know is the globalists are poised to pulverize us one way or the other, "peacefully" or with active resistance.

Fabian socialism is all about 'engineering consent', getting people to do what THEY want without resorting to actual violence.

DEBT is surely the most powerful tool in their armoury, especially when you consider the entire monetary system is a sham. The people believe the debt is real and nobody wants to lose their home or their business.

When they can't engineer consent anymore, they'll resort to more traditional means of control..............They'll start killing people.

It's the socialist way!

Europe's history is soaked in blood, all because greedy powerful men always seek to control the majority.

[jmdrake]

WRONG

The Davidian's defended themselves when attacked.

They also made the mistake of letting the enemy reload.

I personally think they should have destroyed the attacking force, when they had the opportunity.
But that is just an objective assessment after the fact.

Ummm...what's the difference between "defending yourself" and "active resistance"? :confused:

Anyway, I already pointed out the difference between how the Davidians ended up and the fundy mormans. The Davidians did manage to bloody the nose of the "beast". The fundy mormans initially lost all their kids, but got them back and won a major PR victory against the "beast" when it was shown that the "Save me Sarah" phone call was a hoax. Had they gone down "guns blazing" the truth might have been buried just like it's been largely buried with regards to the Davidians.

[puppetmaster]

So the answer is to continue to let them crush us slowly?

That's what I'm coming to realize...we're all dead men walking if the globalists get their way, which seems pretty on track.

I'll die on my feet, not on my knees.


yes

[puppetmaster]

Fight back through non-violent means.

Education being primarily amongst them.

The tool of the globalists is violence and coercion.

The tool of the free man is education and logic.

educate first, then it will take lives of the educated to win. no other way around it some will die

[tremendoustie]

They won't jail you, if push comes to shove.

They will kill you.

Yes, and once the general US population sees an obviously peaceful person, let alone a number of obviously peaceful persons, gunned down in cold blood, it's game over.

Their illusion of legitimacy is their greatest weapon, and the cornerstone of their power -- not their guns. A few hundred cannot control 300 million at gunpoint.

If you pick up a gun to fight, you will be killed, and passed off as a nutjob, and the public will eat it up. It's happened many times before.

If you want to beat them, strike at their illusion of legitimacy. That means cameras, not guns.

[jmdrake]

Yes, and once the general US population sees an obviously peaceful person, let alone a number of obviously peaceful persons, gunned down in cold blood, it's game over.

Their illusion of legitimacy is their greatest weapon, and the cornerstone of their power -- not their guns. A few hundred cannot control 300 million at gunpoint.

If you pick up a gun to fight, you will be killed, and passed off as a nutjob, and the public will eat it up. It's happened many times before.

If you want to beat them, strike at their illusion of legitimacy. That means cameras, not guns.

And that's the power of non violent resistance. It works better at winning hearts and minds. The "infowar" to use Alex Jones language. But it can also work against Nazi thugs and the Danes demonstrated in WW II.

[Vessol]

Yes, and once the general US population sees an obviously peaceful person, let alone a number of obviously peaceful persons, gunned down in cold blood, it's game over.

Their illusion of legitimacy is their greatest weapon, and the cornerstone of their power -- not their guns. A few hundred cannot control 300 million at gunpoint.

If you pick up a gun to fight, you will be killed, and passed off as a nutjob, and the public will eat it up. It's happened many times before.

If you want to beat them, strike at their illusion of legitimacy. That means cameras, not guns.

People are conditioned and controlled in ways, but it would be impossible to make people not question if they completely cracked down on non-violent protesters.

We have the moral high ground.

We will win in the end.

[ClayTrainor]

Ask these guys if they are going to turn all that hi tech stuff on their brothers, sisters, mothers and fathers.

You'd have a fight within a fight on your hands that you would not believe.

That's an interesting point, but if you put a different uniform on a state employees, the picture changes a bit.

http://photos.upi.com/slideshow/lbox/f1f87ed45537c8201f4906b3ab8ebe36/G20-PROTESTERS-PITTSBURGH.jpg

http://www.joebrower.com/PHILE_PILE/PIX/JBTS/Charleston_APC.jpg


http://i.telegraph.co.uk/telegraph/multimedia/archive/01489/G20-17_1489022i.jpg

http://www.peoplereformparty.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/police-brutality.jpg

[AmericaFyeah92]

So give up?

Run away?

Fuck it all, it all means shit?

That's the answer?

Yes. America won't last forever, and it was never meant to. By walking away, you affirm your status as an individual, loyal only to ideas and not to arbitrary territories or rulers.

The system doesn't need to be overthrown: it will destroy itself. These entitlements, endless wars, and national debt will eventually bankrupt the establishment. When people are being drafted to go fight half a world away, stop receiving their "benefits," and pay 50% taxes, the system will crumble.

Our job will then be to lead the way, through a spread of ideas and activism, to pick up the pieces and establish a new order based on natural rights and liberty. Fighting an entrenched but dying establishment by force of arms is counter-productive, save those efforts for AFTER the collapse.

[Anti Federalist]

4. You shall destroy important machines and tools.

5. You shall destroy everything that may be of benefit to the Germans.

There are plenty of folks here who would say that even that ^^^ was unacceptable.

[hamilton1049]

Sure it applies. Empires are as much about extracting value from the territory they occupy as they are about the use of force. The reason the allies were able to win is largely because Germany was outproduced.

Absolutely true, that's why we bombed Germany back into the stone age day and night. We didn't bomb Denmark with nearly the gusto because the level of production there was not going to save the Reich in any event.

The story of Denmark's resistance in WWII is one of courage and great sacrifice. But it was not entirely passive. Nor was it decisive in Germany's final defeat.

Quite the opposite, without the violent assault on Germany mounted by the allies at the same time it is unlikely that the Denmark's resistance would have succeeded to the degree that it did.

[YumYum]

The Christian uprising ended with Christianity overtaking the Roman empire. (Ok. At that point Christianity became corrupted itself. But that's another story.)

I don't want to derail a good thread, but I needed to point out it was the Apostle Paul who corrupted Christianity.

[hamilton1049]

That's an interesting point, but if you put a different uniform on a state employees, the picture changes a bit.

http://photos.upi.com/slideshow/lbox/f1f87ed45537c8201f4906b3ab8ebe36/G20-PROTESTERS-PITTSBURGH.jpg

http://www.joebrower.com/PHILE_PILE/PIX/JBTS/Charleston_APC.jpg


http://i.telegraph.co.uk/telegraph/multimedia/archive/01489/G20-17_1489022i.jpg

http://www.peoplereformparty.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/police-brutality.jpg

A big difference between that and F22s and Abrams tanks, if that's the best they got it's their funeral.

[Anti Federalist]

Yes. America won't last forever, and it was never meant to. By walking away, you affirm your status as an individual, loyal only to ideas and not to arbitrary territories or rulers.

The system doesn't need to be overthrown: it will destroy itself. These entitlements, endless wars, and national debt will eventually bankrupt the establishment. When people are being drafted to go fight half a world away, stop receiving their "benefits," and pay 50% taxes, the system will crumble.

Our job will then be to lead the way, through a spread of ideas and activism, to pick up the pieces and establish a new order based on natural rights and liberty. Fighting an entrenched but dying establishment by force of arms is counter-productive, save those efforts for AFTER the collapse.

Walk away to where?

[Anti Federalist]

I don't want to derail a good thread, but I needed to point out it was the Apostle Paul who corrupted Christianity.

A point I can agree with completely.

[Austrian Econ Disciple]

Anti-Federalist I would highly recommend you research into the Velvet Revolution. While both means of resistance are in accordance w/ Natural Law I feel that more can be accomplished by widespread civil disobedience and non-cooperation, than to meet the gun with the gun, and by all means I am prepared if absolutely need be for the latter.

[YumYum]

Anti-Federalist I would highly recommend you research into the Velvet Revolution. While both means of resistance are in accordance w/ Natural Law I feel that more can be accomplished by widespread civil disobedience and non-cooperation, than to meet the gun with the gun, and by all means I am prepared if absolutely need be for the latter.

Americans are not Czechs. We have the highest percentage of a population that is on "nut-medications", and we like violence. The hippies tried the peace movement and realized it was a waste of time. The Black Panthers accomplished a lot more with a lot less.

[Pericles]

Anti-Federalist I would highly recommend you research into the Velvet Revolution. While both means of resistance are in accordance w/ Natural Law I feel that more can be accomplished by widespread civil disobedience and non-cooperation, than to meet the gun with the gun, and by all means I am prepared if absolutely need be for the latter.
The Warsaw Pact collapsed because Gorbachev refused to use the Soviet military to stop the demonstrations and the local communist governments did not trust that their national armies could be relied upon to crack down on the demonstrations.

Some of the East German stuff released by the Bundesrepublik is fascinating reading.

[Austrian Econ Disciple]

The Warsaw Pact collapsed because Gorbachev refused to use the Soviet military to stop the demonstrations and the local communist governments did not trust that their national armies could be relied upon to crack down on the demonstrations.

Some of the East German stuff released by the Bundesrepublik is fascinating reading.

I'm sorry, but when you have national strikes, and a million people in demonstrations non-cooperating and using civil disobedience you have no power. The communists had no power once the people refused consent. That is all we have to do to topple the beast, is refuse consent to anything they do, unless of course the methods espoused by Etienne de La Boetie, and Henry David Thoreau are wrong? Where then does the Government derive its power without the consent either through the force of violence, or by tacit approval of the people?

When people are willing to let go of everything, the Government has no more power over them, and has no power themselves.

I certainly don't see this happening throughout the country, but in certain parts? Most definitely, and it will succeed, just as though meeting the gun with the gun can succeed, but the former is the more powerful option I believe, and while qualifying this I am certainly not taking the latter off the possible resistance list.

[jmdrake]

I don't want to derail a good thread, but I needed to point out it was the Apostle Paul who corrupted Christianity.

Hmmmmm....how can I respond to this without derailing the thread?

Ok. I think I've got it. I'm not talking about the church being corrupted theologically. I'm talking about the church being corrupted by becoming and instrument of persecution. Now whether you agree with Paul or not theologically (I happen to agree with Paul) I think you can agree that Paul quit persecuting people after becoming a Christian. But after the Christian church merged with the Roman empire it became an instrument of persecution itself.

[klamath]

Yes, and once the general US population sees an obviously peaceful person, let alone a number of obviously peaceful persons, gunned down in cold blood, it's game over.

Their illusion of legitimacy is their greatest weapon, and the cornerstone of their power -- not their guns. A few hundred cannot control 300 million at gunpoint.

If you pick up a gun to fight, you will be killed, and passed off as a nutjob, and the public will eat it up. It's happened many times before.

If you want to beat them, strike at their illusion of legitimacy. That means cameras, not guns.

Absolutely. If you are going to die for freedom die in the most effective manner. Die with your hands up for all the world to see. Die with your guns blazing you will be Mcveigh to the masses and will have brought no changes.

[jmdrake]

Absolutely true, that's why we bombed Germany back into the stone age day and night. We didn't bomb Denmark with nearly the gusto because the level of production there was not going to save the Reich in any event.

The story of Denmark's resistance in WWII is one of courage and great sacrifice. But it was not entirely passive. Nor was it decisive in Germany's final defeat.

Quite the opposite, without the violent assault on Germany mounted by the allies at the same time it is unlikely that the Denmark's resistance would have succeeded to the degree that it did.

And if the German people had decided to passively resist their government too? Towards the end of the war a lot of Germans were sick of Hitler. It wasn't just the generals who attempted to kill Hitler that were sick of him.

As far as how much Denmark's resistance could have worked without the allies, it was working well before the allies managed to turn the tide of the war. I agree it wasn't totally non violent and pointed that out in my first post. (Actually it wasn't "passive" at all in the sense that a general strike itself is action). But they were arguably far more successful at thwarting the Germans than other countries that took a more "active" role. How well did Poland resist the Germans again? France? Had these other countries taken the model of Denmark where everybody took individual responsibility to resist to the utmost, the war may have ended sooner. Instead most countries left the majority of violent resistance up to the soldiers, along with some minor actions by "resistance fighters", but average everyday people went along. The turned they neighbors in to the Gestapo. They ratted out the Jews. They supplied material and lodging to German troops. People basically did what they had to in order to survive. I can't say that I blame them. But that's another advantage of massive non-violent resistance. Everybody can take part. Most everybody must take part if it has a chance to work.

[jmdrake]

4. You shall destroy important machines and tools.

5. You shall destroy everything that may be of benefit to the Germans.
There are plenty of folks here who would say that even that ^^^ was unacceptable.

True. That's why for this to work people need to become fully educated on what non-violent resistance means. And people have to quit worshiping "property". Some people see violence against property at almost the same level as violence against persons. There is no record of Jesus ever hitting a person. He knocked over money changer tables (violence against property) and he did make a whip of cords to drive the animals out (and possibly scare the merchants), but there's no record that he actually used violence against any person. (It's possible he did, but it's not spelled out in the record.) By the same token the "Sons of Liberty" were engaged in non-violent resistance when they threw tea overboard. (Yes I know that many of these same people later joined in a violent revolution. I'm just making a point about that particular incident).

Here's another story of non-violent resistance that I recall from World War II. Some Jewish concentration camp victims were forced to work in the factories that made V2 rockets. These workers routinely would urinate on the control circuits before installing them. Thanks to this many rockets flew off course. A small act of resistance, but every little bit helps.

[tremendoustie]

True. That's why for this to work people need to become fully educated on what non-violent resistance means. And people have to quit worshiping "property". Some people see violence against property at almost the same level as violence against persons. There is no record of Jesus ever hitting a person. He knocked over money changer tables (violence against property) and he did make a whip of cords to drive the animals out (and possibly scare the merchants), but there's no record that he actually used violence against any person. (It's possible he did, but it's not spelled out in the record.) By the same token the "Sons of Liberty" were engaged in non-violent resistance when they threw tea overboard. (Yes I know that many of these same people later joined in a violent revolution. I'm just making a point about that particular incident).

Here's another story of non-violent resistance that I recall from World War II. Some Jewish concentration camp victims were forced to work in the factories that made V2 rockets. These workers routinely would urinate on the control circuits before installing them. Thanks to this many rockets flew off course. A small act of resistance, but every little bit helps.

I do consider violence against property wrong. However, I don't think the state legitimately owns property, so that moral rule does not apply.

That said, I think it's an ineffective, and counterproductive strategy ... though not nearly as ineffective or counterproductive as violence against persons.

On the other hand, if a particular piece of equipment is currently being used to harm people, or is about to be used for that purpose, and that piece of equipment mysteriously stopped working, I can't say I'd complain ...

[Anti Federalist]

Anti-Federalist I would highly recommend you research into the Velvet Revolution. While both means of resistance are in accordance w/ Natural Law I feel that more can be accomplished by widespread civil disobedience and non-cooperation, than to meet the gun with the gun, and by all means I am prepared if absolutely need be for the latter.

AED, thanks for the tip, I'll certainly look into it.

And maybe that's the case, I hope that it is.

I think that's all I'm saying: be prepared for that reality, that a fight is the only course left.

[phill4paul]

Good debate to all that have posted. For myself I leave all options on the table. Time and circumstance, I believe, will dictate my actions and no amount of scenario generation will cover every instance. There are simply too many variables.
In the meantime it has become increasingly frustrating trying to educate individuals. Most simply do not wish to engage and it leads me to wonder what sort of event will finally bring them to a new realization.

[Anti Federalist]

Here's another story of non-violent resistance that I recall from World War II. Some Jewish concentration camp victims were forced to work in the factories that made V2 rockets. These workers routinely would urinate on the control circuits before installing them. Thanks to this many rockets flew off course. A small act of resistance, but every little bit helps.

Sure, a great act of "monkey wrenching".

But is that not destrcution of property? (and yes, I see TT's response, that the state cannot own property)

But those rockets had to belong to someone, no?

[Anti Federalist]

Good debate to all that have posted. For myself I leave all options on the table.

Agreed on both points.

It has been a good discussion, of a literal life and death situation.

I appreciate everybody's input.

[Austrian Econ Disciple]

Sure, a great act of "monkey wrenching".

But is that not destrcution of property? (and yes, I see TT's response, that the state cannot own property)

But those rockets had to belong to someone, no?

Yes, they had to belong to someone, but was that property acquired justly? If not, then they do not own it legitimately. Take this scenario.

You are walking down an alley and a mugger steals your wallet. The mugger now owns your wallet. Two weeks later by happenstance you see your robber. You run over to him, and take your wallet. Are you robbing the robber, or are you merely retrieving your own property.

Another scenario:

That same robber three weeks later, gets robbed by another. He yells, "Stop thief!". Is this situation actually a robbery? No. The person who robbed you gave up that right of property through that act on that item. A robber, cannot be robbed of what he had robbed.

[AmericaFyeah92]

Walk away to where?

Switzerland, Hong Kong, Argentina, Alaska (still pretty untamed), the Caribbean

[klamath]

It can't get much worse in this country we need to start a violent revolution.....

Your isolated bugout farm.
http://i783.photobucket.com/albums/yy113/klamath21/pict0010.jpg?t=1278471558

Your villege and neighbors.
http://i783.photobucket.com/albums/yy113/klamath21/pict0036.jpg?t=1278471558

How to mark your home for non destruction if you're lucky enough that the dominent militia in your area is on your side. To bad for your neighbor that didn't believe the same as you.
http://i783.photobucket.com/albums/yy113/klamath21/pict0047.jpg?t=1278471558

How to mark the minefield buried in your survival orchard.
http://i783.photobucket.com/albums/yy113/klamath21/pict0002.jpg?t=1278471558

Too bad for you the dominent militia wasn't yours but it was your neighbors...
http://i783.photobucket.com/albums/yy113/klamath21/pict0003.jpg?t=1278471558

Ok, it isn't safe in the villege or or isolated in the country I am just going to stay quietly in my apartment in the middle of a big city.
http://i783.photobucket.com/albums/yy113/klamath21/pict0024.jpg?t=1278471558

I will be in my bunker...
http://i783.photobucket.com/albums/yy113/klamath21/pict0025.jpg?t=1278471558

A peaceful place in the aftermath of the revolution for your family and friends and maybe yourself.
http://i783.photobucket.com/albums/yy113/klamath21/pict0037.jpg?t=1278471558

Too ARMS people to ARMS! Fight for our freedom!:rolleyes:
Photos taken during the time Klamath was deployed to Bosnia '98-'99

[jmdrake]

Sure, a great act of "monkey wrenching".

But is that not destrcution of property? (and yes, I see TT's response, that the state cannot own property)

But those rockets had to belong to someone, no?

Sure it is. That's why I wrote:

And people have to quit worshiping "property". Some people see violence against property at almost the same level as violence against persons.

I don't have any problem with destruction of property used to oppress someone. It doesn't matter if that property is privately owned or state owned. A privately owned buldozier being used to run over a peace activist in Gaza is fair game for sugar in the gas tank in my book. But I put property on a different level than people.

[jmdrake]

Yes, they had to belong to someone, but was that property acquired justly? If not, then they do not own it legitimately. Take this scenario.

You are walking down an alley and a mugger steals your wallet. The mugger now owns your wallet. Two weeks later by happenstance you see your robber. You run over to him, and take your wallet. Are you robbing the robber, or are you merely retrieving your own property.

Another scenario:

That same robber three weeks later, gets robbed by another. He yells, "Stop thief!". Is this situation actually a robbery? No. The person who robbed you gave up that right of property through that act on that item. A robber, cannot be robbed of what he had robbed.

Let's stick with the mugging scenario. The mugger has bought a gun. He earned the money honestly. He mugs you, but you happen to have special forces training and you take his gun from him. Do you have to give it back to him? Or can you keep it and/or destroy it because he misused it?

[osan]

So the answer is to continue to let them crush us slowly?

Good point, but let me adjust it a bit by adding that while IMO non-violence is the best bet on the whole, well considered and surgically executed assassinations of key players and perhaps the destruction of certain properties can add quite an impulse to the game. Those in power should quake in their boots at the very thought of displeasing us - of violating our rights. If executions help get that point across, then so be it. I have no problem whatsoever with executing those guilty of treason.


That's what I'm coming to realize...we're all dead men walking if the globalists get their way, which seems pretty on track.

I'll die on my feet, not on my knees.

Oh, they stand the best chance of victory over us, rest you certain there. Nothing is forgone, but as things stand at this very moment, they have us by the balls. One of my largest concerns remains the recruitment of civilians against other civilians. Degrade lifestyles sufficiently through economic destruction and there will always be large numbers of those who will don a uniform and follow orders blindly if someone gives them back their broadband connection and access to World of Warcraft. If they can get 10% of the civilians to side with them and take up arms against the rest in exchange for whatever token fortune has their attention (or maybe food), we're going to be in a fucking world of trouble, especially when that 10% rationalizes what they are doing and subsequently become screaming believers.

And let us not forget about the disaffected parasite class - the sorts who typically vote democrat - illegals and other "victim" groups - they would LOVE to put on a uniform and take their government-issued guns out for a little fun and games against the Eville(tm) suburbanites. There have to be at least 30 to 50 millions of those vermin.

Yes, the battle is uphill every step of the way and the slope is, methinks, a whole hell of a lot steeper than most people think... another reason to keep the violence to a bare minimum. Give them no excuse to loose the dogs.

[osan]

And this just shows the entire illegitimacy of the idea of the State.

+1 Dead on right.

Read Bastiat for a good exposition on that very topic or "The State" at the address below. Both are worth reading - they say largely the same things, but each has its particular POV.

[osan]

Right, which they will corrupt, infiltrate and destroy.

One thing you and a large number of people need to come to terms with is that ANYTHING can be subverted. It matters not in the least what form of government one contrives, for if the hearts of men are corrupt, any government they enact will run a parallel course.

It reminds me of a line from that horrid remake of "The Day The Earth Stood Still" where Klaatu (Keanu Reeves) says, in response for a request for help with technology: "You're problem is not technology - the problem is you." That statement is SO right on the money. People often choose corruption over its far more demanding complement. In human affairs the entropy principle reigns supreme, which is why small bands of determined, cause-oriented people have consistently been able to maneuver themselves into positions of elite power. The decay and destruction of the rest results because the mob generally remains content to allow it as long as their lives are perceived as being tolerably decent. Those people rarely notice the callouses forming on their senses of decency such that when Rip Van Winkle awakes, he cannot fathom the squalor and slavery he beholds, which took place in thin measures over years.

On the whole, people are hopelessly lazy and stupid, and that is precisely the way they want to stay. It is easier to believe the lies so they will not have to lift a finger in response, save to say "right on" as they grab that next toot, football game, beer, porn site, or whatever it is that pleasantly keeps the truth of just how bankrupt their lives really are at arm's length from their awareness.

Yeah, we're probably all quite fucked. Let me be proven wrong on this. That would make my day.

[osan]

I think humans are naturally inclined to self-governship. Give it a generation or two after this with no State and it would come back naturally.

You're pretty damned smart, judging by much of what you write, but here you are as wrong as it comes. People are inclined to self-governing where there is no external influence to the contrary. Once introduced, most people will fall in line and do as they are told - especially so when the culture from which they come inclines them so. Free people tend to fight the yoke, often unto utter destruction, but once conquered, the tendency to do as they are told almost no matter how ridiculous an order may be, becomes overwhelmingly strong. Dunno why this is the case, but I am pretty sure it is all rooted in the fundamental mechanisms of human cognition.

An example of this is my career as a hired gun in the IT field. My standard procedure is to go into a client's site, whip my balls out and set them up on the table so that everyone can see my pair is bigger than God's. It is all an act, but hell if it doesn't work every single time. When I assume the position of alpha dog, the rest fall in line and do as I say. Imagine walking into a $250MM project and simply taking over - I did that when I was a mere child of 29. I got away with it because I was willing to put it out there that I had the biggest one in the world and nobody challenged me - it is not in the nature of people from a culture such as this to question authority. We moved away from that in the 20th century and have been running away from it since then. Changing this will be a motherfucking monumental task and it will span at least 2 full generations. The scariest thing about it is that in another two, things could be right back where they are now.

[Anti Federalist]

I appreciate your input Klamath.

The death and destruction documented by these photos, was, in large part, due to rapid and complete collapse of the former USSR, its currency and military/political/industrial system.

That "lifted the lid" on the ethnic and religious squabbles that had been part of this area of the world for centuries.

That would explain to me why the destruction was so meaningless and factional in nature.

There is a lesson to be learned here though. As our own regime becomes more authoritarian and clamps down harder and harder, the "boil over" that will occur when the system collapses (for many of the same reasons the USSR collapsed - debt, war, not making shit) will be that much greater.

That being said, a principled fight for freedom ≠ a bloodbath of mindless factional fighting.


It can't get much worse in this country we need to start a violent revolution.....

Your isolated bugout farm.
http://i783.photobucket.com/albums/yy113/klamath21/pict0010.jpg?t=1278471558

Your villege and neighbors.
http://i783.photobucket.com/albums/yy113/klamath21/pict0036.jpg?t=1278471558

How to mark your home for non destruction if you're lucky enough that the dominent militia in your area is on your side. To bad for your neighbor that didn't believe the same as you.
http://i783.photobucket.com/albums/yy113/klamath21/pict0047.jpg?t=1278471558

How to mark the minefield buried in your survival orchard.
http://i783.photobucket.com/albums/yy113/klamath21/pict0002.jpg?t=1278471558

Too bad for you the dominent militia wasn't yours but it was your neighbors...
http://i783.photobucket.com/albums/yy113/klamath21/pict0003.jpg?t=1278471558

Ok, it isn't safe in the villege or or isolated in the country I am just going to stay quietly in my apartment in the middle of a big city.
http://i783.photobucket.com/albums/yy113/klamath21/pict0024.jpg?t=1278471558

I will be in my bunker...
http://i783.photobucket.com/albums/yy113/klamath21/pict0025.jpg?t=1278471558

A peaceful place in the aftermath of the revolution for your family and friends and maybe yourself.
http://i783.photobucket.com/albums/yy113/klamath21/pict0037.jpg?t=1278471558

Too ARMS people to ARMS! Fight for our freedom!:rolleyes:
Photos taken during the time Klamath was deployed to Bosnia '98-'99

[klamath]

I appreciate your input Klamath.

The death and destruction documented by these photos, was, in large part, due to rapid and complete collapse of the former USSR, its currency and military/political/industrial system.

That "lifted the lid" on the ethnic and religious squabbles that had been part of this area of the world for centuries.

That would explain to me why the destruction was so meaningless and factional in nature.

There is a lesson to be learned here though. As our own regime becomes more authoritarian and clamps down harder and harder, the "boil over" that will occur when the system collapses (for many of the same reasons the USSR collapsed - debt, war, not making shit) will be that much greater.

That being said, a principled fight for freedom ≠ a bloodbath of mindless factional fighting.

Sorry it would. Do you really think that this group is the only group that thinks it is fighting for freedom? Have you ever spent any time on real leftist forums? Have you ever spent any time on white or black racist sites? Once the violence genie is released every one of those groups are going to take on their fight for freedom. Right now it wouldn't happen but by the time the stablility of the country was such that a significant number of people took to arms the divisions and hate would have built plenty high for the warring factions to commit these kind of atrocities. I saw the same hate in Iraq. I don't care what you saw on the news the majority of the killing done there was iraqi against iraqi. We just triggered it with our invasion.
When this country as a whole stops being Americans every group in this country will turn against itself bringing a lot of oldworld hate out.

[osan]

I do as I please (which coincidentally does not include walking around populated areas with firearms). I have not yet been arrested.

Irrelevant and evasive. I said "Go strap on..." etc. and you respond with this nonsense. If you are an apologist for state "authority", at least be decent enough to admit it.


I don't pay for it -- taxpayers do. Increased taxpayer burden will increase tax resistance will increase taxpayer burden will increase tax resistance... and on.


Are you stating that you are not a taxpayer? If so, you are then one of the parasites. How quaint.

[ninepointfive]

Not time yet. But may come soon. In the words of someone I know....

...HOLD.....;)




Both peaceful and aggressive resistance are legitimate applications of will.
It's cost/benefit that determine the course of action.

The pen is said to be mightier than the sword. Should anyone prove to be able to toss a pen at 100 yards, striking down an enemy, then I'll believe it.

[Anti Federalist]

Sorry it would. Do you really think that this group is the only group that thinks it is fighting for freedom? Have you ever spent any time on real leftist forums? Have you ever spent any time on white or black racist sites? Once the violence genie is released every one of those groups are going to take on their fight for freedom. Right now it wouldn't happen but by the time the stablility of the country was such that a significant number of people took to arms the divisions and hate would have built plenty high for the warring factions to commit these kind of atrocities. I saw the same hate in Iraq. I don't care what you saw on the news the majority of the killing done there was iraqi against iraqi. We just triggered it with our invasion.
When this country as a whole stops being Americans every group in this country will turn against itself bringing a lot of oldworld hate out.

What you are describing is inevitable anyway.

The old system is unsustainable, and in it's dying days it will become increasingly tyrannical, until the sudden collapse, followed by the factional fighting.

So, what do you suggest?

Personally, I prefer peaceful secession, with the option always on the table to defend that secession with force.

[jmdrake]

What you are describing is inevitable anyway.

The old system is unsustainable, and in it's dying days it will become increasingly tyrannical, until the sudden collapse, followed by the factional fighting.

So, what do you suggest?

Personally, I prefer peaceful secession, with the option always on the table to defend that secession with force.

That we work peacefully to try to win the hearts and minds of our friends and relatives and in hope that they will replicate our work and try to peacefully win the hearts and minds of their friends and relatives and we do so in as humble a way as possible. I'm not down with the whole "secession" thing. Not after reading the confederate constitution. :sad: I'm not interested in creating a new "boss". Not even if that boss is a local state. And what happens when folks want to secede from the secession?

We need to be more active in getting the truth out. As the Word says "the truth will set you free".

[klamath]

What you are describing is inevitable anyway.

The old system is unsustainable, and in it's dying days it will become increasingly tyrannical, until the sudden collapse, followed by the factional fighting.

So, what do you suggest?

Personally, I prefer peaceful secession, with the option always on the table to defend that secession with force.

Maybe, maybe not. There are times man has to fight, however until EVERY last avenue to solve the problems peacefully are exhausted keep your hand off the trigger. Even when we are forced to resort to violence the chances of success are far far smaller than trying to win a peaceful solution. Our nation now is far to trigger happy with the foreign wars and for us to get trigger happy in our own country would become a very sad thing, just like overseas.

[Pericles]

I'm sorry, but when you have national strikes, and a million people in demonstrations non-cooperating and using civil disobedience you have no power. The communists had no power once the people refused consent. That is all we have to do to topple the beast, is refuse consent to anything they do, unless of course the methods espoused by Etienne de La Boetie, and Henry David Thoreau are wrong? Where then does the Government derive its power without the consent either through the force of violence, or by tacit approval of the people?

When people are willing to let go of everything, the Government has no more power over them, and has no power themselves.

I certainly don't see this happening throughout the country, but in certain parts? Most definitely, and it will succeed, just as though meeting the gun with the gun can succeed, but the former is the more powerful option I believe, and while qualifying this I am certainly not taking the latter off the possible resistance list.

Were you on the German border listening in to it as it was happening?

Compare 1989 to 1968 and 1956 when the Soviet Army did show up.