the sheeple still rate FDR #1 pres

[SooperDave]

brainwashed...pathetic. saw on aol

[ChaosControl]

They like locking up people into internment camps.
Racist scumbags.

[Fredom101]

Blame government schools.

Chinese students are not likely taught about the horrendous acts of Mao either.

[michaelwise]

Andrew Jackson is my favorite.

[Uncle Emanuel Watkins]

brainwashed...pathetic. saw on aol

People are never as stupid as we think they are.

[tremendoustie]

Sickening.

I don't think it's really because they support everything FDR did, it's because government schools indoctrination camps don't teach any actual history these days. FDR, to them, was the guy who won WW2 and fixed the great depression. That's all they know.

[Uncle Emanuel Watkins]

Sickening.

I don't think it's really because they support everything FDR did, it's because government schools indoctrination camps don't teach any actual history these days. FDR, to them, was the guy who won WW2 and fixed the great depression. That's all they know.

Just how did FDR not raise the wages of workers by hiring them away from the robber barons to work in Federal programs? Why did these former robber barons take FDR to court trying to stop his political methods? Why was it okay for the government to allocate the wealth that created the robber barons and then not okay for it to use wealth to help the poor workers?
I ask these question when it would be better for me to just let them eat their cake. In other words, I already have the greatest tyrant to ever live on my side in the person of Saul / of the chosen vessel Apostle Paul. According to his take on the situation, when people have a choice between becoming masters or remaining slaves, they are far better off choosing to remain the latter.
That should be a strong warning for anyone partaking in the over heated business of tyranny.

[james1906]

Sickening.

I don't think it's really because they support everything FDR did, it's because government schools indoctrination camps don't teach any actual history these days. FDR, to them, was the guy who won WW2 and fixed the great depression. That's all they know.

He saved us from the laissez-faire capitalism of the Roaring 20s!

[Uncle Emanuel Watkins]

Andrew Jackson is my favorite.

Andrew Jackson led a contigent of Anglos, African Americans, and Native Americans against the British in Lousiana. He was victorious against far superior odds. Perhaps this battle more than any other helped convince the British that, culturally speaking, the United States was a lost hope. As acting president, the man was the first Abe Lincoln to save the Union. He was extremely popular.

[Uncle Emanuel Watkins]

He saved us from the laissez-faire capitalism of the Roaring 20s!

Pimping isn't the problem. It is the willingness of his whores to go along with his tyranny that is the problem. But as parents learn as responsible shepherds, we should expect to be treated with contempt and even hated at times by those we care for.

[Brooklyn Red Leg]

Had an argument with a Brit on another board who basically all but jizzed on himself about how FDR saved America. Witness....


Christov
The New Deal pulled the economy out of the shitter, gave the public a greater sense of financial security than ever before, legislated and regulated the financial system enough to stop boom and bust (until it was later systematically dismantled by successor Governments, resulting in our current catastrophic economy), and his plans for a second bill of rights were nothing short of revolutionary.

Brooklyn Red Leg
Are you fucking SHITTING ME? We had a fucking RECESSION in the middle of the Great Depression! Despite whatever you were taught, The Great Depression did not end until Harry Truman cut government spending and reduced taxes following the end of the 2nd World War.

BTW, the boom/bust cycle has NOT stopped and was NOT stopped by FDR. Its a result of the policies of The Federal Reserve System, Fractional Reserve Banking and Fiat Currency.

Christov
And the causes of such recession are widely disputed. Everything from cutting federal spending to the Federal Reserve tightening the money supply are blamed for this. One thing is definite about it though, it was a temporary recession buffeted by continual growth pre and post downturn, and by 1937 the private sector had grown to the levels they had reached before the Great Depression.

Brooklyn Red Leg
The Great Depression did not end until Harry Truman cut government spending and reduced taxes following the end of the 2nd World War.

Christov
Again, this is widely arguable because of a multitude of reasons. I've already stated that by 1937 the private sector was back to 1929 levels and continued to grow during World War 2, and some might even say the Great Depression was actually over in 1940, but the majority of growth post-war was not because of tax cuts or reduced spending, but instead because of Asia and Europe's decimated industry which allowed America to become the world's major manufacturer.

Of course the boom and bust system isn't gone, nor was it totally defeated by FDR, but the policies his Government put in place staved off major recessions until the point we are at now when most of such policies have been systematically dismantled in succeeding administrations.

And again, the causes of boom and bust are widely disputable, and I'm of the opinion that most recent examples of this type of economic failure have been caused by Corporatist monopolistic protectionism within both Government and the private sector itself.

This dumbass doesn't understand that FDR was the EPITOME of Corporatism in the 20th Century. No, to him, FDR was all about 'the little guy'.

[Austrian Econ Disciple]

Brooklyn you would have defeated him in the combat known as debatmanship if you had simply pointed out that unemployment levels from 1930 to 1941 never dropped below 15%, and indeed for all, but 2 years was above 20%. Ask him if he believes that GDP is an adequate measurement of an economy over unemployment and standard of living, and conversely if he says the former explain to him how inflation distorts GDP. All the evidence of inflation is in America's Great Depression by Rothbard. The Government actually increased the supply of money by over 30% by 1932, and then go on to show him Hoovers last statement about his futile attempts at Government spending to ail the economy.

Be armed with the truth and you shall cut down all your foes! :p

Oh, ask him about the depression of 1920.

[Brooklyn Red Leg]

Brooklyn you would have defeated him in the combat known as debatmanship if you had simply pointed out that employment levels from 1930 to 1941 never dropped below 15%, and indeed for all, but 2 years was above 20%. Ask him if he believes that GDP is an adequate measurement of an economy over unemployment and standard of living, and conversely if he says the former explain to him how inflation distorts GDP. All the evidence of inflation is in America's Great Depression by Rothbard. The Government actually increased the supply of money by over 30% by 1932, and then go on to show him Hoovers last statement about his futile attempts at Government spending to ail the economy.

Be armed with the truth and you shall cut down all your foes! :p

Oh, ask him about the depression of 1920.

Hehe, will do. :D

[Zippyjuan]

Presidents tend to get rated based on the size of the crisies they have to deal with. Survive a big crisis and you get ranked high. Don't have anything really major happen and get ignored. Have a crisis and don't deal with it well and get marked down.

On policy, you think a president did a good job if you agree with their political positions on things. An optomistic disposition helps too. Republicans are bigger on Reagan than Clinton and Democrats the other way around- even though in actual policy actions, Clinton was more conservative than Reagan was. It is mostly an emotional responce.

[Zippyjuan]

pointed out that employment levels from 1930 to 1941 never dropped below 15%, and indeed for all, but 2 years was above 20%.
Does this mean that 85% of people were out of work- or did you mean unemployment didn't drop below 15%?

[Austrian Econ Disciple]

Does this mean that 85% of people were out of work- or did you mean unemployment didn't drop below 15%?

My bad, thought I wrote unemployment. Yes, that is what I meant :p

[SooperDave]

Andrew Jackson is my favorite.

I believe he was the lowest ranked, lol

[biles1234]

To his credit, FDR, along with Reagan may have been the presidents that most prominently put their ideas into practice once they became elected. There's no doubt that FDR's legacy looms large today -- even if his ideas were based on crackpot Keynesian mythology

[Uriel999]

I believe he was the lowest ranked, lol

Wow, that is pathetic. He was definitely one of the best presidents this country had, and other than Tyler (Polk may have been a Jacksonian Democrat but he was inneffective), we haven't had a decent president since. My guess is the publik education system doesn't talk about him and how he saved the Union twice! Once from the British and once from itself. Damn society is retarded.

[tremendoustie]

Wow, that is pathetic. He was definitely one of the best presidents this country had, and other than Tyler (Polk may have been a Jacksonian Democrat but he was inneffective), we haven't had a decent president since. My guess is the publik education system doesn't talk about him and how he saved the Union twice! Once from the British and once from itself. Damn society is retarded.

I'm glad he fought the second fed, but he did a lot of other horrible things. Trail of tears comes to mind, as does the whole "how many divisions does the supreme court" have fiasco.

[Fredom101]

To his credit, FDR, along with Reagan may have been the presidents that most prominently put their ideas into practice once they became elected. There's no doubt that FDR's legacy looms large today -- even if his ideas were based on crackpot Keynesian mythology

Reagan's idea was to shrink gov't but he expanded it by 2/3rds. So you can take him off that list.

[emazur]

To his credit, FDR, along with Reagan may have been the presidents that most prominently put their ideas into practice once they became elected. There's no doubt that FDR's legacy looms large today -- even if his ideas were based on crackpot Keynesian mythology

You should read Great Myths of the Great Depression:
http://www.mackinac.org/archives/1998/sp1998-01.pdf
it talks about FDR's campaign promise to maintain a sound dollar based to gold to be preserved at all costs, and how Hoover's spending was leading the country towards socialism.

When Keynes first met FDR, Keynes said the man was completely ignorant about economics. I believe FDR also used anti-war rhetoric before getting into office.

[Galileo Galilei]

There's some good news among the rough; James Madison is rated # 6. It has taken over 100 years, but the neocon war propaganda of Henry Adams in 1889 is finally starting to wear off. Madison finished up his second term as the most popular president in the history of the United States for a president finishing out his second term.

What is amazing as that Madison is now rated ahead of Woodrow Wilson.

James Monroe, our most underrated president is rated # 7, ahead of Wilson as well.

Jefferson remains in the top 5, at # 5.

And Lincoln has dropped to # 3. He is almost always in the top two.

[Galileo Galilei]

The biggest joke on this poll; of the 20 criteria for rating the president, upholding the US Constitution is not listed among them.

[ClayTrainor]

FDR is in my top 3 worst presidents of all time.

1. Woodrow Wilson
2. Lincoln
3. FDR

[Galileo Galilei]

FDR is in my top 3 worst presidents of all time.

1. Woodrow Wilson
2. Lincoln
3. FDR

My worst:

1. Wilson
2. FDR
3. Truman
4. LBJ

[tremendoustie]

FDR is in my top 3 worst presidents of all time.

1. Woodrow Wilson
2. Lincoln
3. FDR

That's a pretty good list.

[Todd]

People are never as stupid as we think they are.

Sometimes, it's hard to tell.

If you look at what we have representing us as government for and by the people......and you realize that people get the government they deserve......it looks like those who think most of societies intelligence is suspect have the edge.

[libertybrewcity]

They should make a list of the presidents and how many deaths they are responsible for.

[libertybrewcity]

Lincoln: probably at least 600k

Bush: probably at least 2 or 3 million

Obama: probably at least 100K

LBJ: probably at least 1 million

Nixon: probably at least 2 or 3 million

Clinton: probably at least 1 million (sanctions, bombings, etc)

[pandalover]

Andrew Jackson is my favorite.

look up trial of tears

[Galileo Galilei]

look up trial of tears

In defense of Jackson, the American people overwhlemingly supported the trail of tears. To lay the blame on Jackson doesn't work for me. In those days, white people didn't like Indians, and Indians didn't like white people. It is not always the people on the top who are at fault, it is often the people on the bottom.

Much has not changed since the 1830s. Today, most people vote for criminals, socialists, neocons, liberals, NWO hacks, or all of the above when they get a chance to exercise power.

[Austrian Econ Disciple]

In defense of Jackson, the American people overwhlemingly supported the trail of tears. To lay the blame on Jackson doesn't work for me. In those days, white people didn't like Indians, and Indians didn't like white people. It is not always the people on the top who are at fault, it is often the people on the bottom.

Much has not changed since the 1830s. Today, most people vote for criminals, socialists, neocons, liberals, NWO hacks, or all of the above when they get a chance to exercise power.

You sure go to great lengths to defend the indefensible.

[james1906]

In defense of Jackson Hitler, the American German people overwhlemingly supported the trail of tears Holocaust. To lay the blame on Jackson Hitler doesn't work for me. In those days, white German people didn't like Indians Jews, and Indians Jews didn't like white German people. It is not always the people on the top who are at fault, it is often the people on the bottom.

Much has not changed since the 1830s. Today, most people vote for criminals, socialists, neocons, liberals, NWO hacks, or all of the above when they get a chance to exercise power.

I have updated your post.

[Galileo Galilei]

You sure go to great lengths to defend the indefensible.

I thought you opposed John Marshall and the Supreme Court? Did you know that Jackson represented the American people, he didn't represent the Indians? Did you know that the people of Georgia benefitted from the trail of tears?

byw - how did de-centralization work out for the Indians?

[catdd]

Jackson beat the bank. Name one other person who has done that since.
Ron Paul has been the only one to even come close.

[Galileo Galilei]

I have updated your post.

Hitler was elected.

[james1906]

Hitler was elected.

I know, and your point?

[Legend1104]

I'll tell you who I jus recently learned about that seems great. Grover Cleveland. Non-interventionist, supported a gold standard, was lassiez faire, against bailouts, well known to be extremely honest. He is also ran surpluses and used to veto more times than any president up until his time.

[james1906]

I'll tell you who I jus recently learned about that seems great. Grover Cleveland. Non-interventionist, supported a gold standard, was lassiez faire, against bailouts, well known to be extremely honest. He is also ran surpluses and used to veto more times than any president up until his time.

YouTube - Cleveland Rocks~The Presidents of the United States of America (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9yv8cQba18)

[Legend1104]

http://www.whitehouse.gov/about/presidents/grovercleveland22

[Jace]

My worst:

1. Wilson
2. FDR
3. Truman
4. LBJ

These are my worst too, in the same order. They all gave us conscription, foreign wars and industrial scale death.

Wilson gave us the Fed, the income tax and the imprisonment of war dissenters.

FDR gave us a decade-long depression, crackdowns on the press, internment camps for American citizens, massacres of civilians as war goals and 500,000 dead Americans overseas.

Truman gaves us a nuclear holocaust of Japanese civilians, and the Korean War.

I was just reading Phil Giraldi in the American Conservative about how recently released documents show that LBJ allowed the Israelis to steal huge amounts of uranium from American labs to develop 20-30 atomic bombs. Kennedy was blocking the Israeli nuke program and looked what happened to him. LBJ also turned a blind eye to the USS Liberty massacre, expanded the draft and the Vietnam War, and created a welfare state that destroyed American families, especially black families.

[Baptist]

FDR is in my top 3 worst presidents of all time.

1. Woodrow Wilson
2. Lincoln
3. FDR

My worst are

Lincoln, Wilson, FDR, Bush 43, Obama.

Favorites are

most of Jefferson, lots of Madison and Adams, some of Washington, lots of Coolidge and Cleavland.


Jackson got rid of the bank, but that does not make him cool. He killed civilized Native Americans, pissed on the Constitution in regards to the courts, and I believe that "Jacksonian Democracy" was the beginning of our political morph from a republic to a democracy.

[Baptist]

I have updated your post.


Good post. There is no excuse for what happened to those Indians in Georgia.

[Legend1104]

YouTube - President Bush Seeks: Grover Cleveland & George H. W. Bush (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gdcYWqYSSaE&NR=1&feature=fvwp)

[Galileo Galilei]

I know, and your point?

If an evil leader is elected and is just doing the will of the people, why lay all the blame with the evil leader? Are not the evil people equally, if not more, at fault?

Regarding Hitler, he did a lot of bad stuff that the voters approved of. Of course Hitler went far beyond what the people wanted or expected.

But Andrew Jackson didnt do shit that the people didn't want. American citizens in the 1830s didn't like Indians. They wanted the Indians out of Georgia.

Modern Jackson bashing is just more liberal BS that is trotted out by people who want a central bank.

[Austrian Econ Disciple]

If an evil leader is elected and is just doing the will of the people, why lay all the blame with the evil leader? Are not the evil people equally, if not more, at fault?

Regarding Hitler, he did a lot of bad stuff that the voters approved of. Of course Hitler went far beyond what the people wanted or expected.

But Andrew Jackson didnt do shit that the people didn't want. American citizens in the 1830s didn't like Indians. They wanted the Indians out of Georgia.

Modern Jackson bashing is just more liberal BS that is trotted out by people who want a central bank.

As half Cherokee I have to say you couldn't get any more callous. The Nuremburg defense is no defense at all. You can't even distinguish democracy from morality. Appalling.

[Galileo Galilei]

These are my worst too, in the same order. They all gave us conscription, foreign wars and industrial scale death.

Wilson gave us the Fed, the income tax and the imprisonment of war dissenters.

FDR gave us a decade-long depression, crackdowns on the press, internment camps for American citizens, massacres of civilians as war goals and 500,000 dead Americans overseas.

Truman gaves us a nuclear holocaust of Japanese civilians, and the Korean War.

I was just reading Phil Giraldi in the American Conservative about how recently released documents show that LBJ allowed the Israelis to steal huge amounts of uranium from American labs to develop 20-30 atomic bombs. Kennedy was blocking the Israeli nuke program and looked what happened to him. LBJ also turned a blind eye to the USS Liberty massacre, expanded the draft and the Vietnam War, and created a welfare state that destroyed American families, especially black families.

Truman was also the first president to usurp the power to declare war.

[Legend1104]

What kills me is that those presidents that actually had good economic sense and served during depressions that allowed them to ride out, are the ones that are punished. Look at martin van Buren and the panic of 1837 and Grover Cleveland and the depression of 1892. The did very little and both of these ended without long drawn out depressions. Yet we praise the great and powerful FDR who gave America the royal screw for nearly 15 years. It just isn't fair.

[Galileo Galilei]

As half Cherokee I have to say you couldn't get any more callous. The Nuremburg defense is no defense at all. You can't even distinguish democracy from morality. Appalling.

So what if you are part Cherokee? What's the other half? I'm part Swedish, French, Norweigan, Belgian, German and Italian. One thing I am not is a weak skinned liberal. I oppose the Fed. Modern Jackson bashing is a tactic to keep the Fed and grow it's power, and ward off the audit. Just because some Cherokees were killed 200 years ago don't mean we should help Bernake keep the Fed strong.

The reality is, the Indians were fighting each other for 10,000 years before the Europeans came to America. One tribe would attack another and vice-versa, on and on and on and on for thousands of years. Prove you are not descended from a tribe that engaged in this and maybe I'll care. I'm in favor of civilization.

[low preference guy]

I know, and your point?

Galileo is a wacko. Way too often he writes things that sound like defenses of Hitler.

Once he posted a poll asking: How would you have preferred that the Nazis killed you?

He fantasizes about Hitler's power.

[Galileo Galilei]

Galileo is a wacko. Way too often he writes things that sound like defenses of Hitler.

Once he posted a poll asking: How would you have preferred that the Nazis killed you?

He fantasizes about Hitler's power.

sorry, james1906 lost, he brought up Hitler first.

[low preference guy]

sorry, james1906 lost, he brought up Hitler first.

he didn't defend him. but you made excuses for him. "he was elected". lol.

[Galileo Galilei]

he didn't defend him. but you made excuses for him. "he was elected". lol.

I didn't vote for Hitler.

[Jace]

So what if you are part Cherokee? What's the other half? I'm part Swedish, French, Norweigan, Belgian, German and Italian. One thing I am not is a weak skinned liberal. I oppose the Fed. Modern Jackson bashing is a tactic to keep the Fed and grow it's power, and ward off the audit. Just because some Cherokees were killed 200 years ago don't mean we should help Bernake keep the Fed strong.

The reality is, the Indians were fighting each other for 10,000 years before the Europeans came to America. One tribe would attack another and vice-versa, on and on and on and on for thousands of years. Prove you are not descended from a tribe that engaged in this and maybe I'll care. I'm in favor of civilization.

He's part Cherokee. I'm part Irish. Bernie Madoff is part Jewish. We're all big victims. Hehe.

[low preference guy]

I didn't vote for Hitler.

where did I claim that? you've just confirmed it once again: Galileo is a wacko.

[Galileo Galilei]

where did I claim that? you've just confirmed it once again: Galileo is a wacko.

err, I just said I didn't vote for Hitler. You need not get so defensive.

[low preference guy]

err, I just said I didn't vote for Hitler. You need not get so defensive.

attack and defense are different things. lol.

[Galileo Galilei]

The best presidents:

1. James Madison - Madison is the only presdient to follow the Constitution during a major war. Frugal. He also led the most successful war against the British empire since William the Conqueror. Although congress started the war, Madison negotiated an end tot he war ablut halfway through its normally normal course. The war only lasted 2 1/2 years, saving many lives, much property, and much money.

2. James Monroe - era of Good Feelings. Frugal.

3. Thomas Jefferson - Louisiana Purchae, Lewis & Clark, frugal

4. George Washington

5. Andrew Jackson

Honorable mentions:

Zachary Taylor - a great president who was poisoned to death

Calvin Coolidge

Grover Cleveland

van Buren

Adams and Quincy Adams

Pierce

Fillmore

John Tyler

James Buchanan

Chester Arthur

JFK

[james1906]

sorry, james1906 lost, he brought up Hitler first.

I lost? But I didn't even know I was playing!

[silus]

Gan we just eliminate "sheeple" from our dictionary altogether?

[Galileo Galilei]

I lost? But I didn't even know I was playing!

Godwin's Law.

[james1906]

Godwin's Law.

http://reason.com/archives/2005/07/14/hands-off-hitler

[Galileo Galilei]

http://reason.com/archives/2005/07/14/hands-off-hitler

Godwin's law is part of the natural law. You can't repeal natural law.

:p

[low preference guy]

Godwin's law is part of the natural law. You can't repeal natural law.

:p

Yep. Just like you can't repeal your love for Hitler.

[Galileo Galilei]

Yep. Just like you can't repeal your love for Hitler.

I liked Mr. Hilter in one of those Monty Python episodes.

:mad:

[Uriel999]

The trail of tears was voluntary. The indians were offered to move or become citizens.

[cindy25]

My worst:

1. Wilson
2. FDR
3. Truman
4. LBJ

great list buy where is Lincoln?

[Austrian Econ Disciple]

The trail of tears was voluntary. The indians were offered to move or become citizens.

That's not voluntary.

[catdd]

Obviously Jackson was the last person on earth you wanted for an enemy because he played to win and he played for keeps. Just ask the English, the Central Bankers, or any of the people that dueled with him.

[osan]

Sickening.

I don't think it's really because they support everything FDR did, it's because government schools indoctrination camps don't teach any actual history these days. FDR, to them, was the guy who won WW2 and fixed the great depression. That's all they know.

True. They are usually far more so.

[Galileo Galilei]

great list buy where is Lincoln?

At least Lincoln's actions led to a lot of good, his actions led to 4 million prisoners gaining their liberty.

[osan]

Just how did FDR not raise the wages of workers by hiring them away from the robber barons to work in Federal programs? Why did these former robber barons take FDR to court trying to stop his political methods? Why was it okay for the government to allocate the wealth that created the robber barons and then not okay for it to use wealth to help the poor workers?
I ask these question when it would be better for me to just let them eat their cake. In other words, I already have the greatest tyrant to ever live on my side in the person of Saul / of the chosen vessel Apostle Paul. According to his take on the situation, when people have a choice between becoming masters or remaining slaves, they are far better off choosing to remain the latter.
That should be a strong warning for anyone partaking in the over heated business of tyranny.

Looks like we have a resident socialist/communist.

First of all, the so-called "robber barons" made your life possible. Yeah, they did some bad shit - they also did a lot of good. Without those guys, there would be no internet, for example - and you'd have probably died of diphtheria or some other horrid disease in your childhood. Forming institutions such as the Fed were acts of evil, I agree, but credit where due on all fronts.

Far more people benefitted from the activities in question than suffered from them. That aside, all things have their associated costs, including "progress". Had the bucolic life been actually better than that found in the cities, the industrial revolution would have fizzled. It boomed because people WANTED to participate. They wanted to because conditions in the cities, poor as they may be by OUR standards, was still better than those back on the farm. People are often pretty dumb, but not quite so much as one would be lead to infer by your assertions. There was nobody marching workers into factories at the ends of guns. They came of their own will. Conditions often sucked, but that was the nature of business in those times. You cannot judge them by current standards quite to the degree your words imply.

FDR's interferences with the market dragged the depression on for 13 years. Had he kept his mitts off, the crash would have been felt for maybe 6 months and we would have been recovered. The previous market crash... what was it.... 1920... don't recall offhand at the moment... Harding was urged almost to the point of violence to interfere. He steadfastly refuses, earning him the wrath of the money trust, but that crash, every bit as bad as that of '29, was fully recovered from in a few months. FDR was the penultimate American fascist.

[JeNNiF00F00]

:)

[JeNNiF00F00]

..

[pandalover]

If you think Lincoln was a bad president, then you must not have a brain

[-C-]

brainwashed...pathetic. saw on aol

You are actually the one Brainwashed. The only solution we have to stop the hyperinflationary policies is to restore Glass-Steagall. A law in which he signed, and to restore a fixed exchange rate system, through treaty agreement, to end this imploding floating exchange rate that undermines soveriegnty of nations. We have to absorb the Bankrupt Federal Reserve System into a National Bank, seperating commercial and investment banking.

[-C-]

If you think Lincoln was a bad president, then you must not have a brain

Truth. Jefferson Davis was a pawn to England.

[Galileo Galilei]

You think we are free today?

No, I have a master who beats me. He makes me work all day and doesn't pay me a dime. He feeds me if he feels like it. He never taught me to read or write. I'm not allowed to vote or run for public office. I can't get married without permission. My children were sold off at aution. So was my brother and sister.

But I am allowed to practice my own religion.

[pandalover]

You think we are free today?

you are never free, not even under pure anarchy. There will always be a group with some power or control over most within their own country, state, and/or communities.

[Travlyr]

you are never free, not even under pure anarchy. There will always be a group with some power or control over most within their own country, state, and/or communities.

Whoever controls the money supply controls society.

[pandalover]

Whoever controls the money supply controls society.

I'd rather be controlled under a democratic government than a bunch of Walton families

[Travlyr]

I'd rather be controlled under a democratic government than a bunch of Walton families

Sorry, but you don't get that choice. :p

[Dr.3D]

If you think Lincoln was a bad president, then you must not have a brain

And if you believe he was a good president, then you must believe what you were told in the government run schools.

[-C-]

And if you believe he was a good president, then you must believe what you were told in the government run schools.

I went to a private school my entire life, with conservative culture. Seems to me that the south were pawns to the British, via Lord Palmerston. The South exported 80% of their cotton to Britain. I mean the KKK, whom Boothe was a member of, started an as intelligence service for the confederacy. They had offices in Canada and London. The British were ready to accept the Confederate's Independence, first, before anyone else. Until Lincoln threatened war, and tensions that resulted from the Trent Affair, forcing London to back off. I mean the war of 1812 with the British, which didn't end in 1812, had just ended just a few decades before. We were still the greatest threat to Imperialism on the planet, and they tried to destroy us from within.

Lincoln's economic policies were an explicitly adverse policy to that of the British Empire's Merritime Dominance over Trade and floating values in Currency. The Same so-called "Free Trade" dogma that many buy into here.

[Legend1104]

I went to a private school my entire life, with conservative culture. Seems to me that the south were pawns to the British, via Lord Palmerston. The South exported 80% of their cotton to Britain. I mean the KKK, whom Boothe was a member of, started an as intelligence service for the confederacy. They had offices in Canada and London. The British were ready to accept the Confederate's Independence, first, before anyone else. Until Lincoln threatened war, and tensions that resulted from the Trent Affair, forcing London to back off. I mean the war of 1812 with the British, which didn't end in 1812, had just ended just a few decades before. We were still the greatest threat to Imperialism on the planet, and they tried to destroy us from within.

Lincoln's economic policies were an explicitly adverse policy to that of the British Empire's Merritime Dominance over Trade and floating values in Currency. The Same so-called "Free Trade" dogma that many buy into here.

I don't know how this always turns into a lincoln/civil war debate, but oh well. What does the relationship between Britain and the South have to do with Lincoln being a good or bad president. Lincoln was a bad president because he violated virtually every one of the Bill of Rights. He had people arrested who spoke out against him, he had guns confiscated, he deported a U.S. citizen, he had almost and entire stae legislature arrested, he shut down newspapers, condoned pileage, rape, the destruction of entire cities, supended habeas corpus, and I could go on. No one in the south really wanted a war. In fact many hoped and believed a war would never come. Just because the South left the U.S. did not mean a war was bound to happen, but Lincoln was determined to bring the south back, no matter the cost. The many reason was because he needed them for his American System.

[Theocrat]

He saved us from the laissez-faire capitalism of the Roaring 20s!

I laughed out loud at that. Also, I'd like to thank you for making me spit out my cookies. :mad:

[-C-]

I don't know how this always turns into a lincoln/civil war debate, but oh well. What does the relationship between Britain and the South have to do with Lincoln being a good or bad president. Lincoln was a bad president because he violated virtually every one of the Bill of Rights. He had people arrested who spoke out against him, he had guns confiscated, he deported a U.S. citizen, he had almost and entire stae legislature arrested, he shut down newspapers, condoned pileage, rape, the destruction of entire cities, supended habeas corpus, and I could go on. No one in the south really wanted a war. In fact many hoped and believed a war would never come. Just because the South left the U.S. did not mean a war was bound to happen, but Lincoln was determined to bring the south back, no matter the cost. The many reason was because he needed them for his American System.

I think you have this fairytale view of "War." As if it is pleasant, and as if the President had control over immediate actions taken by generals in the field at the time, on either side. You think Jefferson Davis, patsy to the Queen of England, would have allowed Lee to do what he did at Gettysburg, costing the lives of thousands with some rediculious Banzi charge uphill? You act like the south didnt rape, pillage, burn, execute people, or thrive off looting the labor-value of mankind. My Ancestry is almost entirely of the Confederate Breed. They were traitors, pawns to the Imperial Body we Declared Independence from. The same Imperial System controls Obama today, centered London, and it's control over wallstreet and the floating Forex.

The American System of Economics is rooted in Hamiltons own writing in the Federalist Papers, and his Report on Manufactures, and two reports on Public Credit. The one you reference used by Lincoln. Which Germany and Russia both modeled their economies on in the post-lincoln era. Thus leading the British to get them to fight amongst themselves in WWI, b/c they threatened the Empires merritime dominance. The Czar of Russia, and Chancellor of Germany at the time were cousins, and Prince, later King, Edward was their Uncle.

[Galileo Galilei]

And if you believe he was a good president, then you must believe what you were told in the government run schools.

You know, I went went to government run schools and never got the impression that Lincoln was a great man. This is coming from someone in Wisconsin. My imnpressions of Stonewall Jackson were better than Lincoln and even Robert E. Lee was better. We even have a historical monument near opur home regardignthe Black Hak war. Both Jefferson Davis and Abe Lincoln were in that war as soldiers (so was Zachary Taylor). But that's not really a big deal, doesn't impress me a whole lot.

Or just watch the PBS Civil War documetary by Ken Burns? After 9 episdoes, what exactly did Lincoln do? Not a whole lot. He tried to micro-mamange the troops. He never said or did anything positive about the Constitution. He had little experience. He didn't write any books. He never trie to negotiate peace to shorten the war. He was just a very average guy. Even his celebrated Gettysburg Address doesn't really grab me. Its very very short and doesn't say all that much. Lincoln should be listed as an average president, not a great president. I'm glad to see that he has at least dropped to # 3 in this poll.

[low preference guy]

Lincoln should be listed as an average president, not a great president.

More like worst President. He turned a voluntary union into an union maintained by coercion. No other President has done something more damaging.

[-C-]

More like worst President. He turned a voluntary union into an union maintained by coercion. No other President has done something more damaging.


You suggest the union didn't almost come apart in 1812 due to "coercion," or that it wasn't already coming apart by "coercion' before Licoln was even elected, which was the intended policy of Lord Palmerston of Britain at the time.

[Galileo Galilei]

More like worst President. He turned a voluntary union into an union maintained by coercion. No other President has done something more damaging.

That's totally false. Wilson did that with a structural change, the 17th Amendment. And also the 16th Amendment.

The structural changes after Lincoln were positive; the 13th Amendment banned slavery. The 14th Amendment banned states from depriving citizens fo life, liberty, property, priviledges, or immunites of citizens. This is what James Madison adviocated a long tome before. The Bill-of-Rights already bans the federal govenment from doing this.

This is the proper way to structure the government, give the central less power to regulate and legislate, and more power to enforce indiviual rights.

Wilson was far far worse than Lincoln. I think you are statist with pro-slavery sympathies and pro-Wilson sympathies. I defend individual liberty.

[low preference guy]

That's totally false.

If it's false that Lincoln turned a voluntary union into an union kept by force, why the South was forced to stay as part of the union?

[low preference guy]

I think you are statist with pro-slavery sympathies and pro-Wilson sympathies. I defend individual liberty.

Do you know what assuming makes you? I don't like Wilson. He is the second worst President. I also oppose slavery. That's why I oppose Lincoln's use of enslaved soldiers (drafted soldiers) to fight the war. If you are going to fight slavery, you shouldn't do it with a slave army, i.e., through conscription. I of course approve of all efforts people were making to free slaves that don't involve the enslaving of others through conscription.

[Uncle Emanuel Watkins]

Looks like we have a resident socialist/communist.

First of all, the so-called "robber barons" made your life possible. Yeah, they did some bad shit - they also did a lot of good. Without those guys, there would be no internet, for example - and you'd have probably died of diphtheria or some other horrid disease in your childhood. Forming institutions such as the Fed were acts of evil, I agree, but credit where due on all fronts.

Far more people benefitted from the activities in question than suffered from them. That aside, all things have their associated costs, including "progress". Had the bucolic life been actually better than that found in the cities, the industrial revolution would have fizzled. It boomed because people WANTED to participate. They wanted to because conditions in the cities, poor as they may be by OUR standards, was still better than those back on the farm. People are often pretty dumb, but not quite so much as one would be lead to infer by your assertions. There was nobody marching workers into factories at the ends of guns. They came of their own will. Conditions often sucked, but that was the nature of business in those times. You cannot judge them by current standards quite to the degree your words imply.

FDR's interferences with the market dragged the depression on for 13 years. Had he kept his mitts off, the crash would have been felt for maybe 6 months and we would have been recovered. The previous market crash... what was it.... 1920... don't recall offhand at the moment... Harding was urged almost to the point of violence to interfere. He steadfastly refuses, earning him the wrath of the money trust, but that crash, every bit as bad as that of '29, was fully recovered from in a few months. FDR was the penultimate American fascist.

As the king's business will always be deemed official, thus being one that he can mind, the little prostitute's business will always be one that is deemed illegal. Therefore, she has no business to mind. If I decide to forfeit my business to keep out of her business, that is my choice. In other words, we don't have to do anything to avoid being deadbeats. The true deadbeat is the corporate dad. He is the one with many wives and lots of children. He works hard at creating inequity. He is the one the courts have to just shrug their shoulders at. What can they do with a man who has so many children? Still, in the back of their minds, the courts have to marvel at his business. Wow! What a man!

[Galileo Galilei]

If it's false that Lincoln turned a voluntary union into an union kept by force, why the South was forced to stay as part of the union?

Not true. The South have re-seceded if they wanted to.

[Galileo Galilei]

Do you know what assuming makes you? I don't like Wilson. He is the second worst President. I also oppose slavery. That's why I oppose Lincoln's use of enslaved soldiers (drafted soldiers) to fight the war. If you are going to fight slavery, you shouldn't do it with a slave army, i.e., through conscription. I of course approve of all efforts people were making to free slaves that don't involve the enslaving of others through conscription.

Most of the soldiers in the Civl war volunteered. Lincon did not change the Constitution, he just violated it. Wilson was worse because he supported the change in the Constitution.

[low preference guy]

Most of the soldiers in the Civl war volunteered.

Of all the buildings McVeigh visited, he didn't bomb most of them.

[-C-]

If it's false that Lincoln turned a voluntary union into an union kept by force, why the South was forced to stay as part of the union?

Is it false that the Confederacy was backed by, and capitulating with the same Empire we declared Independence from, and were at war with not even 30 years prior to the Civil war? They were forced to stay a part of the Union b/c Lincoln won a war which was really against the British Empire and the United States remained Soveriegn and not subject to British Control, up unto the point of the assassination of President William McKinley, which was also at the hand of London.

I think you're a British Imperial Sympathizer that subscribes to the Imperial "Free Trade/Market" Policies of Adam Smith of London School of Economics, contrary to the American System.

[RM918]

Of course they voted FDR the top. In the American Mythos, he went to Mount Berlin with his buddies Churchill and Stalin to slay the evil Lord Hitler, bringing peace to the land forever after.

It may not be very true or so glorious, but it makes a good story and it puffs up everyone's egos, so it may as well be the truth.

[Austrian Econ Disciple]

I would rather have had Hitler in the world than Stalin if given the only options between the two. Stalin was far worse than Hitler. So, that mythos doesn't even make sense if we give to them that. Communists never acknowledge that Stalin is the worlds biggest mass murderer ever.

[-C-]

Of course they voted FDR the top. In the American Mythos, he went to Mount Berlin with his buddies Churchill and Stalin to slay the evil Lord Hitler, bringing peace to the land forever after.

It may not be very true or so glorious, but it makes a good story and it puffs up everyone's egos, so it may as well be the truth.

LOL @ the idea of FDR and Churchill being "buddies"

[low preference guy]

I think you're a British Imperial Sympathizer that subscribes to the Imperial "Free Trade/Market" Policies of Adam Smith of London School of Economics, contrary to the American System.

I think you like guessing what others believe having no conclusive evidence, and also that you reached an incorrect conclusion when you guessed my beliefs.

[osan]

As the king's business will always be deemed official, thus being one that he can mind, the little prostitute's business will always be one that is deemed illegal.

As if to imply the archetypal false dichotomy. If you have a point to make, at least be clear about it.


In other words, we don't have to do anything to avoid being deadbeats. The true deadbeat is the corporate dad. He is the one with many wives and lots of children. He works hard at creating inequity. He is the one the courts have to just shrug their shoulders at. What can they do with a man who has so many children? Still, in the back of their minds, the courts have to marvel at his business. Wow! What a man!What does any of this have to do with the topic at hand? If you're trying to be oblique you have, perhaps, succeeded beyond your wildest expectations because if I didn't know better, I would think you were very stoned on acid.

So once again, if you have a point to make, how about some plain English, because what you posted is not even good as gibberish, no offense.

[Galileo Galilei]

Of all the buildings McVeigh visited, he didn't bomb most of them.

McVeigh didn't do it. Bill Clinton had it done by the FBI. It was a false-flag orchestrated event.

[klamath]

If an evil leader is elected and is just doing the will of the people, why lay all the blame with the evil leader? Are not the evil people equally, if not more, at fault?

Regarding Hitler, he did a lot of bad stuff that the voters approved of. Of course Hitler went far beyond what the people wanted or expected.

But Andrew Jackson didnt do shit that the people didn't want. American citizens in the 1830s didn't like Indians. They wanted the Indians out of Georgia.

Modern Jackson bashing is just more liberal BS that is trotted out by people who want a central bank.

The trail of tears has to be one of the worse abuses of the consitution up to that time. This has to be one of the worse arguments for a president there is. If the people supported it it isn't the presidents fault? FDR then bears no blame because he was elected by some of the highest majorities of any presidents. The people wanted it.

[Austrian Econ Disciple]

The trail of tears has to be one of the worse abuses of the consitution up to that time. This has to be one of the worse arguments for a president there is. If the people supported it it isn't the presidents fault? FDR then bears no blame because he was elected by some of the highest majorities of any presidents. Some people wanted it.

ftfy.

[Galileo Galilei]

The trail of tears has to be one of the worse abuses of the consitution up to that time. This has to be one of the worse arguments for a president there is. If the people supported it it isn't the presidents fault? FDR then bears no blame because he was elected by some of the highest majorities of any presidents. The people wanted it.

No, the trail of tears was about states rights. The Cherokee tried to get big government man John Marshall to intrude upon the sovereign right of Georgia to get rid of her enemies. If you are upset with the trail of tears, then blame the state of Georgia, not Jackson.

FDR wasn't about state rights. He also had Huey Long murdered in 1935 by a "lone nut" to ensure re-election. Jackson, on the other hand, was a victim of a "lone nut".

[klamath]

No, the trail of tears was about states rights. The Cherokee tried to get big government man John Marshall to intrude upon the sovereign right of Georgia to get rid of her enemies. If you are upset with the trail of tears, then blame the state of Georgia, not Jackson.

FDR wasn't about state rights. He also had Huey Long murdered in 1935 by a "lone nut" to ensure re-election. Jackson, on the other hand, was a victim of a "lone nut".
Actually I am getting really sick of hearing how states rights should trump individual rights.
Maybe you should also research what Jackson was going to do when SC threatened to secede. He threatened them with the invasion of the federal army. If it was a states rights issue why did he use the federal army to force the indians into another state?

[Galileo Galilei]

Actually I am getting really sick of hearing how states rights should trump individual rights.
Maybe you should also research what Jackson was going to do when SC threatened to secede. He threatened them with the invasion of the federal army. If it was a states rights issue why did he use the federal army to force the indians into another state?

If South Carolina secedes, then it is none of their business what Jackson does in regards to the US Constitution.

[klamath]

If South Carolina secedes, then it is none of their business what Jackson does in regards to the US Constitution.
That's not what Jackson thought and without a doubt he would have forced SC back into the union had they tried to secede.

[Austrian Econ Disciple]

Why do people amuse the troll? Have we learned nothing (and yes, I include myself in this), with this poster? I have tried my patience.

[Galileo Galilei]

That's not what Jackson thought and without a doubt he would have forced SC back into the union had they tried to secede.

Jackson was not a citizen of South Carolina. What you say makes absolutely no sense.

[Stop Making Cents]

The real question is whether obama will be glorified like fdr for instituting communism during the coming depression.

[Galileo Galilei]

Why do people amuse the troll? Have we learned nothing (and yes, I include myself in this), with this poster? I have tried my patience.

South Carolina used nullification in 1830 because of a tariff rate. A high tariff rate in not unconstitutional. And this was in a time with no income tax! Using nullification for a tariff rate makes a joke of nullification. That's why even James Madison, an advocate of nullification, came out against South Carolina in 1830. No wonder people today have trouble getting off the ground when trying to use nullification for the war of drugs, war on terror, and other tyrannical outrages. I am not a troll. I am a constitutional scholar.

[low preference guy]

South Carolina used nullification in 1830 because of a tariff rate. A high tariff rate in not unconstitutional. And this was in a time.

The taxes under King George were close to nothing. So according to your reasoning, protesting about them in the Declaration of Independence makes the declaration and the Revolution a joke.


I am a constitutional scholar

HAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!



I am not a troll

I do agree that we shouldn't call RP supporters troll. If we relax those standards, I'd call Austrian Econ Disciple a troll, as he often says false things, like that there is a myth that Reagan was a Nozickian.

[Aratus]

nominal taxes during an economic downturn can be resented...

[Galileo Galilei]

The taxes under King George were close to nothing. So according to your reasoning, protesting about them in the Declaration of Independence makes the declaration and the Revolution a joke.



South Carolina had representation. The 13 colonies did not.

[Aratus]

Is it false that the Confederacy was backed by, and capitulating with the same Empire we declared Independence from, and were at war with not even 30 years prior to the Civil war? They were forced to stay a part of the Union b/c Lincoln won a war which was really against the British Empire and the United States remained Soveriegn and not subject to British Control, up unto the point of the assassination of President William McKinley, which was also at the hand of London.

I think you're a British Imperial Sympathizer that subscribes to the Imperial "Free Trade/Market" Policies of Adam Smith of London School of Economics, contrary to the American System.

the 25 year old lone wolf assassin had stalked emma goldman
before he fixated on the sitting president...

[low preference guy]

South Carolina had representation. The 13 colonies did not.

So what? Stop requiring me to pay income taxes and lower my total tax burden to less than 5%... and I'll happily renounce my right to vote.

[Galileo Galilei]

So what? Stop requiring me to pay income taxes and lower my total tax burden to less than 5%... and I'll happily renounce my right to vote.

Did you forget the context of this sideshow? You said we seceded for the British Empire despite taxes that weren't all that high. So then you said that means South Carolina should have nullified the tariff in 1830.

But I said for the tariff in 1830, South Carolina had representation. That means South Carolina agreed to the deal. The American colonies in the Revoltution did not agree to the deal.

[Austrian Econ Disciple]

Did you forget the context of this sideshow? You said we seceded for the British Empire despite taxes that weren't all that high. So then you said that means South Carolina should have nullified the tariff in 1830.

But I said for the tariff in 1830, South Carolina had representation. That means South Carolina agreed to the deal. The American colonies in the Revoltution did not agree to the deal.

Wrong. How many people that signed the ratification were even still alive in South Carolina in the 1830s? I'd wager not too many. Obviously in 1830 South Carolina did not agree to that rate of tariff on those goods enumerated.

Bah I replied to the troll! Time to put him on ignore so I don't solly myself :p

[Galileo Galilei]

Wrong. How many people that signed the ratification were even still alive in South Carolina in the 1830s? I'd wager not too many. Obviously in 1830 South Carolina did not agree to that rate of tariff on those goods enumerated.

Bah I replied to the troll! Time to put him on ignore so I don't solly myself :p

Err, now you abandon states rights? Let me get this straight; states rights are really bad when Georgia kills the Cherokee, but its just fine and dandy for states to enslave 4 million black people?

[Uncle Emanuel Watkins]

As if to imply the archetypal false dichotomy. If you have a point to make, at least be clear about it.

What does any of this have to do with the topic at hand? If you're trying to be oblique you have, perhaps, succeeded beyond your wildest expectations because if I didn't know better, I would think you were very stoned on acid.

So once again, if you have a point to make, how about some plain English, because what you posted is not even good as gibberish, no offense.

Never converse with the cruel world on matters pertaining to the cruel world. In the meantime, I'm going to mind my own business.

[osan]

As the king's business will always be deemed official, thus being one that he can mind, the little prostitute's business will always be one that is deemed illegal. Therefore, she has no business to mind. If I decide to forfeit my business to keep out of her business, that is my choice. In other words, we don't have to do anything to avoid being deadbeats. The true deadbeat is the corporate dad. He is the one with many wives and lots of children. He works hard at creating inequity. He is the one the courts have to just shrug their shoulders at. What can they do with a man who has so many children? Still, in the back of their minds, the courts have to marvel at his business. Wow! What a man!

If you have a point to make, try English. This is not even good gibberish.

[Uncle Emanuel Watkins]

If you have a point to make, try English. This is not even good gibberish.

As the king has a legitimate official business to mind, the little trespassng prostitute has an illegitimate one. Therefore, the prostitute isn't allowed to mind her own business. As the king of a dinner table, I choose to restrict my business to enhance hers. It it is the Truth that set us free and that it is also true this nation was established on that Truth, then this means both the king and the prostitute were created equal having been born with the same exact business agenda.

[JeNNiF00F00]

>:)

[Dr.3D]

Dood what ARE you smoking?

That or some kind of veiled message or secret code.

[cindy25]

dieing in office has something to do with it. Lincoln (1c) FDR (!0c) JFK (50c) all died in office. Harding was widely popular after he died in office.

[Uncle Emanuel Watkins]

Dood what ARE you smoking?

Look, by Locke's "natural law," I was born receiving an equal share of property. If I decide to forfeit that natural right to help someone else establish their business, with this person being the little prostitute trespassing on the street, then that is my choice. This means I am helping someone by not doing something. If you don't understand, then study more.

[Uncle Emanuel Watkins]

That or some kind of veiled message or secret code.

Or perhaps I took better notes in class?

[Legend1104]

Is it false that the Confederacy was backed by, and capitulating with the same Empire we declared Independence from, and were at war with not even 30 years prior to the Civil war? They were forced to stay a part of the Union b/c Lincoln won a war which was really against the British Empire and the United States remained Soveriegn and not subject to British Control, up unto the point of the assassination of President William McKinley, which was also at the hand of London.

I think you're a British Imperial Sympathizer that subscribes to the Imperial "Free Trade/Market" Policies of Adam Smith of London School of Economics, contrary to the American System.

I would definitely support Adam smith's ideas over the amercian system. Smith's ideas are the grand parent of the austrian school later to come. The American systme was a horribly unconstitutional system of raping the south at the expense of businesses in the north.

[Uncle Emanuel Watkins]

I would definitely support Adam smith's ideas over the amercian system. Smith's ideas are the grand parent of the austrian school later to come. The American systme was a horribly unconstitutional system of raping the south at the expense of businesses in the north.

When considering the economy of the people, one must also consider the sovereignty of tyranny. As the people are at a disadvantage needing to be frugal in their desperate affairs, tyranny will always have nice clothing to wear, rich food to eat, as well as means available to transport them around from place to place.

[Austrian Econ Disciple]

I would definitely support Adam smith's ideas over the amercian system. Smith's ideas are the grand parent of the austrian school later to come. The American systme was a horribly unconstitutional system of raping the south at the expense of businesses in the north.

Eh....Adam Smith while advancing a few good ideas (almost mostly policy rather than analytical/praxeological), held a lot of horrible ideas. There were much more prominent economists at the time, and Jefferson himself didn't take too kindly to Smith. The first Proto-Austrians were the Spanish Theologians known as the School of Salamanca in the 1500 and 1600s.

And while I would also endorse Adam Smiths ideas over our current system, its more akin to choosing if you want to be shot in the heart, or in the leg. I'd prefer not to be shot at all.

If you want to praise some economists during his time A.J. Turgot, and J.B. Say are the two best, and Cantillon from a little before. They were Laissez-Fairests, not Smith :p

[Dr.3D]

Or perhaps I took better notes in class?

Sure, but which class? Doesn't sound like anything to do with any U.S. President being better than another. I kind of thought that was what this thread was about.

[osan]

Dood what ARE you smoking?
Whatever it is, he's not sharing.

[osan]

Look, by Locke's "natural law," I was born receiving an equal share of property.

No. You were born with equal claim to stroke out and make your own fortunes as your abilities and diligence allow.

The rest of your post is poorly written and not readily parsable. You need to work on your writing skills. A lot.

[Galileo Galilei]

Eh....Adam Smith while advancing a few good ideas (almost mostly policy rather than analytical/praxeological), held a lot of horrible ideas. There were much more prominent economists at the time, and Jefferson himself didn't take too kindly to Smith. The first Proto-Austrians were the Spanish Theologians known as the School of Salamanca in the 1500 and 1600s.

And while I would also endorse Adam Smiths ideas over our current system, its more akin to choosing if you want to be shot in the heart, or in the leg. I'd prefer not to be shot at all.

If you want to praise some economists during his time A.J. Turgot, and J.B. Say are the two best, and Cantillon from a little before. They were Laissez-Fairests, not Smith :p

Ya, those Spanish were really into economic liberty. Galileo couldn't even sell his books there.

[Uncle Emanuel Watkins]

No. You were born with equal claim to stroke out and make your own fortunes as your abilities and diligence allow.

The rest of your post is poorly written and not readily parsable. You need to work on your writing skills. A lot.

You don't seem to understand that there is a difference between natural rights and civil rights. Until you do, we can't have a discussion on which president is great or not. Natural law exists in deep theory. It exists in a reality beyond the observable evidence that we can see directly with our senses. The Truth always exists on the other side of the wall, so to speak. Yet, our Founding Fathers declared that certain truths are self evident (clearly evidenced). In other words, this is something bipartisan that can't be refuted by the king's wizards and philosophers as such a conclusion does not need to be backed by proof, by referencing or by the opinions of experts. The instrument used to perceive these unalienable truths (Truth) is the collective human soul, conscience, or, as many romantics like to refer to it, heart.

[Uncle Emanuel Watkins]

Sure, but which class? Doesn't sound like anything to do with any U.S. President being better than another. I kind of thought that was what this thread was about.

Your opinion is based on material. In other words, the only thing keeping you here as an American is material gain. If it doesn't have a dollar sign on it, then it is nonsense. Take the profit away and, like many, you will just move off to Canada.

[Uncle Emanuel Watkins]

Whatever it is, he's not sharing.

Noninformative, ad hominem, and self grandizing.

[Dr.3D]

Your opinion is based on material. In other words, the only thing keeping you here as an American is material gain. If it doesn't have a dollar sign on it, then it is nonsense. Take the profit away and, like many, you will just move off to Canada.

I'm not making any profit nor is what you are talking about pertain the the subject of this thread.

You have failed.

[Uncle Emanuel Watkins]

I'm not making any profit nor is what you are talking about pertain the the subject of this thread.

You have failed.

These kinds of arguments go on and on and they are one of the main reasons people view Ron Paul and the people who support him as extremist zealots. There is no response to this thread because of the limitations of the maturity of those involved in the discussion.

[YumYum]

The greatest president we ever had was Chester A. Arthur.

[Galileo Galilei]

The greatest president we ever had was Chester A. Arthur.

Here! here!

:)

[Brett]

Two years ago in my US History Class in high school I was taught that FDR slowed the depression with his spending and eventually cured it with the war. Of course my age group supports him.