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axiomata
07-04-2010, 12:02 AM
Declaration of Independence


When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the Powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shown, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.

He has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.

He has forbidden his Governors to pass Laws of immediate and pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till his Assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them.

He has refused to pass other Laws for the accommodation of large districts of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of Representation in the Legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only.

He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of their Public Records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures.

He has dissolved Representative Houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly firmness his invasions on the rights of the people.

He has refused for a long time, after such dissolutions, to cause others to be elected; whereby the Legislative Powers, incapable of Annihilation, have returned to the People at large for their exercise; the State remaining in the mean time exposed to all the dangers of invasion from without, and convulsions within.

He has endeavoured to prevent the population of these States; for that purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migration hither, and raising the conditions of new Appropriations of Lands.

He has obstructed the Administration of Justice, by refusing his Assent to Laws for establishing Judiciary Powers.

He has made Judges dependent on his Will alone, for the tenure of their offices, and the amount and payment of their salaries.

He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harrass our People, and eat out their substance.

He has kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies without the Consent of our legislature.

He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil Power.

He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution, and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation:

For quartering large bodies of armed troops among us:

For protecting them, by a mock Trial, from Punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:

For cutting off our Trade with all parts of the world:

For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:

For depriving us in many cases, of the benefits of Trial by Jury:

For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended offences:

For abolishing the free System of English Laws in a neighbouring Province, establishing therein an Arbitrary government, and enlarging its Boundaries so as to render it at once an example and fit instrument for introducing the same absolute rule into these Colonies:

For taking away our Charters, abolishing our most valuable Laws, and altering fundamentally the Forms of our Governments:

For suspending our own Legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with Power to legislate for us in all cases whatsoever.

He has abdicated Government here, by declaring us out of his Protection and waging War against us.

He has plundered our seas, ravaged our Coasts, burnt our towns, and destroyed the Lives of our people.

He is at this time transporting large Armies of foreign Mercenaries to complete the works of death, desolation and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty & perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy the Head of a civilized nation.

He has constrained our fellow Citizens taken Captive on the high Seas to bear Arms against their Country, to become the executioners of their friends and Brethren, or to fall themselves by their Hands.

He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavoured to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages, whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions.

In every stage of these Oppressions We have Petitioned for Redress in the most humble terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated injury. A Prince, whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free People.

Nor have We been wanting in attention to our British brethren. We have warned them from time to time of attempts by their legislature to extend an unwarrantable jurisdiction over us. We have reminded them of the circumstances of our emigration and settlement here. We have appealed to their native justice and magnanimity, and we have conjured them by the ties of our common kindred to disavow these usurpations, which would inevitably interrupt our connections and correspondence. They too have been deaf to the voice of justice and of consanguinity. We must, therefore, acquiesce in the necessity, which denounces our Separation, and hold them, as we hold the rest of mankind, Enemies in War, in Peace Friends.

We, therefore, the Representatives of the United States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name, and by Authority of the good people of these Colonies, solemnly publish and de clare, That these United Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States; that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do. And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the Protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.

John Hancock

New Hampshire
Josiah Bartlett’
Win. Whipple
Matthew Thornton

Rhode Island
Stop. Hopkins
William Ellery

Connecticut
Roger Sherman
Sam’el Huntington
Win. Williams
Oliver Wolcott

New York
Win. Floyd
Phil. Livingston
Frans. Lewis
Lewis Morris

New Jersey
Richd. Stockton
Jno. Witherspoon
Fras. Hopkinson
John Hart
Abra. Clark Pennsylvania
Robt. Morris
Benjamin Rush
Benj. Franklin
John Morton
Geo. Clymer
Jas. Smith
Geo. Taylor
James Wilson
Geo. Ross

Massachusetts Bay
Saml. Adams
John Adams
Robt. Treat Paine
Elbridge Gerry

Delaware
Caesar Rodney
Geo. Road
Tho. M’Kean

Maryland
Samuel Chase
Wm. Paca
Thos. Stone
Charles Carroll of Carrollton Virginia
George Wythe
Richard Henry Lee
Th. Jefferson
Benj. Harrison
Ths. Nelson, Jr.
Francis Lightfoot Lee
Carter Braxton

North Carolina
Wm. Hooper
Joseph Hewes
John Penn

South Carolina
Edward Rutledge
Thos. Heyward, Junr.
Thomas Lynch, Junr.
Arthur Middleton

Georgia
Button Gwinnett
Lyman Hall
Geo. Walton

tremendoustie
07-04-2010, 12:05 AM
One of the greatest liberty documents of all time.

DamianTV
07-04-2010, 04:56 AM
Bump for Independence Day!

Does anyone question "Independence from What" anymore? Independence from the Tyrrany of King George III and the Banks of his time!

catdd
07-04-2010, 07:21 AM
+1776

tropicangela
07-04-2010, 09:40 AM
YouTube - John Adams - Declaration of Independence (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nrvpZxMfKaU)

catdd
07-04-2010, 09:44 AM
Toady I celebrate my 1st and 2nd amendment freedom.

Anti Federalist
07-04-2010, 10:35 AM
That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shown, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2680/4406561269_c15277d9f6_o.gif

puppetmaster
07-04-2010, 10:43 AM
Declaration of Independence


we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.




I like this part!

Austrian Econ Disciple
07-04-2010, 10:46 AM
I like this part!

Oh no! Where are the Randiites! It says "mutually". :D

puppetmaster
07-04-2010, 10:53 AM
That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government,


this part is good....too

puppetmaster
07-04-2010, 11:02 AM
Lets see how many of these are going on today!!
looks to be most...? go figure! We just need to keep organizing.....strength in numbers


**He has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.

**He has forbidden his Governors to pass Laws of immediate and pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till his Assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them.

He has refused to pass other Laws for the accommodation of large districts of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of Representation in the Legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only.

He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of their Public Records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures.

He has dissolved Representative Houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly firmness his invasions on the rights of the people.

He has refused for a long time, after such dissolutions, to cause others to be elected; whereby the Legislative Powers, incapable of Annihilation, have returned to the People at large for their exercise; the State remaining in the mean time exposed to all the dangers of invasion from without, and convulsions within.

He has endeavoured to prevent the population of these States; for that purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migration hither, and raising the conditions of new Appropriations of Lands.

**He has obstructed the Administration of Justice, by refusing his Assent to Laws for establishing Judiciary Powers.

He has made Judges dependent on his Will alone, for the tenure of their offices, and the amount and payment of their salaries.

***He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harrass our People, and eat out their substance.

He has kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies without the Consent of our legislature.

He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil Power.

He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution, and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation:

For quartering large bodies of armed troops among us:

For protecting them, by a mock Trial, from Punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:

For cutting off our Trade with all parts of the world:

For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:

For depriving us in many cases, of the benefits of Trial by Jury:

For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended offences:

For abolishing the free System of English Laws in a neighbouring Province, establishing therein an Arbitrary government, and enlarging its Boundaries so as to render it at once an example and fit instrument for introducing the same absolute rule into these Colonies:

For taking away our Charters, abolishing our most valuable Laws, and altering fundamentally the Forms of our Governments:

For suspending our own Legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with Power to legislate for us in all cases whatsoever.

He has abdicated Government here, by declaring us out of his Protection and waging War against us.

He has plundered our seas, ravaged our Coasts, burnt our towns, and destroyed the Lives of our people.

He is at this time transporting large Armies of foreign Mercenaries to complete the works of death, desolation and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty & perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy the Head of a civilized nation.

He has constrained our fellow Citizens taken Captive on the high Seas to bear Arms against their Country, to become the executioners of their friends and Brethren, or to fall themselves by their Hands.

He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavoured to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages, whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions.

In every stage of these Oppressions We have Petitioned for Redress in the most humble terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated injury. A Prince, whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free People.

Fredom101
07-04-2010, 11:15 AM
And how's this document working to uphold our freedoms so far?

michaelwise
07-04-2010, 11:18 AM
I'm boycotting the 4th till I get my government back.

Anti Federalist
07-04-2010, 11:24 AM
And how's this document working to uphold our freedoms so far?

Lousy, because of human nature.


and accordingly all experience hath shown, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed

Fredom101
07-04-2010, 11:32 AM
Lousy, because of human nature.

Right, so do you think "restoring the constitution" is at all meaningful or worth discussing?

tremendoustie
07-04-2010, 11:34 AM
Right, so do you think "restoring the constitution" is at all meaningful or worth discussing?

Dude, this is about the DOI, not the constitution. Don't be a party pooper.

Besides, anyone should be able to recognize that getting back to the constitution would be a huge step in the right direction.

Travlyr
07-04-2010, 11:39 AM
Right, so do you think "restoring the constitution" is at all meaningful or worth discussing?

Restoring the constitution discussion is meaningful to me, but not on this thread. ;)
This is a great day to reflect on our liberties! "Shoot em up" "Blow em up"... Fun with family and friends. :D

Fredom101
07-04-2010, 11:40 AM
Dude, this is about the DOI, not the constitution. Don't be a party pooper.

Besides, anyone should be able to recognize that getting back to the constitution would be a huge step in the right direction.

I know it's about the DOI, but I was referring to the rally cry of "restoring the constitution". But the DOI is clearly not working either. We can never "get back" to any of these documents, because it has already been tried and failed. Any new piece of paper that someone comes up with will also be trampled all over by so-called "lawmakers" so fast that your head will spin.

I'm not being a party pooper just calling reality out. :cool:

NiceGoing
07-04-2010, 12:01 PM
Dude, this is about the DOI, not the constitution. Don't be a party pooper.

Besides, anyone should be able to recognize that getting back to the constitution would be a huge step in the right direction.

+1

puppetmaster
07-04-2010, 12:10 PM
Happy Overthrow-the-Government Day

Austrian Econ Disciple
07-04-2010, 12:14 PM
Happy Overthrow-the-Government Day

Technically, they didn't overthrow the government, they seceeded from it, and then the Government came and attacked them. They defended themselves successfully, then went and installed the system they just defeated. Damn Federalists :mad:, but yes yes happy DoI day.

furface
07-04-2010, 12:17 PM
The DOI like the Constitution doesn't mean anything any more. It's just used and abused for corrupt political means. They're both stickers that politicians use to cover up their bullshit.

Here's what I found on whitehouse.gov:

"This Independence Day, the First Lady has a special message for all Americans about supporting military families."

Obama is using both 7/4 and "military families" as a sticker to cover up his bullshit policies. That's what our cultural institutions are nowadays, just worthless symbols that politicians use to help them steal from The People.

Go ahead and try to follow what the DOI is saying. You'll get 30 years in a federal prison.

Maybe speaking the ugly truth load and hard will change things. I don't even think it's possible to speak that nasty truth on RPF, though. Most of the really true stuff gets stuck in "hot topics" or something like that here.

Austrian Econ Disciple
07-04-2010, 12:20 PM
The DOI like the Constitution doesn't mean anything any more. It's just used and abused for corrupt political means. They're both stickers that politicians use to cover up their bullshit.

Here's what I found on whitehouse.gov:

"This Independence Day, the First Lady has a special message for all Americans about supporting military families."

Obama is using both 7/4 and "military families" as a sticker to cover up his bullshit policies. That's what our cultural institutions are nowadays, just worthless symbols that politicians use to help them steal from The People.

Go ahead and try to follow what the DOI is saying. You'll get 30 years in a federal prison.

Maybe speaking the ugly truth load and hard will change things. I don't even think it's possible to speak that nasty truth on RPF, though. Most of the really true stuff gets stuck in "hot topics" or something like that here.

The DoI established no Government, it merely enumerated the natural rights of all humans. For that reason the DoI is the best political document to have been successfully defended. They then went and mucked the whole shit up. Should be an indication to not institute coercive authority in any area.

tremendoustie
07-04-2010, 12:24 PM
I prefer "happy secession day". I'm not interested in overthrowing anything.

furface
07-04-2010, 12:33 PM
Should be an indication to not institute coercive authority in any area.

Should be, but it isn't. Ideas don't mean jack squat anymore. George Orwell said in "1984" that "sanity isn't statistical." Well, I'll take that one step farther. INSANITY is in fact statistical. Democracies invariably end up stealing from minorities, not just racial or ethnic ones, but behavioral ones like professional classes and such. This revolution will NOT be democratic. I see no possible way it can be. It will have to be the productive classes rising up and demanding their rights.

Anti Federalist
07-04-2010, 02:30 PM
I know it's about the DOI, but I was referring to the rally cry of "restoring the constitution". But the DOI is clearly not working either. We can never "get back" to any of these documents, because it has already been tried and failed. Any new piece of paper that someone comes up with will also be trampled all over by so-called "lawmakers" so fast that your head will spin.

I'm not being a party pooper just calling reality out. :cool:

And that is precisely why Thomas Jefferson said that the "tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants alike. It is it's natural manure".

That, sadly, is the state of human nature, old systems, no matter how good at first, atrophy and weaken and deform over time.

That is why a little revolution, now and again, is a good thing, a needed thing, a vital and necessary thing.

We're long overdue.

The next revolution, if done right, will expand on the earth shattering concepts that the first one did.

But even if it didn't, consider for a moment, just how radical that document is.

Done in the right place and the right time, just reading that document could land you in jail right now. That signals to me that it is still just as relevant, just as bold and just as big a threat to the established power structures and ruling class as it was in 1776.

And by god that's good enough for me.

Fredom101
07-04-2010, 02:40 PM
And that is precisely why Thomas Jefferson said that the "tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants alike. It is it's natural manure".

That, sadly, is the state of human nature, old systems, no matter how good at first, atrophy and weaken and deform over time.

That is why a little revolution, now and again, is a good thing, a needed thing, a vital and necessary thing.

We're long overdue.

The next revolution, if done right, will expand on the earth shattering concepts that the first one did.

But even if it didn't, consider for a moment, just how radical that document is.

Done in the right place and the right time, just reading that document could land you in jail right now. That signals to me that it is still just as relevant, just as bold and just as big a threat to the established power structures and ruling class as it was in 1776.

And by god that's good enough for me.

No way.
A violent revolution will never solve our problems.

We need, like Ron Paul says, a revolution of ideas.
We need good ideas (i.e. individualism, austrian economics) to replace bad ones (collectivism, keyensianism).

A bloody revolution will simply give us another tyrannical government, and a lot of innocent people will die along the way. NOT worth it.

tremendoustie
07-04-2010, 02:46 PM
No way.
A violent revolution will never solve our problems.

We need, like Ron Paul says, a revolution of ideas.
We need good ideas (i.e. individualism, austrian economics) to replace bad ones (collectivism, keyensianism).

A bloody revolution will simply give us another tyrannical government, and a lot of innocent people will die along the way. NOT worth it.

+1000. Peaceful evolution, not violent revolution.

Anti Federalist
07-04-2010, 02:47 PM
No way.
A violent revolution will never solve our problems.

We need, like Ron Paul says, a revolution of ideas.
We need good ideas (i.e. individualism, austrian economics) to replace bad ones (collectivism, keyensianism).

A bloody revolution will simply give us another tyrannical government, and a lot of innocent people will die along the way. NOT worth it.

Then you're wishing for what will never be and what has never been.

Our great great grandchildren will be having these same circle jerk arguments, at least until the implanted monitoring chips report them.

Anti Federalist
07-04-2010, 02:48 PM
+1000. Peaceful evolution, not violent revolution.

The powers that be already have that road mapped.

They'll cut you off at the pass for 1000 years.

tremendoustie
07-04-2010, 02:48 PM
Then you're wishing for what will never be and what has never been.

Our great great grandchildren will be having these same circle jerk arguments, at least until the implanted monitioring chips report them.

Look at what MLK, Rosa Parks, Gandhi, abolitionists, etc. did. Significant change in society does not imply violence. We should be using nullification and civil disobedience, far more than we are.

Austrian Econ Disciple
07-04-2010, 02:50 PM
Then you're wishing for what will never be and what has never been.

Our great great grandchildren will be having these same circle jerk arguments, at least until the implanted monitoring chips report them.

To be fair it has been done before, and not too long ago at that -- Rose Revolution in Georgia & Velvet Revolution in Czechoslovakia.

Anti Federalist
07-04-2010, 02:51 PM
Look at what MLK, Rosa Parks, Gandhi, abolitionists, etc. did. Significant change in society does not imply violence. We should be using nullification and civil disobedience, far more than we are.

What significant change did any of these people really achieve?

What has really changed about the power structure?

I could say the IRA did the same things by violent means in Ireland as well, by forcing the British to give ground.

TT, I love you brother, but we'll just never see eye to eye on this.

There comes a time when talking is done.

Pauls' Revere
07-04-2010, 02:54 PM
O! say can you see by the dawn's early light,
What so proudly we hailed at the twilight's last gleaming,
Whose broad stripes and bright stars through the perilous fight,
O'er the ramparts we watched, were so gallantly streaming.
And the rockets' red glare, the bombs bursting in air,
Gave proof through the night that our flag was still there;
O! say does that star-spangled banner yet wave,
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave?

On the shore, dimly seen through the mists of the deep,
Where the foe's haughty host in dread silence reposes,
What is that which the breeze, o'er the towering steep,
As it fitfully blows, half conceals, half discloses?
Now it catches the gleam of the morning's first beam,
In full glory reflected now shines in the stream:
'Tis the star-spangled banner, O! long may it wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave.

And where is that band who so vauntingly swore
That the havoc of war and the battle's confusion,
A home and a country should leave us no more!
Their blood has washed out their foul footsteps' pollution.
No refuge could save the hireling and slave
From the terror of flight, or the gloom of the grave:
And the star-spangled banner in triumph doth wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave.

O! thus be it ever, when freemen shall stand
Between their loved home and the war's desolation!
Blest with victory and peace, may the heav'n rescued land
Praise the Power that hath made and preserved us a nation.
Then conquer we must, when our cause it is just,
And this be our motto: "In God is our trust."
And the star-spangled banner in triumph shall wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave![12]

Austrian Econ Disciple
07-04-2010, 02:57 PM
What significant change did any of these people really achieve?

What has really changed about the power structure?

I could say the IRA did the same things by violent means in Ireland as well, by forcing the British to give ground.

TT, I love you brother, but we'll just never see eye to eye on this.

There comes a time when talking is done.

AF, I would urge you to take a look at this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Velvet_Revolution

Deborah K
07-04-2010, 03:19 PM
Happy 4th of July America!

tremendoustie
07-04-2010, 03:23 PM
What significant change did any of these people really achieve?

What has really changed about the power structure?


Well, the Brits were kicked out of India, and Jim crow was abolished. I'd say their efforts were successful.



I could say the IRA did the same things by violent means in Ireland as well, by forcing the British to give ground.

I'm not saying violence never changes things, especially if you're talking about a majority in a particular area defending against outside tyranny/attack. It's the way we became independent from Britain, after all.

But, I don't think it's an effective way to gain support for an idea. Peaceful civil disobedience, which demonstrates the evil you are opposing, is far, far more effective. This is what gandhi and MLK did to great effect. Certainly violence should never be anything more than an absolute last resort.



TT, I love you brother, but we'll just never see eye to eye on this.

Love you too man :). Wait until the successes pile up -- maybe you'll be swayed then ;).



There comes a time when talking is done.

I agree. But, violence is far from the only alternative to talking.

JohnEngland
07-04-2010, 04:30 PM
Hmm, to what extent could the War of Independence be considered a Civil War? Afterall, America was a British colony and the people had many of the customs, history and education of their fellow countrymen across the Atlantic.

Which reminds me, I still have to visit Benjamin Franklin's house in London. It's dead in the middle of the city, near Buckingham Palace and Trafalgar Square!

axiomata
07-05-2010, 01:18 AM
Dissapointed nobody commented on my post count. It took a lot of willpower to not post in another thread today.

Anti Federalist
07-05-2010, 01:27 AM
Dissapointed nobody commented on my post count. It took a lot of willpower to not post in another thread today.

Oh wow, too bad...LoL

puppetmaster
07-05-2010, 09:31 AM
I don't know if it was just me, but did anyone else notice an abundance of military shows this year. everywhere I went the were fly byes all day long.....

They hope we will forget the true meaning of Independence Day!

klamath
07-05-2010, 09:41 AM
+1000. Peaceful evolution, not violent revolution.

Add another +1000 to that.

Fredom101
07-05-2010, 10:30 AM
AF- I understand where you're coming from, but why not advocate mass civil disobedience instead of violent revolution?

Theocrat
07-05-2010, 10:35 AM
YouTube - Reading of the Declaration of Independence (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETroXvRFoKY)

Anti Federalist
07-05-2010, 12:52 PM
AF- I understand where you're coming from, but why not advocate mass civil disobedience instead of violent revolution?

I'm all for it and couldn't agree more.

Just keep in mind what the next step must be if mass civil disobedience is met with with mass system violence against the people.

Or, and I'm being serious, not snarky, do we just go home and accept the new regime when that happens?

The system is already stretching the bounds and killing us in random incidents occurring more and more frequently.

puppetmaster
07-05-2010, 01:01 PM
I'm all for it and couldn't agree more.

Just keep in mind what the next step must be if mass civil disobedience is met with with mass system violence against the people.

Or, and I'm being serious, not snarky, do we just go home and accept the new regime when that happens?

The system is already stretching the bounds and killing us in random incidents occurring more and more frequently.

gotta have a plan b.....and like you said, it ain't gonna be pretty!