PDA

View Full Version : How should I respond to this?




Hope
10-14-2007, 02:28 PM
Someone brought up Ron Paul on a different forum, and even though two or three people have said, "Yeah, I think Ron Paul's pretty cool and I'll be voting for him!" it seems like I'm the only one willing to address the statements of those who are critical of Ron Paul. Someone just posted this, and I'm not sure if I should even try to argue with him or if I should just let it go.

What do you think? If you think I should respond, what chief counter points should I use? Obviously I'd say that Ron Paul is not an isolationist, but I get the feeling that to this person it's a matter of semantics. With other things, like his interpretation of the Second Amendment, I feel like I can't gain any ground because he is so convinced of his position. Any help here would be great.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is a VERY delicate time in our nation's history and Ron Paul, however traditional he may be and how close he may hew to the letter of the Constitution, doesn't have the political savvy to handle he foreign policy of the most powerful economic and military engine on the planet. We need the U.N., which is certainly a flawed institution, to help us pick up the mess we made in Iraq...it's either them or Iran...anyone? Anyone?

I really appreciate that he wants to bring back pre-WWII conservativism, but let's remember that pre-WWII conservatism is what brought us into Depression and ugly oligarchy (say that 10 times fast) and Democratic values pulled us out, crazy spending and all. Though there will be a time for it, right now Traditional Conservatism is not compatible with our country's values as a collective and will further cripple us as we walk into the future.

I certainly agree with most of his libertarian views, but can we remember why we have the second ammendment?! It was to more easily create militia in times of domestic war and most importantly as leverage against a authoritarian regime using our own military to subjugate American citizens. This is why an assault weapon ban is anathema to the NRA. No one can say it out loud for some reason, but this is why why have the 2nd Ammendment more than anything. Certainly, it's nice to have a gun when you feel threatened by a rapist or a burglar, but it wasn't the original intent for the ammendment.

When it comes down to it, however much America may need Ron Paul from some perspectives, he is absolutely unelectable. He wants to completely disengage from the world and that will leave a vacuum which several world powers will be more than happy to fill, will continue to increase the exponential increase of the disparity between the haves and have nots. We need to elect a Democrat to find our place in the world again. Why? Even if you don't like the Dems, they are MUCH better with foreign policy and fight wars more effectively and HAVE CONTIGENCY PLANS. Not only that, they have historically been willing to weaken the presidency after autocrats or irresponsible leaders have held office. It will present a fresh face to the world, get BILL RICHARDSON in as secretary of state to smooth things over with our allies. WE NEED THE REST OF THE WORLD RIGHT NOW and to get rid off this stupid cowboy crap that is at the core of Bush's presidency! Shoot from the hip and YEEHAH!!! Bullcrap.

It may be a blow to our pride, but our country has been severely wounded by 9/11 and the Iraq war and we need to re-engage in world affairs so we can mold the future of our world, for our nation and all of humanity. We can't afford to have an isolationist worldview now. We got hurt. We made a series of dumb decisions out of fear. We need to apologize to the world by electing the other guy and showing we have humility. And anyone says we don't have to apologize, tell that to the 2-300,00 dead Iraqis, the nearly million wounded and maimed, not to mention the scores of thousands of wounded and killed American Soldiers. We can do a hell of a lot better, but we have to kick out the king and start over with a fresh perspective and cleaner hands.

Hope
10-14-2007, 02:45 PM
bump

bbachtung
10-14-2007, 04:00 PM
Re: political savvy:

From the NYT Magazine article (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/22/magazine/22Paul-t.html?ei=5124&en=22ee37525a9fc4f5&ex=1343016000&partner=permalink&exprod=permalink&pagewanted=all) about RP in July 2007:



Anyone who is elected to Congress three times as a nonincumbent, as Paul has been, is a politician of prodigious gifts.


Re: delicate international issues, also from the NYT Magazine article:



Every Thursday, Paul is the host of a luncheon for a circle of conservative Republicans that he calls the Liberty Caucus. It has become the epicenter of antiwar Republicanism in Washington. One stalwart member is Walter Jones, the North Carolina Republican who during the debate over Iraq suggested renaming French fries “freedom fries” in the House dining room, but who has passed the years since in vocal opposition to the war. Another is John (Jimmy) Duncan of Tennessee, the only Republican besides Paul who voted against the war and remains in the House. Other regulars include Virgil Goode of Virginia, Roscoe Bartlett of Maryland and Scott Garrett of New Jersey. Zach Wamp of Tennessee and Jeff Flake, the Arizonan scourge of pork-barrel spending, visit occasionally. Not all are antiwar, but many of the speakers Paul invites are: the former C.I.A. analyst Michael Scheuer, the intelligence-world journalist James Bamford and such disillusioned United States Army officers as William Odom, Gregory Newbold and Lawrence Wilkerson (Colin Powell’s former chief of staff), among others.


And he is a member (http://www.house.gov/paul/bio.shtml) of the House International Affairs Committee, etc.:



He serves on the House Financial Services Committee, the International Relations committee, and the Joint Economic Committee. On the Financial Services Committee, Rep. Paul serves as the vice-chairman of the Oversight and Investigations subcommittee.


Re: the importance (http://www.ronpaullibrary.org/document.php?id=301) of the 2nd Amendment, he sounds exactly like your friend:



The Second amendment is not about hunting deer or keeping a pistol in your nightstand. It is not about protecting oneself against common criminals. It is about preventing tyranny. The Founders knew that unarmed citizens would never be able to overthrow a tyrannical government as they did. They envisioned government as a servant, not a master, of the American people. The muskets they used against the British Army were the assault rifles of the time. It is practical, rather than alarmist, to understand that unarmed citizens cannot be secure in their freedoms. It’s convenient for gun banners to dismiss this argument by saying “That could never happen here, this is America”- but history shows that only vigilant people can keep government under control. By banning certain weapons today, we may plant the seeds for tyranny to flourish ten, thirty, or fifty years from now.


Send them to the following:

Questions That Won't Be Asked About Iraq (before the war): http://www.ronpaullibrary.org/document.php?id=678

His editorial in the Union-Leader re: non-interventionism: http://unionleader.com/article.aspx?headline=Rep.+Ron+Paul%3a+I+advocate+ the+same+foreign+policy+the+Founding+Fathers+would&articleId=cc287b0f-941c-4b07-88e9-9e992810f700

sunny
10-14-2007, 04:15 PM
this post just burns my butt. whoever wrote is uninformed and using msm jargon and not taken the time to look for himself or herself.

no political savvy? - grrrrrr!
get the un to help with iraq? - grrrrrrrr!
disengage from the world? - grrrrrrrrr!
isolationist world view? - Grrrrrrrr!

i'm glad you have the patience to respond to this crap - i don't!

i'm sorry i did not give you any help with that. i would just write the truth. there were quite a bit of false impressions.
i mentioned some.

Hope
10-14-2007, 05:01 PM
Re: political savvy:

From the NYT Magazine article (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/22/magazine/22Paul-t.html?ei=5124&en=22ee37525a9fc4f5&ex=1343016000&partner=permalink&exprod=permalink&pagewanted=all) about RP in July 2007:



Re: delicate international issues, also from the NYT Magazine article:



And he is a member (http://www.house.gov/paul/bio.shtml) of the House International Affairs Committee, etc.:



Re: the importance (http://www.ronpaullibrary.org/document.php?id=301) of the 2nd Amendment, he sounds exactly like your friend:



Send them to the following:

Questions That Won't Be Asked About Iraq (before the war): http://www.ronpaullibrary.org/document.php?id=678

His editorial in the Union-Leader re: non-interventionism: http://unionleader.com/article.aspx?headline=Rep.+Ron+Paul%3a+I+advocate+ the+same+foreign+policy+the+Founding+Fathers+would&articleId=cc287b0f-941c-4b07-88e9-9e992810f700

Thank you! This helped immensely! :)

Hope
10-14-2007, 05:02 PM
this post just burns my butt. whoever wrote is uninformed and using msm jargon and not taken the time to look for himself or herself.

no political savvy? - grrrrrr!
get the un to help with iraq? - grrrrrrrr!
disengage from the world? - grrrrrrrrr!
isolationist world view? - Grrrrrrrr!

i'm glad you have the patience to respond to this crap - i don't!

i'm sorry i did not give you any help with that. i would just write the truth. there were quite a bit of false impressions.
i mentioned some.

Yeah, it's disturbing that people have such a warped view of Ron Paul's platform. I tried to make my post positive and focus on "Ron Paul actually agrees with you," type stuff. :)

cmc
10-14-2007, 07:46 PM
I actually agree with a few points that the poster makes. I consider myself more pro-Gov't than Paul (not a lot more!) and also more pro-intervention (again, not a lot more!).

The point I make is that we're electing the next President of the USA, not the next King. Everything Paul does will face the scrutiny of a tax-happy, trigger-happy Congress, and the compromise will turn out pretty well.

For instance, if Iran takes over Iraq after we leave, and Congress is all upset about it, then they can declare war on Iran. Paul's constitutional duty would then be to attack and win, whether he likes it or not. And if there is anything we can trust Ron to do, it's follow the Constitution.

Similarly, if Congress really wants a particular social program, they can vote it in over a presidential veto.

This may not be the most convincing argument, but it is practical.