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NYgs23
06-30-2010, 04:34 PM
Another Threat to Personal Liberty
What with the vast proliferation of pornographic material in our society due to the rise of the Internet, most people, especially of the younger generation, probably assume that pornography, provided it only involves consenting individuals over the legal age of majority, is perfectly legal and tolerated in our society.

However, if you look into the actual law and current atmosphere surrounding porn, you find that this assumption is naive. Federal laws are already on the books that could, in theory, prohibit the production, sale, and viewing over the Internet of most pornography--this laws are simply vague and not enforced in a serious or consistent. But social conservatives and other groups, increasingly upset by the very proliferation of pornography that has made many others more tolerant of it, are pushing for increased enforcement to constrict, if not abolish, pornography involving consenting legal adults.

I am not speaking about this issue in order to encourage the spread of pornography as a good or moral thing. Rather, with cracks finally appearing the federal government's catastrophic Drug War, I fear that the next social crusade on the list could be the War on Porn, complete prisons full of essentially innocent citizens and massive regulation of the Internet. The legal tools for such a thing are already in place, if Obama or a later president decides to use them...


Obscenity Laws
Many people do not realize that federal obscenity laws, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obscenity#United_States_obscenity_law) once used to try to censor works by James Joyce and Henry Miller, are still on the books. Obscenity is a federal felony punishable by up to five years in prison. It only applies to transmission of pornography across state lines, but in the age of the Internet, this could mean merely clicking a link and having the data sent across the cables to you computer's cache. And, of course, there are also plenty of state laws governing obscenity, varying widely (in Alabama, for example, the sale of dildos is banned as obscene).

The current legal standard of obscenity in the United States is the so-called Miller test (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miller_test), defined in a 5-4 Supreme Court ruling back in 1973. In essence, the Miller test tries to create an objective standard for the inherently subjective concept of obscenity by reference to other equally subjective concepts. It has three prongs: for the work to be considered obscene it must "appeal to prurient interest by contemporary community standards," it must depict or describe sexual conduct in a "patently offensive way," and, taken as a whole, it must lack "serious scientific, literary, artistic, or political value."

Clearly, this is all totally subjective and ambiguous. In effect, it means that no one knows whether or not a work is obscene until the matter is decided by the personal whims of twelve jurors. The law should be void due to vagueness, but it has been upheld time and again. Nor has that argument that if a work is subjected to state censorship it thereby acquires a sort of political value affected the courts' desire to maintain this blatant infringement on free speech.

However, almost any sort of sexual material could be illegally obscene, if some prosecutor decides to indict someone for it and it fails the Miller test according to the personal feelings of some jury. "Mere nudity" and vaginal penetration without the depiction of ejaculation have been definitively ruled as not obscene, but in theory everything else is fair game, from gay sex to money shots to naughty cartoons to dirty stories to raunchy humor in Hollywood movies (e.g. American Pie). Even here in the Western World in 2010, all the materials exist in a legal gray area; the could be illegal in some group of people says they are.


Persecution of Adult Pornographers
However, enforcement of this law has always been spotty on best, helped neither by modern society's shifting values, advancements in technology, nor the law's own ambiguity. The Reagan administration cracked down on obscenity somewhat, but the Clinton administration hardly enforced it at all, and pornography of all sorts exploded on the World Wide Web. But the Bush administration, pressured by social conservative lobbying groups, finally created the Obscenity Prosecution Task Force (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obscenity_Prosecution_Task_Force) in 2005. Anti-porn groups hoped for a major crackdown on "illegal adult pornography" but were disappointed when the Task Force wasn't really as rabid as they liked.

Nonetheless, a number of producers of pornographic materials of consenting adults have already been persecuted by this new vice squad. The OPTF has tended to concentrate on producers and distributors of the most extreme material, in hopes for easy convictions. These have included Rob Zicari and Janet Romano for simulated rape porn, Ira Isaacs for porn involving scat and bestiality, Max Hardcore for porn involving vomit, fisting, and other extremes, John Stagliano for anal porn, and Karen Fletcher for written stories involving child rape. Max Hardcore, at least, is currently serving a prison sentence. The government has even brought a case against the studio JM Productions, simply to demonstrate that merely showing a ejaculation (something 90% of non-lesbian porn shows) is obscene. That case appears to still be up in the air.

Another Bush era development was the passage of the PROTECT Act, which explicitly prohibits obscene "virtual pornography" (i.e. cartoons or drawings) of children. Under this, Christopher Handley was arrested and pled guilty for importing drawn lolicon into the country from Japan (for his own use). Meanwhile, that bastion of liberty, the UK has explicitly banned all "extreme" pornography, whatever that means, and the Australian government in busy black-listing websites it doesn't like.


Recent Developments
More recently, Barack "Bush III" Obama has unsurprisingly retained the OPTF and the extreme moralistic white knights who head it. The Obama administration seems less zealous as a whole, to be sure. Nonetheless, Attorney General Eric Holder has expressed at least moderate agreement (http://wizbangblue.com/2008/11/21/eric-holder-frightens-civil-libertarians.php) with the principle of persecuting peoples' personal sexual habits. New Supreme Court nominee, Elena Kagan, seemingly no friend of free speech or freedom, period, has spoken favorably (http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0610/39034.html) about using state force to shut down "low value" speech like pornography.

Several days ago, ICANN decided to created a new domain, ".xxx," specifically for pornography. Though optional and apparently benign, it is possible that such a domain to later become mandatory, in attempt corral pornographic websites for easy regulation and censorship.

Two weeks ago, a meeting of anti-porn (http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/jun/15/epidemic-growth-of-net-porn-cited/) was held at the US Capitol, involving a whole array of religious righters, anti-porn feminists, and assorted busybodies on a mission to push Congress to push the Justice Department to enforce our nation's arcane and archaic obscenity laws against adult porn. The arguments are many: porn, they say, destroys communities. It's addictive and affects changes in your neurons (you know, just like those bad, nasty drugs, and they're banned). It encourages rape (never mind the evidence against this). It degrades women (one wonders if that includes the one-third to one-half of porn that involves only men). And, most importantly, it's for the children. Of course, none of these arguments have anything to do with the one key issue that everyone involved with this porn is so by their own free choice.


Conclusion
Unfortunately, there's very little open opposition to this loud minority of moral crusaders. Few people imagine that there could be any major government intrusion into their sex lives in the Land of the Free, in this day and age. As long as it's "consenting adults" and you don't do it the street, then its perfectly legal and will stay that way, most folks wrongly assume. And few people, least of all politicians, want to be on the side of defending pornography, just as they don't want to be on the side of drugs. But that's what freedom entails, defending the right of people to do things you otherwise disapprove of.

I think it's important for liberty advocates to pay more attention to this issue, just as the anti-porn crusaders are. The moral busybodies always need a new boogeyman to battle, and I fear that the Internet porn war could easily become another War on Drugs. We shouldn't sit pretty and ignorant until the horse is already out of the barn; we should speak out against these first steps towards yet another disaster of moral authoritarianism, today.

Vessol
06-30-2010, 04:36 PM
I'm wondering what position many of the the Tea Party candidates will take on this issue.

heavenlyboy34
06-30-2010, 04:41 PM
anti-porn feminists are true hypocrites. :mad:

LibForestPaul
06-30-2010, 05:21 PM
I'm wondering what position many of the the Tea Party candidates will take on this issue.

:D

tangent4ronpaul
06-30-2010, 05:33 PM
I'm wondering what position many of the the Tea Party candidates will take on this issue.

I suspect there will be a strong split between the "doggy" and "reverse cowgirl" contingents with the more religious ones going for "missionary". :D

Something interesting just happened without a recorded vote in the name of sex crimes. Congress just did a huge power grab by extending the authority of federal law enforcement to all the oceans. The pretext for this was that there were something like 46 sexual assaults at sea on cruise ships last year, of which about 21 were considered "rape". I think it's HR 3360

This follows them mandating surveillance camera's on cruise ships as a deterrent to terrorism last year. :rolleyes:

-t

silentshout
06-30-2010, 06:36 PM
I agree with you, OP. I do think this could be ramped up in the coming years, especially with the feminists allying with the religious right types against this. Seriously, if you don't like porn, don't watch it. And parents who want the government to step in are idiots..seriously, parent your kids!! So many parents don't monitor what their kids do online, or anywhere really, and want the state to do it for them.

cindy25
06-30-2010, 07:35 PM
the war on porn is an excuse to control the internet, and fight so called piracy

sofia
06-30-2010, 07:57 PM
We dont allow factories to pollute public waterways....

nor should we allow Hollywood to pollute public morality....

We dont need an intrusive "War on Porn"....but the state should stamp out all the filth on TV, radio, and magazine stands etc.

Let porn (both soft and hard) be legal....but keep it discreet and underground so it doesnt pollute public morality.

The decline in morals is THE number one problem in our society. Austrian economics wont fix a broken, degenerate society with 50% divorce rates and 50% households headed by single women.

A moral and virtuous people is the foundation of a truly free society.

jkr
06-30-2010, 08:05 PM
nice horse swap... I'll delete ALL my porn 2 nite if we can sow cannabis hemp 2marow...f'it ill fireidup right now!

NYgs23
07-01-2010, 12:10 PM
We dont allow factories to pollute public waterways....

nor should we allow Hollywood to pollute public morality....

We dont need an intrusive "War on Porn"....but the state should stamp out all the filth on TV, radio, and magazine stands etc.

Let porn (both soft and hard) be legal....but keep it discreet and underground so it doesnt pollute public morality.

Well, unlike waterways, there can be no property rights in "public morality." There are public indecency laws, separate from the obscenity laws I was talking about, that allow the state to keep pornography out of publicly-owned areas. I don't really have a problem with these laws, although in a free society, property would be privately-owned and private owners could choose to have what they wanted on their property.


The decline in morals is THE number one problem in our society. Austrian economics wont fix a broken, degenerate society with 50% divorce rates and 50% households headed by single women.

A moral and virtuous people is the foundation of a truly free society.

I would suggest that one of the root causes of the instability of families and communities is economic. For example, normally, the elderly are cared for by their children or younger relatives, and this encourages marriage and child-rearing and strengthens familial and generational ties. However, this is element of society is drastically weakened by state-enforced Social Security crowding out private and voluntary methods of caring for the old.

lester1/2jr
07-01-2010, 12:20 PM
Obama has continued Bushs pointless war on pron like he has continued his other wars. in response to zero public outcry

FreeTraveler
07-01-2010, 12:25 PM
We dont allow factories to pollute public waterways....

nor should we allow Hollywood to pollute public morality....

We dont need an intrusive "War on Porn"....but the state should stamp out all the filth on TV, radio, and magazine stands etc.

Let porn (both soft and hard) be legal....but keep it discreet and underground so it doesnt pollute public morality.

The decline in morals is THE number one problem in our society. Austrian economics wont fix a broken, degenerate society with 50% divorce rates and 50% households headed by single women.

A moral and virtuous people is the foundation of a truly free society.
And, by god, if they don't WANT to be moral and virtuous, we'll MAKE them be moral and virtuous. :rolleyes:

Anybody doubt a war on porn is coming? Let Sarah Palin become First Theocrat of the Republic, and you'll learn a quick lesson in the "real American" purpose of the First Amendment. It sure won't be to protect those godless pornographers.

heavenlyboy34
07-01-2010, 12:29 PM
We dont allow factories to pollute public waterways....

nor should we allow Hollywood to pollute public morality....

We dont need an intrusive "War on Porn"....but the state should stamp out all the filth on TV, radio, and magazine stands etc.

Let porn (both soft and hard) be legal....but keep it discreet and underground so it doesnt pollute public morality.

The decline in morals is THE number one problem in our society. Austrian economics wont fix a broken, degenerate society with 50% divorce rates and 50% households headed by single women.

A moral and virtuous people is the foundation of a truly free society.

What makes you think it does? Public nudity is common in several European countries, but there is no correlation to "polluted public morality". The US is one of the few countries that gets so freaked out about nudity. Rather odd!

Kotin
07-01-2010, 12:32 PM
What makes you think it does? Public nudity is common in several European countries, but there is no correlation to "polluted public morality". The US is one of the few countries that gets so freaked out about nudity. Rather odd!

Qft.. The correlation makes absolutely no sense.

Krugerrand
07-01-2010, 12:37 PM
War on ..... anything ..... exists to further state sponsored corporations. For it to happen, you have to look at who stands to profit from it. I could see something sponsored by the "Porn Industry" to tramp out the competition that the 'free internet' provides.

JeNNiF00F00
07-01-2010, 12:43 PM
..

Peace&Freedom
07-01-2010, 12:46 PM
Like other social issues, porn is not a federal matter and should not be used to foster yet another national 'war' designed to mire us down in tyranny. But please note the progress towards a porn war described above is coming from the secular left, or humanist theocrats. So there is no reason to uniquely blame the Christian right for this trend.

The problem is not theocracy, it is authoritarianism, which can clearly be expressed in secular, pagan or traditional religious forms. There are non-authoritarian forms of traditional theocracy, such as the Christian based governance of the Founding Fathers, or the theocratic anarchistic society of ancient Israel. Our enemy is the State, not the Author of liberty.

dannno
07-01-2010, 12:48 PM
We dont allow factories to pollute public waterways....

nor should we allow Hollywood to pollute public morality....

We dont need an intrusive "War on Porn"....but the state should stamp out all the filth on TV, radio, and magazine stands etc.

Let porn (both soft and hard) be legal....but keep it discreet and underground so it doesnt pollute public morality.

The decline in morals is THE number one problem in our society. Austrian economics wont fix a broken, degenerate society with 50% divorce rates and 50% households headed by single women.

A moral and virtuous people is the foundation of a truly free society.


The solution is freedom.. if people need to be 'moral', whatever your definition of that is, then it will come in time in a free society...

I mean, you want the state to stamp out porn in the media, but they already control the media completely!! That is like a liberal saying that well, the government is corrupt and that's why welfare isn't working, we just need a better government to make a better welfare system! You and I both know there will never be a non-corrupt welfare system.. Apply that principle here ... Take the government OUT, abolish the FCC, let private enterprise take over, let parents decide what their kids watch.. morality will come in time, but it isn't going to come through force. The state cannot make a society moral, in fact they do the opposite!

Krugerrand
07-01-2010, 12:48 PM
What makes you think it does? Public nudity is common in several European countries, but there is no correlation to "polluted public morality". The US is one of the few countries that gets so freaked out about nudity. Rather odd!

Not to imply right or wrong ... but Europe is hardly what I hold up as an ideal model. They're doomed to collapse if for no other reason than they do not sufficiently procreate. The Muslims that immigrate into Europe are surely more nudity-sensitive. (ie see Paris Headscarf stories) As the population demographics shift, so will the 'European way.'

JeNNiF00F00
07-01-2010, 12:53 PM
..

tangent4ronpaul
07-01-2010, 12:56 PM
if people need to be 'moral',..

Convince all the women in your neighborhood to wear a burka at all time... at the point of a gun, if necessary. :rolleyes:

That is exactly the hole we are digging for ourselves. Screw the puritans! Er - wait! - better that they don't procreate!

-t

catdd
07-01-2010, 12:59 PM
"I suspect there will be a strong split between the "doggy" and "reverse cowgirl" contingents with the more religious ones going for "missionary". "

Ha! But regardless of what we think of porn, this is just more gov intervention, and RP once said that if you allow even a small part of GI, you may as well allow it all.

fisharmor
07-01-2010, 12:59 PM
Austrian economics wont fix a broken, degenerate society with 50% divorce rates and 50% households headed by single women.

Um... yes it will.
If the state didn't guarantee that single woman some residual income after she dumps her sperm donor, she might be a little more discriminating.

As a result, men would be made to understand that they aren't getting any unless and until they make a commitment that means something. Meaning they'd be more discriminating as well.

The state has basically blessed this nonsense by enumerating ways to make it ok for it to happen.

If there were no guarantees, people would return to the market for protections against this sort of thing. The market happens to be places like churches, which have been corrupted for the last 50 years from this state influence, and where it's no longer the moral outrage it once was for a man to leave his wife in the gutter.

heavenlyboy34
07-01-2010, 01:03 PM
Not to imply right or wrong ... but Europe is hardly what I hold up as an ideal model. They're doomed to collapse if for no other reason than they do not sufficiently procreate. The Muslims that immigrate into Europe are surely more nudity-sensitive. (ie see Paris Headscarf stories) As the population demographics shift, so will the 'European way.'

Not in every way, of course, but it some. I didn't mean to imply that Europe is at all a libertarian paradise-quite the contrary in most ways.:(

heavenlyboy34
07-01-2010, 01:04 PM
"I suspect there will be a strong split between the "doggy" and "reverse cowgirl" contingents with the more religious ones going for "missionary". "

Ha! But regardless of what we think of it, this is just more gov intervention.

I lol'ed at that! :D;)

youngbuck
07-01-2010, 01:50 PM
Like other social issues, porn is not a federal matter and should not be used to foster yet another national 'war' designed to mire us down in tyranny. But please note the progress towards a porn war described above is coming from the secular left, or humanist theocrats. So there is no reason to uniquely blame the Christian right for this trend.

The problem is not theocracy, it is authoritarianism, which can clearly be expressed in secular, pagan or traditional religious forms. There are non-authoritarian forms of traditional theocracy, such as the Christian based governance of the Founding Fathers, or the theocratic anarchistic society of ancient Israel. Our enemy is the State, not the Author of liberty.

Voted best post of the thread.

andrewh817
07-01-2010, 01:54 PM
We dont allow factories to pollute public waterways....


Yet somehow more and more lakes and rivers are polluted every year.


nor should we allow Hollywood to pollute public morality....

There is no such thing as "public morality." I have my own morals, and you have yours.


We dont need an intrusive "War on Porn"....but the state should stamp out all the filth on TV, radio, and magazine stands etc.

Explain to me how that is not intrusive! If I write an article for a newspaper describing a sexual encounter I had recently, if the newspaper wants to publish it, then they're willing to take the risk! If people don't want to read those type of articles then they can contact the newspaper and tell them so or they can stop reading the newspaper. If enough people decide not buy the newspaper the company loses money, and thus has an incentive to not publish such articles.


Let porn (both soft and hard) be legal....but keep it discreet and underground so it doesnt pollute public morality.

I really don't understand what you mean. If you were forced to watch hardcore porn every single day would your ideals surrounding porn change? If you were forced to watch executions every single day would your ideals surrounding murder change? If not, then why do you think hiding away porn is going to change anyone's ideals?


The decline in morals is THE number one problem in our society. Austrian economics wont fix a broken, degenerate society with 50% divorce rates and 50% households headed by single women.
We're in agreement there, however violence is not the solution to a decline in morals.

Will you please explain what is immoral about porn? Two people agree to have sex for money from a third party who tapes the video and pays them. It's a business transaction. If you're against the pleasure aspect of it, what makes the penis and vagina so sacred? If someone offers to pay two people to rub each others feet on videotape wouldn't that be immoral too?

MelissaWV
07-01-2010, 02:07 PM
The loudest objectors are sometimes closet freaks, anyways. This is a little different in that many drugs were illegal almost upon invention. Porn didn't just arrive. Porn is even a part of "coming of age" for some guys, going all the way back to the oldest generations currently alive. Go to some old folks' home and tell the few old men you find still alive that the Government wants to outlaw girlie magazines.

Well, now instead of magazines, there's the internet. There are sites that cater to people who like to see clothed people as sex objects, all the way to those who like to see the insides of the people they desire. You choose the level of intimacy, as long as your local laws decide you're old enough not to be mentally scarred by it.

I guarantee you that the Legislative Branch is full of a lot of kinky sickos, and the stuff on their computers would make half of us fall over in a dead faint :p I'm sure some legislation will pass, especially locally, as part of a "War on Porn," but it just won't fly on a national level. There's too many of us involved. Hell, everyone who ever clicked on that "stuff guys like" thread when it had all the pictures showing... has viewed "porn."

constituent
07-01-2010, 02:15 PM
I hope so.

The thought of cruising around shady areas of town waiting to drop a couple bills on something
I've been assured by my new friends will be porn, ducking the law and all that, really turns me on. :rolleyes:

Just think about it. How much sweeter will that illicit porn be? How much greater will you value that which you've earned? ;) :)

C'mon, look at what scarcity did for cocaine!

It'll be like an urban renewal/jobs stimulus package all rolled into one.
A whole new customer base purchasing slurpees at the 7/11 waiting for their connection.
As a matter of fact, this could be exactly the shot in the arm that this country needs!

Protection rackets, underground distribution networks, jobs everywhere!

NYgs23
07-01-2010, 06:31 PM
...please note the progress towards a porn war described above is coming from the secular left, or humanist theocrats. So there is no reason to uniquely blame the Christian right for this trend.

I don't know about all that. While feminists and "childrens' advocate" types share a lot of blame, it must be admitted that a welter of socially conservative Christian organizations is one of, if not the biggest driver of this initiative. Groups like the Alliance Defense Fund, Citizens for Community Values, Concerned Women for America, and Focus on the Family are at the forefront of this, along with the "conservative" senator Orrin Hatch.

I'm a Christian, and I really think that freedom-minded Christians ought to be more vigorous in promoting the view the Christ did not advocate imposing virtue through violence. The reputation of Christianity, as a whole, is tainted with its ongoing association with authoritarian busybodies like those mentioned above, and their constant attempts to shove their "values" down everyone else's throats is probably one of the chief reasons for the current rise of hardline atheism.

Brooklyn Red Leg
07-02-2010, 08:49 AM
anti-porn feminists are true hypocrites. :mad:

Indeedy. They're also the same ones that usually scream the loudest that they own their own bodies (abortion) but want anti-prostitution laws passed left and right. Cognitive Dissonance at its finest.

NYgs23
07-03-2010, 12:42 PM
Indeedy. They're also the same ones that usually scream the loudest that they own their own bodies (abortion) but want anti-prostitution laws passed left and right. Cognitive Dissonance at its finest.

What's worse is that they really don't give women credit as autonomous beings capable of making their own choices without the help of the "sisterhood."

Eleutheros
07-05-2010, 11:37 PM
Essentially, it's coming down to this:

YouTube - 2 Live Crew - Banned In The U.S.A. [High Quality] (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nEH_ms8d1ws&feature=related)

KurtBoyer25L
07-06-2010, 12:07 AM
We dont need an intrusive "War on Porn"....but the state should stamp out all the filth on TV, radio, and magazine stands etc.

It's hard to sum up cultural/religious elitism, militant statist fascism, rhetorical newspeak & megalomania in one sentence like that. Congrats.

rawful
07-06-2010, 02:41 AM
Boy, I can't wait for the Mexican porn cartels to smuggle actresses across the border to film. I'm sure all of the girls will be consenting too.

Natalie
07-06-2010, 08:09 AM
the war on porn is an excuse to control the internet, and fight so called piracy

This. I do not think it has to do with porn at all. Kiddie porn will be used as an excuse to control the internet. As we all know, the news on TV is completely controlled. The internet is still new, so it is cheap to start your own website, which is why there is freedom in the news online. But if they start making domains really expensive or something, they will be able to control the internet too.