I **REALLY** want everyone's opinion on what I am thinking about doing.

[freshjiva]

I am a 24-yr old college graduate. I make $50K per year in a pretty decent job, but am marred with student loan debt. I pay for myself -- rent, bills, food, etc. I live in a very modest apartment with very little luxuries. I ride my bike to/from work every day. Overall I live an extremely simple lifestyle.

Like everyone else on this board, I've had it with taxes. I hate taxes. I cringe when I look at my paycheck and see what I take home versus what I could be taking home.

I HATE THE FACT THAT THE GOVERNMENT USES MY MONEY TO PURSUE WARS BASED ON LIES, BAIL OUT RICH WALL STREET BANKERS, AND HAND OUT FREE MONEY TO THOSE WHO DO NOTHING.

I've had it with this monstrous federal piece of shit government.

So I am thinking about taking a measure that might seem contradictory to everything the Liberty movement is about.

I am going fake my salary to make it seem like I make close to minimum wage. Then, I am going to my local Department of Health & Human Services office and applying for food stamps.

What's my logic? Even though I am against ALL entitlements, this is MY WAY of taking back what is rightfully mine. I pay over $350 in federal taxes each month. If the government is going to continue to rape me of my own earned money, at least I can gather SOME of it back in the form of food stamps.

What does everyone think about this?

[Elle]

What will you use for pay stubs? You eventually have to provide those.

[Bruno]

Not an approach I would recommend.

[cswake]

No.

[Kludge]

If you really hate taxes, quit your job.

[MelissaWV]

I am a 24-yr old college graduate. I make $50K per year in a pretty decent job, but am marred with student loan debt. I pay for myself -- rent, bills, food, etc. I live in a very modest apartment with very little luxuries. I ride my bike to/from work every day. Overall I live an extremely simple lifestyle.

Like everyone else on this board, I've had it with taxes. I hate taxes. I cringe when I look at my paycheck and see what I take home versus what I could be taking home.

I HATE THE FACT THAT THE GOVERNMENT USES MY MONEY TO PURSUE WARS BASED ON LIES, BAIL OUT RICH WALL STREET BANKERS, AND HAND OUT FREE MONEY TO THOSE WHO DO NOTHING.

I've had it with this monstrous federal piece of shit government.

So I am thinking about taking a measure that might seem contradictory to everything the Liberty movement is about.

I am going fake my salary to make it seem like I make close to minimum wage. Then, I am going to my local Department of Health & Human Services office and applying for food stamps.

What's my logic? Even though I am against ALL entitlements, this is MY WAY of taking back what is rightfully mine. I pay over $350 in federal taxes each month. If the government is going to continue to rape me of my own earned money, at least I can gather SOME of it back in the form of food stamps.

What does everyone think about this?

I have no idea what you've heard, but DHHR does check your income and claims in most cases. It's not a gamble that's got good odds if you're faking (and you are). Food stamps are calculated based on a number of factors. Depending on where you live, making above minimum wage at a full-time job might mean you qualify for very little benefit. Swelling the welfare numbers to "reclaim" will also tend to bite you in the ass later, unless you plan on doing this forever.

[micahnelson]

You aren't taking back what is yours. The federal government is overspending, so you are taking what is your grandchildren's.

People don't like being poor, you know. This idea that living off the system is some sort of high life is not well thought out. Forms, paperwork, meetings with agencies, having all your financial records open for the world to see. It doesn't seem pleasant to me. Why would they do it? Well they don't have many other options.

If you decide to deposit your money into the general federal coffers, but then withdraw only from the money allocated to the poor- you are depleting the budget used to feed the hungry.

But, I say do it for a while. Write a blog about the experience. Meet the people who wait in line. Stand in their shoes, get the jeers from the people in the supermarket. See what its like. There is a high emotional price for so called free food. I think you'll decide it isn't worth it- a conclusion that is useless to the poor who have no other choices.

So, does this mean I want to pour out my bleeding heart with your wallets? No. I want local initiatives to replace federal ones. Common gardens, local charities, and religious organizations are the appropriate method for handling the needs of the poor. Its better for those receiving help, more rewarding for those helping, and more financially efficient as well.

For those of you who believe that all men should be self-made and not depend on others- I would ask if you enjoy your liberty that was given to you by your forefathers, your upbringing given to you by your parents, your language given to you by scholars, your way of life given to you by scientists and businesses... the list goes on. Everyone depends on someone at some time.

[BadPenny]

I don't have any problem with it in principle, just understand that you may get arrested and raped.

But I don't think it's morally wrong.


-Rob

[micahnelson]

Oh and one more thing, if you wanna be ballsy, declare 99 dependents on your w2. Get back all your taxes, and then go to jail for tax evasion.

Taking food from poor people to fight the man; Civil Disobedience- UR DOIN IT WRONG.

[LibertyMage]

Risk jail for a bit of cash? Why not just organize and take the country back?

[t0rnado]

No, you will not win against the government in the governments' courts when you get charged with fraud and tax evasion.

If you plan on popping caps in the IRS agents when they show up at your door AND you know how to live in a forest for a prolonged period of time while being chased, then go for it. Don't do this if you think you'll get away with it legally.

[Anti Federalist]

Risk jail for a bit of cash? Why not just organize and take the country back?

Organize who?

The two percent that understand and give a shit?

[RileyE104]

You shouldn't do anything that could get you arrested and/or ruin your marriage...

[Son of Detroit]

If you are married/have kids, I would hope you'd be smarter not to do this.

[Anti Federalist]

You shouldn't do anything that could get you arrested and/or ruin your marriage...

Shit, name something that won't get you arrested these days.

[Danke]

I am a 24-yr old college graduate. I make $50K per year in a pretty decent job, but am marred with student loan debt. I pay for myself -- rent, bills, food, etc. I live in a very modest apartment with very little luxuries. I ride my bike to/from work every day. Overall I live an extremely simple lifestyle.

Like everyone else on this board, I've had it with taxes. I hate taxes. I cringe when I look at my paycheck and see what I take home versus what I could be taking home.

I HATE THE FACT THAT THE GOVERNMENT USES MY MONEY TO PURSUE WARS BASED ON LIES, BAIL OUT RICH WALL STREET BANKERS, AND HAND OUT FREE MONEY TO THOSE WHO DO NOTHING.

I've had it with this monstrous federal piece of shit government.

So I am thinking about taking a measure that might seem contradictory to everything the Liberty movement is about.

I am going fake my salary to make it seem like I make close to minimum wage. Then, I am going to my local Department of Health & Human Services office and applying for food stamps.

What's my logic? Even though I am against ALL entitlements, this is MY WAY of taking back what is rightfully mine. I pay over $350 in federal taxes each month. If the government is going to continue to rape me of my own earned money, at least I can gather SOME of it back in the form of food stamps.

What does everyone think about this?

Never "fake" anything like that. It is fraud.

But do study the tax laws. You may already be paying on a false liability WRT the income tax.

Follow the links below \/

[Paulitical Correctness]

No dude.

[Valli6]

I don't think earning minimum wage is enough to qualify you for food stamps. You'd have to be supporting several kids too. Just because your math indicates you wouldn't have money for food after rent, loan, etc; doesn't mean they'd give it to you.

[micahnelson]

Shit, name something that won't get you arrested these days.

I have a whole theory on this. There are different circles of acceptable behavior. In the inner circle is paying taxes, paying rent/mortgage, working at a job, and watching broadcast television. If you only do these things, you will never have interference from the government. You will always be encouraged to work for someone else, your taxes will automatically be paid, and they will do what it takes to make sure you get at least one or two major broadcasters in your area. They will make sure landlords rent to you, and that you get connected to a mortgage.

As you cross into the next spheres, watching cable, using the internet, owning a house (with no mortgage)... things get trickier.

By the time you get to the last sphere- planning a protest, starting your own business, growing and selling your own food, homeschooling your kids... you better get lawyered up real quick. You're going to be fighting the law on an almost daily basis.

[ninepointfive]

No, because your employer also reports your earnings information to the IRS. You will be audited. Try Again!

[tmosley]

You are much better off saving the cash, and once you have enough to maintain a good lifestyle in perpetuity, quit your job and go off the grid.

I am working on doing this myself. sunelec.com has some great deals on solar panels now. I should be able to provide all my power for a mere $12K, though I'm torn between getting the system now, and waiting for my silver to appreciate. I bought a few solar panels, enough to run some small electronics or run a well pump.

If you have the time to invest, you can set up a very nice self sufficient remote cabin (google earthships) for well under $50K including the solar system. It's largely a matter of getting the land and putting the hours in (building).

[Danke]

By the time you get to the last sphere- planning a protest, starting your own business, growing and selling your own food, homeschooling your kids... you better get lawyered up real quick. You're going to be fighting the law on an almost daily basis.

Hiring an officer of the court is usually a bad move if you are "bucking" the system.

I've seen too many go down in flames with a lawyer supposedly on their side.

Get with a local group, you will have plenty of support.

But getting rid of your fear is the first step.

[Danke]

You are much better off saving the cash, and once you have enough to maintain a good lifestyle in perpetuity, quit your job and go off the grid.

I am working on doing this myself. sunelec.com has some great deals on solar panels now. I should be able to provide all my power for a mere $12K, though I'm torn between getting the system now, and waiting for my silver to appreciate. I bought a few solar panels, enough to run some small electronics or run a well pump.

If you have the time to invest, you can set up a very nice self sufficient remote cabin (google earthships) for well under $50K including the solar system. It's largely a matter of getting the land and putting the hours in (building).

I like this. But finding a nice place to live without property taxes is hard.

[tmosley]

I like this. But finding a nice place to live without property taxes is hard.

True, but many places are very cheap, and you can either get a small job to pay it, or do some trade.

For example, I only pay about $200/year on my home, as it is outside of the city, and has no services from the county except for roads and basic police.

[Danke]

True, but many places are very cheap, and you can either get a small job to pay it, or do some trade.

For example, I only pay about $200/year on my home, as it is outside of the city, and has no services from the county except for roads and basic police.

Only $200, wow. ...but Texas is way to hot for me. :(

[ClayTrainor]

I don't think the risk is worth the reward, man. I feel your pain on the tax burden, I wish I had a good answer for you.

I'm very frustrated by my tax burden right now as well. I just got all sorts of complicated information in the mail today about Canada's new Tax code. I don't understand it, but I'm quite sure that it's going to result in a higher taxes on my business. I'm already paying close to 50% of everything I've ever earned.

Ive been looking into Hong Kong and how low their taxes are. I'd seriously consider a move there, if the governments let me.


http://gohongkong.about.com/od/businessbasics/a/HongKongTax.htm

One of the most common questions about the worlds ‘freest economy’ is whether it truly has no tax. Although this is untrue, Hong Kong tax is extremely low.

As it is, you'd need a team of sniffer dogs to try and find a tax in Hong Kong - with no sales tax, no capital gains tax, no VAT and plans in the pipeline to phase out stamp duties, the people are less than enthusiastic about direct taxation. Income tax, or salary tax as it is known, is set at 2% for those earning less than HK$35,000 a year, 8% for HK$35,000-HK$70,000, 14% for HK$70,000-HK$105,000 and 20% for anything exceeding that.

This low level of taxation brings Brits, Aussies and Americans by land, sea, air and camel to escape their native countries' tax regimes, contributing to Hong Kong's internationalism. Similarly, corporate tax, (or profits tax as it is known), is set at the bargain rate of 16% of assessable profits.

All in all, the government gets it hands on very little money through direct taxation. This allows SMEs to flourish and encourages would-be entrepreneurs to throw their hat into the business ring.

Hong Kong Tax:

No sales tax
No capital gains tax
No VAT
Maximum salary tax of 20%
Profit tax maximum of 16%

[Matt Collins]

That is considered fraud and deception. Just because the government does it doesn't make it ok for you to do it. That being said, you should hire a tax attorney instead to find out how to shelter more of your money although for the amount you make it might not be beneficial.

[UnReconstructed]

do it

[freshjiva]

Thanks everyone for your feedback. Points well taken.

Though I do want to make one comment: getting food stamps is a completely separate issue from taxation. I am not considering manipulating my income for IRS reporting purposes. I am NOT trying to evade taxes or deceive the IRS to change my tax liability. What I'm saying is that I want to deceive the DHS so that I can qualify for food stamps. You don't need children to qualify. The minimum requirements to qualify are that you work at least 20 hrs/week, and the closer your income is to minimum wage, the higher the monthly food stamp amount you are given.

I've talked to people who receive food stamps and they have all said the DHS is clueless at enforcing strict requirements. It's not something the Feds come after you for.

[libertybrewcity]

there are better ways to go about this. first, there are a few states, i think seven to be exact, that have no income tax. you could move to one of those states and maybe ask for a job transfer.
you could plan this for a year or two before leaving.

i don't know what your job but there are programs like a doctor working on an indian reservation that would pay of the school bills. that may not apply.

government fraud is not the answer though. i believe there is legislation you can vote on in michigan this next election that will ban you from being able to hold office if you have a fraud conviction.

also, i don't think a simple life is all that bad. if you have kids you could home school them to save money. you could grow your own food to save money. there are certain things you don't need like cable tv. those are the obvious things. maybe you are living a 'poor' life instead of a 'simple' life.

goodluck, friends and family are there for you, but if the government does find out about your fraud they will f### you.

[libertybrewcity]

i also recommend reading the book "Crunchy Cons"

[TinCanToNA]

The system is designed to make it easy to become a criminal. Do not do make it any easier! I highly recommend against fraud.

[TNforPaul45]

Both you and your employer independently report your income to the IRS in separate filings of paperwork. If there is a major discrepancy, then you will be audited.

Then, the small amount of attention that the Fed Gov pays to you by taxing you will be multiplied as the full wrath of the Tax Collectors come down upon you. Your life will be ruined for more than a decade.

I would advise against it.

[BenIsForRon]

Don't do it. Fight the system, don't submit to it.

[Danke]

Both you and your employer independently report your income to the IRS in separate filings of paperwork. If there is a major discrepancy, then you will be audited.

Then, the small amount of attention that the Fed Gov pays to you by taxing you will be multiplied as the full wrath of the Tax Collectors come down upon you. Your life will be ruined for more than a decade.

I would advise against it.

First hand knowledge?

[klamath]

I heard this exact story before only it was forty years ago. You young people are paying the price now for those type of actions and it will be a bigger price for your children.

[Danke]

I heard this exact story before only it was forty years ago. You young people are paying the price now for those type of actions and it will be a bigger price for your children.

So after forty years, what is your answer?

[susano]

Bad idea, OP. Find a job for cash. Fraud is bad. So is jail.

[micahnelson]

Bad idea, OP. Find a job for cash. Fraud is bad. So is jail.

I dunno, prisoners get to mooch off the system too. He could get his money back in the form of the use of federal prison facilities.

[susano]

I dunno, prisoners get to mooch off the system too. He could get his money back in the form of the use of federal prison facilities.

And a free uniform! Maybe a nice "girlfriend", too.

lol

[2young2vote]

As long as you can remain self reliant, you can do whatever you want. My grandfather and dad both say that someone can greatly benefit from taking advantage of the system. But, they both also say to make sure you do not become reliant on the system, because that is what the government wants.

I'll tell you what my dad is saying - open up a cash business. Most of your income will be cash so the government can't, or will not spend the resources to, know where the money is going.

[bunklocoempire]

I am a 24-yr old college graduate. I make $50K per year in a pretty decent job, but am marred with student loan debt. I pay for myself -- rent, bills, food, etc. I live in a very modest apartment with very little luxuries. I ride my bike to/from work every day. Overall I live an extremely simple lifestyle.

Like everyone else on this board, I've had it with taxes. I hate taxes. I cringe when I look at my paycheck and see what I take home versus what I could be taking home.

I HATE THE FACT THAT THE GOVERNMENT USES MY MONEY TO PURSUE WARS BASED ON LIES, BAIL OUT RICH WALL STREET BANKERS, AND HAND OUT FREE MONEY TO THOSE WHO DO NOTHING.

I've had it with this monstrous federal piece of shit government.

So I am thinking about taking a measure that might seem contradictory to everything the Liberty movement is about.
I am going fake my salary to make it seem like I make close to minimum wage. Then, I am going to my local Department of Health & Human Services office and applying for food stamps.

What's my logic? Even though I am against ALL entitlements, this is MY WAY of taking back what is rightfully mine. I pay over $350 in federal taxes each month. If the government is going to continue to rape me of my own earned money, at least I can gather SOME of it back in the form of food stamps.

What does everyone think about this?

Keep your soul.

Play the stupid game, but play it as smart as you can.

Start removing yourself from the stupid game as much as your circumstances will allow you.

Continue to work to change the stupid game.

Wealthy folks pay someone to help them deal with the stupid game, not-so- wealthy folks grow their own vegetables etc. to deal with the stupid game.

Find that place in the middle that works for you.


Bunkloco

[Razmear]

Turn on, tune in, drop out!



Leary later explained in his 1983 autobiography:
'Turn on' meant go within to activate your neural and genetic equipment. Become sensitive to the many and various levels of consciousness and the specific triggers that engage them. Drugs were one way to accomplish this end. 'Tune in' meant interact harmoniously with the world around you - externalize, materialize, express your new internal perspectives. 'Drop out' suggested an elective, selective, graceful process of detachment from involuntary or unconscious commitments. 'Drop Out' meant self-reliance, a discovery of one's singularity, a commitment to mobility, choice, and change. Unhappily my explanations of this sequence of personal development were often misinterpreted to mean 'Get stoned and abandon all constructive activity'.

[libertybrewcity]

haha

[newbitech]

I think there are better ways of getting your money back. For starters, if you can keep more of it up front, then there is less that you need to worry about getting back.

I'd set up an S-Corp and get a real tax ID. Then, talk to your employer about setting up an arrangement where instead of reporting you as an employee, report you as a service provider. This way, it will be your responsibility to assess your taxes. You will get all of your money up front.

From there, you are going to need to dig into the S-Corp laws and find all the deductions you can. Your car payment for travel to and from work along with gas bills, and estimated maintenance. Also, you will need to set up an office in your apartment. What ever percentage square footage wise that your office is, claim that off your CoL bills, rent, power, water, phone, internet. Save all your food receipts as well.

The key is finding that "employer" who will agree to a contract for services rather than paying you through payroll. I think if you approach your employer in terms of how much they can save by not having to pay SSN, Payroll Tax, and future cost of health care, you may even be able to work a raise out of the deal. The employer wouldn't even need to report your earnings because you'd no longer be their employee. There is no benefit for either party to be an employee.

Yes, you'd probably lose your health care coverage, paid time off, etc etc.. but you can find health care that fits your needs better than a central planning HR can.

Make sure you find a really good CPA and pay him to take care of your receipts.

You'll end up feeling "cleaner" than trying to defraud the dept of children and families. Plus, there are tons of perks that come with the privilege of being a real entity of the state. One of those perks is that cool ID they send you that says everything that you do is in the name of your business. You get wholesale discounts from suppliers, and you also don't have to sweat liability if someone finds a reason to sue you while you are at work, which should be pretty much 24/7.

Go for it, I am doing it and really, all it takes is 1 or 2 satisfied clients and your reputation grows from there. I have signed 3 contracts this year, and I can happily say that I am truly independent from the system, even tho I took steps that put me neck deep into it.

GO FOR IT!, But don't commit food stamp fraud, thats just lame!

Oh, one more thing. If your current employer doesn't like these arrangements, consider finding out how to make yourself redundant without requiring any disciplinary action. Shouldn't be too hard, just go libertarian ape shit on everyone in every conversation. Then, collect your back taxes for a year while you set up your office and base of operations.

[newbitech]

As long as you can remain self reliant, you can do whatever you want. My grandfather and dad both say that someone can greatly benefit from taking advantage of the system. But, they both also say to make sure you do not become reliant on the system, because that is what the government wants.

I'll tell you what my dad is saying - open up a cash business. Most of your income will be cash so the government can't, or will not spend the resources to, know where the money is going.

ding ding ding!

[WaltM]

I am a 24-yr old college graduate. I make $50K per year in a pretty decent job, but am marred with student loan debt. I pay for myself -- rent, bills, food, etc. I live in a very modest apartment with very little luxuries. I ride my bike to/from work every day. Overall I live an extremely simple lifestyle.

Like everyone else on this board, I've had it with taxes. I hate taxes. I cringe when I look at my paycheck and see what I take home versus what I could be taking home.

I HATE THE FACT THAT THE GOVERNMENT USES MY MONEY TO PURSUE WARS BASED ON LIES, BAIL OUT RICH WALL STREET BANKERS, AND HAND OUT FREE MONEY TO THOSE WHO DO NOTHING.

I've had it with this monstrous federal piece of shit government.

So I am thinking about taking a measure that might seem contradictory to everything the Liberty movement is about.

I am going fake my salary to make it seem like I make close to minimum wage. Then, I am going to my local Department of Health & Human Services office and applying for food stamps.

What's my logic? Even though I am against ALL entitlements, this is MY WAY of taking back what is rightfully mine. I pay over $350 in federal taxes each month. If the government is going to continue to rape me of my own earned money, at least I can gather SOME of it back in the form of food stamps.

What does everyone think about this?

I'm not against taking advantage of the system if they allow it, but I'd not cheat the government intentionally, that's serious crime. Lying for money is fraud, even worse if you do it to the government (if they don't enforce it, that's another story).

Most programs that offer money will ask you to sign a line that says "I certify & declare under penalty of perjury", DON'T BE STUPID.

Let's say, even if you pay $350 a month in taxes, how much can you possibly get back in food stamps? If you want to "get back" at them, do it legally and learn to maximumize deductions.

USE the system, DON'T CHEAT THEM.
(I'm too broke myself to do either of them)

[WaltM]

If you really hate taxes, quit your job.

yeah!

He makes $4K a month and complains about losing $400?

WHY NOT put that $400 towards a car payment (or mortgage), that might just be tax deductible.

[rprprs]

Organize who?

The two percent that understand and give a shit?

Do you really think it's that high a percentage? I'm no longer sure I do. :(

[pacelli]

If you are going to do this as an act of civil disobedience, then you must be fully prepared to joyfully accept the consequences.

[specialkornflake]

I agree that your original post is a bad route in practical terms. Many other better ideas in previous posts.

A Civil Disobedience idea that you might like based on reading your post, although I don't give personal recommendation or non-recommendation, is the Peace Tax Return: http://www.nwtrcc.org/peacetaxreturn.htm

[pacelli]

If you are really interested in no longer paying taxes, there is a legal and final way to accomplish the goal. You'll need to rescind your citizenship in the US and become a denizen.

[MelissaWV]

Thanks everyone for your feedback. Points well taken.

Though I do want to make one comment: getting food stamps is a completely separate issue from taxation. I am not considering manipulating my income for IRS reporting purposes. I am NOT trying to evade taxes or deceive the IRS to change my tax liability. What I'm saying is that I want to deceive the DHS so that I can qualify for food stamps. You don't need children to qualify. The minimum requirements to qualify are that you work at least 20 hrs/week, and the closer your income is to minimum wage, the higher the monthly food stamp amount you are given.

I've talked to people who receive food stamps and they have all said the DHS is clueless at enforcing strict requirements. It's not something the Feds come after you for.

I have been on foodstamps before, albeit for only a month or two and I hated it. Your income is verified. Reporting one income to DHS and another to the IRS is asking for trouble. You might slip past (they don't check everyone with equal vigor, especially with the volume they're currently experiencing). You might not. They *will* call your job, or ask that you get paperwork signed and submit that. Forging documents from your boss to fake your hours/income will go beyond DHS and the IRS. If you're found out, how do you think your boss would take it?

The answer to hating the Government and what it does ... is not sinking deeper into it.

[noxagol]

I would not. This opens up a real world of bad for very little pay off imo.

[klamath]

So after forty years, what is your answer?
Don't do it.