dannno
06-21-2010, 01:49 AM
See comments section:
http://www.independent.com/news/2010/jun/18/capps-gives-oil-execs-third-degree/
:eek:
Edit: I was tired last night, here's the conversation:
Title: Capps Gives Oil Execs the Third Degree
Asks Why Spill Cleanup Technology Has Not Improved in Decades
Comments:
Me: Why is she asking oil executives? Lois Capps needs to ask me why oil spill clean up technology has lagged, because I can give an intellectually honest answer.
The federal government capped liability for oil companies to pay for oil spills at $75 million. That is a ridiculously meager amount compared to their profits.
Let's brighten this up with an analogy. If the government capped the amount drivers were responsible for damages they do to other people's cars in an accident at $1,000, would anybody buy car insurance? Maybe, but the car insurance would only pay out a maximum of $1,000 so it would only cost probably $10 a month. This might sound fantastic to those who have high car insurance premiums, but what about everybody else? How do they benefit? Now they have to pay additional taxes to come up with all of the extra damages. Beyond that, the bigger problem would be that the government would be creating a moral hazard. Getting in an accident wouldn't be as big of a deal, although nobody wants to end up in the hospital so it wouldn't drastically change driving habits, most people would still drive relatively safe. So the oil companies are 'relatively safe' when they pump wells and transport oil.. but they don't have full responsibility for what happens, so there is no incentive to develop clean-up technology. Does Lois Capps honestly expect the oil executives to develop this stuff out of the goodness of their heart? Sorry Lois, that isn't happening. Now you give them a business reason to develop clean up technologies, full liability in oil spills, and you will see technology develop.
Lois Capps needs to learn about the magic of the free market. The same thing happened to our financial system in the recent collapse, government gave too many guarantees on loans and the Federal Reserve artificially lowered interest rates and single handedly created the housing bubble. A free market never would have allowed the housing bubble to occur in the first place, and there would actually be much less fraud.. although EVEN IN THE FREE MARKET fraud is still illegal, many people seem to think that free market means no rules. Contracts, theft and property damage are still prosecuted by the state in the free market.
sbpuppet: "The federal government capped liability for oil companies to pay for oil spills at $75 million. That is a ridiculously meager amount compared to their profits."
Uh that doesn't apply if there is negligence. And there was a lot of negligence here.
"Contracts, theft and property damage are still prosecuted by the state in the free market."
Agreed, but it has its limits when it comes to tragedy of the commons, google it.
I am happy that Capps made this guy squirm, thanks, keep it up and I'll vote for you again Lois! These oil booms are meant for PR only. Reality is, oil cleanup is still haphazard and it's all PR. Oil booms don't work, cleaning up birds doesn't work since best case is they die of oil toxicity. BP doesn't allow the media to see the bird cleanup. So far BP has only offered PR campaigns. Chew up these execs and spit 'em out... don't hold back, they deserve it.
contactjohn: And the magic of the "Free Market" is? The Free Market owns government! What part of that escapes the "Free Market" proponents who on the one hand blame government for ineptitude and then foster that government ineptitude with the revolving door of lobbyists, congress and corporate executives who are put in charge of regulatory bodies who then, write the regulations for their industries. Dear Lord when will the brainwashing stop!
Example: Congressman Joe Barton, apologist for the oil companies worked for Atlantic Richfield for 18 years before becoming a congressman. BP bought Arco and they are the ones funding Joe Barton's retirement. As far as the Financial Meltdown it was all done by and for private industry, Summers, Geitner, Paulson, Greenspan, who by the way all have worked for Goldman Sachs corrupted policy by eliminating the Glass Steagel Act and set government policies to profit from the housing bubble, credit default swap fiasco. You need to read up outside of talking points and study little things like reality!
Me: LOL, contactjohn, the "Free Market" does not own government, big corporations own government. However, government is precisely what destroys the free market by doing anything other than upholding contracts, prosecuting fraud, injury, theft and ensuring repayment for damages done to property. The government is supposed to provide justice. So when big corporations go to lobby the government and create regulations that favor big corporations, they are actually destroying the free market in that process. A free market is a market without government intervention. Big corporations lobbying government to protect them, subsidize them and increase their profits are what is destroying the free market and creating all of our problems.
Me: "Uh that doesn't apply if there is negligence. And there was a lot of negligence here."
sbpuppet, perhaps you would like to explain how that diminishes the intellectual value of the post I made. It seems to me that you are attempting to find a petty difference that is irrelevant to the broader underlying point being made regarding the economic concept of moral hazard. I was attempting to explain why investment in the area of oil clean-up hasn't been minimal in the last few decades and you are talking about a detail regarding a current event.
http://www.independent.com/news/2010/jun/18/capps-gives-oil-execs-third-degree/
:eek:
Edit: I was tired last night, here's the conversation:
Title: Capps Gives Oil Execs the Third Degree
Asks Why Spill Cleanup Technology Has Not Improved in Decades
Comments:
Me: Why is she asking oil executives? Lois Capps needs to ask me why oil spill clean up technology has lagged, because I can give an intellectually honest answer.
The federal government capped liability for oil companies to pay for oil spills at $75 million. That is a ridiculously meager amount compared to their profits.
Let's brighten this up with an analogy. If the government capped the amount drivers were responsible for damages they do to other people's cars in an accident at $1,000, would anybody buy car insurance? Maybe, but the car insurance would only pay out a maximum of $1,000 so it would only cost probably $10 a month. This might sound fantastic to those who have high car insurance premiums, but what about everybody else? How do they benefit? Now they have to pay additional taxes to come up with all of the extra damages. Beyond that, the bigger problem would be that the government would be creating a moral hazard. Getting in an accident wouldn't be as big of a deal, although nobody wants to end up in the hospital so it wouldn't drastically change driving habits, most people would still drive relatively safe. So the oil companies are 'relatively safe' when they pump wells and transport oil.. but they don't have full responsibility for what happens, so there is no incentive to develop clean-up technology. Does Lois Capps honestly expect the oil executives to develop this stuff out of the goodness of their heart? Sorry Lois, that isn't happening. Now you give them a business reason to develop clean up technologies, full liability in oil spills, and you will see technology develop.
Lois Capps needs to learn about the magic of the free market. The same thing happened to our financial system in the recent collapse, government gave too many guarantees on loans and the Federal Reserve artificially lowered interest rates and single handedly created the housing bubble. A free market never would have allowed the housing bubble to occur in the first place, and there would actually be much less fraud.. although EVEN IN THE FREE MARKET fraud is still illegal, many people seem to think that free market means no rules. Contracts, theft and property damage are still prosecuted by the state in the free market.
sbpuppet: "The federal government capped liability for oil companies to pay for oil spills at $75 million. That is a ridiculously meager amount compared to their profits."
Uh that doesn't apply if there is negligence. And there was a lot of negligence here.
"Contracts, theft and property damage are still prosecuted by the state in the free market."
Agreed, but it has its limits when it comes to tragedy of the commons, google it.
I am happy that Capps made this guy squirm, thanks, keep it up and I'll vote for you again Lois! These oil booms are meant for PR only. Reality is, oil cleanup is still haphazard and it's all PR. Oil booms don't work, cleaning up birds doesn't work since best case is they die of oil toxicity. BP doesn't allow the media to see the bird cleanup. So far BP has only offered PR campaigns. Chew up these execs and spit 'em out... don't hold back, they deserve it.
contactjohn: And the magic of the "Free Market" is? The Free Market owns government! What part of that escapes the "Free Market" proponents who on the one hand blame government for ineptitude and then foster that government ineptitude with the revolving door of lobbyists, congress and corporate executives who are put in charge of regulatory bodies who then, write the regulations for their industries. Dear Lord when will the brainwashing stop!
Example: Congressman Joe Barton, apologist for the oil companies worked for Atlantic Richfield for 18 years before becoming a congressman. BP bought Arco and they are the ones funding Joe Barton's retirement. As far as the Financial Meltdown it was all done by and for private industry, Summers, Geitner, Paulson, Greenspan, who by the way all have worked for Goldman Sachs corrupted policy by eliminating the Glass Steagel Act and set government policies to profit from the housing bubble, credit default swap fiasco. You need to read up outside of talking points and study little things like reality!
Me: LOL, contactjohn, the "Free Market" does not own government, big corporations own government. However, government is precisely what destroys the free market by doing anything other than upholding contracts, prosecuting fraud, injury, theft and ensuring repayment for damages done to property. The government is supposed to provide justice. So when big corporations go to lobby the government and create regulations that favor big corporations, they are actually destroying the free market in that process. A free market is a market without government intervention. Big corporations lobbying government to protect them, subsidize them and increase their profits are what is destroying the free market and creating all of our problems.
Me: "Uh that doesn't apply if there is negligence. And there was a lot of negligence here."
sbpuppet, perhaps you would like to explain how that diminishes the intellectual value of the post I made. It seems to me that you are attempting to find a petty difference that is irrelevant to the broader underlying point being made regarding the economic concept of moral hazard. I was attempting to explain why investment in the area of oil clean-up hasn't been minimal in the last few decades and you are talking about a detail regarding a current event.