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Matt Collins
06-20-2010, 11:24 AM
Is West Virginia legally a state?

HOLLYWOOD
06-20-2010, 11:26 AM
Nope... another FAILing by Lincoln and his Cronies.

Aratus
06-20-2010, 11:32 AM
senator robert byrd thinks west virginia is a state...

Juan McCain
06-20-2010, 11:40 AM
http://www.wvculture.org/HiStory/journal_wvh/wvh24-4.html

Congressman Thaddeus Stevens in voting for the West Virginia statehood bill said bluntly that he was not under ". . . the delusion that we are admitting West Virginia in pursuance of any provision of the Constitution, . . . but under our absolute power which the laws of war gives us in the circumstances in which we are placed. I will not stultify myself by supposing that we have any warrant in the constitution for this proceeding."

akforme
06-20-2010, 12:19 PM
I know Ohio wasn't officially (by the letter of the law) a state until the 50's. Some screw up in paperwork.

jdmyprez_deo_vindice
06-20-2010, 12:29 PM
No West Virginia is a sham and should have been returned to Virginia. The largest part of that "state" did not even want to seceed from Virginia in the first place and when that joke of a war had drawn to a conclusion there was a strong push by many to be returned to Virginia. I find great irony that Lincoln and his administration went to war to crush the spirit of the right of secession yet they had no complaint with it when it suited their purposes. Not only that but for a new state or territory to be formed from an existing state or territory than the original state must approve it by a 3/4ths majority vote from their legislature (I might be off on that number but if memory serves me correctly that is the amount needed). Now Lincoln and the United States Government never recognized the C.S.A. as a legitimate government or so they say but by ignoring the laws that applied to states in the union as it concerned matters such as this they treated them as a foreign body thus confirming the fact that the C.S.A. was an independent nation they were invading and not a "rebellious region of the country". God I hate Lincoln... what a f'n scumbag.

TNforPaul45
06-20-2010, 12:31 PM
Wasn't West Virginia the last state to "ratify" the Income Tax? Isn't it the state that really didn't ratify it fully?

I'm too lazy to wikipedia it at this point haha!

Y

haaaylee
06-20-2010, 12:32 PM
Ask Thomas Woods. I guarantee you he knows . . .


OR:
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090605121110AA0AuG1
http://www.wvculture.org/history/journal_wvh/wvh30-1.html

Aratus
06-20-2010, 12:44 PM
Or does senator robert byrd reguard west virginia as being perhaps
the last medieval anglo-saxon and/or norman baron fiefdom ever???

BlackTerrel
06-20-2010, 01:26 PM
YouTube - Deliverance - Banjo Duel (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uzae_SqbmDE)

rich34
06-20-2010, 01:55 PM
Is West Virginia legally a state?

I'm from WV and don't know? They never taught us that in history class ...

As for statehood, hell yeah we'd argue we're a state. We're much different than Virginia.

Aratus
06-20-2010, 02:01 PM
rich34 --- have you thought of running for a public office?
senator byrd everntually comes up for re-election. i may
make quips about the man but i do respect his position.
sometimes senator byrd does not have a g.o.p opponent.

rich34
06-20-2010, 02:12 PM
rich34 --- have you thought of running for a public office?
senator byrd everntually comes up for re-election. i may
make quips about the man but i do respect his position.
sometimes senator byrd does not have a g.o.p opponent.

People have said I should because of my passion like so many of us, but realistically, no it would be awfully hard to raise money against Big Coal in this state. And even though I'm very Pro Coal simply by the concept of the free market I don't think a candidate would get much support from non subsidy believing citizen.

Aside from that I'm just a 31 year old state worker (IT support technician) married with a little boy trying to make it like everyone else.

MelissaWV
06-20-2010, 02:18 PM
Very original with the "Deliverance" reference. I'm sure it doesn't matter in the least that the movie is set in Georgia.

Part of me wants to correct people who have this moronic vision of Appalachia... and the rest of me thinks it'd be counterproductive. Perhaps the area remains so beautiful and accessible, and the people I met there so friendly and outgoing, precisely because those from outside the area decide to thumb their noses at the region and its people.

Ignorance isn't pretty, no matter who's wearing it.

erowe1
06-20-2010, 03:00 PM
Ignorance isn't pretty, no matter who's wearing it.

That is so true.

It reminds me of the time I got arrested in West Virginia for smuggling books into the state.

Fortunately, I got off on a technicality, since nobody in West Virginia could prove they were books.

Aratus
06-20-2010, 03:13 PM
rich34

yes...
big coal
is big coal.

jmdrake
06-20-2010, 08:31 PM
Is West Virginia legally a state?

If a state has the power to secede from the union (a power that Andrew Jackson squashed), then certainly a section of a state has the power to secede from the state. Part of Alabama seceded from Alabama too.

jmdrake
06-20-2010, 08:34 PM
No West Virginia is a sham and should have been returned to Virginia. The largest part of that "state" did not even want to seceed from Virginia in the first place and when that joke of a war had drawn to a conclusion there was a strong push by many to be returned to Virginia. I find great irony that Lincoln and his administration went to war to crush the spirit of the right of secession yet they had no complaint with it when it suited their purposes. Not only that but for a new state or territory to be formed from an existing state or territory than the original state must approve it by a 3/4ths majority vote from their legislature (I might be off on that number but if memory serves me correctly that is the amount needed). Now Lincoln and the United States Government never recognized the C.S.A. as a legitimate government or so they say but by ignoring the laws that applied to states in the union as it concerned matters such as this they treated them as a foreign body thus confirming the fact that the C.S.A. was an independent nation they were invading and not a "rebellious region of the country". God I hate Lincoln... what a f'n scumbag.

The part I bolded is in the constitution where exactly?

nate895
06-20-2010, 08:41 PM
If a state has the power to secede from the union (a power that Andrew Jackson squashed), then certainly a section of a state has the power to secede from the state. Part of Alabama seceded from Alabama too.

Not necessarily from a positive law perspective. It all depends on where ultimate sovereignty lies, and in the Confederate form of government we had under the Articles of Confederates and the first few years of our Constitution, sovereignty lied with the people of each individual state. You couldn't separate yourself from the people of your state without the permission of the rest of the state because then you'd have a non-sovereign group (i.e., the people of a county or multiple counties) seceding from a sovereign group (i.e., the people of the state). You can see this in how counties are created: by state charter. The made cannot overpower the maker. That is a powerful argument in favor of the positive legal right of secession: The states made the Union and each individual state had the power to accede to that Union or not, which means the Union was made by the individual states, which means the states can undo the Union individually.

osan
06-20-2010, 08:43 PM
YouTube - Deliverance - Banjo Duel (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uzae_SqbmDE)


What the hell is this? I will point out that this post does nothing to bolster your image as a credible adult.

nate895
06-20-2010, 08:44 PM
The part I bolded is in the constitution where exactly?

Article IV, Section 3, Clause A

New States may be admitted by the Congress into this Union; but no new States shall be formed or erected within the Jurisdiction of any other State; nor any State be formed by the Junction of two or more States, or parts of States, without the Consent of the Legislatures of the States concerned as well as of the Congress.

No reference to a specific number, but generally state constitutions have provisions that require some sort of super-majority to approve a measure like that.

Golding
06-20-2010, 08:57 PM
For the same reason, is Nevada a state?

jmdrake
06-20-2010, 09:03 PM
Not necessarily from a positive law perspective. It all depends on where ultimate sovereignty lies, and in the Confederate form of government we had under the Articles of Confederates and the first few years of our Constitution, sovereignty lied with the people of each individual state. You couldn't separate yourself from the people of your state without the permission of the rest of the state because then you'd have a non-sovereign group (i.e., the people of a county or multiple counties) seceding from a sovereign group (i.e., the people of the state). You can see this in how counties are created: by state charter. The made cannot overpower the maker. That is a powerful argument in favor of the positive legal right of secession: The states made the Union and each individual state had the power to accede to that Union or not, which means the Union was made by the individual states, which means the states can undo the Union individually.

If individuals are actually sovereign than a single person should be able to secede any time he wants without "approval" from the "state". Anyway, Andy Jackson put the kibosh on secession. Lincoln just sealed the deal. Andy would have if the south had been willing to call his bluff. (He wasn't bluffing).

Matt Collins
06-20-2010, 09:03 PM
For the same reason, is Nevada a state?
Yes Nevada is essentially in the same situation.


If a state has the power to secede from the union (a power that Andrew Jackson squashed), then certainly a section of a state has the power to secede from the state. Part of Alabama seceded from Alabama too.

Yes of course people have a right to secede from an oppressive government. However this instance of the arbitrary creation of WV was a political ploy by Lincoln and the Republicans at the time to gain more votes in Congress.

nate895
06-20-2010, 09:12 PM
If individuals are actually sovereign than a single person should be able to secede any time he wants without "approval" from the "state". Anyway, Andy Jackson put the kibosh on secession. Lincoln just sealed the deal. Andy would have if the south had been willing to call his bluff. (He wasn't bluffing).

Why must their be a dichotomy between individual sovereignty and state sovereignty? Each are sovereign within their own spheres. What you're espousing is totalitarianism of another form: The individual possesses the totality of sovereignty as opposed to the state, church, or other entity. In that situation every man becomes a law unto himself. However, with sphere sovereignty all institutions in society possess sovereignty over their own sphere and the law is not up to the individual, the state, the church, the family, etc., but rather is the foundation for why each has any power whatsoever.

jmdrake
06-20-2010, 09:21 PM
Why must their be a dichotomy between individual sovereignty and state sovereignty? Each are sovereign within their own spheres. What you're espousing is totalitarianism of another form: The individual possesses the totality of sovereignty as opposed to the state, church, or other entity. In that situation every man becomes a law unto himself. However, with sphere sovereignty all institutions in society possess sovereignty over their own sphere and the law is not up to the individual, the state, the church, the family, etc., but rather is the foundation for why each has any power whatsoever.

What I'm espousing is reality. States are just as much an artificial concept as the federal government. You mentioned churches. What is a church but a group of individuals that choose to follow certain dogma? How big does the group of individuals have to be before they can be a "church"? The people who formed WV were a group of individuals. The territory voted 30 to 17 against secession from the union. Everyone here acts like "evil Lincoln" came riding in at midnight secretly tricking people into not wanting to be a part of "wonderful Virginia". Well, maybe, just maybe, there were significant numbers of people that thought Virginia was tyrannical as well. I know that to be a fact for how people in Northern Alabama viewed the state of Alabama in general during the civil war. They had no more interest in fighting the "rich planters war" against they North as some people today want to fight an "oil man's" war. When they weren't allowed to peaceably leave they took up arms against the rest of the south and became some of Sherman's best shock troops. The U.S. rebelled against Great Britain. The south seceded from the Union. Some areas of the south seceded (or "rebelled" if you prefer that term) against the rest of the south. Everyone was asserting their free will through the right of conquest. No side really any better than the other.

Andrew-Austin
06-20-2010, 09:25 PM
Is West Virginia legally a state?

What a preposterous question. Who cares? I thought we were for decentralization here. We should have about a hundred more states if you ask me.



Yes of course people have a right to secede from an oppressive government. However this instance of the arbitrary creation of WV was a political ploy by Lincoln and the Republicans at the time to gain more votes in Congress.

Well we can't do anything about that now seeing as how we lack a time machine.

Does not really matter today anyways.

Its an interesting historical footnote I guess, thats about it.

Matt Collins
06-20-2010, 09:31 PM
Why must their be a dichotomy between individual sovereignty and state sovereignty? Each are sovereign within their own spheres. Brilliant answer. I have been figuring out a way to say this for a while now and I think you just put it eloquently into words that I was looking for.


But to play devil's advocate one definition of sovereignty is "exercising supreme authority". He can both an individual and a State be supremely authoritative at the same time?


.

tasteless
06-20-2010, 09:50 PM
I know Ohio wasn't officially (by the letter of the law) a state until the 50's. Some screw up in paperwork.


skip to 1:32 (the intro is about the income tax if you wanna watch that)

YouTube - Alan Keyes on the income tax / faith-based charities (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7MoiyyLPclc#t=1m32s)

nate895
06-20-2010, 10:00 PM
Brilliant answer. I have been figuring out a way to say this for a while now and I think you just put it eloquently into words that I was looking for.


But to play devil's advocate one definition of sovereignty is "exercising supreme authority". He can both an individual and a State be supremely authoritative at the same time?


.

They aren't really in my view. My view is similar to that of Abraham Kuyper. God is the real sovereign, but He reigns on earth through a plurality of institutions. They are not sovereign, they are simply delegated God's sovereignty, who can always (and has in the past, and continues to do so in the present) rescind His delegation of authority to manifestations of that institution.

nate895
06-20-2010, 10:11 PM
What I'm espousing is reality.

Saying it doesn't make it so.


States are just as much an artificial concept as the federal government. You mentioned churches. What is a church but a group of individuals that choose to follow certain dogma? How big does the group of individuals have to be before they can be a "church"? The people who formed WV were a group of individuals. The territory voted 30 to 17 against secession from the union. Everyone here acts like "evil Lincoln" came riding in at midnight secretly tricking people into not wanting to be a part of "wonderful Virginia". Well, maybe, just maybe, there were significant numbers of people that thought Virginia was tyrannical as well. I know that to be a fact for how people in Northern Alabama viewed the state of Alabama in general during the civil war. They had no more interest in fighting the "rich planters war" against they North as some people today want to fight an "oil man's" war. When they weren't allowed to peaceably leave they took up arms against the rest of the south and became some of Sherman's best shock troops. The U.S. rebelled against Great Britain. The south seceded from the Union. Some areas of the south seceded (or "rebelled" if you prefer that term) against the rest of the south. Everyone was asserting their free will through the right of conquest. No side really any better than the other.

You are obviously coming at this from a secular point-of-view. The Church isn't just a bunch of people who get together who believe similar stuff about religion. The Church is the body and bride of Christ, the Son of the Living God. It is an organic entity that always has existed, and will always exist, and was decreed to exist in eternity. There is no destroying the Church. The gates of hell shall not prevail against it (Matthew 16:18).

jmdrake
06-20-2010, 10:15 PM
They aren't really in my view. My view is similar to that of Abraham Kuyper. God is the real sovereign, but He reigns on earth through a plurality of institutions. They are not sovereign, they are simply delegated God's sovereignty, who can always (and has in the past, and continues to do so in the present) rescind His delegation of authority to manifestations of that institution.

God is supreme sovereign as in 1 Cor 6:19 where your even your body is not your own? Hmmm....Matt, where have you heard that before. ;)

Back to the "concentric spheres of sovereignty", one might consider the federal government just one more sphere. That was Andrew Jackson's view apparently. (I know. Andrew Jackson gets written out of history so that southerners can concentrate on the evil Lincoln).

jmdrake
06-20-2010, 10:24 PM
Saying it doesn't make it so.

You're claiming I'm "espousing" what things I'm not espousing doesn't make that so.



You are obviously coming at this from a secular point-of-view.


Not at all. Jesus said "where to or three are gathered in my name I am in the midst of them".



The Church isn't just a bunch of people who get together who believe similar stuff about religion.


I see you're problem now. You are confusing the term A church with the term THE church. The Christian church isn't the only church in the world. A budhist church is a church. A Muslim church is a church. There's even a church of Satan. You twisting the word "church" to mean "Christian church" when that simply is not reality. Jesus said "Upon this rock I will build My church". The obvious truth there is that there are churches that are not His.



The Church is the body and bride of Christ, the Son of the Living God. It is an organic entity that always has existed, and will always exist, and was decreed to exist in eternity. There is no destroying the Church. The gates of hell shall not prevail against it (Matthew 16:18).

The above quote in "reality".

18And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Now here's another quote from Jesus.


John 14:2
In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Do you think that the only house that exist is the house in heaven? Because that's the logic your using. But the correct reading of the passage is that Jesus was identifying a particular house just like he was identifying a particular church. And I won't insult you by saying you are coming from a "secular point of view".

jmdrake
06-20-2010, 10:26 PM
What a preposterous question. Who cares? I thought we were for decentralization here. We should have about a hundred more states if you ask me.



Well we can't do anything about that now seeing as how we lack a time machine.

Does not really matter today anyways.

Its an interesting historical footnote I guess, thats about it.

This. But for some reason the events of nearly 150 years ago are more important to some than the events from 9 years ago. One set of messages cannot be "mixed". The other can.

nate895
06-20-2010, 10:28 PM
God is supreme sovereign as in 1 Cor 6:19 where your even your body is not your own? Hmmm....Matt, where have you heard that before. ;)

Back to the "concentric spheres of sovereignty", one might consider the federal government just one more sphere. That was Andrew Jackson's view apparently. (I know. Andrew Jackson gets written out of history so that southerners can concentrate on the evil Lincoln).

For one thing, even though I have tremendous respect for the man, I still think Jackson was a total idiot/psychopath (cool psycho, not bad psycho). As for the Feds being another sphere, that would be bunk. The Feds are simply a manifestation of the state sphere, which has been delegated certain powers of the sword that the state has.

BlackTerrel
06-20-2010, 10:32 PM
What the hell is this? I will point out that this post does nothing to bolster your image as a credible adult.

I lived in Richmond, VA for a couple years and people used to always playfully joke West Virginia. Anyway I apologize for that.

Although to be fair I never claimed to be a credible adult.

jmdrake
06-20-2010, 10:36 PM
For one thing, even though I have tremendous respect for the man, I still think Jackson was a total idiot/psychopath (cool psycho, not bad psycho). As for the Feds being another sphere, that would be bunk. The Feds are simply a manifestation of the state sphere, which has been delegated certain powers of the sword that the state has.

States are delegated powers (they have constitutions as well) and the federal government was delegated powers. The powers delegated the federal government are the "supreme law of the land" according to Article VI. The problem is the federal government has taken power not delegated.

Matt Collins
06-20-2010, 10:47 PM
Hmmm....Matt, where have you heard that before. ;)heh heh heh ;)

Promontorium
06-21-2010, 02:27 AM
States are even more arbitrary than the federal goverment. I find this state-first philosophy silly beyond measure. You don't argue for individual rights, you don't argue for family, nor social, nor city, nope. You argue for " The Middle Man's" rights. Not cultural, not religious, not race, or species, or continental, and national be damned! The Middle Man! Yes! That arbitrary border that amounts to a bowl full of other ingredients. You hate the pot, and you sacrifice the individual ingredients, it's the bowl for you, that's where your entire universal philosophical foundation lies. Go hug an assistant manager. Go hug the guy that tells the vending machine stocker where to go. Absolutely silly.

Aratus
06-21-2010, 09:14 AM
the Vampire Diaries are being filmed in georgia and are said to transpire in virginia.
this transposing of georgia for west virginia let alone virginia! i remember SNL's take-off
skit the dueling brandos. many W.Va people dislike the mass media city~fied "hillbilly" slam.

MelissaWV
06-21-2010, 09:24 AM
the Vampire Diaries are being filmed in georgia and are said to transpire in virginia.
this transposing of georgia for west virginia let alone virginia! i remember SNL's take-off
skit the dueling brandos. many W.Va people dislike the mass media city~fied "hillbilly" slam.

Agreed, but like I said, it does have benefits. If people actually knew how beautiful, inexpensive, and friendly West Virginia was, they'd turn it into a series of urban cesspools, and the parks/waterways would become even more polluted than the few resident and tourist campers make them.

http://www.westvirginiabirthcertificate.com/westvirginia.jpg

Boo hoo. Not a 50-story building in sight.

MelissaWV
06-21-2010, 09:25 AM
Incidentally, leave it up to RPFs to turn this into a pseudo-religious debate.