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Brian4Liberty
06-17-2010, 01:19 PM
Sometimes the "free-market" doesn't function efficiently...


http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Outofwork-job-applicants-told-cnnm-3498252371.html?x=0

Out-of-work job applicants told unemployed need not apply

Chris Isidore, senior writer, On Wednesday June 16, 2010, 4:26 am EDT

The last thing someone who is unemployed needs to be told is that they shouldn't even apply for the limited number of job openings that are available. But some companies and recruiters are doing just that.

Employment experts say they believe companies are increasingly interested only in applicants who already have a job.

"I think it is more prevalent than it used to be," said Rich Thompson, vice president of learning and performance for Adecco Group North America, the world's largest staffing firm. "I don't have hard numbers, but three out of the last four conversations I've had about openings, this requirement was brought up."

Some job postings include restrictions such as "unemployed candidates will not be considered" or "must be currently employed." Those explicit limitations have occasionally been removed from listings when an employer or recruiter is questioned by the media though.

That's what happened with numerous listings for grocery store managers throughout the Southeast posted by a South Carolina recruiter, Latro Consulting.

After CNNMoney called seeking comments on the listings last week, the restriction against unemployed candidates being considered came down. Latro Consulting refused to comment when contacted.

Sony Ericsson, a global phone manufacturer that was hiring for a new Georgia facility, also removed a similar restriction after local reporters wrote about it. According to reports, a Sony Ericsson spokesperson said that a mistake had been made.

But even if companies don't spell out in a job listing that they won't consider someone who currently doesn't have a job, experts said that unemployed applicants are typically ruled out right off the bat.

"Most executive recruiters won't look at a candidate unless they have a job, even if they don't like to admit to it," said Lisa Chenofsky Singer, a human resources consultant from Millburn, NJ, specializing in media and publishing jobs.

She said when she proposes candidates for openings, the first question she is often asked by a recruiter is if they currently have a job. If the answer is no, she's typically told the unemployed candidate won't be interviewed.

"They think you must have been laid off for performance issues," she said, adding that this is a "myth" in a time of high unemployment.

It is not against the law for companies to exclude the unemployed when trying to fill positions, but Judy Conti, a lobbyist for the National Employment Law Project, said the practice is a bad one.

"Making that kind of automatic cut is senseless; you could be missing out on the best person of all," she said. "There are millions of people who are unemployed through no fault of their own. If an employer feels that the best qualified are the ones already working, they have no appreciation of the crisis we're in right now."

Conti added that firms that hire unemployed job seekers could also benefit from a recently-passed tax break that essentially exempts them from paying the 6.2% of the new hire's wages in Social Security taxes for the rest of this year.

Thompson said he also thinks ruling out the unemployed is a bad idea. But he said that part of the problem is that recruiters and human resource departments are being overwhelmed with applications for any job opening that is posted. So they're looking for any short-cuts to get the list of applicants to consider down to a more manageable size.

"It's a tough process to determine which unemployed applicants were laid off even though they brought value to their company and which ones had performance issues," he said. "I understand the notion. But there's the top x percent of unemployed candidates who are very viable and very valuable. You just have to do the work to find them."

Travlyr
06-17-2010, 01:34 PM
I call B.S.

Please don't have any delusions about free markets. None of us has had the pleasure of experiencing the free markets. All markets are under the control of monetary policy. You will be able to determine that free markets exist when, and only when, commodity prices fluctuate 24/7/365. Until then, you are living in a controlled society. The markets, and consequently production, are controlled by the money changers, have been controlled for a long time, and the proof... they take evenings and Christian holidays off.

noxagol
06-17-2010, 01:38 PM
One reason this would be is because ex-employers, afaik and have been told by managers, are not allowed to say anything negative about people that have worked for them in the past if contacted as a reference, according to the law (probably an effort to increase employment of unemployed persons). The logical choice is then to assume that all unemployed people were fired because they are crap employees. Better to not hire a good employee than to hire a bad one.

gls
06-17-2010, 01:46 PM
Sometimes the "free-market" doesn't function efficiently...

Actually the market is functioning very efficiently here. Of course people with jobs will get priority when there is a glut of applicants, especially when it comes to executive-level positions. It proves that even during tough times their current employer still finds them valuable enough to keep on. It's a useful differentiator when all else is equal.

brandon
06-17-2010, 02:09 PM
Actually the market is functioning very efficiently here. Of course people with jobs will get priority when there is a glut of applicants, especially when it comes to executive-level positions. It proves that even during tough times their current employer still finds them valuable enough to keep on. It's a useful differentiator when all else is equal.

Yep. If I was an employer I would do the same thing. The free market is working fine in this respect.

OP, would you support legislation telling employers they can't "discriminate" based on a job applicant's current job status?

Brian4Liberty
06-17-2010, 02:18 PM
The "free-market" theory is somewhat based on Darwinism. The smart and efficient thrive, the weak die. In this case, a dogma has been established which intentionally overlooks people who very well may be good employees. This is common in the business world. It includes other group-think mantras such as "this group is cheaper", "this group is smarter", "this group works harder", etc.

Especially in times of high unemployment and industries shutting down or consolidating, this is a foolish and inefficient way for business and the country to operate. There are a lot of good people unemployed.

- If buying people is like buying stocks, then there are often great companies and great people that are bargain buys. It's smart to take a look at them. A smart company can get some good employees right now, while the majority of companies are overlooking them based on ignorant dogma.

- These same companies will go to government looking for favors, complaining that they can't find any employees. You can't find what you reflexively throw away. It increase the corporatist/government collective, and probably corporate welfare.

- Intentionally leaving people unemployed perpetuates and grows the welfare state.

- Employees can certainly be hired on a short term-contract as a "test". There are no guarantees no matter how good a resume and reference (or ignorant dogma) makes a potential employee look.

Travlyr
06-17-2010, 02:21 PM
Personally, I don't want a job. I want opportunity.

Brian4Liberty
06-17-2010, 02:32 PM
Yep. If I was an employer I would do the same thing. The free market is working fine in this respect.

OP, would you support legislation telling employers they can't "discriminate" based on a job applicant's current job status?

I would prefer legislation telling employers that you aren't getting any more favors from government! And I don't want hear anything about "we can't find people to hire" when they are throwing away stacks of resumes.

Considering the state of our economy and our current government, it wouldn't be surprising to get a law telling employers that they have to hire unemployed people first. On second thought, that would be the rhetoric, but that actual law would be written by these companies, and would once again result in some kind of favoritism or government kickback to them.

Live_Free_Or_Die
06-17-2010, 03:43 PM
In a free market the unemployed would put these companies out of business.

Presently they don't have to worry about competing with the unemployed because the guns of government will go tax and fine the shit out of anyone who tries to get any business off the ground without paying government for the privilege or lacking licenses.

brandon
06-17-2010, 04:30 PM
The "free-market" theory is somewhat based on Darwinism. The smart and efficient thrive, the weak die. In this case, a dogma has been established which intentionally overlooks people who very well may be good employees. This is common in the business world. It includes other group-think mantras such as "this group is cheaper", "this group is smarter", "this group works harder", etc.


Not at all. You have a very skewed view of capitalism. Capitalism has done more to help the poor "weak" person than anything in history. Everyone benefits from increased production and the increased efficiency that comes along with capitalism.

brandon
06-17-2010, 04:32 PM
Unemployed people are unemployed because they have not been able to find demand for their skillset. It is no ones fault but their own.

Kregisen
06-17-2010, 04:42 PM
I don't see what the big deal is here.....if you're a Libertarian (I thought everyone here was? I guess there are those who arent) you believe businesses have the freedom to associate with whomever they wish.

Obviously if a company would rather hire someone who is employed, that's their derogative.

Also, using common sense even if an employers only hired employed people, then who's gonna take the old jobs of the people?

The unemployed.

What's the big deal here? Why is this an issue at all?

Travlyr
06-17-2010, 04:43 PM
Unemployed people are unemployed because they have not been able to find demand for their skillset. It is no ones fault but their own.

Okay... would you be willing to advance some ideas on skillsets that are currently increasing in demand... other than government.

Live_Free_Or_Die
06-17-2010, 04:56 PM
Unemployed people are unemployed because they have not been able to find demand for their skillset. It is no ones fault but their own.

I would agree with you in a free market but in the crony capitalism market it's more like this:

YouTube - Unemployed (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJLUG889ccM)

brandon
06-17-2010, 04:59 PM
Okay... would you be willing to advance some ideas on skillsets that are currently increasing in demand... other than government.

I don't know which skillsets are in demand. I only know about my own...and there are plenty of jobs available. Although I do suspect employers would be hesitant to hire me if I was currently unemployed.

MelissaWV
06-17-2010, 05:04 PM
Okay... would you be willing to advance some ideas on skillsets that are currently increasing in demand... other than government.

:rolleyes: Pick a city, any city, and look at the "help wanted" section of the major newspaper. Have a gander at online job sites. Do you see ANY area with zero openings? Please consider, additionally, that a large number of jobs do not advertise in these ways, and are still open.

A large number of them are in healthcare, though that is going to be "Government" soon enough. Insurance is also hiring in nearly every city. Bank-related jobs are incredibly popular in some areas. There are assorted mom & pop jobs looking for applicants.

The best jobs, of course, are self-made. Those are the opportunities an earlier poster talked about. Think about what you like doing, and what the needs of your community (or the online community at large) are. Is there some way you can capitalize from the intersection of these two things? There's someone on these boards who is into pest control... and I don't just mean insects lol

Most of the openings remain open because people think they're too good to do the job, or they simply aren't prepared. It's seldom because the employer is too picky. Even this (discrimination based on job status) isn't really "too picky" in my opinion. When you have too many applicants, you narrow them down. This might be done by education, employment status, location (companies do not want to help with moving expenses, etc., anymore), and the overall impression the resume makes, or any of two dozen other things the company makes up. That's fine. They're looking for a specific person to fill the position, and if their criteria are counterproductive, that will show itself rapidly in the quality of employee they wind up hiring.

Travlyr
06-17-2010, 05:07 PM
Unemployed people are unemployed because they have not been able to find demand for their skillset. It is no ones fault but their own.

Small Business Expenses: State Contractor License, City Business License, Building Permit, Business Insurance, Property Insurance, Health Insurance, Auto Insurance, Unemployment Compensation, Worker's Compensation, Federal Taxes, State Taxes, Property Taxes, FICA, SSI, Medicare, OSHA, EPA, ADA...

MelissaWV
06-17-2010, 05:09 PM
Small Business Expenses: State Contractor License, City Business License, Building Permit, Business Insurance, Property Insurance, Health Insurance, Auto Insurance, Unemployment Compensation, Worker's Compensation, Federal Taxes, State Taxes, Property Taxes, FICA, SSI, Medicare, OSHA, EPA, ADA...

Phew that is a heck of a list! Glad I don't have to deal with over half of those.

brandon
06-17-2010, 05:11 PM
Small Business Expenses: State Contractor License, City Business License, Building Permit, Business Insurance, Property Insurance, Health Insurance, Auto Insurance, Unemployment Compensation, Worker's Compensation, Federal Taxes, State Taxes, Property Taxes, FICA, SSI, Medicare, OSHA, EPA, ADA...

Right. These are all things that stifle demand for employees. You just gotta work around it.

Travlyr
06-17-2010, 05:15 PM
Right. These are all things that stifle demand for employees. You just gotta work around it.

Or fight for freedom and laissez-faire free-market capitalism. :)

Icymudpuppy
06-17-2010, 07:02 PM
:
The best jobs, of course, are self-made. Those are the opportunities an earlier poster talked about. Think about what you like doing, and what the needs of your community (or the online community at large) are. Is there some way you can capitalize from the intersection of these two things? There's someone on these boards who is into pest control... and I don't just mean insects lol
.

My ears are burning.

Anyway, as an employer, I have found that the best employees aren't the unemployed. They are the people who would rather work at below their skill level flipping burgers than be unemployed and collecting a government check.

Two applicants:

1. Used to work as a manager at company X for $40/hr. Unemployed for 22 months.
2. Used to work as assistant manager also at company X under applicant 1, for $30/hr. Currently working as Janitor at the Mall for $9/hr.

Who am I going to hire. Why applicant two of course. He doesn't whine about being laid off, he gets off his ass, gets a job though not a good one, and keeps looking for something better. That is Natural Selection. Without government assistance, Applicant 1 would have starved already, Applicant 2 would have cut back and lived.

Brian4Liberty
06-18-2010, 12:10 PM
Small Business Expenses: State Contractor License, City Business License, Building Permit, Business Insurance, Property Insurance, Health Insurance, Auto Insurance, Unemployment Compensation, Worker's Compensation, Federal Taxes, State Taxes, Property Taxes, FICA, SSI, Medicare, OSHA, EPA, ADA...

You forgot: Liability insurance, Errors and omissions insurance, Fire insurance, Accountant, Tax person, Lawyer, Advertising, Warehouse/workshop/Office space, Incorporation costs, State Corporation fees...

Brian4Liberty
06-18-2010, 12:26 PM
Also, using common sense even if an employers only hired employed people, then who's gonna take the old jobs of the people?

The unemployed.




- These same companies will go to government looking for favors, complaining that they can't find any employees. You can't find what you reflexively throw away. It increase the corporatist/government collective, and probably corporate welfare.

- Intentionally leaving people unemployed perpetuates and grows the welfare state.


In the same breath that big companies say that they have too many applicants and have to automatically bypass the unemployed, they also claim that they can't find any Americans to do the job. The reality is that Americans have remained unemployed and imported labor (legal and illegal) has taken many jobs. This leaves Americans on the government dole. Is it a priority to get Americans working and end the welfare state?

Cowlesy
06-18-2010, 12:41 PM
"They think you must have been laid off for performance issues," she said, adding that this is a "myth" in a time of high unemployment.


Yep

Travlyr
06-18-2010, 04:49 PM
Originally Posted by Travlyr View Post
Small Business Expenses: State Contractor License, City Business License, Building Permit, Business Insurance, Property Insurance, Health Insurance, Auto Insurance, Unemployment Compensation, Worker's Compensation, Federal Taxes, State Taxes, Property Taxes, FICA, SSI, Medicare, OSHA, EPA, ADA...


You forgot: Liability insurance, Errors and omissions insurance, Fire insurance, Accountant, Tax person, Lawyer, Advertising, Warehouse/workshop/Office space, Incorporation costs, State Corporation fees...

I did forget those... and I'm sure that there are more... like Dues, Subscriptions, Inspections, more regulatory agencies... and it goes on and on...

Damn... I long for free markets!

LibForestPaul
06-18-2010, 05:54 PM
- These same companies will go to government looking for favors, complaining that they can't find any employees. You can't find what you reflexively throw away. It increase the corporatist/government collective, and probably corporate welfare.

- Intentionally leaving people unemployed perpetuates and grows the welfare state.


H1B visas
"Yes we interviewed, but no candidate met our criteria. We need foreign workers to stay 'competitive'."

LibForestPaul
06-18-2010, 05:55 PM
unemployed people are unemployed because they have not been able to find demand for their skillset. It is no ones fault but their own.

lol hahahahaha

LibForestPaul
06-18-2010, 05:56 PM
:rolleyes: Pick a city, any city, and look at the "help wanted" section of the major newspaper. Have a gander at online job sites. Do you see ANY area with zero openings? Please consider, additionally, that a large number of jobs do not advertise in these ways, and are still open.

Again, as stated,in a free market , your statement is true. In this countries great Corporatism, companies routinely run faux ads. Ads they have no intention of fulfilling with domestic labor.

Brian4Liberty
06-18-2010, 06:26 PM
Again, as stated,in a free market , your statement is true. In this countries great Corporatism, companies routinely run faux ads. Ads they have no intention of fulfilling with domestic labor.

True. I had momentarily forgotten about all of the false CYA ads that big companies run...