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View Full Version : Utah to use firing squad in execution tonight




Matt Collins
06-17-2010, 12:06 PM
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jcG2jswjiPsecYqOzl7rOOqwVE6AD9GD5LO00

Matt Collins
06-17-2010, 12:07 PM
Not to get too morbid but I would think that lethal injection would be the most humane way of doing it (although I realize the subject requested the firing squad).

RonPaulwillWin
06-17-2010, 12:23 PM
Dude has some balls.

messana
06-17-2010, 12:24 PM
Utah can do what they want.

FrankRep
06-17-2010, 12:39 PM
Gardner politely told a judge, "I would like the firing squad, please."


Utah didn't choose firing squad, the dude did. :rolleyes:

Original_Intent
06-17-2010, 12:45 PM
I don't see why the frowny face. The guy does not contest whether he was guilty or not but merely says he is a changed man.

I truly hope that is the case. And I also think there are better ways of dealing with capital criminals rather than killing them.

But I also have to say, if I were a guilty convicted criminal and was given the choice between what I consider "fair" and the death penalty....I'd probably take the death penalty.

I've got no personal animosity towards this guy. Justice is going to be done, and if that makes me a barabarian to any bleeding hearts, so be it.

And yes, I know that Ron Paul opposes the death penalty.

Southron
06-17-2010, 12:49 PM
Who wants to live in prison for the rest his life anyway?

Matt Collins
06-17-2010, 12:54 PM
Utah didn't choose firing squad, the dude did. :rolleyes:
Of course, but I still think that firing squad is an inhumane way of doing it.

fisharmor
06-17-2010, 12:57 PM
Killing this man prevents nothing, solves nothing, reinstates nothing, remunerates nothing.
All it does is exact revenge - revenge which the family doesn't want.

Edit: If I had the choice in how I had to die, I'd take the firing squad over the needle, any day.

Slutter McGee
06-17-2010, 12:58 PM
I've got no personal animosity towards this guy. Justice is going to be done, and if that makes me a barabarian to any bleeding hearts, so be it.

And yes, I know that Ron Paul opposes the death penalty.

You aren't the only person who does not oppose the death penalty. I think death can be representative of justice. And the death penalty is one of the few things Ron Paul has changed his mind on, but not because it is fundamentally incompatible with liberty, but because he believes it is incompatible due to the potential of mistakes.

Don't really agree with that so much, but I can respect the argument.

So don't worry about it.

Sincerely,

Slutter McGee

Vessol
06-17-2010, 01:02 PM
Killing this man prevents nothing, solves nothing, reinstates nothing, remunerates nothing.
All it does is exact revenge - revenge which the family doesn't want.

Edit: If I had the choice in how I had to die, I'd take the firing squad over the needle, any day.

Agreed. Say no to State-legalized killing.

Also agreed that I would choose a bullet to the heart any day over a needle.

catdd
06-17-2010, 01:08 PM
I wonder why they don't put a bullet in the head at close range rather than risk a miss at the heart? That's the preferred method in some countries.

RyanRSheets
06-17-2010, 01:08 PM
Really tragic to read about the guy's past. Something is fundamentally wrong with our justice system when we are willing to execute someone who seems to have finally started to turn around. Who knows if he's just faking it, but I am much more in favor of reform than revenge.

Matt Collins
06-17-2010, 01:09 PM
Also agreed that I would choose a bullet to the heart any day over a needle.You won't feel anything with a needle :rolleyes:

RyanRSheets
06-17-2010, 01:10 PM
I wonder why they don't put a bullet in the head at close range rather than risk a miss at the heart? That's the preferred method in some countries.

They probably don't want to put anyone through that trauma. The article says they will fire from behind a wall, possibly to detach them from the execution as much as possible.

Vessol
06-17-2010, 01:12 PM
You won't feel anything with a needle :rolleyes:

I know. I've just never liked needles and don't like the idea of being injected, strapped down and waiting to die.

Slutter McGee
06-17-2010, 01:15 PM
Really tragic to read about the guy's past. Something is fundamentally wrong with our justice system when we are willing to execute someone who seems to have finally started to turn around. Who knows if he's just faking it, but I am much more in favor of reform than revenge.


http://amarillo.com/stories/102804/new_463916.shtml


Little Audra Reeves still visits Robert Anderson now and then in his death row prison cell. And then he wakes up in a cold, damp sweat.
But now Anderson wants to put an end to his nightmares.

Anderson, convicted in 1993 of capital murder in the slaying of the 5-year-old child, told a federal magistrate Wednesday he wants to abandon further appeals and be executed......


"After abusing the victim, he proceeded to kill her by various tortuous means, including choking her, stabbing her with a paring knife and a barbecue fork (bending them both), slashing her throat, and beating her with his hand, a pipe and a wooden stool," the judge's recommendation says.

Anderson told investigators he stuffed the girl into a Styrofoam cooler, but she tried to crawl out. He persuaded her to take a bath to clean the blood off her battered body. Audra, according to court records, made a final plea for her life.

"Why are you doing this? I love you," she asked Anderson. Anderson turned up his stereo to silence Audra's screams and drowned her in the bathtub, according to state and federal court records.

In his recommendation to deny Anderson's appeal, Averitte cited young Audra's appeal for mercy and the brutal crimes committed against her.

"His persistence in carrying out this assault and murder over a period of at least 45 minutes, leaving no major part of her body that did not sustain wounds, and undaunted by a plea for mercy, would support a finding of sufficient aggravation, in and of itself, to support imposition of the death penalty," Averitte said.

But he was so sorry.....we should reform him. Because nobody deserves to die by the state.

Glad they executed this fucker few years ago. It makes me happier that he is dead. Revenege...I call it justice. Different case sure. Same logic.

Sincerely,

Slutter McGee

Edit: Oh yeah. I was 8 when this happened. My sister was 5. And my dad..he was the lead prosecutor. Somebody tell me that this man didn't deserve to die.

Matt Collins
06-17-2010, 01:17 PM
I know. I've just never liked needles and don't like the idea of being injected, strapped down and waiting to die.
I don't think anyone would. But at least it would (should be) painless.

catdd
06-17-2010, 01:20 PM
I just wouldn't trust these guys shooting at my heart from a distance, too many things can go wrong.

Jordan
06-17-2010, 01:21 PM
I thought about this for about 15 seconds, and with the current conditions, I'd probably pick the firing squad too.

Worst that happens, obviously, is that you die. Best that happens is that the actors of the state realize the disgusting act of killing someone. Who knows, maybe they might get a lesson on why they should be more careful with firearms in day to day LEO shit.

MN Patriot
06-17-2010, 01:26 PM
Killing this man prevents nothing, solves nothing, reinstates nothing, remunerates nothing.
All it does is exact revenge - revenge which the family doesn't want.

Edit: If I had the choice in how I had to die, I'd take the firing squad over the needle, any day.

Executing murderers shows people the consequences of murdering someone. If all a person gets is life in prison with a roof and 3 meals a day, murder ain't such a bad thing to do.

Since libertarians want voluntary taxation and are opposed to the death penalty, then they should be the first to contribute to the Support a Murderer For Life Fund.

Matt Collins
06-17-2010, 01:26 PM
Worst that happens, obviously, is that you die.Actually worse that could happen is that you don't die immediately and you sit there gasping for breath or waiting to bleed out or don't become unconcious for several minutes, or a bullet hits your spinal chord and you are paralyzed for a few minutes etc.

There is a lot that can go wrong with an execution. That's why I think injection is the safest bet.

Jordan
06-17-2010, 01:30 PM
Actually worse that could happen is that you don't die immediately and you sit there gasping for breath or waiting to bleed out or don't become unconcious for several minutes, or a bullet hits your spinal chord and you are paralyzed for a few minutes etc.

There is a lot that can go wrong with an execution. That's why I think injection is the safest bet.

I don't know. I've always been one of those people that thought if at the end you're not going to remember anything, those 10-15 seconds of pain are really nothing.

Whatever, though. To each their own. Five shots, four of which are live ammunition and one blank (so the firing squad can have at least some doubt they actually killed someone) from 20 feet should be sufficient.

ChaosControl
06-17-2010, 01:46 PM
Meh, I don't see the big deal.

noxagol
06-17-2010, 01:47 PM
I don't know. I've always been one of those people that thought if at the end you're not going to remember anything, those 10-15 seconds of pain are really nothing.

Whatever, though. To each their own. Five shots, four of which are live ammunition and one blank (so the firing squad can have at least some doubt they actually killed someone) from 20 feet should be sufficient.

Actually, I think its the other way around. Everyone but one guy has blanks, so each person can think to himself/herself that they didn't actually kill the guy.

And as far as state execution, I have no qualms with it, especially in this case. The guy wanted to die, its his life, so let him end it how he sees fit. What I do have a problem with is the accuracy with which the government convicts the right guy, which is pretty abysmal.

I think in a proper society, the death penalty would still be used, probably more so.

Original_Intent
06-17-2010, 02:06 PM
No, only one guy has blanks.

fisharmor
06-17-2010, 02:10 PM
Executing murderers shows people the consequences of murdering someone. If all a person gets is life in prison with a roof and 3 meals a day, murder ain't such a bad thing to do.

Straw man... I didn't say anything depicting a life of relative leisure, and I'm pretty sure Vessol wouldn't, either.
Also, FBI figures I run into show that in 2004, 37.4% of homicides went uncleared (meaning there was no conviction).
Given that the overwhelming majority of the other 62.6% of murders don't result in the death penalty, I can't see how this shows the consequences of murdering someone.

It does show that the state executes an incredibly limited subset of murderers, and invites us to ask questions about whether this man's past or upbringing had anything to do with him winning the execution lottery.


Since libertarians want voluntary taxation and are opposed to the death penalty, then they should be the first to contribute to the Support a Murderer For Life Fund.

If it was a sensible fund, sure.
The southern US once had a pretty economically viable model for what to do with able bodied men you didn't have to pay for labor, and it's actually still legal in this country - it just isn't used for some unknown reason.
I would invest money voluntarily in a system like that, which has a potential return.

eOs
06-17-2010, 02:14 PM
Firing squad to the heart? Ouch. I'd prefer the head to be honest.

Kylie
06-17-2010, 02:40 PM
Of course, but I still think that firing squad is an inhumane way of doing it.

Any way of killing a human or animal is inhumane at it's basis, Matt.

We are not supposed to kill, right?


I say if the dude has to die, then let him do it the way he wants. Going out with style, man!!!

phill4paul
06-17-2010, 02:47 PM
Funny how the state can execute individuals but won't let others choose to end their lives. Kervorkian?

Matt Collins
06-17-2010, 02:51 PM
Any way of killing a human or animal is inhumane at it's basis, Matt.

We are not supposed to kill, right?
Well if you are referring to Biblical law, it says do not murder. Killing and murdering are not one in the same.

When one violates the rights of someone else, the government then has the ability to violate the rights of the violator in order to provide justice.

BlackTerrel
06-17-2010, 02:51 PM
Gardner, 49, was sentenced to death for a 1985 capital murder conviction stemming from the fatal courthouse shooting of attorney Michael Burdell during an escape attempt. Gardner was at the court because he faced a 1984 murder charge in the shooting death of bartender Melvyn Otterstrom.

Should have happened 25 years ago. You murder someone you've given up your right to live. How much money did they spend on this guy in the last 25 years? Shoot him and be done with it.


Really tragic to read about the guy's past. Something is fundamentally wrong with our justice system when we are willing to execute someone who seems to have finally started to turn around. Who knows if he's just faking it, but I am much more in favor of reform than revenge.

And what of the two people he killed? It's called justice.

And say you let this fucker go and he kills again - then what?

Kregisen
06-17-2010, 02:58 PM
You won't feel anything with a needle :rolleyes:

There are actually arguments that say otherwise. ( http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn7269-execution-by-injection-far-from-painless.html )

I would definitely choose firing squad over lethal injection.



Since libertarians want voluntary taxation and are opposed to the death penalty, then they should be the first to contribute to the Support a Murderer For Life Fund.

I support the death penalty but it's actually more expensive to execute someone than to put them in prison for life the way we have it right now. ( http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29552692/ )

Matt Collins
06-17-2010, 03:10 PM
There are actually arguments that say otherwise. ( http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn7269-execution-by-injection-far-from-painless.html (http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn7269-execution-by-injection-far-from-painless.html) )

I would definitely choose firing squad over lethal injection.
I don't understand how. If they first put you into unconsciousness, and then make your nerves so that they don't relay information (pain) to the brain, then how can there be any pain?

Kregisen
06-17-2010, 03:27 PM
The argument is it doesn't make you unconscious every time. There are many sources to go check out on the issue. (I think I first heard the argument on penn and teller's bullshit)

Slutter McGee
06-17-2010, 03:32 PM
Should have happened 25 years ago. You murder someone you've given up your right to live. How much money did they spend on this guy in the last 25 years? Shoot him and be done with it.
And what of the two people he killed? It's called justice.

And say you let this fucker go and he kills again - then what?

I agree with all you said except for the part in bold. You have to have a lengthy appeals process for such a punishment and I am ok with that. Anything that protects individual rights. BUT, I would agree with you for cases that include a plethora of evidence, eyewitness, DNA, confessions...for those kind of cases, kill em on spot I say.

Sincerely,

Slutter McGee

BuddyRey
06-17-2010, 04:15 PM
I would actually much rather die by firing squad than by lethal injection.

BlackTerrel
06-17-2010, 05:09 PM
I agree with all you said except for the part in bold. You have to have a lengthy appeals process for such a punishment and I am ok with that. Anything that protects individual rights. BUT, I would agree with you for cases that include a plethora of evidence, eyewitness, DNA, confessions...for those kind of cases, kill em on spot I say.

Sincerely,

Slutter McGee

I agree to an extent. But did it take 25 years to prove that he was guilty? Did he even deny it?

This is my view of the justice system. We coddle scum bags and throw the book at people who have done no wrong.

Rapists and murderers do not have a right to exist in society. Put them in jail for life or execute them - either way is fine. People that rob, or destroy property should be put away for a long time.

Then repeal all the bullshit laws such as all the "war on drugs".

Fox McCloud
06-17-2010, 05:11 PM
Of course, but I still think that firing squad is an inhumane way of doing it.

he specifically requested the method so...I don't really see the problem.

MelissaWV
06-17-2010, 05:14 PM
I skipped through the thread, I must admit, so I apologize if this has already been talked about.

When I originally heard the story, it seemed to me that firing squad really would be the best way to go (even if I'm against execution altogether, for the record). Then I heard that one of the guns would be loaded with a blank so that none of them could know if they killed him or not. Okay, that's cool; I think that's a neat solution in some ways. Then I heard that the executioners would be offered paid counseling after the fact. Hmm... okay... that sounds... stupid, actually. Then I heard something about commemorative medals/coins. Really? WTF.


The Utah Department of Corrections is planning on issuing a commemorative coin for those who participate in the Ronnie Lee Gardner execution. We don’t have money to fund education in the State of Utah but we have money to fund a commemorative coin for the Ronnie Lee Gardner execution. Apparently since 1985 Utah’s Department of Corrections has been passing out pins and ribbons for “special assignments.”

ninepointfive
06-17-2010, 05:38 PM
I skipped through the thread, I must admit, so I apologize if this has already been talked about.

When I originally heard the story, it seemed to me that firing squad really would be the best way to go (even if I'm against execution altogether, for the record). Then I heard that one of the guns would be loaded with a blank so that none of them could know if they killed him or not. Okay, that's cool; I think that's a neat solution in some ways. Then I heard that the executioners would be offered paid counseling after the fact. Hmm... okay... that sounds... stupid, actually. Then I heard something about commemorative medals/coins. Really? WTF.

Now that's interesting. Get a medal for being the executioner. To proudly display upon a mantle? Umm weird.

Cop Says,
"Gee, I killed this guy, or maybe killed this guy. Check out this medal I have!"

remind me to photoshop this later:
http://www.importcostumes.com/i/360x360/IC00420.jpg

Meatwasp
06-17-2010, 06:48 PM
Why or why did I read through this whole thread. Awful.

BillyDkid
06-17-2010, 07:58 PM
You aren't the only person who does not oppose the death penalty. I think death can be representative of justice. And the death penalty is one of the few things Ron Paul has changed his mind on, but not because it is fundamentally incompatible with liberty, but because he believes it is incompatible due to the potential of mistakes.

Don't really agree with that so much, but I can respect the argument.

So don't worry about it.

Sincerely,

Slutter McGeeNot only is the execution of an innocent person a real risk, but it is a complete corruption of any idea of justice. Furthermore, it all but completely ensures that a real murderer goes free. That is the issue. Has absolutely nothing to do with being a bleeding heart. Miscarriages of justice have happened and innocents have both been executed and lost most of their lives to prison. What on earth is more obscene than executing an innocent person for a crime committed by someone else? Which is worse - not executing a guilty person or executing an innocent one while simultaneously rewarding a guilty one with freedom?

How many examples of corrupt DA's and perjuring police and informants does it take before the risk of committing an irreversible and horrendous injustice outweighs the need to punish and before we stop trusting the state with the power of life and death over us? I have no problem with killing a murderer and certainly there are some cases where there is no doubt, but I would far rather "risk" not killing an actual murderer than risk killing an innocent who simple got caught in the cross hairs of a ruthless DA or a corrupt police department.

KCIndy
06-17-2010, 08:10 PM
You won't feel anything with a needle :rolleyes:

BULLcrap, I say!! Needles HURT!

And the last time I donated blood, the tech had to take three stabs at me - literally - to get the needle in the vein.... I almost passed out. I can't imagine how horrible it would be to be strapped down on a gurney and have some schmuck stabbing away trying to hit a vein. I would truly rather be shot.

Best of all, if the firing squad was given a "three, two, one... fire!" I think I would yell "FIRE!" at about the three count just to see if I could mess 'em up... but then I have a sick sense of humor. :rolleyes:

rancher89
06-17-2010, 08:25 PM
OK, depressed enough with all that's going on, but I'll weigh in w MHO



If there is no doubt that he did the crime....ie DNA or othe evidence is conclusive, so be it.

(there are plenty of cases 15-20 yrs after the conviction where DNA has absolved convicted persons...so, DNA evidence must be considered before anyone is put to death...just my humble opiinon...)

If the guy wishes the firing squad, so be it.

The idea of being injected with stuff and .....well, it just creeps me out ...

The electric chair is even more inhumane, if that's even a consideration in the long run. How many people have undergone electric shock therapy? I'd bet 100% would choose another way to die.

Me, if I were convicted of a crime that called for the death penalty (arbitrarily decided by the voting public or the legislature....gak...) I would choose the firing squad. Done, final and no crappola.

Anti Federalist
06-17-2010, 08:57 PM
Why or why did I read through this whole thread. Awful.

I concur.

Especially all those screaming for blood.

Hundreds of people have been released from death row over the years because it became clear they could not have committed the crime they were sentenced to death for.

Some of these people who were proved innocent actually confessed.

I don't trust government to fill a pothole. I certainly don't trust it with a man's life, especially when the entire system is aligned to get a conviction. Corrupt cops, lazy judges, grasping prosecutors and you've created a recipe for sending innocent men to death.

Matt Collins
06-17-2010, 10:42 PM
BULLcrap, I say!! Needles HURT!That can be negated too by applying a topical anesthetic prior to putting in the IV.


Best of all, if the firing squad was given a "three, two, one... fire!" I think I would yell "FIRE!" at about the three count just to see if I could mess 'em up... but then I have a sick sense of humor. :rolleyes:That is pretty funny.. :p

catdd
06-17-2010, 10:50 PM
It should be pretty close to happening now. The stay of execution was denied.

Danke
06-17-2010, 10:58 PM
I concur.

Especially all those screaming for blood.

Hundreds of people have been released from death row over the years because it became clear they could not have committed the crime they were sentenced to death for.

Some of these people who were proved innocent actually confessed.

I don't trust government to fill a pothole. I certainly don't trust it with a man's life, especially when the entire system is aligned to get a conviction. Corrupt cops, lazy judges, grasping prosecutors and you've created a recipe for sending innocent men to death.

And we have people on this forum trusting government to make that ultimate judgment. Supporting State executions.

Pathetic.

White Knight
06-17-2010, 11:51 PM
And we have people on this forum trusting government to make that ultimate judgment. Supporting State executions.

Pathetic.

The FF's supported executions, you should too.

RonPaulFanInGA
06-18-2010, 12:10 AM
And we have people on this forum trusting government to make that ultimate judgment. Supporting State executions.

Pathetic.

Ah, but the government having the power to lock people up in glorified cages for decades is okay? Is that a morally superior position? :rolleyes: Is letting convicted murderers off easy better?

I support the death penalty. I think the appeals process needs to be shortened though so it does not cost as much. In this particular case in Utah, this man has been feeding off the taxpayers on death row for 25 years now.

MR2Fast2Catch
06-18-2010, 12:20 AM
And we have people on this forum trusting government to make that ultimate judgment. Supporting State executions.

Pathetic.
Ah, but the government having the power to lock people up in glorified cages for decades is okay? Is that a morally superior position?



Of course it is a morally superior position. What if someone was locked up for so many years, and somehow over those years, some other evidence is found that proves the person is innocent? If the person was already executed it'd be too late. If they were still locked up, you get the idea.

Besides, a lot of people don't realize how expensive the death penalty is. It is actually cheaper to just lock someone up for life than try to give them capital punishment.

UtahApocalypse
06-18-2010, 12:55 AM
Gardener was shot at 00:17 Utah Time, Declared dead at 00:20

pahs1994
06-18-2010, 01:01 AM
I have no problems with this. he even got to pick how he died if it was me and i was guilty of these crimes, i would rather have a choice of how it would happen. he even said his victims died by a gun so, so should he.

Pauls' Revere
06-18-2010, 01:15 AM
Utah can do what they want.

Agreed. I heard the lawyer for the convicted saying that Utah needs to join 15 other states which do not have death penalties. Utah has thier own states rights and do as they please.

fj45lvr
06-18-2010, 01:19 AM
Utah uses the "firing squad" because of Mormon doctrine of "blood atonement"....weird. They shot Indians under same religious reasons (doing them a favor by shedding their blood).

amonasro
06-18-2010, 01:23 AM
By choosing to die in the same way his victims were killed, perhaps he shows more evidence of rehabilitation than those who are normally released on parole.

EndDaFed
06-18-2010, 06:37 AM
Should have happened 25 years ago. You murder someone you've given up your right to live. How much money did they spend on this guy in the last 25 years? Shoot him and be done with it.



And what of the two people he killed? It's called justice.

And say you let this fucker go and he kills again - then what?

Wouldn't have been more efficient to just use a predator drone on his house? Fuck all this due process bullshit.

malkusm
06-18-2010, 07:00 AM
Gardener was shot at 00:17 Utah Time, Declared dead at 00:20

So it took approximately 3 minutes for him to die?

Yeah, I'm with Collins on this....you guys can go ahead with the firing squad. Put me to sleep.

Dr.3D
06-18-2010, 07:02 AM
So it took approximately 3 minutes for him to die?

Yeah, I'm with Collins on this....you guys can go ahead with the firing squad. Put me to sleep.

It probably took the physician that long to determine he was dead.

Slutter McGee
06-18-2010, 07:32 AM
How many examples of corrupt DA's and perjuring police and informants does it take before the risk of committing an irreversible and horrendous injustice outweighs the need to punish and before we stop trusting the state with the power of life and death over us? I have no problem with killing a murderer and certainly there are some cases where there is no doubt, but I would far rather "risk" not killing an actual murderer than risk killing an innocent who simple got caught in the cross hairs of a ruthless DA or a corrupt police department.

The corruption in local courts is not near as bad as you think. At least here in Amarillo Texas. How do I know? My dad is a DA. Sometimes there is no doubt on the subject of innocence, and contrary to popular opinion shaped by movies, prosecutors are not out there to throw anybody and everybody in prison regardless of guilt.

Sincerely,

Slutter McGee

Original_Intent
06-18-2010, 07:40 AM
And even if someone is killed by the state due to corruption - in that case another crime has been committed, in my opinion a capital crime! And I highly doubt that any DA wants to convict so bad that he would manufacture evidence and risk the death penalty himself just to get a conviction.

And yes to what Slutter said - TV has programmed us to think this kind of thing happens all the time. Doubtless it happens, but I would guess rarely. So we should work on fixing the broken system. We need to quit convicting non-criminals and need to start being harsher in punishment of those who actually commit crimes that harm others.

fisharmor
06-18-2010, 07:58 AM
I support the death penalty.

Oh, so do I.
If someone tries to break into my house in the middle of the night, or if I catch someone trying to do something to one of my girls, there's going to be a death penalty.

At which point your beloved system is going to do everything in its power to put me in the rape dungeon.


So it took approximately 3 minutes for him to die?

No, we're talking four rounds of probably 7.62x51. That would instantly turn his entire chest into hamburger. If he didn't collapse in shock immediately, it would take very little time to lose consciousness.

With LI, you have to have some shaved monkey stabbing at your arm for a couple minutes to find a vein, then there's the risk that they're still not going to find it and whatever knock-out crap they do first is going to just pool under your skin and they'll have to start over, then they have to administer the knock-out crap, and all we really know about that is that it is supposed to render you unconscious... and then finally, like 20 minutes later, they stop your heart, and you basically die from oxygen deprivation.

The firing squad is much quicker.

MelissaWV
06-18-2010, 08:08 AM
Of course it is a morally superior position. What if someone was locked up for so many years, and somehow over those years, some other evidence is found that proves the person is innocent? If the person was already executed it'd be too late. If they were still locked up, you get the idea.

Besides, a lot of people don't realize how expensive the death penalty is. It is actually cheaper to just lock someone up for life than try to give them capital punishment.

I've said it on another thread, but it bears mentioning here. Locking someone up for life should also mean that they are able to work and maintain themselves to a certain extent. I would like to see more self-sufficient prisons. Part of the disquiet I feel about inmates being in jail for so long is the fact that the victim's family is essentially now paying for the killer to live. A lot of these charming news programs remind us that inmates sometimes have "perks," and that can only be a sharp and painful reminder that their loved one has no such "perks" anymore, not even the bonus of breathing.

Absolutely, you should be able to defend yourself. Someone breaking into your home is going to face a weapon. That's a totally different matter, and you will go to trial over it, most likely, or at very least be investigated. We are talking about the Government taking the reins on this. I'm personally against the Death Penalty on those grounds. Utah still has it, and it's within their rights, but it doesn't stop one from having an opinion.

Danke
06-18-2010, 09:36 AM
The FF's supported executions, you should too.

So I should support slavery too?

catdd
06-18-2010, 09:48 AM
Not a very good grouping. Two of the shots were nearly 8 inches apart.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/06/17/utah-man-facing-firing-squad-execution-early-friday-moved-observation-cell/?test=latestnews

KCIndy
06-18-2010, 10:00 AM
Not a very good grouping. Two of the shots were 8 inches apart.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/06/17/utah-man-facing-firing-squad-execution-early-friday-moved-observation-cell/?test=latestnews


Either I'm missing it, or the story was edited. I read and re-read the article and I didn't see anything about the 8" grouping. I'm not doubting you, just curious as to why the story would have been edited. (And yeah, I can think of a bunch of reasons!)

The only detailed info at the time I read it was this:


The five executioners, certified police officers who volunteered for the task and remain anonymous, stood about 25 feet away, behind a wall cut with a gunport, and were armed with matching .30-caliber Winchester rifles. One was loaded with a blank so no one knows who fired the fatal shot. Sandbags stacked behind Gardner's chair kept the bullets from ricocheting around the cinderblock room.

Utah Department of Corrections Director Thomas Patterson said the countdown cadence went "5-4-3..." with the shooters starting to fire at the count of 2.

First, from 25 feet away, there's NO excuse for even a mediocre shooter to be off by 8" on the target. Second, if someone started shooting at the count of "2" it sounds like someone got antsy and pulled off on the shot.

Last, anyone who is really familiar with firearms would probably know if the rifle was loaded with a blank... I wonder what, exactly, the qualifications were for these so-called "marksmen" who performed the execution?

MelissaWV
06-18-2010, 10:03 AM
I really wish I could find an image of the coins these guys got issued for "special assignment."

catdd
06-18-2010, 10:13 AM
Either I'm missing it, or the story was edited. I read and re-read the article and I didn't see anything about the 8" grouping. I'm not doubting you, just curious as to why the story would have been edited. (And yeah, I can think of a bunch of reasons!)

The only detailed info at the time I read it was this:



First, from 25 feet away, there's NO excuse for even a mediocre shooter to be off by 8" on the target. Second, if someone started shooting at the count of "2" it sounds like someone got antsy and pulled off on the shot.

Last, anyone who is really familiar with firearms would probably know if the rifle was loaded with a blank... I wonder what, exactly, the qualifications were for these so-called "marksmen" who performed the execution?


You have to look at the bullet marks on the wood. Those boards are 2"X 4"s , which means they are 4" wide. Two of the shots are on the far end of two 4" boards making them 8 inches apart. Do you see what I'm saying?

Matt Collins
06-18-2010, 10:22 AM
The corruption in local courts is not near as bad as you think. At least here in Amarillo Texas. How do I know? My dad is a DA. You should ask TorchBearer about this sometime :o

Matt Collins
06-18-2010, 10:30 AM
Gardener was shot at 00:17 Utah Time, Declared dead at 00:20


So it took approximately 3 minutes for him to die?

Yeah, I'm with Collins on this....you guys can go ahead with the firing squad. Put me to sleep.
Glad someone else understands this.

It probably took the physician that long to determine he was dead.It just requires a pulse and a heart beat to determine death from my understanding. Either way a gunshot doesn't kill you immediately, that's my point! :(

fisharmor
06-18-2010, 10:34 AM
You have to look at the bullet marks on the wood. Those boards are 2"X 4"s , which means they are 4" wide. Do you see what I'm saying?

To be fair, even if they're 2x4s, the 4 part is actually 3.5", and it's inside both edges, meaning it's really like a 6.5" group.

Could be 2x3s, though. About six of those holes fit on the width of one board. 2x3 would make those holes about .4", 2x4 would make it .58". Not sure what a .3" bullet hitting a board expands to. But 2x3 would make it a 4.5" group.

Now I'm going to go do something else.....

catdd
06-18-2010, 10:36 AM
To be fair, even if they're 2x4s, the 4 part is actually 3.5", and it's inside both edges, meaning it's really like a 6.5" group.

Could be 2x3s, though. About six of those holes fit on the width of one board. 2x3 would make those holes about .4", 2x4 would make it .58". Not sure what a .3" bullet hitting a board expands to. But 2x3 would make it a 4.5" group.

Now I'm going to go do something else.....

They could be 2"x6" just as easily - but I hope not because that would make two of the shots nearly a foot apart.
But since 2x4 are the most common I'm figuring that's what they are. Even 6.5 inches apart at that range is despicable shooting.

MelissaWV
06-18-2010, 10:38 AM
I'm guessing a physician doesn't just run in and examine the guy first thing. Firing squads cause slippery floors. Guns also need to be secured, I'm guessing, before anyone is cleared to get anywhere near the inmate. Even though there aren't supposed to be any additional bullets, who's to say someone didn't fire when they were supposed to? Would you want that chance if you were a doctor? Nope, so our lovely "System" probably ensures that weapons are stowed.

In other words, a three minute window between time of shots and time of death does not mean that he was alive for three minutes.

Matt Collins
06-18-2010, 10:50 AM
YouTube - Video of firing squad execution chamber after Ronnie Lee Gardner put to death (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4RW3iQPQ90&feature=player_embedded)


YouTube - Ronnie Lee Gardner Executed by Firing Squad (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjN-XSsSIUA)

KCIndy
06-18-2010, 10:58 AM
You have to look at the bullet marks on the wood. Those boards are 2"X 4"s , which means they are 4" wide. Two of the shots are on the far end of two 4" boards making them 8 inches apart. Do you see what I'm saying?


*smacks self on forehead*
AAhhhhh.... I didn't even look at the picture, I just started reading the article! I see what you mean.

My first thought was, "maybe there was an extra foot or so of space behind the chair and the boards, since the article mentioned they stacked sandbags behind him." That would mean that since the shooting was at close range, the bullets would fan out behind the point of impact. Think of a big letter X.



impact impact impact impact


X
shooter shooter shooter shooter


But then I realized that the sandbags were probably stacked behind the boards, not in front, meaning that the execution chair was probably not more than a few inches in front of the boards. That is probably not enough room to allow for a wide fan-out behind the point of impact.... unless the shooters were stationed about ten feet apart behind those shooting ports.

I wonder exactly how far apart the shooting ports were?

Assuming for a moment the ports were placed widely apart, say ten feet or more, and assuming everyone shot very accurately, the spacing of the shots on the board would indicate that the shooter second from the left (if viewing them from behind) was the one shooting the blank.

eeww...

Sometimes I'm a little too analytical for my own comfort. :(

KCIndy
06-18-2010, 11:01 AM
Even though there aren't supposed to be any additional bullets, who's to say someone didn't fire when they were supposed to?


That's why, if I were the victim, I would yell "FIRE!!" at the top of my lungs just as the guy was dropping the black hood over my head... just to scare the bejeezus out of him....

I'm sick, sick, sick....

tmosley
06-18-2010, 11:04 AM
Not to get too morbid but I would think that lethal injection would be the most humane way of doing it (although I realize the subject requested the firing squad).

You must not know about the sheer and utter agony that comes from a lethal injection. They don't knock you out, but only give you a paralytic, and then they inject potassium chloride to kill you. It takes about two minutes to kill you, and it burns worse than fire, like having salt rubbed in a wound, only EVERYWHERE.

Being shot in the head is the most humane way to execute someone. Multiple bullets are best so that it will knock out your conscious mind at the same time that you get hit in the medulla, which kills your body.

KCIndy
06-18-2010, 11:15 AM
I really wish I could find an image of the coins these guys got issued for "special assignment."

Here's an article about the Corrections Department switching from merit pins to the "commemorative" coin:

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/700027698/Corrections-creating-commemorative-coin-for-Ronnie-Lee-Gardner-execution.html

from the article:

But no pin will be issued to commemorate Ronnie Lee Gardner's execution, which is scheduled to occur June 18.

Instead, Corrections spokesman Steve Gehrke said, officials will create a special coin that will be presented to staff members who play any role in carrying out the execution.

"The staff preferred something a little more modern than the ribbons," Gehrke said. "Since people don't walk around displaying those anyway, we're switching to a coin."

....gee, I wonder why people didn't wear their pins? And coins? Oh, much better..... (where's the "puking" smiley?)

Matt Collins
06-18-2010, 11:16 AM
You must not know about the sheer and utter agony that comes from a lethal injection. They don't knock you out, but only give you a paralytic, and then they inject potassium chloride to kill you. It takes about two minutes to kill you, and it burns worse than fire, like having salt rubbed in a wound, only EVERYWHERE.

Being shot in the head is the most humane way to execute someone. Multiple bullets are best so that it will knock out your conscious mind at the same time that you get hit in the medulla, which kills your body.
It's my understanding it's a 3 chemical event.

IV gets installed then:
shot # 1- puts you asleep
shot # 2- numbs you
shot # 3- kills you

malkusm
06-18-2010, 11:28 AM
You must not know about the sheer and utter agony that comes from a lethal injection. They don't knock you out, but only give you a paralytic, and then they inject potassium chloride to kill you. It takes about two minutes to kill you, and it burns worse than fire, like having salt rubbed in a wound, only EVERYWHERE.

Being shot in the head is the most humane way to execute someone. Multiple bullets are best so that it will knock out your conscious mind at the same time that you get hit in the medulla, which kills your body.

I'd like to see some evidence that (a) this is the method used and (b) this is the effect that the nervous system relays to the brain; since, obviously, there haven't been any death penalty victims who have testified to this experience.

But, I am open-minded and will change my opinion if presented with proper evidence. It's more of the "devil you know vs. the devil you don't" in my mind.

MelissaWV
06-18-2010, 11:51 AM
Here's an article about the Corrections Department switching from merit pins to the "commemorative" coin:

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/700027698/Corrections-creating-commemorative-coin-for-Ronnie-Lee-Gardner-execution.html

from the article:


....gee, I wonder why people didn't wear their pins? And coins? Oh, much better..... (where's the "puking" smiley?)

Yes, I've read up on the fact that coins are being issued... I just wonder what the hell is ON the coin? Probably a bunch of nauseating patriotic crap.

Reason
06-18-2010, 12:08 PM
YouTube - Video of firing squad execution chamber after Ronnie Lee Gardner put to death (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4RW3iQPQ90)