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View Full Version : The psychological effects of access to top-secret information




Mahkato
06-10-2010, 02:45 PM
I found this (http://motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2010/02/daniel-ellsberg-limitations-knowledge) interesting:


"Henry, there's something I would like to tell you, for what it's worth, something I wish I had been told years ago. You've been a consultant for a long time, and you've dealt a great deal with top secret information. But you're about to receive a whole slew of special clearances, maybe fifteen or twenty of them, that are higher than top secret.

"I've had a number of these myself, and I've known other people who have just acquired them, and I have a pretty good sense of what the effects of receiving these clearances are on a person who didn't previously know they even existed. And the effects of reading the information that they will make available to you.

"First, you'll be exhilarated by some of this new information, and by having it all — so much! incredible! — suddenly available to you. But second, almost as fast, you will feel like a fool for having studied, written, talked about these subjects, criticized and analyzed decisions made by presidents for years without having known of the existence of all this information, which presidents and others had and you didn't, and which must have influenced their decisions in ways you couldn't even guess. In particular, you'll feel foolish for having literally rubbed shoulders for over a decade with some officials and consultants who did have access to all this information you didn't know about and didn't know they had, and you'll be stunned that they kept that secret from you so well.

"You will feel like a fool, and that will last for about two weeks. Then, after you've started reading all this daily intelligence input and become used to using what amounts to whole libraries of hidden information, which is much more closely held than mere top secret data, you will forget there ever was a time when you didn't have it, and you'll be aware only of the fact that you have it now and most others don't....and that all those other people are fools.

"Over a longer period of time — not too long, but a matter of two or three years — you'll eventually become aware of the limitations of this information. There is a great deal that it doesn't tell you, it's often inaccurate, and it can lead you astray just as much as the New York Times can. But that takes a while to learn.
"In the meantime it will have become very hard for you to learn from anybody who doesn't have these clearances. Because you'll be thinking as you listen to them: 'What would this man be telling me if he knew what I know? Would he be giving me the same advice, or would it totally change his predictions and recommendations?' And that mental exercise is so torturous that after a while you give it up and just stop listening. I've seen this with my superiors, my colleagues....and with myself.

"You will deal with a person who doesn't have those clearances only from the point of view of what you want him to believe and what impression you want him to go away with, since you'll have to lie carefully to him about what you know. In effect, you will have to manipulate him. You'll give up trying to assess what he has to say. The danger is, you'll become something like a moron. You'll become incapable of learning from most people in the world, no matter how much experience they may have in their particular areas that may be much greater than yours."

fisharmor
06-10-2010, 02:51 PM
I don't know what this is from, and I don't care.

Government does not create anything.
In fact, government creates nothing.
Where there is something, government involvement turns it into nothing.

This anecdote is just further suggestion of this. Not only does it destroy wealth and lives and property and liberty, it also destroys minds.

Mahkato
06-10-2010, 02:55 PM
it also destroys minds.

I think that was the point. Many of the most powerful people in government pay no attention to us 'little people' because the access to 'special' knowledge has given them a superiority complex that makes them incapable of listening to us. Even if the special information is wrong, just because of its exclusivity it is always trusted over non-secret information.

tangent4ronpaul
06-10-2010, 03:33 PM
The idea of a person having 20+ above TS clearances, beyond the prez or someone like that is ludicrous! At that level, things are highly compartmentalized. If you know how things are collected - you will have no access to what is collected. and so on.

:rolleyes:

-t

Roxi
06-10-2010, 03:47 PM
I don't know what this is from, and I don't care.

Government does not create anything.
In fact, government creates nothing.
Where there is something, government involvement turns it into nothing.

This anecdote is just further suggestion of this. Not only does it destroy wealth and lives and property and liberty, it also destroys minds.

the setting is a meeting with Henry Kissinger in late 1968 when he [Daniel Ellsberg] was advising him about the Vietnam War. The idea of Kissinger seeking out Ellsberg for advice on Vietnam initially seems a bit unlikely, but in 1968 Ellsberg was a highly respected analyst on the war who had worked for both the Pentagon and Rand, and Kissinger was just entering the government for the first time.

Arklatex
06-10-2010, 05:23 PM
Ewww good thread topic. I feel like this everyday, aware of what's going on here it makes daily life silly. Looking around at everyone who have no idea what they are, where they are or what's going on here! The spiritual awakening is coming soon though, not soon enough. What a wacky idea I and everyone else had to incarnate here where the veil is so incredibly thick. :p

Promontorium
06-11-2010, 05:34 AM
The idea of a person having 20+ above TS clearances, beyond the prez or someone like that is ludicrous! At that level, things are highly compartmentalized. If you know how things are collected - you will have no access to what is collected. and so on.

:rolleyes:

-t

"you're about to receive a whole slew of special clearances, maybe fifteen or twenty of them, that are higher than top secret."

15 or 20 different clearances. Like "access to this battle plan" "access to this Top Secret coffee maker".

It's true that things are increasingly spread out as you move up higher, but that only applies to the paper pushers. The decision makers see much more information.

Dr.3D
06-11-2010, 05:48 AM
Doesn't matter how many clearances you have and how high they go. You will still only have access to only the information you "need to know".

Promontorium
06-11-2010, 05:58 AM
That is the truly ridiculous nature of classified information. It tends to stick with the people who know how to use it the least, in fear of trusting those who could use it the most. Thus negating any usefullness. Famously exampled in WW2, where they would protect their cracking of codes, by doing absolutely nothing with the intel they collected.


When you understand that, you can understand "loyalty" within the system. You hope, you have faith, on a religious level, that somewhere some people are doing something worthwhile, and the information you have is getting to them, or the information you wish you had, is being kept from you for good reason. This religious faith in government is ironically portrayed in what many would call "anti-government" type stories where there are hordes of superhuman perfectly supplied spies that are backed up by entire warehouses of geniuses saving the world every grinding minute of the day. To these people, 9/11 was impossible, therefore it must have been government orchestrated.

The idea that all the billions of dollars and thousands of intelligence workers, and armies of spies and technicians and technology could gather up 90% of the picture, and still see a Pollock is incomprehensible. They must have either let it happen, or made it happen. The idea that not only does neither hand know what the other is doing, but that no finger is working in unison is just blasphemy.

Well, regardless of what is said, heard, or "known", the entire intelligence system in the US is like a man with Alzheimer's. Even if he realizes there's danger ahead, he won't have the time or psychological coordination to effectively respond, his only hope is that at that exact moment someone is close enough to overhear him scream in terror, for he will soon forget himself, even if he's beaten and robbed every single day, he will at all times accept his degrading condition as an ideal or stable condition. He could say 1,000 times a day that he's got things covered, that he can take care of himself, that he remembers everything, but he never has it together, and he will never be effectively self sufficient again.