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Anti Federalist
06-07-2010, 07:46 PM
Do You Really Believe They’re Going to Pay Off This Debt?

by Vin Suprynowicz

If I invoke the phrase “Greek debt crisis,” do your eyelids start to grow heavy?

Do you somehow find it difficult to summon up a fresh wave of outrage if someone mentions that when Barack Obama’s National Commission on Fiscal Responsibility and Reform (better known as the Democratic Tax-Hike Justification Front) convened for its second monthly meeting last week, Congress was already 41 days past its April 15 deadline for passing a budget resolution – scared to death to admit, in an election year and the third year of the Second Great Depression, just how much new debt and spending they intend to crank up?

If these topics fired the American imagination, the most popular prime-time television shows would feature teams of CPAs wiping sweat from their brows as they raced to figure out a tricky tax return on their desktop calculators. “Go, PriceWaterhouseCoopers, go!”

So let’s try to avoid a page full of decimals and percent signs. Pardon my ballpark figures.

Go watch the federal debt clock. It shows the federal government – your congresscritter and mine – have promised to pay the folks who bought U.S. bonds $13 trillion which they don’t have. Your personal share – the amount your congresscritter and mine promised to squeeze out of you to pay off those IOUs, if you’re a taxpayer – is about $117,000. Make that $180,000 when all government debt is included.

Total United States unfunded liabilities? I believe that says $108 trillion.

With average family income at about $62,000, can you ever pay that off?


Someday soon, people are going to stop loaning money to these Pharaohs of Fakery, these Ptolemies on the Potomac – or else Washington’s creditors are going to start demanding some serious collateral for their loans, that won’t be politically popular. Like, maybe, the Hawaiian Islands.

The Poor Soul tries to envision a solution.

“Gee, Vin. We have to keep paying interest on the debt, and we have to keep meeting our obligations to Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid, since those are moral commitments. Unfortunately, when you add all those up, you get more than half the current federal budget. So if we cut everything else – the armed forces, farm subsidies, federal courthouses, everything – by two thirds, that’s a one-third cut in the federal budget. Do that, and stop borrowing – an end to borrowing is the first step if we really want to start paying down the debt – and we can at least cut taxes by one third. That’s a good start.”

No it isn’t. If you stop borrowing, under this keep-on-spending scenario, you have to raise taxes by enough to replace the cash-flow that was previously covered by your borrowing. Taxes would remain essentially the same, in exchange for which people would get a lot less in government “services.” How long would such an “austerity regime” be tolerated? It’s a political non-starter, which is why the kleptocrats keep not starting.

Besides, actually paying down the government debt is a terrible idea. Have you ever paid off a credit card? Suddenly your mailbox is full of new credit offers: “Take out a new home equity loan to fund all those overdue home repairs, buy your new dream boat or car, and we’ll throw in a free toaster! Pay nothing for a full year!”

If our hypothetical conservative/libertarian austerity administration took over, gutted all those federal “services” people line up for (Cue the weeping and wailing about “slashing education,” “savaging health care,” “old people dying in the gutters,” etc.) and actually started paying down the debt, how long would it be before the socialists returned to power, only to find they could now borrow even more, because (thanks to our well-intentioned but idiotic efforts) the U.S. of A. would actually now have a better credit rating?

No, if you want to get the U.S. government off the borrow-and-spend treadmill,there’s only one answer: default.

You only have to win one election, at which point you declare Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid all bankrupt and closed; in default. You believed the promises of those lying politicians? Your problem.

You own U.S. bonds? Tough. The politicians lied when they said they had the power to make succeeding generations pay their debts; we’re defaulting. You don’t get another cent.

Presto: Half of those “mandatory” federal expenditures are gone, overnight. NOW slice everything else by two thirds (that’s a “net” figure – the “Department of Agriculture,” the “War on Drugs” and the “Firearms and Explosives” tentacles of the BATFE would immediately be reduced to zero, of course), and you’ve reduced both federal expenditures AND FEDERAL TAXES by 80 percent.

But here’s the best part. Four, six, eight years later the pendulum swings, as it always does, and the socialists come back to power.

They go back to the folks who used to loan money to Uncle Sam, saying, “Hi, Remember us? We’re the compassionate progressive collectivist redistributionists, and we’re back. We’d like to borrow a few billion again to re-animate some of these great federal programs that our evil predecessors nailed into coffins and buried out back.”

“Loan you money? You just defaulted. Your credit rating is zero.”

“No, no, no. That was the evil conservative/libertarians. They’re gone now.”

“Yeah, and in four years they could be back, and default on your debts all over again. Take a hike.”

A massive federal default would PREVENT THE REDISTRIBUTIONIST THIEVES from running Washington City into debt again, for as much as 50 years.

Since Democrats say they’re in favor of “Pay as You Go,” and this is the only way to REALLY impose “Pay As You Go,” how can they object?

Start asking the candidates: “Would you vote to default on the federal debt? Why not? The only other solution is to hyperinflate our way out of it, which amounts to the same thing but renders my dollar-denominated savings worthless in the process.

“I don’t remember signing anything that said I’d pay all the debts run up by these crooked politicians, while they all retire to a nice ranch. THEY swore an oath to obey a Constitution that authorizes only a tiny portion of this spending. I don’t have $117,000, anyway. If every taxpayer sold their house to raise $117,000, who would buy all the houses? Isn’t a default the only way to end the borrowing and the deficit spending for good? Why would that be bad?”


http://www.lewrockwell.com/suprynowicz/suprynowicz146.html

AmericaFyeah92
06-07-2010, 07:47 PM
The national debt may be the liberty movement's best friend

MRK
06-07-2010, 08:03 PM
Expect opposition from people who insist that loans are necessary in emergency situations.

But the real question is, is the United States in such a good position (or could be after some fiscal changes) that if after it defaulted it would be able to sustain itself without loans?

Jordan
06-07-2010, 08:23 PM
Unfunded liabilities shouldn't be counted as our national debt. Granted, we will owe this money in the future, but it does not accrue interest.

Which costs us more right now? The $13 trillion debt, or $109 in unfunded liabilities?

The debt, duh.

The $109 trillion in unfunded liabilities is to be paid for over decades, amortizing the cost. The national debt, on the other hand, is debt already accrued that costs us each and every year.

Are the unfunded liabilities a serious problem? Yes. But classifying them as a debt isn't really fair. We could wipe them all away if we really wanted to. The debt wouldn't be as easy to wipe away.

Zippyjuan
06-07-2010, 08:34 PM
If the US wants to get away with defaulting on their debt and not needing to borrow more in the future they will have to produce a balanced budget.

A lot of that debt is held in retirement funds for people- private investments, pension plans, and retirement funds like 401ks and IRAs. Then add in other accounts with banks and investment firms and you would have a dramatic impact on the economy. US depository institutions have about $150 billion worth of US debt. Insurance companies over $160 billion. Pension funds roughly half a trillion. State and local governments about the same. Mutual funds- $700 billion. "Other investors and Savings Bonds" about $1.1 trillion. http://www.cnbc.com/id/29880401/The_Biggest_Holders_of_US_Government_Debt

The recent financial collapse would be small potatoes compared to what would happen if the US were to default on their debt. At first glance it sounds simple, but it would have a massive global impact- and not in a good way.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/63/Estimated_ownership_of_US_Treasury_securities_by_c ategory_0608.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/63/Estimated_ownership_of_US_Treasury_securities_by_c ategory_0608.jpg

RCA
06-28-2010, 01:20 PM
The national debt may be the liberty movement's best friend

I've thought about this too. What better way to wake up the masses than with 13 trillion dollars that they owe?

fisharmor
06-28-2010, 01:43 PM
The recent financial collapse would be small potatoes compared to what would happen if the US were to default on their debt. At first glance it sounds simple, but it would have a massive global impact- and not in a good way.

Well, I'm actually sold on the idea.
Sure it would have a massive negative effect - that's the point.
It would be the most massive take-your-medicine maneuver in the history of the world.
But that IS what it would be.
People would spend a year recovering. It would only be six months before everyone collectively started to realize that the old rules didn't apply. And then they'd figure out something else to do.

It wasn't that long ago that nobody owned 401ks and mutual funds - at least not in the middle class. People adapted to these as soon as they became desirable.

They'd adapt to whatever came up next. I have faith that the market would provide. A lot more faith than I have in any solution that doesn't smash the current situation with a sledge hammer.

Ninja Homer
06-28-2010, 01:57 PM
I like the idea as well... and by liking it, I mean that it's preferable to the obvious alternative which is hyperinflation. The problem is that a huge chunk of the voting public would be flat out against it.

So how about a compromise... default on the portion of the debt owed to the Federal Reserve, which is a HUGE portion of it. I think that could be part of a winning platform.

Zippyjuan
06-28-2010, 06:42 PM
Well, I'm actually sold on the idea.
Sure it would have a massive negative effect - that's the point.
It would be the most massive take-your-medicine maneuver in the history of the world.
But that IS what it would be.
People would spend a year recovering. It would only be six months before everyone collectively started to realize that the old rules didn't apply. And then they'd figure out something else to do.

It wasn't that long ago that nobody owned 401ks and mutual funds - at least not in the middle class. People adapted to these as soon as they became desirable.

They'd adapt to whatever came up next. I have faith that the market would provide. A lot more faith than I have in any solution that doesn't smash the current situation with a sledge hammer.

Only a year? The following crisis would be massively worse than the one we are now in. It would take a very, very, very long time to recover.

sevin
06-28-2010, 07:47 PM
So how about a compromise... default on the portion of the debt owed to the Federal Reserve, which is a HUGE portion of it. I think that could be part of a winning platform.

This is what I've been thinking. Why the hell should we have to pay interest to the federal reserve? What's the point of even having a federal reserve? It's so stupid!

Golding
06-28-2010, 07:49 PM
The national debt may be the liberty movement's best friend
I wouldn't go that far, but keep your enemies close.

michaelwise
06-28-2010, 10:06 PM
Follow the Iceland model, that's what I say. Leave the Fed holding the bag after abolishing them.

Brooklyn Red Leg
06-29-2010, 08:31 AM
We should DEFINITELY default on the 'debt' owed to The Federal Reserve. Its fraudulent anyway and there goes half our debt overnight. We SHOULD pay back what we owe to foreign governments, though, as well as what is owed to citizens from bonds. But the phony debt from the Fed, yea, bye-bye motherfuckers, hope you all rot in hell!

Dr.3D
06-29-2010, 08:45 AM
If they abolished the FED would there be as much debt to pay off?

fgd
06-29-2010, 09:21 AM
The way Bennie keeps buying up bonds to keep rates low through the PD backdoors, pretty soon the Fed *will* be the totality of the debt. THAT would be poetic. The Fed owns every cent of US debt, then Treasury goes "so sorry!" and POOM detonates the Fed.

brandon
06-29-2010, 09:42 AM
I have no debt.

I just have a bunch of gangsters trying to make me pay theirs.

Zippyjuan
06-29-2010, 12:48 PM
The US debt is $14 trillion but the Federal Reserve only holds $777 billiion of that as of June 23rd. http://www.federalreserve.gov/releases/h41/current/ Cancelling the Federal Reserve held debt would only get rid of about five and a half percent. Some people may have seen the figure for debt held by "the Fed and Intergovernmental holdings" or such and assumed that this was all held by the Fed. Most of it is held by Social Security and other government pension funds.


Public and government accounts

Detailed breakdown of government holders of treasury debt and debt instruments used of the public portion.The national debt is broken down into 2 main categories:[12]

1.Securities held by the public
Marketable securities
Non-marketable securities
2.Securities held by government accounts
The values for fiscal years 1999-2008 are published by the treasury[12] and about 60% of the debt is held by the public.

As of 2008, Social Security Federal Old-Age and Survivors Insurance Trust Fund holds about half of the government held portion of the debt at 2.2 trillion dollars, with other large holders including the Federal Housing Administration, the Federal Savings and Loan Corporation's Resolution Fund and the Federal Hospital Insurance Trust Fund. Most of the public debt is in notes and bills with only about one trillion in bonds and inflation protected bonds.

[edit] Estimated ownership

Estimated ownership of US public debt in 2008.
Estimated ownership each year through time.Because a large variety of people own the notes, bills, and bonds in the "public" portion of the debt, the U.S. Treasury also publishes information that groups the types of holders by general categories to portray who owns United States debt. In this data set, some of the public portion is moved and combined with the total government portion, because this amount is owned by the Federal Reserve as part of United States monetary policy. (See Federal Reserve System)

As is apparent from the chart, a little less than half of the total national debt is owed to the "Federal Reserve and intragovernmental holdings". The foreign and international holders of the debt are also put together from the notes, bills, and bonds sections. Below is a chart for the data as of June 2008

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_public_debt

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ec/Holders_of_the_National_Debt_of_the_United_States. gif

Anti Federalist
06-29-2010, 12:50 PM
I have no debt.

I just have a bunch of gangsters trying to make me pay theirs.

That ^^ +1776

osan
06-29-2010, 01:03 PM
If the US wants to get away with defaulting on their debt and not needing to borrow more in the future they will have to produce a balanced budget.

Precisely so. If we repudiate, and I believe that we should, nobody will lend us money for awhile. Balanced budgeting would be the only viable option.



The recent financial collapse would be small potatoes compared to what would happen if the US were to default on their debt. At first glance it sounds simple, but it would have a massive global impact- and not in a good way.

Not in a non-painful way, perhaps, and not good for many I am sure, but the longer view appears to suggest that this is the only real solution, assuming that we don't start up afresh once the pain is over.

Stop Making Cents
06-29-2010, 01:08 PM
It's not our debt, it's THEIR debt

They just want you to think it's your debt

osan
06-29-2010, 01:57 PM
Only a year? The following crisis would be massively worse than the one we are now in. It would take a very, very, very long time to recover.

Longer than a year, to be sure, but not necessarily a decade even. It would depend on how we proceeded out of the trauma. A return to asset-backed currency would be a good start - doesn't have to be gold, but it would have to be a set of assets whose values do not depreciate according to a schedule.

A return to true free market capitalism would be another necessary step. Trading with only those foreign nations that practice capitalism according to OUR rules. For example, none of this labor arbitrage bullshit with China. If China wants to trade freely with the USA, they take their mitts off their domestic labor and Chinese products would be taxed such that the effective labor cost of their products rises to within 10% of American rates. If China doesn't like it, they can go pound limes up their pathetuc little, crooked authoritarian assholes.

A radical alteration to government action would have to be set into place. Everything would have to be cleansed, and I used that word with great caution, given the results of past cleansings around the world. But one thing I would do is give traitors a very fair trial and for those convicted I would execute them very publicly, perhaps by slow hanging, and no hoods. Cold and clinical so that the world sees what we do with tyrants and others who violate Liberty. I would make it an utter horror for anyone to so much as think about violations of the public trust. I would make it so that only those utterly dedicated to public service would so much as even passinbgly consider running for public office. Cops would shudder at the thought of offending a "civilian", much less placing hands on them without just cause and ouside of their envelopes of granted authority.

A return to a form of isolationism would be absolutely essential. No more world's police force nonsense. We hammer anyone who attempts to damage us and leave the rest to their devices. We dismantle every foreign military base we own and render them materially unusable to any other foreign force. We look out for ourselves first and foremost and let the rest of the world do as it pleases. I would remain in the UN for one reason - veto power. I would put the ax to every proposed measure of forced collectivism that came up. I would render the UN utterly ball-less such that the rest of the members would slowly leave and when we were the last in the room, put the lights out.

I would make it clear to the world that if you fuck with us, we will destroy you in every way up to and including real live genocide. Leave us alone and we will leave you alone. Trade fairly with us and we will do the same. Be friendly with us and we will be your friends as well. Harm us and face utter obliteration. The other side of that coin would be holding our own to the same standards of behavior. No fraud, theft, murder, etc. No more of this foreign intrigue crap - no more economic hitmen, jackals, coups d'etat... Over - done, fin, ende, vege, finito. Violate that and pay a bitter price.

Corporations would be granted great freedoms, but the metes and bounds of their prerogatives would be clear and overstepping those in even the smallest measure would result in complete liquidation of assets to be auctioned to the public, and horrific sentences for those responsible for the acts. No second chances, ever. This applies to CRIMINAL activity ONLY and would be subject to full due process. Shareholders would lose their investments in-toto if when under due process it is demonstrated they acted as negligent overseers of the managers they hired who then acted criminally. This would provide the impetus for investors to actively monitor the activities of their holdings, which I believe to be a necessary thing. To those claiming that this would put a chill on investment, I say "so what?". The lazy and stupid have no business investing in the first place, so IMO chilling them out of the markets would stand to be a good thing. They can change their minds any time they please and become intelligent investors. In truth, I doubt such a chill would occur in anything but the most vanishingly small degree. Where there is a buck to be made, people flock. Corporations would innovate and continue as they always have - just with a more notably sore awareness of their responsibilities to the shareholders and the greater market not to act criminally. Endanger your own corporation as much as you like - if the shareholders agree with it or fail to protest, then go to it. But harming outside parties through criminal acts would be met with the most unequivocally grim consequences. There would be no hint of fascism in my world. :)

It really is high time we shit or get off the pot. The current game has gone hopelessly stale and boring.

Zippyjuan
06-29-2010, 02:08 PM
So you would basically be a tyranical, isolationist dictator.

osan
06-29-2010, 02:25 PM
We should DEFINITELY default on the 'debt' owed to The Federal Reserve. Its fraudulent anyway and there goes half our debt overnight. We SHOULD pay back what we owe to foreign governments, though, as well as what is owed to citizens from bonds. But the phony debt from the Fed, yea, bye-bye motherfuckers, hope you all rot in hell!

Wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong....

Let us clear up a point of terminology. We do not "default" on the debt. We REPUDIATE it. There is a HUGE difference between the two. To default on the debt is, at the very least, to tacitly acknowledge that it is legitimate. Our debt is NOT legitimate - at least MY portion of it is not because I did not consent and am therefore contractually responsible to repay. Nor did I receive equal consideration, further absolving me from any obligation. There are more contractual elements that are not present in this issue, but let us leave it at this as these are more than sufficient to demonstrate the absence of contract in this case.

REPUDIATION, OTOH, is an assertion of the illegitimacy of the debt in its very fabric. Because the debt was not legitimate to begin with, I am not obliged to honor it. That is the question every single American needs to ask himself. Did you receive equal consideration? Did you consent to it EXPLICITLY? If the answers to even one of these questions is "no", then you have a decision to make: honor someone else's debt or repudiate - but NEVER default because in so doing you are telling the world that you acknowledge the debt as legitimate and this opens you up to very real trouble.

One further lesson here lies in the use of language. Words have meanings, and in the legal world they have very specific meanings and if you substitute one word for another ("default" for "repudiate") you could be sending your own ship to the bottom in real style and speed. Learn to be PRECISE in your use of language. Trust me, it is the SINGLE most important thing you will ever do in your entire life, bar none.

RM918
06-29-2010, 03:30 PM
I like the idea as well... and by liking it, I mean that it's preferable to the obvious alternative which is hyperinflation. The problem is that a huge chunk of the voting public would be flat out against it.

So how about a compromise... default on the portion of the debt owed to the Federal Reserve, which is a HUGE portion of it. I think that could be part of a winning platform.

Of course, here is what the teeming masses would rather have: Hey, this 'national debt' thing is inconvenient. Let's just ignore it like we always do, China isn't REALLY going to do anything - and if they do, we'll just invade! We've got nukes! (Yeah, I've actually heard this from someone. Not stupid so much as extremely ignorant of the state of the world, which I believe most Americans are like).

Anti Federalist
06-29-2010, 03:36 PM
Very, very, very valid point.

Good post.


Wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong....

Let us clear up a point of terminology. We do not "default" on the debt. We REPUDIATE it. There is a HUGE difference between the two. To default on the debt is, at the very least, to tacitly acknowledge that it is legitimate. Our debt is NOT legitimate - at least MY portion of it is not because I did not consent and am therefore contractually responsible to repay. Nor did I receive equal consideration, further absolving me from any obligation. There are more contractual elements that are not present in this issue, but let us leave it at this as these are more than sufficient to demonstrate the absence of contract in this case.

REPUDIATION, OTOH, is an assertion of the illegitimacy of the debt in its very fabric. Because the debt was not legitimate to begin with, I am not obliged to honor it. That is the question every single American needs to ask himself. Did you receive equal consideration? Did you consent to it EXPLICITLY? If the answers to even one of these questions is "no", then you have a decision to make: honor someone else's debt or repudiate - but NEVER default because in so doing you are telling the world that you acknowledge the debt as legitimate and this opens you up to very real trouble.

One further lesson here lies in the use of language. Words have meanings, and in the legal world they have very specific meanings and if you substitute one word for another ("default" for "repudiate") you could be sending your own ship to the bottom in real style and speed. Learn to be PRECISE in your use of language. Trust me, it is the SINGLE most important thing you will ever do in your entire life, bar none.