How realistic are we, really?

[osan]

For the past week I have been in a very different mind regarding the cause of reclaiming our liberties here in the United States. As I mentioned in another post, it may be that I've just had a tough week, but the questions still remain and I would be interested in opinions as to the thoughts I am posing. I am not stating anything positively, but just throwing out ideas and would like to know what people think regarding the question of how realistic are our goals.

First, let us make plain that those in power, the oligarchs, are playing for keeps. I do not for a moment believe that they have any intentions of resigning their stations in the world. Next, consider that those very bloodlines have spent more than a generation or two in acquiring and consolidating control over the very fabric of the material world - minerals, petroleum, finance, government, etc.

Given these two facts, what do we suppose their reaction will be if and when we the people arise and confidently begin asserting our rights and reclaiming our nation and the liberties it promises to protect? Will those in power simply toss their hands skyward and give up? I find that unlikely for reasons I hope would be obvious to everyone.

What, then, are they likely to do in the event of a fight? My thoughts are that because the oligarchs control so much, they will simply withdraw material goods from the markets - oil, minerals, manufactured goods, imported foods, and all manner of commodity items.

Recall that most meaningful manufacturing has been moved out of the USA. Where is our heavy industry? It is moved across the oceans. We still produce much of our own foods, but how long will that be able to continue when, because the petroleum has ceased flowing, there is no fuel, lubricants, fertilizer, pesticides, or herbicides for the farmers? No spare parts for equipment.

What will the US military do, assuming they side with us completely? Without logistical support, they will wilt in short order. What will our medical establishment do when supplies dry up?

What will Johnny Consumer do when the shelves go bare at Walmart?

The passive-aggressive response is the one that makes most sense to me. Withdraw enough goods from the markets and people are likely to toe the new line before long, or so it seems to me. I wonder how important liberty will be to those people with hungry children, or who need medical care that is no longer available.

Because a very small handful of seemingly very like-minded people hold such control over so much upon which we depend; because I believe they will not take laying down credible threats to their positions on the world stage; because I believe they are utterly ruthless and without pity, they will cut off the lifelines to those with the temerity to do more than just talk about liberty and will sit back and watch the mob consume itself as people eventually start murdering each other for basics such as food and water.

What do you all think? Agree? Disagree? Why? How do you think those in power will respond if we begin fighting back?

[Anti Federalist]

Worse case scenario?

The oligarchs, as you described them, release a weaponized human engineered virus and exterminate 99 percent of us.

[specsaregood]

Worse case scenario?

The oligarchs, as you described them, release a weaponized human engineered virus and exterminate 99 percent of us.

One can always count on AF to brighten one's day.

[Anti Federalist]

One can always count on AF to brighten one's day.

Sorry :(

[JCF]

Our time will come once the system collapses, until then all we can do is get the word out because we'll need all the help we can get once everything does go to hell (if ever). As far as fighting them directly, it's impossible. We are not much of a threat at this point... Why? because they know the people just don't give a shit.
-

I am not saying our efforts have been wasted, quite the contrary since plenty are coming around... But we're talking about 300+ Million here.

[specsaregood]

Sorry :(

No need; I was serious. :)

[sevin]

If the entire nation rose up and reclaimed their liberties overnight, then I think what you described would happen. But it's not going to happen overnight.

In the same way that these people have gradually gotten more and more powerful for generations, we must gradually reclaim that power. Right now, people all over the world are waking up to what governments and big banks have been doing, and it's up to us to keep waking more people up. With time, more liberty candidates will be elected to office and more libertarians will rise to power.

It is quite possible that TPTB have already reached the peak of their power and things are beginning to turn around. But it all starts with education. The people in charge now will not live forever, and if the next generation is more aware of the dangers of big government and central banking, things could get a lot better in a few more decades.

That's the optimistic viewpoint, anyway.

[Austrian Econ Disciple]

As Etienne de La Boetie pointed out. The power of tyrants rests in the support, and tacit permit by the population. Without that support/permission, he topples.

If enough of the people are sufficiently awakened, and educated, there is nothing to fear from the tyrants. This is why I promote activities, in all spheres unconnected with the State. Do not give them anything. How likely this is to come about? It is anyones guess.

I am sure though, that human perserverance, and ingenuity will prevail. Besides, one needs not fear death if you believe your cause is just. Whenever you feel down, imagine how William Wallace felt. No matter how bad it is, as long as you fight, and others as well we will prevail. The moment you give up, you have let the tyrants win.

My big thing is not how it will happen, as it will someday, but what will arise. Will we learn from past lessons, or repeat them (Social Contract balogne, etc.)?

[Chieppa1]

Don't know how "realistic" it is. But all I know is the idea personal liberty is more realistic then some liberal utopia where humans forget how to...well, be human. So we fight on. Using logic until they just blow us all up.

[heavenlyboy34]

I don't think it will be that bad if the majority of people unplug from government. It's mostly a wasteful beurocracy, so they'd starve if they stopped collecting money from the sheeple. (remember, government jobs are typically held by those too incompetent to handle a private sector job)

[Travlyr]

Excellent question, osan.

We are living in some amazing times. For the first time in the history of the world, the people have instant communication. This is an important development. We no longer have to rely on our masters & overlords, professors or MSM for our information. We no longer have to "believe" what we are told. We can find the truth. That has not ever been possible for the masses prior to the advent of the Internet.

IMHO, America's forefathers developed an amazing document designed to protect the rights of the common man. While the U.S. Constitution had many flaws and pretty much failed over the long term, it is an important road map for us who live in the 21st century. We can improve upon that construction because we have all the information that they had, plus we have 230+ years of additional history, and knowledge, from which to draw. We know that power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. We know that utopia is only a dream to strive towards, but it is not an achievable reality. Together, we can win and build a better future for us and our children.

Going forward, liberty can win for the people worldwide. It is up to the liberty movement to lead. It is up to us to make sure that the free-markets do not get the blame for the failures of the oligarchies. It is up to us to teach people about the blessings of liberty & about the prosperity of individual rights and property ownership.

I find "Liberty Forest" to be an educational tool far superior to any college course I have ever taken. The intellect on this forum is high level, and there are plenty of leaders sharing information while carefully watching each movement of the power elite. We can win.

[Working Poor]

The people in charge now will not live forever

Are you sure TPTB are people? Personally I think they might be something like vampires because they sure do like blood.

[TCE]

Let's say tptb exist and are truly a group of 10 or 20 men planning to control the world. Alright, well, there are only three options. 1. Stay neutral, don't take a side and whatever happens will happen. 2. Fight for freedom 3. Support the one world government side.

If option #2 is selected, we can create chinks in their armor and pushing back the inevitable. Eventually, if we keep gaining and the other side stays the same or loses ground, we can change the inevitable.

[AlexMerced]

Nothing hurts in a having a vision of utopia, you need a vision to work towards... if we got their, people would lose purpose, but we should still think that's where we want to go.

[tangent4ronpaul]

COMING TO A COUNTRY NEAR YOU!

http://www.enteringfreederry.com/images/ira_resurgence.jpg

:mad:

-t

[0zzy]

COMING TO A COUNTRY NEAR YOU!

http://www.enteringfreederry.com/images/ira_resurgence.jpg

:mad:

-t

WOMEN WITH GUNS?

Can't be. must be a man in drag.

[tangent4ronpaul]

WOMEN WITH GUNS?

Can't be. must be a man in drag.

The IRA is co-ed. The pic I was actually looking for was 2 schoolgirls with guns - like 10-12yo, from the same conflict.

It was a comment on what would happen if TPTB tried to starve the nation into compliance.

-t

[CUnknown]

What we're doing is absolutely realistic. People are saying that we can't fight them? It's the opposite, they can't fight us. What's we're doing is already war, from a certain perspective. It's a peaceful revolution, but it is a revolution nonetheless. And guess what? The powers-that-be are scared of us. The recent attacks on Rand have proven that, imo. We have officially past the "ignores us" and "ridicules us" stages.

They're scared. We should be energized more than worried.

They are very limited in the tools they have at their disposal. Let's face it, they've got maybe four effective weapons:

1) They can obviously collapse the monetary system.

2) They can round us up as enemies of the state.

3) They can steal elections with rigged voting machines.

4) They have the propaganda machine.


#4 is by far the most powerful of these, because it can be used against us with no repercussions. It is our major obstacle to overcome. Our fight is a battle for the hearts and minds of the American people.

If they keep stealing elections, someone will notice (certainly if there's even close to a free press). If they start rounding us up en masse, it will only hurt their propaganda efforts (think of how much more they would have to explain!). If they collapse the monetary system, it only hurts them as well. Think how many people have been woken up because the monetary system is starting to show signs of stress? They absolutely rely on a population that trusts them. They can't start to flagrantly violate that trust, at least not any more than they have. And even now, they have over-played their hand.

Military force is simply not an effective tool for them, period. It works on brown-skinned muslims, that's about it (i.e. people we don't care about). And even then, not nearly as effectively as they would like. Does anyone really believe that we couldn't defend America at least as well as the Iraqis defended Iraq? I think we could do much much better. Admittedly, Iraq was turned to shit, but the point is the US hasn't "won" in Iraq, not at all. We didn't "win" Vietnam either. You just can't win an occupation against a persistent enemy. And with the number of gun owners and the Revolutionary spirit that we have as a tradition in this country? Forget about it. Half the military would defect to our side before a single shot was fired.

The way I see it, they have the greatest propaganda machine ever created on this earth. It is the reason why they have been able to accomplish so much in a short century. But the internet is in the early stages of utterly destroying that machine.

I will start worrying when this site, and every one like it, is shut down because of "terrorist" activity. Once we're isolated again and deprived of information, that's when I start worrying. But I don't think they're going to play that card until it's already too late to stop us. I mean, think we have economic problems now? Shut down the internet and our economy goes into immediate cardiac arrest.

If the elites want to stop us, how realistic is that, really? I don't see how they can realistically put a stop to this, without at least some major concessions. They've already conceded a one-time Fed audit. It's not a real audit, sure, but we pushed them to the wall on this one. Our numbers are growing by leaps and bounds, and they are retreating.

All we do is keep trying, keep pushing, keep growing. And we'll see what their next move is. But are we being realistic? Damn straight we are.

[libertybrewcity]

i think our goals are very realistic. they have to be otherwise we will continue to be overrun by neocons, dems, and plutocrats. and if we can't reach our goals then we must try again

[aravoth]

Worse case scenario?

The oligarchs, as you described them, release a weaponized human engineered virus and exterminate 99 percent of us.

holy sheet!:eek:

[libertybrewcity]

cool pic too.

[Libertytree]

The paradigm called American politics is a failure, it can't be fixed. Voting, as it stands now is futile and only serves to keep people in their little matrix of R vs D vs L.

The system we think we're fighting for, the constitutional one was replaced by a corporation in 1933 and the Social Security Act sealed the deal, giving the citizens over to the bankers as collateral in perpetuity.

Until the U.S corporation is abolished and the true Constitution is reinstated, making us all sovereign people once again, we are and will be their slaves and every generation to come will be their slaves.

If the U.S corporation can't be eliminated peacefully, then the alternative will happen and it won't be pretty.

[Pauls' Revere]

One can always count on AF to brighten one's day.

Yeah, the x-37B is a spy plane.

http://www.space.com/businesstechnology/x-37b-space-plane-orbital-spy-100519.html

A robotic Air Force space plane that launched in late April under a shroud of secrecy is most likely an orbital spy vehicle, and not a space weapon or weapon platform, a former U.S. Air Force officer says in a new report

[tangent4ronpaul]

f they collapse the monetary system, it only hurts them as well. Think how many people have been woken up because the monetary system is starting to show signs of stress? They absolutely rely on a population that trusts them. They can't start to flagrantly violate that trust, at least not any more than they have. And even now, they have over-played their hand.


No, it helps them. That was actually in a Center for a New American Progress (neo-con) document. That it doesn't matter if you spend, spend, spend and then inflate the currency because the debt would be worth so little, it would be easy to pay off.

At the same time, look at the bank bailouts. They sat on the funds and used them to buy up mortgages. Currently the 6 chosen banks own 20% of US real estate or more. That's the game plan - a "I owe my sole to the company store" one where whe elites own everything and we are all peons.

-t

[CUnknown]

No, it helps them. That was actually in a Center for a New American Progress (neo-con) document. That it doesn't matter if you spend, spend, spend and then inflate the currency because the debt would be worth so little, it would be easy to pay off.

At the same time, look at the bank bailouts. They sat on the funds and used them to buy up mortgages. Currently the 6 chosen banks own 20% of US real estate or more. That's the game plan - a "I owe my sole to the company store" one where whe elites own everything and we are all peons.

-t

Yeah, I can see why they might want to collapse the economy. But, as far as the battle for hearts and minds, it hurts them. It is a good tool for them to gain wealth and influence, but it hurts them in the war against us. Really the best thing for them, if they only wanted to win the battle for the Republic, is to stop their abuses and compromise with us. We'd see our numbers dwindle away and eventually might settle on compromise with them, leaving them in power.

But if they refuse to compromise and decide to play hardball by collapsing the economy, rounding us up, or another method, it puts a serious strain on their primary resource (sheeple) and actually hurts them in the fight.

[osan]

As Etienne de La Boetie pointed out. The power of tyrants rests in the support, and tacit permit by the population. Without that support/permission, he topples.

This is probably true, though ever advancing technology places the assertion closer to the waters of arguability with each passing day.

That aside and assuming that it is still so, one must consider the likely support of the rest of the world, which is all the tyrant needs. The US government is not local the the United States. It is increasingly a branch of a larger global affair. Consider that there are seats of power outside the borders of the USA that may serve as refuge for the tyrant in the event of material rebellion here. Consider that the non-American world is likely to support the tyrant because he has done such an adept job of destroying the image of the USA in the eyes of that world. Will Europe help us? Not likely. Mexico would cheer. Canada would likely stay out of it.

If the tyrant is able to close off the ports and the rest of the world does nothing to stop him, how will the people of the USA fare against that?


If enough of the people are sufficiently awakened, and educated, there is nothing to fear from the tyrants.

That is a very big "if". Do you see the people of the other continents rising to our defense? If so, which ones? Believe it or not, the only significant nation I see as being an even remote possibility is Russia, and I would not bet the farm on them either.

Bear in mind that if money really is that important to these other nations, they will have nothing great to worry about because they will still be in business, only not with the USA and only for a short period as America is placed in the economic stranglehold.

The big players - Europe, China, much of South America, will perhaps not be swayed by token fortunes of cash. If the end game promises control of heretofore unimaginable magnitude and totality, I believe they will all pitch in and do their parts. As for the few nations that may do otherwise, they may also be brought to heel and if all else fails, a military blockade is always possible.


This is why I promote activities, in all spheres unconnected with the State. Do not give them anything. How likely this is to come about? It is anyones guess.

I fully agree with this. No reason to give up, but it behooves us to understand the real score and that success may be far less likely than we would like to believe. Such thinking keeps us on our toes. Never underestimate an adversary - it is the single worst mistake in strategy a man can ever make. Keep going, but understand the real extent of just how precarious our position is and try to plan accordingly.


I am sure though, that human perserverance, and ingenuity will prevail.

IMO this is a monumental error. We MAY prevail, but there are no guarantees, and as things stand today, I feel there is a strong likelihood that in the event of a real rebellion, even a peaceful one, we will have a very steep uphill fight.


Besides, one needs not fear death if you believe your cause is just.

Agreed. The question is whether there are enough people out there who agree with us.


Whenever you feel down, imagine how William Wallace felt. No matter how bad it is, as long as you fight, and others as well we will prevail. The moment you give up, you have let the tyrants win.

Good point. But again I admonish all to take a hard and very uncomfortable look at the present realities and try to come up with plans of action that will best serve the cause of freedom. Belief that right will prevail because it is right is not a sound basis for moving forward. Understand the enemy - who they are, what they want, what resources they control and how they are likely to respond to real threats against them.


My big thing is not how it will happen, as it will someday, but what will arise. Will we learn from past lessons, or repeat them (Social Contract balogne, etc.)?

Legitimate concerns and your are right to bear them in mind, but the more immediate concerns of how to throw off these usurpers should hold center stage in the minds of all who cherish freedom.

[Theocrat]

For the past week I have been in a very different mind regarding the cause of reclaiming our liberties here in the United States. As I mentioned in another post, it may be that I've just had a tough week, but the questions still remain and I would be interested in opinions as to the thoughts I am posing. I am not stating anything positively, but just throwing out ideas and would like to know what people think regarding the question of how realistic are our goals.

First, let us make plain that those in power, the oligarchs, are playing for keeps. I do not for a moment believe that they have any intentions of resigning their stations in the world. Next, consider that those very bloodlines have spent more than a generation or two in acquiring and consolidating control over the very fabric of the material world - minerals, petroleum, finance, government, etc.

Given these two facts, what do we suppose their reaction will be if and when we the people arise and confidently begin asserting our rights and reclaiming our nation and the liberties it promises to protect? Will those in power simply toss their hands skyward and give up? I find that unlikely for reasons I hope would be obvious to everyone.

What, then, are they likely to do in the event of a fight? My thoughts are that because the oligarchs control so much, they will simply withdraw material goods from the markets - oil, minerals, manufactured goods, imported foods, and all manner of commodity items.

Recall that most meaningful manufacturing has been moved out of the USA. Where is our heavy industry? It is moved across the oceans. We still produce much of our own foods, but how long will that be able to continue when, because the petroleum has ceased flowing, there is no fuel, lubricants, fertilizer, pesticides, or herbicides for the farmers? No spare parts for equipment.

What will the US military do, assuming they side with us completely? Without logistical support, they will wilt in short order. What will our medical establishment do when supplies dry up?

What will Johnny Consumer do when the shelves go bare at Walmart?

The passive-aggressive response is the one that makes most sense to me. Withdraw enough goods from the markets and people are likely to toe the new line before long, or so it seems to me. I wonder how important liberty will be to those people with hungry children, or who need medical care that is no longer available.

Because a very small handful of seemingly very like-minded people hold such control over so much upon which we depend; because I believe they will not take laying down credible threats to their positions on the world stage; because I believe they are utterly ruthless and without pity, they will cut off the lifelines to those with the temerity to do more than just talk about liberty and will sit back and watch the mob consume itself as people eventually start murdering each other for basics such as food and water.

What do you all think? Agree? Disagree? Why? How do you think those in power will respond if we begin fighting back?

Well, one thing you need to realize is that we are in a "war of the worldviews." Those oligarchs you refer to operate on a set of standards and beliefs which compel them to behave in the way they do. Essentially, it comes from a secularized outlook on life, where there is no God. Since He doesn't exist, those oligarchs have made themselves gods, and they seek to rule the world as the whims of their lusts drive them to do.

If you couple that with the ideas of evolution and natural selection, those oligarchs are simply "more evolved" in their intellect and material gain than most people, as they perceive it. Natural selection, both in nature and in societies, will ensure that the weak and poor die off, as those oligarchs continue to take over resources around the world. It's just nature taking its course.

Now, if one has a worldview which deduces to such a reality as I've described above, then there is nothing "liberty-driven" people can do. After all, they are at the bottom of the evolutionary chain of sorts. Just as dictators like Hitler, Pol Pot, Stalin, Mao, and others claimed themselves to be the supreme standards of what's right, what's free, and what's true, those oligarchs today are doing the same. So, from their standpoint, they see "liberty-minded" people as a threat to the natural course of their world, and if necessary, they will take steps to eliminate them, as a predator does to its prey in nature.

So, it's a basic matter of philosophical worldviews that is at stake here. And when God is taken out of the equation, one cannot expect the situation to balance out. Any secular solution to the problems mentioned above will miss the mark, because the "oligarchy" problem is itself secular. The root of our problems today are deeper than economics. It's just sad that so many "freedom fighters" only scratch the surface when seeking to solve the issues of our day.

[pacelli]

Recall that most meaningful manufacturing has been moved out of the USA. Where is our heavy industry? It is moved across the oceans. We still produce much of our own foods, but how long will that be able to continue when, because the petroleum has ceased flowing, there is no fuel, lubricants, fertilizer, pesticides, or herbicides for the farmers? No spare parts for equipment.

<>

What will Johnny Consumer do when the shelves go bare at Walmart?

<>

What do you all think? Agree? Disagree? Why? How do you think those in power will respond if we begin fighting back?

I agree. For your consideration as far as political "reality":

YouTube - George Gordon- Republicans, Democrats, and Ron Paul.wmv (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8JYrmI-Tt0g)

[johnrocks]

I see your point, I had to take my elderly Mom to the Doctor yesterday and while we were waiting , there were a few old timers talking politics, this one lady in her 70's or so started bashing Obamacare and socialized medicine and in the same damn breath complained about the 20% cut in physician's pay regarding Medicare, I lost it! I started my spill, telling her and that entire room, they didn't want to cut government, they just wanted to cut the other guy's government, they still wanted their socialized Medicare!

We still gotta fight and try though, I got in a few words about Ron Paul and started talking about him and his stands and people were agreeing with his stands, it was my own moment of "shock and awe":p

[osan]

What we're doing is absolutely realistic.

From the standpoint of what the alternative holds, I agree. I guess I should have asked a better question: what are the likely responses of the tyrants to the various assaults we, the freedom-minded people, may bring upon them?


People are saying that we can't fight them? It's the opposite, they can't fight us.Given their current position in the grander scheme of things, they do not have to fight us, which has been the central point. They need only withdraw support of the US economy. Fifty years ago this would have been impossible because we were a self-sufficient nation. We no longer are even close to self-sufficiency and that is the point upon which our prospects turn. What will typical Americans do when there is little food for their children - no medical care available? Couple that stick with a carrot: "You're hungry and we, your beneficent government want to help you, but we need help, too. Tell you what, sign these, put on that uniform, take this training and that gun and go out and kill all these mal-contents and your family will be well taken care of. Deal?"

If 30 million of us stand for liberty and 270 million stand against, we the minority are going to have some serious problems, do you not think?


What's we're doing is already war, from a certain perspective. It's a peaceful revolution, but it is a revolution nonetheless.We fully agree. Now, as we advance and the position of the oligarchs becomes threatened, what do you suppose their responses will be?


And guess what? The powers-that-be are scared of us. As well they should be, making them all the more dangerous to us.


The recent attacks on Rand have proven that, imo. We have officially past the "ignores us" and "ridicules us" stages.
They are simply ramping up according to a more or less standard protocol. If ignoring the problem doesn't fix it, marginalize.


They're scared. We should be energized more than worried.Here I must respectfully and vehemently disagree. We should be shitting masonry nails for a proper understanding of our enemy. Anyone not filling their pants at this point does not understand the foe sufficiently. You must see who they are and what it is over which they wield control. They do not need guns and tanks and soldiers willing to kill us as primary means when they have the ultimate weapon of economic control coupled with the successfully completed campaign to de-industrialize the USA. It's a done deal and we let them do it - let there be no mistakes about it. How do we successfully engage in the economic warfare that is being waged upon us and the wick of which may yet be turned way up against us? That is the central question with which people should be concerning themselves.


They are very limited in the tools they have at their disposal. Let's face it, they've got maybe four effective weapons:

1) They can obviously collapse the monetary system.A non-trivial weapon, I might point out.


2) They can round us up as enemies of the state.
No need at this point - not while the greater mass poses only a potential threat. This is a clean-up detail for afterward, save in some carefully chosen cases that may prove useful at this time.


3) They can steal elections with rigged voting machines.Been going on for some time. In any event, this is utterly irrelevant in the case of open conflict, peaceful or otherwise.


4) They have the propaganda machine.
Another powerful mechanism whose significance should not be discounted in any way or degree.

You forgot #5: Control over the economy via finance and material control over natural resources and the export policies of other nations. IOW, they have their hands on the economic spigot. How long does a human have when their breathable air is cut off?


#4 is by far the most powerful of these, because it can be used against us with no repercussions. It is our major obstacle to overcome. Our fight is a battle for the hearts and minds of the American people.#5 is the most powerful, and by a yawning margin. Propaganda will always be useful, but when the sources of sustenance are under one's control, you can pretty well get anyone to do whatever bidding you care to name.


If they keep stealing elections, someone will notice (certainly if there's even close to a free press). If they start rounding us up en masse, it will only hurt their propaganda efforts (think of how much more they would have to explain!). If they collapse the monetary system, it only hurts them as well. Think how many people have been woken up because the monetary system is starting to show signs of stress? None of this is relevant in an open confrontation. These are "nice to have" items and essential when the people are asleep in front of their televisions. They are mainly irrelevant when those people wake up and demand a halt to the three ring circus. At that point the gloves come off by resorting to more unequivocal measures.


They absolutely rely on a population that trusts them. They can't start to flagrantly violate that trust, at least not any more than they have. And even now, they have over-played their hand.
But they can. When all pretense is discarded, trust will fall by the wayside, at least for the time being and it will be a bare knuckles affair and we must be clear about just how big their knuckles are and how well trained.


Military force is simply not an effective tool for them, period. And that is why it will not be used, save in certain well chosen circumstances. Economic artillery destroy that which no hydrogen bomb could so much as cinge.


Does anyone really believe that we couldn't defend America at least as well as the Iraqis defended Iraq?Yes. Iraqis and Afghans live skinny, especially the latter. Americans, by and large, don't know the first thing about living lean. When the food is cut way off, where do you suppose most Americans will find themselves? If your answer is anything other than "in the toilet", you are fooling yourself.


The way I see it, they have the greatest propaganda machine ever created on this earth. It is the reason why they have been able to accomplish so much in a short century. But the internet is in the early stages of utterly destroying that machine.Which may be why we have seen such a wild acceleration in the apparent agenda. It may be that they feel the time is nigh upon them to finish the job lest the network foul up their plans. I do not know for certain.


I will start worrying when this site, and every one like it, is shut down because of "terrorist" activity. Once we're isolated again and deprived of information, that's when I start worrying. But I don't think they're going to play that card until it's already too late to stop us. I mean, think we have economic problems now? Shut down the internet and our economy goes into immediate cardiac arrest.Bad position IMO. Underestimating one's foe is an almost universally fatal error.


If the elites want to stop us, how realistic is that, really?
It is as easy as choking off the economy, and they can most assuredly do that.



I don't see how they can realistically put a stop to this, without at least some major concessions. Then I submit you have not considered their position with sufficient care. I am not saying they are unstoppable, but that they are close to it.


They've already conceded a one-time Fed audit. It's not a real audit, sure, but we pushed them to the wall on this one. Our numbers are growing by leaps and bounds, and they are retreating.Do not allow yourself to be fooled by such window dressing. These are circus acts designed to make you think you are getting somewhere. Forget about them. Be partly relieved when the Fed is gone and nothing even remotely equivalent has taken its place.


All we do is keep trying, keep pushing, keep growing. And we'll see what their next move is. Agreed.

[MelissaWV]

Worse case scenario?

The oligarchs, as you described them, release a weaponized human engineered virus and exterminate 99 percent of us.

You skipped some steps, but I know you know that.

The oligarchs wouldn't simply release a weaponized human-engineered virus. THAT is too difficult to control, and it would depend greatly upon the oligarchs, their families, and other selected worthy people being immunized. There are too many risks.

No, the easiest thing would be to release a fast-acting, fast-dying virus in various areas, and then to release cures and vaccines. The vaccines themselves would then (oops?) cause illness and death over time. Avoiding a shot is much better, especially to those in the know, than depending on one.

This would leave only a few really worried people who were somehow immune and didn't die, and a lot of "kooks" who didn't take the vaccine. 1%.

[SooperDave]

I believe the coming monetary collapse will create some chaotic scenarios that may throw off THEIR calculated plans. People will want answers and a good % of those who are smart yet currently ignorant (about who's in control) will learn the truth.

Personally, I think the coming monetary collapse coinciding with more leaked details of the horrors of these overseas missions will usher in a more humble gov't and foreign policy. Not more to the right but just less taxes, less intervention, less nanny state, etc.

The current system is unsustainable and will collapse. Politicians will have to change their approach in order to stay in their roles.

[CUnknown]

Given their current position in the grander scheme of things, they do not have to fight us, which has been the central point. They need only withdraw support of the US economy. Fifty years ago this would have been impossible because we were a self-sufficient nation. We no longer are even close to self-sufficiency and that is the point upon which our prospects turn.

They can't completely shut off the economy. They aren't all powerful. This isn't some giant monolith we are facing... for example.. corporations in general are our enemies, but corporations represent powerful interests that aren't all on the same page about everything. A good example would be shutting down the internet, something that might be useful for the state to fight us. But how would Google, Yahoo, Apple and Microsoft respond to that?

If they shut down parts of the economy, a black market would suddenly spring up. People would start to become self-sufficient again in a much shorter period of time that you apparently believe.. Look how much money and effort they are spending on the War on Drugs, and how is that going?

They simply don't have the ability or the balls to shut down the economy. Even if they could, they would lose almost their entire fortunes by doing so.. and so they wouldn't.

A dollar crash, as bad as it would be, is the worst thing economically speaking that we'd have to worry about. Complete shutting down of the economy is simply out of their reach.


they have the ultimate weapon of economic control coupled with the successfully completed campaign to de-industrialize the USA.

You seem to think this was a conspiracy to weaken the US when actually it was done piece by piece, with help from the government of course (e.g. NAFTA, minimum wage laws), for the profits of individual companies. Capital tends to flow to places with lower costs of labor... sure, this was helped along in a semi-conspiratorial way by the WTO, World Bank, etc.. but it was completed by individual companies, for their own benefit. It's not like they would have done this if it wasn't profitable, and that was their sole motivation.


What will typical Americans do when there is little food for their children - no medical care available? Couple that stick with a carrot: "You're hungry and we, your beneficent government want to help you, but we need help, too. Tell you what, sign these, put on that uniform, take this training and that gun and go out and kill all these mal-contents and your family will be well taken care of. Deal?"

If they are crashing the economy, people will be much less trusting and much less likely to help the government, not more likely. Their crashing the economy will give us the biggest boost to recruitment for our cause we've ever seen, and at the same time, their police forces and military will be drained -- because the government won't be able to pay their salaries and pensions anymore!

Looking at it another way, if they crash the economy, everyone in America will have no choice but to wake up. And they're going to be very very angry. I just don't share this view of the American population that we're weak and dependent. Sure, we may be fat and lazy now, but just a small taste of the real world is going to send us back to our cultural roots. Our culture is one of self-sufficient pioneers and revolutionaries.. I just can't believe that this is so far dead -- killed in a mere 100-200 years? -- as you think it is. I guess I'm saying I still believe in the American spirit. :)


When all pretense is discarded, trust will fall by the wayside, at least for the time being and it will be a bare knuckles affair [...]

I don't see how they can possibly win without any trust from the people. Once we stop trusting them as a nation, it's over for them. We are not a totalitarian state yet. We're not a crushed people yet. We're strong and we're waking up.


When the food is cut way off, where do you suppose most Americans will find themselves? If your answer is anything other than "in the toilet", you are fooling yourself.

So, we're going to go from "The government will take care of us, we're rich and free" to "The government owns us, we are slaves" in the blink of an eye, without any revolt phase? The way I see it, when the food is cut off, that's when we take the gardening equipment out of its box and the guns out of the gun locker. I think you are underestimating the pride of the people, their unwillingness to be slaves. The problem now, is that they think they are free, lol.


Then I submit you have not considered their position with sufficient care. I am not saying they are unstoppable, but that they are close to it.

Maybe I haven't, but it's fun talking about. :)


Do not allow yourself to be fooled by such window dressing [the Sanders fake audit]. These are circus acts designed to make you think you are getting somewhere. Forget about them. Be partly relieved when the Fed is gone and nothing even remotely equivalent has taken its place.

I agree, but you have to admit that this represents the Fed on the retreat. Any kind of audit, even a mostly fake one, has never ever happened before. They didn't want to let this one happen either, but we forced it on them. As weak and as lame as it is, it's a victory we should be proud of. I mean not too proud, but a little proud.

I'm not saying the road ahead is going to be easy, or that we're going to win quickly. But we're going to win. As long as we keep at it as hard as we can, we're going to win. I've never been more sure of that as I am now. Everything that is happening, with the Tea Parties, and with Rand, is making me more and more confident in us, and less and less sure of the strength of our opponents.

Freedom is on the march! :D

[Travlyr]

They can't completely shut off the economy. They aren't all powerful. This isn't some giant monolith we are facing... for example.. corporations in general are our enemies, but corporations represent powerful interests that aren't all on the same page about everything.

Corporations are not my enemy. Corporations are simply organizations. The IMF the UN, and World bank are my enemy. They are the monolith that controls the money supply, governments and the people.


I'm not saying the road ahead is going to be easy, or that we're going to win quickly. But we're going to win. As long as we keep at it as hard as we can, we're going to win. I've never been more sure of that as I am now. Everything that is happening, with the Tea Parties, and with Rand, is making me more and more confident in us, and less and less sure of the strength of our opponents.

Freedom is on the march! :D

We can win, but we must correctly identify the enemy.

[Travlyr]

"I care not what puppet is placed on the throne of England to rule the Empire. The man that controls Britain's money supply controls the British Empire.
And I control the money supply." - Baron Nathan Mayer Rothschild

Today's version: Whoever controls the money of the world, controls the world. - The IMF & World Bank... direct descendants of Meyer Amschel Bauer..

[Anti Federalist]

You skipped some steps, but I know you know that.

The oligarchs wouldn't simply release a weaponized human-engineered virus. THAT is too difficult to control, and it would depend greatly upon the oligarchs, their families, and other selected worthy people being immunized. There are too many risks.

No, the easiest thing would be to release a fast-acting, fast-dying virus in various areas, and then to release cures and vaccines. The vaccines themselves would then (oops?) cause illness and death over time. Avoiding a shot is much better, especially to those in the know, than depending on one.

This would leave only a few really worried people who were somehow immune and didn't die, and a lot of "kooks" who didn't take the vaccine. 1%.

Yes, my reply was short and sweet with no nuance.

You're absolutely right that there would be more steps involved, unless TPTB just went completely off their rocker and went for the "nuclear option".

[CUnknown]

Corporations are not my enemy. Corporations are simply organizations. The IMF the UN, and World bank are my enemy. They are the monolith that controls the money supply, governments and the people.

We can win, but we must correctly identify the enemy.

I would still say that in general, corporations are antagonistic to the ideas of liberty. They hate free markets, they love totalitarian states like China where labor is cheap, etc. And remember that banks are corporations, news media are corporations.

[osan]

I believe the coming monetary collapse will create some chaotic scenarios that may throw off THEIR calculated plans. People will want answers and a good % of those who are smart yet currently ignorant (about who's in control) will learn the truth.

You are not the first person I have seen say this, but I find it difficult to agree. The coming collapse will not be the result of mistaken action, but rather from design. I'm an ex-Wall-Streeter and I can tell you that the people in those markets, by and large, know what they are doing. Do you imagine that the Federal Reserve Bank of the United States, the world's most powerful corporation, who can and does hire all the top talent in the world didn't know that their lending policies were a train wreck in the making? There is not much of which I can claim certainty of belief in this life, but that this was a planned event I am comfortably certain of.

Consider these most basic facts of life: The Fed is a for-profit company. They have been lending money as low as 0%. Given a nominal inflation rate of about 3.4%, it literally means that they are paying their customers to haul the cash away. Does that make sense to you? No company can do that and remain in business. The people at the Fed are not stupid. Therefore, there must be a plan behind this seemingly idiotic practice. I believe the 0% money served the role of bait to draw in the fishies. Naturally they came in droves and we now are suffering the consequences. The $64 question here is "why?". Why would they do such a thing, knowing what was almost certain to happen in response? There's something for you to gnaw on awhile.


Personally, I think the coming monetary collapse coinciding with more leaked details of the horrors of these overseas missions will usher in a more humble gov't and foreign policy. Not more to the right but just less taxes, less intervention, less nanny state, etc.

How I wish I could believe that, but in all honesty I think this is hopelessly naive.


The current system is unsustainable and will collapse. Politicians will have to change their approach in order to stay in their roles.

Politicians have precious little to say about it, IMO. There is a lot of palm grease that's been applied all around and the politicial boys are, by and large, beholden to third parties whose interests I suspect are in some stern conflict with yours and mine. Little is as it appears on the surface, IMO.

[Travlyr]

I would still say that in general, corporations are antagonistic to the ideas of liberty. They hate free markets, they love totalitarian states like China where labor is cheap, etc. And remember that banks are corporations, news media are corporations.

Corporations are not evil; in most cases they are preferable to partnerships. The butcher, the baker and the candlestick maker are incorporated. And why not? Incorporations limit liability for actions taken by persons of corporations. Personal property is protected from leaches that want to get rich quick by hiring a lawyer to dig through deep pockets. Incorporating is also a good way to for several people to invest in large projects that are out of the scope of individuals. If incorporations did not exist, then how would large projects be completed?

The problem with incorporations is that they become corrupt by becoming public/private partnerships with government. i.e. passing laws that restrict competition. That could be corrected with honest leadership and justice departments.

The problem with central banks is that they steal from the taxpayer to line their own pockets, they start wars to profit from nation's debt, they manipulate markets to maximize profit, they control governments to keep their position against the people. Central bankers are evil.

[osan]

The[ oligarchs] can't completely shut off the economy. They aren't all powerful. This isn't some giant monolith we are facing... for example.. corporations in general are our enemies, but corporations represent powerful interests that aren't all on the same page about everything.

The oligarchs do not have to shut off everything - they only need to shut off the *right* things. Key difference. Are you suggesting they do not possess this ability?


A good example would be shutting down the internet, something that might be useful for the state to fight us. But how would Google, Yahoo, Apple and Microsoft respond to that?In such a case at that under consideration, the internet is irrelevant. Let people talk and rage and rant all day. When they get hungry enough, their mouths will shut as they go in search of food, forsaking all else including the net.


If they shut down parts of the economy, a black market would suddenly spring up.And where, pray tell, will the oil come from? We produce domestically still, but we would take a huge hit on availability. What about fundamental commodities from abroad? When those dry up, what do we DO? There is no such thing as a black market if there is nothing to trade, and in such a case the question becomes one of what, exactly, will people seek? Food, first and foremost, and medical (arguably) second. The rest pales in comparison. Given that a very large proportion of our food now comes from abroad, meaning that it can be cut off like that, what would we, the people, do when we did not have enough to eat? Would we last a year? Two? Five?


People would start to become self-sufficient again in a much shorter period of time that you apparently believe.Maybe, maybe not. The profound depths of the ignorance of a vast proportion of the people of this nation may be lost on you. I have lived all over the USA, coast to coast and while many would indeed adapt, equally many would not and those would be the ones with which to concern yourself. I doubt they will simply lay down and die.


They simply don't have the ability or the balls to shut down the economy.What is your evidence of this?


Even if they could, they would lose almost their entire fortunes by doing so.How is this so?


You seem to think this was a conspiracy to weaken the US when actually it was done piece by piece, with help from the government of course (e.g. NAFTA, minimum wage laws), for the profits of individual companies.You seem to think that the people sitting at the roots of policy are so unfathomably stupid that they had no idea what was going to result from those policies. At the very least I would say that they did not care. I cannot say with utter certainty that this was a conspiracy to weaken, one to enrich the few, one to serve another purpose altogfether, or just happenstance. I can, however, say that it looks like a duck and quacks like one. I must, therefore, at least consider the possibility that it is, in fact, a duck.


Capital tends to flow to places with lower costs of labor... sure, this was helped along in a semi-conspiratorial way by the WTO, World Bank, etc.. but it was completed by individual companies, for their own benefit. It's not like they would have done this if it wasn't profitable, and that was their sole motivation.You agree that WTO/World Bank conspired. Good. The corporations you cite had NO option here. Once the first company in a given market took up the bait, the rest were compelled to follow suit, make no mistake about that. If Company A move to China and their labor costs drop from an average of $10/hour (likely higher) to $0.50/hour, there is NO POSSIBLY WAY (read that again if you must) for those companies remaining in the USA to compete in that market. It is utterly IMPOSSIBLE, given the basis upon which the markets operate, which is primarily focused on PRICE. When those $350 pairs of Nikes can now retail for $60, you had best bet your ass that Reebok and everyone else will be compelled to move to China or go out of business altogether.

Your example here drives home my very point: leverage. When one's levers are large, small changes in pressure cause large things to move. Those controlling the basic resources wield impossibly long levers. Dry up the commodities and manufacturing grinds to a halt.

I will also point out that you have apparently failed to consider a central element of my "theme", so to speak: the rest of the world will go on per the usual, the USA being isolated. No mean task, but not impossible by any means, IMO.


If they are crashing the economy, people will be much less trusting and much less likely to help the government, not more likely.Irrelevant. Local vestiges of government are only the immediate means of carrying out policy. Root government, the real decision makers, go remote out of harm's reach and do what they do from Geneva or Paris or London or wherever.


Their crashing the economy will give us the biggest boost to recruitment for our cause we've ever seenFor a while, I fully agree. And what then, when after 6 months people grow weary of being hungry all the time? You have not responded to that question. In a nation where I have literally witnessed people melt down because their latte wasn't foamy enough, how do you suppose such people will hang when the going gets just a little bit tough? You HAVE to think in terms of "divide and conquer". As I wrote before, if 30 million of "us" are up against 270 million of "them", how do you think we are going to fare? That aside, how do you think the oligarchs are going to fare as we each each other alive? Do you believe that those in power will not do everything within their grasp to set us against each other?


, and at the same time, their police forces and military will be drained -- because the government won't be able to pay their salaries and pensions anymore!
You're just not getting the real picture here.


Looking at it another way, if they crash the economy, everyone in America will have no choice but to wake up.
Nonsense. The economy will not just be "crashed" in a vacuum. There will be carrots put out there for those whose committments to "the cause" are either tenuous or non-existent. That, I can assure you, will constitute a very large body of our citizens, and I suspect that many of those people will be more than willing to exchange their loyalties and a willingness to follow orders for food and the illusion of security. And their continued ability for net.gaming, of course. One cannot leave out the important things. :(


I guess I'm saying I still believe in the American spirit. :)As do I, but I am not yet convinced that there are enough of us to overcome the tidal wave that is set against us. I hope that there are - I am in no mood to go into my old age living the nightmare of 1984.


We're not a crushed people yet. We're strong and we're waking up.Agreed 100%. But will we have enough to prevail? That is anything but a forgone conclusion, either way, IMO.


So, we're going to go from "The government will take care of us, we're rich and free" to "The government owns us, we are slaves" in the blink of an eye, without any revolt phase?I never said nor implied such a thing. My original question was, in fact, what will the oligarchs' response likely be when we do revolt?




I agree, but you have to admit that this represents the Fed on the retreat. Any kind of audit, even a mostly fake one, has never ever happened before. They didn't want to let this one happen either, but we forced it on them. As weak and as lame as it is, it's a victory we should be proud of. I mean not too proud, but a little proud.On the run, or cleverly and adeptly side-stepping the real issue, even if only for awhile? Bear in mind that the Fed is a big investment of the power trust, not to be given up lightly. Naturally they will try to defend it, but in the end they can let it go if they must.


I'm not saying the road ahead is going to be easy, or that we're going to win quickly. But we're going to win. As long as we keep at it as hard as we can, we're going to win. I've never been more sure of that as I am now. Everything that is happening, with the Tea Parties, and with Rand, is making me more and more confident in us, and less and less sure of the strength of our opponents.

Freedom is on the march! :DI hope your confidence is not misplaced. I certainly want to believe the same, but my sense of assessment tells me that nothing is conclusively forgone in this game.

[osan]

I would still say that in general, corporations are antagonistic to the ideas of liberty.

I would say that this is true after a fashion - they are hypocrites wanting freedom for themselves while denying the same to others.


They hate free markets, they love totalitarian states like China where labor is cheap, etc. And remember that banks are corporations, news media are corporations.

What they really like is rigged arbitrage. Arbitrage is the buying of some commodity in one market and selling it in another, presumably at a higher price.

There are two rules of arbitrage:


opportunities are rare and,
they are short-lived.

In a properly free market, this is the case for the usual reasons of supply and demand. In rigged markets such as what we currently enjoy, it is not the case.

For example, the discrepancy between the US and Chinese labor markets represents a stupendously giant arbitrage opportunity where the commodity of human labor is being bought directly at dirt prices and resold indirectly as manufactured goods in far wealthier markets and at far higher rates. This is not an evil thing in and of itself when the comparative advantage in labor is an honest one. The evil lies in the fact that the Chinese government violates the second rule of arbitrage by artificially and indefinitely maintaining the lifespan of the opportunity. In a proper free market, as the demand for labor increases, so would the cost. Try forming a union in China and see what becomes of your ability to continue breathing.

Ignorant people are complaining about the failure of "free-market capitalism", when what has in fact failed is "rigged-market capitalism". The two are not the same, the differences being subtle to the untrained eye, yet fundamental in their structure and the results they produce. The general ignorance of economics is appalling and frightening. The US public school system and most of its universities have done their jobs ever so very well.

[TheBlackPeterSchiff]

That is why I advocate Bailouts everyday, unfettered unemployment benefits, Healthcare for all, more and more stimulus.

Those boneheads aren't going to relinquish their power to the people, especially though a "democratic process" I support our liberty candidates, but do you honestly believe they can force real change? Really?

No, it can only happen when this entire thing collapses, and it it will.

[constituent]

What, then, are they likely to do in the event of a fight? My thoughts are that because the oligarchs control so much, they will simply withdraw material goods from the markets - oil, minerals, manufactured goods, imported foods, and all manner of commodity items.

As they clamp down on the border and begin refusing to issue passports to dissidents, and begin limiting the amount of money one is "allowed" to wire outside of the country.

Wait, that sounds eerily similar to the border policy folks around here have been advocating...




What will the US military do, assuming they side with us completely? Without logistical support, they will wilt in short order. What will our medical establishment do when supplies dry up?

As long as your sentimentality leads you to falsely believe in an "us," you're doomed to a future that will be punctuated by failure/disappointment.

Some of those who chant "liberty" the loudest will turn around and be the first to deprive you of it. That's just life.

It used to piss me off, but now I've just come to accept it. Most people, particularly "liberty leaning," republican "constitutional conservatives," really mean "liberty for me, f* you buddy," and "restore [some of] the constitution!"

Don't be suckered by sloganeering.



What will Johnny Consumer do when the shelves go bare at Walmart?

Well, the ones that are already robbing and looting will continue robbing and looting. The other "Johnny Consumers" will find on short-order that they've become "Johnny Producers," and--as it turns out--they're quite good at it! :)



Because a very small handful of seemingly very like-minded people hold such control over so much upon which we depend; because I believe they will not take laying down credible threats to their positions on the world stage;


Name one credible threat to their positions on the world stage... just one.

SRSLY

[osan]

I don't think it will be that bad if the majority of people unplug from government.

Agreed except that the majority will not be allowed to do so. One of the hallmarks of modern tyranny is that nobody is allowed to opt out. Go into antiquity and we find that people could fall between the cracks and as long as they kept a low profile they stood a reasonable chance of being left alone. Caesar did not care to seek out the smaller crumbs that fell from his table, so to speak, diminishing returns being what they tended to be in the eras of mostly manual labor.

Today, in the era of digitally mechanized technology, the cost to government to reclaim even the smallest crumbs falls daily. The real challenge for them lies in finding all the possible ways of plugging everyone into their databases, which serve as extensions of their engines of environmental awareness. The computers run 24x7 and cost next to nothing to acquire and operate. They run at blistering speed and are capable of processing vast territories of data in small amounts of time. In principle, this enables them to squeeze every red cent of obedience and compliance from every breathing soul. If that fact fails to scare one sheet-white, then I submit such persons have more nerve than brains.

[osan]

Name one credible threat to their positions on the world stage... just one.

Simple refusal to cooperate, for one.

Use of the remaining formal mechanisms by which to officially boot them from our shores. That potential still exists, and if the people of the USA came together just enough to work that solution, you can bet your bottom dollar that it would pose a serious threat to the oligarchs on at least two levels.

First, the goal is global hegemony, not almost-global hegemony. Therefore, America must be brought under control. If nothing else, it becomes a matter of wills and egos not to be thwarted by the upstart Americans who refuse to be brought to heel.

Second, there is the threat of example. The rest of the world is conquered and those people accept their yokes. Americans do not and the world sees this and as their conditions deteriorate, they could possibly start asking themselves why it is that they cannot also enjoy better conditions - to begin questioning the master's station.

So, as you see there are at least two very serious threats to the oligarchs' designs and their position in the grander scheme of things. I am sure there are more, but would bet that they all derive from these two basic truths.

The American people MUST be crushed in order to achieve total effective control. This is a strategic mandate. A renegade nation always threatens to get others thinking "bad" thoughts.

[Travlyr]

That is why I advocate Bailouts everyday, unfettered unemployment benefits, Healthcare for all, more and more stimulus.

Those boneheads aren't going to relinquish their power to the people, especially though a "democratic process" I support our liberty candidates, but do you honestly believe they can force real change? Really?

No, it can only happen when this entire thing collapses, and it it will.

You are absolutely spot on, IMHO. I would love to see mostly liberty minded constitutional statesmen in government, but it aint gonna happen. We will be lucky to get one new liberty minded individual into office this election. At that rate... 434 x 2 = 868 years to replace the House and 100 x 6 = 600 years to replace the Senate.

It is time to take a different tack. Us liberty minded folks should pool our resources together and build a Liberty Broadcasting Network so that we can counter the media. On the 16th of June, the imbecile Chris Matthews is doing a hit piece for his masters & overlords on us. As it currently stands, we have absolutely no efficient way to defend ourselves against assholes like him. H.L. Hunt wanted to build a liberty network, but he knew he would be assassinated. The masters and overlords cannot assassinate all of us.

I propose we quit wasting our money on our liberty candidates & form... wait for it.... a corporation. A liberty broadcasting corporation for TV, Internet, Radio & a Magazine under the direction of the Mises Institute (in order to insure integrity). Honest History, Free-Markets, Liberty, Good Movies, Scantily Clad Women, Commercials that don't insult intelligence... heck I would probably start watching TV again...

I have $100 to start. Any takers?

[constituent]

Simple refusal to cooperate, for one.

I agree with you there. However, that would require some sort of mass awakening that I just don't see happening. That's not a valid excuse for abandoning hope though, and I try to open people up to exactly what you're talking about.

It's fun to agree. :)

[virgil47]

Well, one thing you need to realize is that we are in a "war of the worldviews." Those oligarchs you refer to operate on a set of standards and beliefs which compel them to behave in the way they do. Essentially, it comes from a secularized outlook on life, where there is no God. Since He doesn't exist, those oligarchs have made themselves gods, and they seek to rule the world as the whims of their lusts drive them to do.

If you couple that with the ideas of evolution and natural selection, those oligarchs are simply "more evolved" in their intellect and material gain than most people, as they perceive it. Natural selection, both in nature and in societies, will ensure that the weak and poor die off, as those oligarchs continue to take over resources around the world. It's just nature taking its course.

Now, if one has a worldview which deduces to such a reality as I've described above, then there is nothing "liberty-driven" people can do. After all, they are at the bottom of the evolutionary chain of sorts. Just as dictators like Hitler, Pol Pot, Stalin, Mao, and others claimed themselves to be the supreme standards of what's right, what's free, and what's true, those oligarchs today are doing the same. So, from their standpoint, they see "liberty-minded" people as a threat to the natural course of their world, and if necessary, they will take steps to eliminate them, as a predator does to its prey in nature.

So, it's a basic matter of philosophical worldviews that is at stake here. And when God is taken out of the equation, one cannot expect the situation to balance out. Any secular solution to the problems mentioned above will miss the mark, because the "oligarchy" problem is itself secular. The root of our problems today are deeper than economics. It's just sad that so many "freedom fighters" only scratch the surface when seeking to solve the issues of our day.

Sounds as though you're quoting Alice Bailey in the first part of your post.

[georgiaboy]

Anything can happen, so we're just as realistic as anybody else.

I know some people who got together and funded an outsider GOP candidate for the 2008 presidency to to tune of $21+Million, $6M of it in one day! Who'da thunkit?

I know this other guy, eye doctor, never been a politician, now the GOP candidate for US Senate. imagine.

There's also this new generation coming up who seems ready to do whatever is needed to move the ball in the right direction. They've seen what they can do when they come together, and they've got a fire about them. Brushfires everywhere it seems to me.

Is something catching on?

[osan]

I agree with you there. However, that would require some sort of mass awakening that I just don't see happening. That's not a valid excuse for abandoning hope though, and I try to open people up to exactly what you're talking about.

It's fun to agree. :)

I certainly have not abandoned hope, but I have never been one to underestimate an adversary. A circumspect appraisal of a foe's abilities and resources is always a wise investment.

[Promontorium]

You guys are reminding me of a story I started writing in 2002 and never finished on paper.

It was only later I found out how much it was based in reality, and how much of it was believed to be reality by many. I only began with an idea, to write the worst story I could possibly imagine, and to that end, I came up with a theory "if a man wanted the world, what would he do to get it?"

The story begins in the late 40s with a wealthy executive hitting on the idea of guiding popular culture in order to maintain a constant profit. To not only be the supplier of the demands of the people, but be the "hidden" creator of the demand in the first place. The key was to exploit the fringe, to always allude to fringes as if they were viable majorities, If you could steer popular culture, you could guide lifestyles, with lifestyles you could guide philosophies, and with philosophies you could steer all of society into a certain direction. With the help of a select few, who carve the industries among them, my "protagonist" lays out a plan to turn the entire planet on itself, in order to destroy itself, while profiting the entire time, and when the people had attacked each other vainly into complete ruin, through all matter of conditioning and planning, they would name their destroyers to be their ultimate leaders, body and soul.

Trouble with my story was that I wanted to write it from inception to realization, which I figured would take about 100 years. 3 generations, a couple hundred pages into this story, and 2 years of my life, I drifted onto other subjects.

I never took the prospect seriously, only inasmuch as it sounded plausible. But in the past few years it's really been creeping me out. Every lovely ultimate conspiracy theory Ron Paulians spit out, from the CFR, to everything Alex Jones says, to Zeitgeist, seems to be completely unified and explicable in a nonsense fiction I came up with 8 years ago. I feel a bit plagiarized, but I simultaneously think people have to be a bit crazy to believe it. I remember my first spark came from visiting my friend who was listening to Rage Against the Machine. I hated their politics, and it pissed me off just listening to them, so I asked my friend, "Do you think the record company put out Rage Against the Machine just to piss people off?" and then I realized, of course, it's even in their band's name, but how far does this go? Where does the "ignorant" become calculated hatred, destruction, and profiteering? Certainly Rage Against the Machine believed what they preached, that was the key, use the fringe nutcases and put them center stage to affect a tide of change.

Now Rage Against the Machine isn't simply mainstream, it is "oldies" and "mundane" in modern sense. But they didn't become more rational. The entire tide of American culture just accepted batshit insane philosophical screechy music. Who's the next fringe guiding the masses?

[pacelli]

Who's the next fringe guiding the masses?

I think the constructed 'fringe' referred to as the tea party is the next one guiding the masses, at least in terms of political opinion and dissent. An outlet for people's 5-minutes-hate was constructed as a control mechanism to prevent chaos.

[Travlyr]

Who's the next fringe guiding the masses?

The Internet.

[Travlyr]

It was only later I found out how much it was based in reality, and how much of it was believed to be reality by many. I only began with an idea, to write the worst story I could possibly imagine, and to that end, I came up with a theory "if a man wanted the world, what would he do to get it?"

The story begins in the late 40s with a wealthy executive hitting on the idea of guiding popular culture in order to maintain a constant profit. To not only be the supplier of the demands of the people, but be the "hidden" creator of the demand in the first place. The key was to exploit the fringe, to always allude to fringes as if they were viable majorities, If you could steer popular culture, you could guide lifestyles, with lifestyles you could guide philosophies, and with philosophies you could steer all of society into a certain direction. With the help of a select few, who carve the industries among them, my "protagonist" lays out a plan to turn the entire planet on itself, in order to destroy itself, while profiting the entire time, and when the people had attacked each other vainly into complete ruin, through all matter of conditioning and planning, they would name their destroyers to be their ultimate leaders, body and soul.

I never took the prospect seriously, only inasmuch as it sounded plausible. But in the past few years it's really been creeping me out. Every lovely ultimate conspiracy theory Ron Paulians spit out, from the CFR, to everything Alex Jones says, to Zeitgeist, seems to be completely unified and explicable in a nonsense fiction I came up with 8 years ago. I feel a bit plagiarized, but I simultaneously think people have to be a bit crazy to believe it. I remember my first spark came from visiting my friend who was listening to Rage Against the Machine. I hated their politics, and it pissed me off just listening to them, so I asked my friend, "Do you think the record company put out Rage Against the Machine just to piss people off?" and then I realized, of course, it's even in their band's name, but how far does this go? Where does the "ignorant" become calculated hatred, destruction, and profiteering? Certainly Rage Against the Machine believed what they preached, that was the key, use the fringe nutcases and put them center stage to affect a tide of change.



Good story... and it lines up quite nicely in many ways to my understanding of the power elite. There are two big differences. One is when it started, and the other is that it is real. It started a very long time ago. One of the power elite's first major obstacles was the Gutenberg press. Giving people access to information exposed society workings far more than the power elite wanted because their power came from secrecy. This secrecy is the why for book banning and burnings.

The power elite are resilient. They control the money supply (the IMF & World Bank), and therefore governments around the world. By 1900, they owned most of the major media in both Europe and the U.S. and they continue to control much of what is reported even today. For example, ask yourself why you don't hear a constant chatter of "audit the fed" on the TV or radio. An audit of a bank should be automatic, but MSM keeps silent even today. "Harvest of Despair" was kept from much of the "western world" intentionally throughout the 30's, 40's, 50's, 60's and 70's by the media.

YouTube - Harvest of despair part 1 (Communism) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXkgGdZC6uQ)

The attack on the USS Liberty was kept quiet until recently, and the Gulf of Tonkin incident was buried as well. While there are many more examples, the Internet generation may not fully grasp how the world worked prior to the free exchange of ideas. Most people did not have access to the truth prior to 1990.

If this power elite oligarchy still seems hard to believe, then take the time to study why WWI was perpetuated. Paul Warburg (Federal Reserve Chairman) and his brother Max Warburg (Head of the German Secret Service) played major roles in financing both sides of the war for profit for the international bankers. When you study the history of the Warburg family, many conspiracy realities overpower conspiracy theories.

The power elite oligarchy is real, we now know who they are, and what we are witnessing before our very eyes is their exposure through the free exchange of the Internet and consequently their fall from grace.

[live liberty]

WTF! ^ wtf.

[osan]

Anything can happen, so we're just as realistic as anybody else.

In terms of a goal, yes, but in terms of how we assess the nature of the adversary, I am still not convinced. It seems to me, and nobody has disabused me of this notion as yet, that many people are of the mind that we can vote the bastards out, assert our rights, and just take our nation back, 1,2,3. The point I have been attempting to get across is that it will not happen that way - there will be push back and I suspect it will be very nasty. With respect to economics the USA has become like a polio victim in an iron lung, completely dependent on that device for his very life. If the man with his hand on the on/off switch doesn't get his way and he turns the lung off... you get the picture.

/quote]
Is something catching on?[/quote]

Sure, but again I ask: what do you see as the likely oligarchical response? Roll over? put it to us? What?

[Travlyr]

Anything can happen, so we're just as realistic as anybody else.

I know some people who got together and funded an outsider GOP candidate for the 2008 presidency to to tune of $21+Million, $6M of it in one day! Who'da thunkit?

I know this other guy, eye doctor, never been a politician, now the GOP candidate for US Senate. imagine.

There's also this new generation coming up who seems ready to do whatever is needed to move the ball in the right direction. They've seen what they can do when they come together, and they've got a fire about them. Brushfires everywhere it seems to me.

Is something catching on?

Liberty is catching on. However, rather than spending another $21 million on liberty candidates, a better choice would be to spend it on broadcasting the liberty message through TV with good movies, accurate history & liberty messages on the radio & magazines portraying the laid back prosperous life of a laissez-faire free-market society.

Mostly what is on TV now is a police state... a crime ridden society... CSI... "beat em up, blow em up, shoot em out, kill em fakery." That is why people buy into the police state, and then people have a hard time understanding reality. For instance, a raft guide in Colorado got arrested the other day for swimming across a river out of concern for a 13 year old girl that fell out of his boat and swam 1/2 mile after it flipped! Arrested for swimming! Read the comments in the Denver Post about it. A lot of people agree that since law enforcement told him not to swim across the river, he should be arrested! WTF?

If we elect 20 liberty candidates this year, then how will they effect society? My guess is "very little." If we pooled our resources together for a broadcasting network, we could effect some positive changes in society, and perhaps earn some profits with good solid management.