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FrankRep
06-04-2010, 03:50 PM
On June 2, the Massachusetts House passed by a vote of 113 to 35 a resolution to support the adoption of a national popular vote in Massachusetts. by Joe Wolverton, II


Massachusetts House Passes Bill for Democratic Election of President (http://www.thenewamerican.com/index.php/usnews/politics/3707-massachusetts-house-passes-bill-for-democratic-election-of-president)


Joe Wolverton, II | The New American (http://www.thenewamerican.com/)
Friday, 04 June 2010


On June 2, the Massachusetts House passed by a vote of 113 to 35 (http://boston.com/community/blogs/on_liberty/2010/06/why_a_national_popular_vote_is.html) a resolution to support the adoption of a national popular vote in Massachusetts. The bill now will be sent to the State Senate for deliberation.

While the vote in Massachusetts is a recent occurrence, the movement to abolish the Electoral College has been slowly and steadily moving through state houses nationwide. According to information (http://www.nationalpopularvote.com/) published on the National Popular Vote organization's website, 29 state legislative chambers in 19 states have passed a resolution calling for the reformation of the electoral college, California and Colorado being the first in 2006.

The National Popular Vote (NPV) movement does not call for the elimination of the Electoral College altogether, rather they are pushing for a change in the way the electoral votes are tallied. The group has authored a model bill for use in by state legislators allied to their cause.

Simply put, the measure calls for state legislatures to pass bills committing their state's electoral votes to the candidate who wins the nationwide popular vote. The effect of this bill would be to obviate the possibility that a candidate for President who received the most popular votes would lose the election because he did not receive the requisite 270 electoral votes.

Four times in the history of the United States a candidate has garnered more popular votes than his opponent, yet lost the race for the White House. The first time was in 1824, when despite winning a plurality of the popular and electoral vote, Andrew Jackson did not win the requisite majority of electoral votes and under terms of the 12th Amendment, the election was decided by the House of Representatives who chose John Quincy Adams to be President.

The second time a candidate lost after winning the popular vote was in 1876, when a particularly tumultuous election resulted in Rutherford B. Hayes becoming President. This election was so rife with scandal and corruption that opponents of Hayes took to calling him "Rutherfraud B. Hayes" for his allegedly illegitimate election. Hayes lost the popular vote by approximately 250,000 votes.

Just 12 years after the debacle that resulted in the Hayes presidency, the country experienced another controversy in the presidential election. In 1888, Benjamin Harrison defeated incumbent President Grover Cleveland by a count of 233 electoral votes to 168, thus becoming the 23rd President of the United States. Harrison received about 90,000 votes fewer than Cleveland, however.

The fourth and final time that a candidate did not become President despite winning the popular vote count was in 2000, when the Supreme Court held in favor of George W. Bush with regard to Florida's electoral votes, thus handing him the presidency. In that race, Al Gore bested Bush in the popular vote, but lost 266 to 271 in the Electoral College tally.

To proponents of the National Popular Vote initiative, the notion that a candidate could be favored by a majority of Americans yet not be sworn in as their President is inimical to the "one person, one vote" theory of democracy. The argument they advance is that the current system of calculating electoral votes permits voters in swing states to determine the outcome of the presidential election, while voters in other states (that is, states with fewer electoral votes) are ignored by candidates and their votes are rendered null.

For support of their cause, the National Popular Vote alliance (consisting of several of the usual liberal suspects: the League of Women Voters (http://www.lwv.org/Content/ContentGroups/StudyTaskforces/NPVCompactStudy/NPVArgument_con.pdf) and the ACLU (http://www.aclu.org/files/assets/natl_popular_vote_flier.pdf) among others) points to Article 2, Section 1 of the Constitution, which in relevant part reads, "Each State shall appoint, in such manner as the legislature thereof may direct, a number of electors equal to the whole number of Senators and Representatives to which the State may be entitled in Congress."

It is irrefutable that the cited clause of the Constitution does delineate practically plenary power of deciding the manner of appointing electors to the state legislatures. There is, in fact, no federal power to appoint electors and thus the states may do so in any manner they deem appropriate (providing no other provision of the Constitution is offended).

The constitutional soundness of the premise, notwithstanding, the philosophy underlying it is flawed and contrary to the genius of the American system of federalism, as established by the Constitution of 1787.

In fact, the concept of the direct, popular election of the President was not anticipated by our Founding Fathers. It was anathema to the delicate balance of power between state and national governments. The opinion held by the drafters of the Constitution on the topic of the Electoral College and its role in choosing the head of the executive branch, is expressed cogently and clearly by Alexander Hamilton in The Federalist, # 68.

Curiously, in light of the current kerfuffle, Hamilton opens that letter stating "the mode of appointment of the chief magistrate of the United States, is almost the only part of the system, of any consequence, which has escaped without severe censure." Hamilton goes on to remark that even those who found fault with the plan of the Constitution, considered the mode of electing President contained therein to be worthy of approbation.

A cornerstone of the foundation of our unique Republic is the concept that we are not only United, but states, as well. Federalism undergirds the beautifully simple and simply beautiful construction of our limited government. In The Federalist, Hamilton decrees that the method of choosing the President as laid out in the Constitution "unites in an eminent degree all the advantages, the union of which was to be wished for." That is to say, the voice of the people is to be heard through electors chosen by them. These electors would be then able to distill the will of the masses and commingle it with their own insight and experience, thus choosing the most qualified and distinguished individual to fill so powerful an office.

Chiefly, the plan proffered by the NPV coalition throws off kilter the delicate balance between national and state governments by removing the fulcrum of federalism upon which it rests. The NPV proposal is an end run around the Constitution and thereby undermines the legitimacy of presidential elections. It relegates states to mere subordinate status and virtually eliminates their current (and constitutional) role in the election of the President.

The Constitution establishes a republic, not a democracy. One of the organizations pushing for adoption of the NPV plan, the League of Women Voters, declares on its website that the direct, popular election of the President of the United States is so fundamental to the proposition of "one person, one vote" that they "reject arguments for federalism over those for individual voters' rights in this matter." The upshot is that the direct election of the President by the voice of the majority of the people weighs so heavily on the scales of morality, that the circumvention of the Constitution is excusable, at least in this instance.

Unfortunately for those "one person, one vote" zealots, their plan has no teeth and will not accomplish the ends they seek by means of sidestepping the Constitution. In fact, the NPV nationalizes disputed outcomes and can compel no state that is a party to the proposed "interstate compact" to accept the outcome of an election that state deems unfair or contrary to its own parochial interests.

And, ironically, the NPV dilutes the strength of the votes of individuals by, perhaps inadvertently, rigging the system in a way that encourages presidential candidates to spend their time and money in mega media markets where the cost per vote would be most economical. States that the NPV crowd claims are ignored now, will most certainly be ignored under their system, as well.

Finally, while there may be flaws in the Electoral College method of electing the President, those flaws are minor and are evidence only of the general fallibility of mankind, not of any systematic defect in the Constitution itself. The Electoral College has performed precisely as the Founders intended (for the most part) and as Alexander Hamilton said in the letter quoted above, "If the manner of it be not perfect, it is at least excellent."


SOURCE:
http://www.thenewamerican.com/index.php/usnews/politics/3707-massachusetts-house-passes-bill-for-democratic-election-of-president

nate895
06-04-2010, 04:05 PM
I pray this never passes.

Aratus
06-04-2010, 04:09 PM
my theory is always palin verses obama in 2012 will be a 269 verses 269 electoral college surprise...

Aratus
06-04-2010, 04:10 PM
now my home state has shot down in part my pet theory...

Aratus
06-04-2010, 04:17 PM
if ron paul runs in 2012 and there IS no electoral college, could he be directly elected to the presidency?

specsaregood
06-04-2010, 04:23 PM
The fourth and final time that a candidate did not become President despite winning the popular vote count was in 2000, when the Supreme Court held in favor of George W. Bush with regard to Florida's electoral votes, thus handing him the presidency.

The part in bold is inaccurate. Even if the supreme court had ruled the other way and they had recounted the ballots bush would have won. Many a FL newspaper recounted the ballots anyways and Bush came out on top. You can thank Janet Reno and the Elian Gonzales affair for handing the Presidency to Bush.

James Madison
06-04-2010, 04:25 PM
Anyone think this would make elections even easier to rig?

libertybrewcity
06-04-2010, 04:27 PM
the constitution lets the states decide elections.wouldn't a national popular vote be unconstitutional? I think a better method would be to split up the electoral votes a candidate wins in a state depending on their share of the vote they receive in that state. I believe only two states do this today but it would make things a lot more fair and makes states more competitive which would likely increase voter turnout.

libertythor
06-04-2010, 04:28 PM
Anyone think this would make elections even easier to rig?

I think so. Instead of having to contend with the state chessboard, the fraudsters would just do it in all of the major cities. As of right now, fraud in Los Angeles and NYC wouldn't have that big of an impact because those states already swing heavily democratic. But under a popular vote scheme an extra 100,000 votes here and there would make a big difference.

ARealConservative
06-04-2010, 04:45 PM
the constitution lets the states decide elections.wouldn't a national popular vote be unconstitutional?

The state is deciding to cast it's electoral votes based on a national popular vote.

So it seems perfectly in line with the constitution.

nate895
06-04-2010, 04:47 PM
I think so. Instead of having to contend with the state chessboard, the fraudsters would just do it in all of the major cities. As of right now, fraud in Los Angeles and NYC wouldn't have that big of an impact because those states already swing heavily democratic. But under a popular vote scheme an extra 100,000 votes here and there would make a big difference.

And be next to impossible to detect.

mvymvy
06-04-2010, 06:25 PM
A system in which electoral votes are divided proportionally by state would not accurately reflect the nationwide popular vote and would not make every vote equal.

Every vote would not be equal under the proportional approach. The proportional approach would perpetuate the inequality of votes among states due to each state's bonus of two electoral votes. It would penalize states, such as Montana, that have only one U.S. Representative even though it has almost three times more population than other small states with one congressman. It would penalize fast-growing states that do not receive any increase in their number of electoral votes until after the next federal census. It would penalize states with high voter turnout (e.g., Utah, Oregon).

Moreover, the fractional proportional allocation approach does not assure election of the winner of the nationwide popular vote.

mvymvy
06-04-2010, 06:26 PM
The congressional district method of awarding electoral votes (currently used in Maine and Nebraska) would not help make every vote matter. In NC, for example, there are only 4 of the 13 congressional districts that would be close enough to get any attention from presidential candidates. A smaller fraction of the country's population lives in competitive congressional districts (about 12%) than in the current battleground states (about 30%) that now get overwhelming attention , while two-thirds of the states are ignored Also, a second-place candidate could still win the White House without winning the national popular vote.

mvymvy
06-04-2010, 06:27 PM
The current system of electing the president ensures that the candidates do not reach out to all of the states. Presidential candidates concentrate their attention on a handful of closely divided "battleground" states. In 2008, candidates concentrated over two-thirds of their campaign events and ad money in just six states, and 98% in just 15 states (CO, FL, IN, IA, MI, MN, MO, NV, NH, NM, NC, OH, PA, VA, and WI). Over half (57%) of the events were in just four states (Ohio, Florida, Pennsylvania and Virginia). In 2004, candidates concentrated over two-thirds of their money and campaign visits in five states; over 80% in nine states; and over 99% of their money in 16 states, and candidates concentrated over two-thirds of their money and campaign visits in five states and over 99% of their money in 16 states.
Two-thirds of the states and people have been merely spectators to the presidential elections.

Candidates have no reason to poll, visit, advertise, organize, campaign, or worry about the voter concerns in states where they are safely ahead or hopelessly behind. The reason for this is the state-by-state winner-take-all rule enacted by 48 states, under which all of a state's electoral votes are awarded to the candidate who gets the most votes in each separate state.

In the past six decades, there have been six presidential elections in which a shift of a relatively small number of votes in one or two states would have elected (and, in 2000, did elect) a presidential candidate who lost the popular vote nationwide.

mvymvy
06-04-2010, 06:28 PM
The potential for political fraud and mischief is not uniquely associated with either the current system or a national popular vote. In fact, the current system magnifies the incentive for fraud and mischief in closely divided battleground states because all of a state's electoral votes are awarded to the candidate who receives a bare plurality of the votes in each state.

Under the current system, the national outcome can be affected by mischief in one of the closely divided battleground states (e.g., by overzealously or selectively purging voter rolls or by placing insufficient or defective voting equipment into the other party's precincts). The accidental use of the butterfly ballot by a Democratic election official in one county in Florida cost Gore an estimated 6,000 votes ― far more than the 537 popular votes that Gore needed to carry Florida and win the White House. However, even an accident involving 6,000 votes would have been a mere footnote if a nationwide count were used (where Gore's margin was 537,179).

torchbearer
06-04-2010, 06:29 PM
The current system of electing the president ensures that the candidates do not reach out to all of the states. Presidential candidates concentrate their attention on a handful of closely divided "battleground" states. In 2008, candidates concentrated over two-thirds of their campaign events and ad money in just six states, and 98% in just 15 states (CO, FL, IN, IA, MI, MN, MO, NV, NH, NM, NC, OH, PA, VA, and WI). Over half (57%) of the events were in just four states (Ohio, Florida, Pennsylvania and Virginia). In 2004, candidates concentrated over two-thirds of their money and campaign visits in five states; over 80% in nine states; and over 99% of their money in 16 states, and candidates concentrated over two-thirds of their money and campaign visits in five states and over 99% of their money in 16 states.
Two-thirds of the states and people have been merely spectators to the presidential elections.

Candidates have no reason to poll, visit, advertise, organize, campaign, or worry about the voter concerns in states where they are safely ahead or hopelessly behind. The reason for this is the state-by-state winner-take-all rule enacted by 48 states, under which all of a state's electoral votes are awarded to the candidate who gets the most votes in each separate state.

In the past six decades, there have been six presidential elections in which a shift of a relatively small number of votes in one or two states would have elected (and, in 2000, did elect) a presidential candidate who lost the popular vote nationwide.

each state is a republic. each state is to send electors for president. read history much?

mvymvy
06-04-2010, 06:35 PM
National Popular Vote has nothing to do with whether the country has a "republican" form of government or is a "democracy."

A "republican" form of government means that the voters do not make laws themselves but, instead, delegate the job to periodically elected officials (Congressmen, Senators, and the President). The United States has a "republican" form of government regardless of whether popular votes for presidential electors are tallied at the state-level (as has been the case in 48 states) or at district-level (as has been the case in Maine and Nebraska) or at 50-state-level (as under the National Popular Vote bill).

mvymvy
06-04-2010, 06:36 PM
Federalism concerns the allocation of power between state governments and the national government. The National Popular Vote bill concerns how votes are tallied, not how much power state governments possess relative to the national government. The powers of state governments are neither increased nor decreased based on whether presidential electors are selected along the state boundary lines, along district lines (as has been the case in Maine and Nebraska), or national lines.

mvymvy
06-04-2010, 06:37 PM
Keep in mind that the main media at the moment, namely TV, costs much more per impression in big cities than in smaller towns and rural area. So, if you just looked at TV, candidates get more bang for the buck in smaller towns and rural areas.

For example, in California state-wide elections, candidates for governor or U.S. Senate don't campaign just in Los Angeles and San Francisco, and those places don't control the outcome (otherwise California wouldn't have recently had Republican governors Reagan, Dukemejian, Wilson, and Schwarzenegger). A vote in rural Alpine county is just an important as a vote in Los Angeles.

If the National Popular Vote bill were to become law, it would not change the need for candidates to build a winning coalition across demographics. Any candidate who yielded, for example, the 21% of Americans who live in rural areas in favor of a "big city" approach would not likely win the national popular vote. Candidates would still have to appeal to a broad range of demographics, and perhaps even more so, because the election wouldn't be capable of coming down to just one demographic, such as voters in Ohio.

Dustancostine
06-04-2010, 08:00 PM
I hope Mass. does this. Then when the Republican candidate wins the National vote regardless of the Mass vote, I want to see them gnash their teeth as their votes go to the Republican.

Eroberer
06-05-2010, 07:42 AM
Only if they passed legislation that made it illegal to vote for those receiving money or some other perk from the government. All those with welfare or who directly profit from a government contract would not be able to vote.

At least it would make things interesting, and that way they couldn't vote for more money.

ChaosControl
06-05-2010, 08:00 AM
States voting to give up their own power, seriously I think there must be something in these people's drinking water that makes them so dumb. Maybe its the flouride...