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pcosmar
05-30-2010, 08:51 PM
Gaza Humanitarian Flotilla attacked.
Unarmed ship attacked in International Waters.
2 dead 30 wounded.
MSM is ignoring this.
Watching the live feed.
http://www.livestream.com/insaniyardim?utm_source=lsplayer&utm_medium=ui-content&utm_campaign=insaniyardim&utm_content=insaniyardim

http://www.google.com/#q=gaza+flotilla&hl=en&safe=off&prmd=nu&source=lnms&tbs=mbl:1&ei=RxkDTPzzG43MNMWsyDs&sa=X&oi=mode_link&ct=mode&ved=0CAsQ_AU&fp=7bfaec81a4cac4b3

Agorism
05-30-2010, 08:56 PM
I can't understand what that guy is saying.

wgadget
05-30-2010, 09:24 PM
Try this one:

http://www.ipadio.com/phlogs/Gaza_TVNews/2010/5/31/Gaza-TVs-phlog--15th-phonecast

pcosmar
05-30-2010, 09:26 PM
I can't understand what that guy is saying.

There have been a few English speakers from time to time.
Watching the videos of Commandos dropping from a helicopter and shots being fired.
Wounded being moved.

http://www.worldbulletin.net/news_detail.php?id=59257

http://www.pacificfreepress.com/news/1/6307-qwe-have-three-deadq-gaza-flotilla-communications-lost-during-urgent-cry-for-help-from-turkish-ship-mavi-mari.html

>shaw
05-30-2010, 09:26 PM
http://twitpic.com/1sndgg

CHECK OUT THIS PIC , U CAN SEE THEM SHOOTING

Agorism
05-30-2010, 09:32 PM
European Parliamentarians amongst the wounded

How do you know that?

Immortal Technique
05-30-2010, 09:41 PM
http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=128420&sectionid=351020202

>shaw
05-30-2010, 09:43 PM
How do you know that?

Disregard that got a false source although it might still be true

pcosmar
05-30-2010, 09:44 PM
How do you know that?

There were dozens on board, but no confirmation on who the casualties are yet.
:(

fj45lvr
05-30-2010, 09:56 PM
I'll be happy as hell when these zionist scum reap their judgment. It only took them less than 20 years to become the oppressors when they had just lived through being the oppressed (totally mind-blowing and sad).

Hopefully the Israeli resistance movement will grow and this back-fires on the "police state"...more and more Israeli youth are leaving Israel which is a good sign that they are not all "hardened" scum.

t0rnado
05-30-2010, 09:58 PM
No MSM reports of any casualties or injuries just reports of an interception.

Hiki
05-31-2010, 03:31 AM
http://twitpic.com/1sndgg

CHECK OUT THIS PIC , U CAN SEE THEM SHOOTING

That video was just on BBC, it's the guns flashlight.

devil21
05-31-2010, 03:36 AM
Al Jazeera video of the assault

YouTube - Israeli troops storm Gaza flotilla (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFEBbDkyrqQ)

This is reported to have happened in international waters which makes it an act of war. The question is against who?

pcosmar
05-31-2010, 03:58 AM
Reports now have 10 dead.
http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/meast/05/31/gaza.protest/?hpt=T2

fj45lvr
05-31-2010, 04:22 AM
Imagine what kind of response we'd see if the Iranians attacked humanitarian vessels in international waters.

The hypocrisy is nauseating.

I'd say this "mission" by the activists was a complete success either way (arriving or this).

libertythor
05-31-2010, 04:34 AM
Look. I am not pro or anti Israel, and I beleive that the US should stay out of this and all other similar affairs in the middle east. However, this action by the Israeli military was uncalled for. If it is a matter of Israeli sovereignty, the proper thing to do would have been board them and process them for deportation.

Israel is fucking up big time and is acting like an A1 douche.

fj45lvr
05-31-2010, 05:03 AM
How about the "sovereignty" of Gaza?? Israel claims the sea bordering it? What a joke.

If Israel doesn't like getting attacked maybe they should have thought twice before they violently stole lands from people thinking that they'd "grow old and forget" (to quote their arrogant leader).

The worm is finally turning and many of us Jews are happy to see it....its been long over due.

No CLOWNS, or American Jews speaking the truth about the zionist regime allowed

sluggo
05-31-2010, 05:20 AM
http://www.thejidf.org/2010/05/israeli-commandos-open-fire-after-being.html


Unfortunately, this is becoming another PR nightmare for Israel, who we believe should have threatened these Hamas sympathizers all along. Let this be a message to any "peace activists" who try to aid and abet the enemies of the Jewish people and Israel.

Vessol
05-31-2010, 05:51 AM
http://www.thejidf.org/2010/05/israeli-commandos-open-fire-after-being.html

Unfortunately, this is becoming another PR nightmare for Israel, who we believe should have threatened these Hamas sympathizers all along. Let this be a message to any "peace activists" who try to aid and abet the enemies of the Jewish people and Israel.

Oh yeah. Giving food and medicine to starving Palestinians whom are under siege in their own lands is aiding the enemy. Go back to your neocon hole, you scum. (Talking to the author of the article, not Sluggo, he's quoting the article, just want to clarify)

I'm not against Israeli's, but I'm against the Israeli government which does not act in its peoples interests.

This is a fucking joke. Israel wouldn't be this bold if it wasn't for the U.S and half of Europe holding them tight and protecting them. I say, let them make their own PR nightmare and let them fight off their enemies themselves. See how long they last.

tjeffersonsghost
05-31-2010, 06:00 AM
This is a fucking joke. Israel wouldn't be this bold if it wasn't for the U.S and half of Europe holding them tight and protecting them. I say, let them make their own PR nightmare and let them fight off their enemies themselves. See how long they last.

Yup

fj45lvr
05-31-2010, 06:10 AM
I cannot believe the nerve and gall of these activists to try to attack commandos dropping on them from helicopters!!!

who the hell do think they are to resist commandos?? That have Stiiiiiinking badges!!!


if they were "peaceful" they would just roll over and be arrested in international waters and let the IDF take over their vessels to plant whatever weapons the IDF sees fit to plant.

rancher89
05-31-2010, 06:12 AM
Latest reports are as many as 20 dead.... :mad:

sluggo
05-31-2010, 06:18 AM
http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=176995


Benayahu said soldiers, who had been dispatched to block the flotilla because of fears that it was carrying weaponry and other highly dangerous cargo into the Hamas-controlled Strip, were attacked with knives and bars and sharpened metal implements.

Benayahu said two pistols that had been fired were subsequently found aboard the one ship, the Marmara, on which the violence erupted. And, most dramatically, he said that one IDF soldier had his weapon snatched away by one of the “peace activists” on board, that this weapon was then turned against the IDF soldiers, who came under fire, and that they had no choice but to shoot back in self-defense.

Benayahu’s chilling description was echoed by Deputy Foreign Minister Danny Ayalon (http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=176968) at a late-morning briefing that was delivered, with typical misdirected focus, overwhelmingly in Hebrew. This had been a deliberate provocation, charged Ayalon. At least some of those aboard the Marmara had been hell-bent on violence, he said.

Alongside those credible characterizations are the facts, the distortions and the rumors. As of this writing, it is reported that 14 or 15 people were killed aboard the Marmara, that dozens more were injured, and that several soldiers were hurt, including two who were badly injured.

Sounds like they've watched too many Chuck Norris movies.

Meatwasp
05-31-2010, 06:25 AM
Now maybe those of you who didn't believe the attack on the USS Liberty didn't happen will change their minds.

fj45lvr
05-31-2010, 06:29 AM
Now maybe those of you who didn't believe the attack on the USS Liberty didn't happen will change their minds.

who doesn't believe the Liberty was attacked?? even the Israelis state publicly it was attacked....just a "mistake" (no matter that a US flag was flying in a stiff breeze while they were attacked for hours).

rancher89
05-31-2010, 06:33 AM
http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/s_683817.html

updated 5:36 AM

"JERUSALEM — Israeli commandos stormed six ships today carrying hundreds of pro-Palestinian activists on an aid mission to the blockaded Gaza Strip, killing at least 10 people and wounding dozens after encountering unexpected resistance as the forces boarded the vessels."

So it's 10 dead, the 20 came from the live feed I'm listening to, they've changed that to 20-60 wounded...not confirmed elsewhere yet....

Also Turkey has recalled their Ambassador

http://www.todayonline.com/BreakingNews/EDC100531-0000225/Turkey-says-it-is-withdrawing-its-ambassador-to-Israel-over-Gaza-aid-convoy-affair

Meatwasp
05-31-2010, 06:36 AM
who doesn't believe the Liberty was attacked?? even the Israelis state publicly it was attacked....just a "mistake" (no matter that a US flag was flying in a stiff breeze while they were attacked for hours).

My bad. wrong wording.

fj45lvr
05-31-2010, 06:48 AM
IDF sources now confirm that one raided ship contained Iranian enriched plutonium in an attache case covered with the fingerprints of Osama Bin Laden and Al Zawahiri.

sluggo
05-31-2010, 06:52 AM
IDF sources now confirm that one raided ship contained Iranian enriched plutonium in an attache case covered with the fingerprints of Osama Bin Laden and Al Zawahiri.

..... as well as Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's drivers license.

SooperDave
05-31-2010, 07:13 AM
Doesn't look like the Israelis will be able to cover up/hide this mess.

Will Obama stand behind this act or condemn it...should be interesting.

Vessol
05-31-2010, 07:14 AM
Doesn't look like the Israelis will be able to cover up/hide this mess.

Will Obama stand behind this act or condemn it...should be interesting.

They'll just "This act is concerning and we hope all parties will choose the diplomatic route" blah blah, that'll be the statement released.

healthpellets
05-31-2010, 07:21 AM
two things.

1) i saw a report on ABC this morning with video of the operation.

2) i'm new here, but i'm confused as to the hatred toward Isreal. care to explain?

fj45lvr
05-31-2010, 07:24 AM
Doesn't look like the Israelis will be able to cover up/hide this mess.

Will Obama stand behind this act or condemn it...should be interesting.


he'll probably go on about the "unfortunate accident" as "regrettable" and only pushed to this end because of the defiant and selfish attacks conducted by Gaza "evil doers" because those people hate our "freedoms".

Probably suggest that US send more money to the region to pay for increased cost of seige which is causing considerable mental fatigue and stress to Israeli populous and defense forces impairing what is normally good judgements and restraint under the constant assault they face from the restless natives on the reservations.

fj45lvr
05-31-2010, 07:30 AM
two things.

2) i'm new here, but i'm confused as to the hatred toward Isreal. care to explain?

no surprise... most here are not real big "statists" especially "police states" with no bill of rights that have violently stolen lands and instigate ethnic cleansing to keep them and use the natural retaliation against this as basis to tighten the screws even tighter (all under the aid and comfort of the US government).

phill4paul
05-31-2010, 07:33 AM
two things.

1) i saw a report on ABC this morning with video of the operation.

2) i'm new here, but i'm confused as to the hatred toward Isreal. care to explain?

For many here it is not so much a hate of Israel but a belief in non-interventionism. Many here believe in avoiding entangling political alliances and all wars not directly related to territorial self defense. This is a belief of Ron Paul and many of the founding fathers.
Our relationship with the State of Israel has given rise to animosity against America on the part of many within the Islamic world.
It is not so much a hatred of Israel as it is a hatred of the entangling alliance on the part of government.

AdamT
05-31-2010, 07:43 AM
two things.

1) i saw a report on ABC this morning with video of the operation.

2) i'm new here, but i'm confused as to the hatred toward Isreal. care to explain?

This is just scratching the surface, but look into the USS Liberty attack. Also the Mossad is extremely mischievous and evil, and causes all kinds of problems which the US always seems to have to pay for in one way or another. Look into AIPAC (Israeli lobby) and all the corruption that goes on buying off our politicians in DC. The Southern Poverty Law Center is an AIPAC organ, and is routinely attacking the Liberty/Freedom Movement (they originally drew up the BS that ended up in the MIAC report).

Zionism is another topic that comes up when discussion Israel.

Lots to know about Israel, most of which is never talked about by the MSM.

yokna7
05-31-2010, 07:44 AM
This is another demonstration of Israels arrogance. How quickly a good relationship has turned sour with Turkey. The Obama admin better back a full investigation and Israel should pay dearly for this, but will they? Naaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhh

yokna7
05-31-2010, 07:47 AM
two things.

1) i saw a report on ABC this morning with video of the operation.

2) i'm new here, but i'm confused as to the hatred toward Isreal. care to explain?

No hate. It is a combination of non-interventionism and just looking at the record. The record is clear, Israel is a belligerent state. They are fundamentally racist, that is not libertarian. I as a taxpayer, do not want to support these clowns. As a taxpayer, I don't want to support a lot of things, this is just one.

pcosmar
05-31-2010, 07:53 AM
two things.

1) i saw a report on ABC this morning with video of the operation.

2) i'm new here, but i'm confused as to the hatred toward Isreal. care to explain?

I have no hatred for "Israel". I pray for the people of Israel.
I do strongly disagree with the corrupt secular Government in control of Israel.


1 The LORD had said to Abram, "Leave your country, your people and your father's household and go to the land I will show you.

2 "I will make you into a great nation
and I will bless you;
I will make your name great,
and you will be a blessing.

3 I will bless those who bless you,
and whoever curses you I will curse;
and all peoples on earth
will be blessed through you."
Our support of corruption is NO blessing.
God will judge. May he have mercy on us all.

lester1/2jr
05-31-2010, 08:02 AM
massacring people trying to bring FOOD. well, if anyone can spin their way out of this one it's israel. they have the whole media helping them spin.

Israel has definately taken a turn for the weird lately in self defeating ways. not letting chomsky in was a bad sign.

on the one hand it's their security, on the other hand it's not OURS!!!

I don't want to keep people in gaza from getting food. so why am I paying for it?

why do we have this strange arm in the middle east?

sratiug
05-31-2010, 08:17 AM
two things.

1) i saw a report on ABC this morning with video of the operation.

2) i'm new here, but i'm confused as to the hatred toward Isreal. care to explain?

The Balfour Declaration signed by Britain (Rothschild banking cartel) promising Palestine (controlled by the Ottoman Empire at the time, which was allied with Germany) to the zionists may have been what got us into WWI (a stalemate at the time) and led to a terrible peace treaty later causing WWII and tens of millions of deaths worldwide.

Many Jews think zionism was a terrible idea. Zionists used terrorism against British and Arabs to steal the land of Israel. Israel attacked the USS Liberty in 1967 killing 39 American sailors with no reprisal from our zionist controlled government.

tjeffersonsghost
05-31-2010, 08:25 AM
two things.

1) i saw a report on ABC this morning with video of the operation.

2) i'm new here, but i'm confused as to the hatred toward Isreal. care to explain?

My view is Israel can do whatever they want in what they feel is their self interest. I dont think we need to back them up on it. Let them reap the rewards or problems of their own choices just like we have to. Our support of Israel is not in our national interests because of the choices the Israeli government makes. It causes resentment towards us because we support whatever decisions they make good or bad.

tjeffersonsghost
05-31-2010, 08:28 AM
Also those who want to come in here and post religious quotes leading to the conclusion that we must support Israel or the world will end, please don't. You're wasting your time. Most of us see right through this propaganda and are saddened to see that so many in our nation and government cant see through it.

The world will not end if we end our support for Israel. God will not come crashing down on us over Israel.

Hiki
05-31-2010, 08:33 AM
Btw, this incident wasn't against international law it seems:

http://www.icrc.org/IHL.nsf/52d68d14de6160e0c12563da005fdb1b/7694fe2016f347e1c125641f002d49ce?OpenDocument


Neutral merchant vessels

67. Merchant vessels flying the flag of neutral States may not be attacked unless they:

(a) are believed on reasonable grounds to be carrying contraband or breaching a blockade, and after prior warning they intentionally and clearly refuse to stop, or intentionally and clearly resist visit, search or capture;

pcosmar
05-31-2010, 08:40 AM
Btw, this incident wasn't against international law it seems:

http://www.icrc.org/IHL.nsf/52d68d14de6160e0c12563da005fdb1b/7694fe2016f347e1c125641f002d49ce?OpenDocument

Bullshit.
They were in International waters.
This is a clear case of Piracy. Or it is an Act of War.
nothing less.
:mad:

Hiki
05-31-2010, 08:44 AM
Bullshit.
They were in International waters.
This is a clear case of Piracy. Or it is an Act of War.
nothing less.
:mad:

And that law is present in international waters, and it clearly says that if the vessels are attempting to breach a blockade (this intent was clearly stated by the organizers) then intercepting the vessels is allowed.

Nothing more, nothing less.

e. Although I would've preferred the IDF to wait for the flotilla to enter Israeli waters, but still nothing illegal happened.

A. Havnes
05-31-2010, 08:44 AM
They'll just "This act is concerning and we hope all parties will choose the diplomatic route" blah blah, that'll be the statement released.

Yeah, that'll be pretty much it.

lester1/2jr
05-31-2010, 08:46 AM
"16 dead, 6 Turks" Turkey is a NATO member isn't it? this complicates things

Imaginos
05-31-2010, 08:47 AM
Israeli administration is THE Fourth Reich in the Middle East.
Nazi administration is alive and well in the Middle East.
Majority of Israeli state policies are identical to Nazi Germany under Hitler minus gas chamber.
For an example, if you are non Jewish then you can't even get married to Jewish person in Israel because the state does not aknolwedge it as legit marriage.
Sounds familiar? Yeah, that's the Nazi's state policy to promote purification of German blood.
This time, the Fourth Reich is doing it to purity 'the Chosen's blood instead of German. LOLOLOL.
But in a way, the Fourth Reich is much more advanced than the Third Reich because instead of Joseph Goebbels who only had influence in Germany, now we have ADL and majority of MSM running by Goebbels wannabes, (i.e. ultra propaganda for Israel) have influence on the entire planet.The Fourth Reich propaganda machine is running its brainwashing operation on the entire planet and it has been super duper successful.
Now, that's what I call high-tech operation. LOLOL.

pcosmar
05-31-2010, 08:51 AM
but still nothing illegal happened.

Murder is still murder.

God will judge. The people of Israel will suffer for this.

Hiki
05-31-2010, 08:51 AM
h ttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bU12KW-XyZE

Nice going, "peace-activists".

e. For some strange reason it wont show the link, copy&paste it.

Hiki
05-31-2010, 08:53 AM
Murder is still murder.

God will judge. The people of Israel will suffer for this.

A group of people attack you armed with apparent handguns, metallic poles and knives, what are you gonna do? Show them the peace-sign and sing gumbaija? Seriously.

eproxy100
05-31-2010, 08:58 AM
And that law is present in international waters, and it clearly says that if the vessels are attempting to breach a blockade (this intent was clearly stated by the organizers) then intercepting the vessels is allowed.

Nothing more, nothing less.

e. Although I would've preferred the IDF to wait for the flotilla to enter Israeli waters, but still nothing illegal happened.

Moot point. The blockade itself is illegal.

lester1/2jr
05-31-2010, 09:00 AM
I'm all for getting the facts but I have a hard time believing the people on the flotilla would launch a nilitary attack on the IDF from the boat. with an expectation of what, defeating the whole army?

catdd
05-31-2010, 09:00 AM
A group of people attack you armed with apparent handguns, metallic poles and knives, what are you gonna do? Show them the peace-sign and sing gumbaija? Seriously.

They didn't asked for their boats to be boarded either did they. Armed thugs break into your home and you defend yourself with a baseball bat and it's your fault.

pcosmar
05-31-2010, 09:01 AM
A group of people attack you armed with apparent handguns, metallic poles and knives, what are you gonna do? Show them the peace-sign and sing gumbaija? Seriously.

Drop the dumb shit.
I was watching the live feed when the Commandos attacked the ship.

Now they are saying they were ambushed. BULLSHIT

They opened fire on unarmed people. In front of live video.

They can lie all the way to hell, It does not change the facts.
:mad:

Hiki
05-31-2010, 09:04 AM
Drop the dumb shit.
I was watching the live feed when the Commandos attacked the ship.

Now they are saying they were ambushed. BULLSHIT

They opened fire on unarmed people. In front of live video.

They can lie all the way to hell, It does not change the facts.
:mad:

Well I'm expecting to see this apparently clear video of the thing going down. In the meantime you should check out the video I posted which is filmed from above, showing pretty clearly what goes on.

pcosmar
05-31-2010, 09:08 AM
Well I'm expecting to see this apparently clear video of the thing going down. In the meantime you should check out the video I posted which is filmed from above, showing pretty clearly what goes on.

I am waiting for the survivors stories to come out.
They can't kill them all. Several European diplomats were on board.

The UN is in special session over this.
:(

Hiki
05-31-2010, 09:08 AM
They didn't asked for their boats to be boarded either did they. Armed thugs break into your home and you defend yourself with a baseball bat and it's your fault.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say. The flotilla was sailing into blockaded Israeli waters fully understanding that they are not allowed to do so and will be intercepted if they continue. The people on the ship knew exactly where they were going and that IDF forces would board the ship, and then they decide to attack the soldiers.

They got just what they deserved.

healthpellets
05-31-2010, 09:09 AM
Bullshit.
They were in International waters.
This is a clear case of Piracy. Or it is an Act of War.
nothing less.
:mad:

then the aggrieved party is welcome to start a war against Israel. what you are you so mad about?

fj45lvr
05-31-2010, 09:10 AM
how exactly does Israel claim that Gaza's waters are Israels??


Might make right??

lester1/2jr
05-31-2010, 09:11 AM
They got just what they deserved.

yeah they deserved to be killed for trying to bring food to starving people! holy shit



what you are you so mad about?

uhhh people being killed???

Hiki
05-31-2010, 09:11 AM
I am waiting for the survivors stories to come out.
They can't kill them all. Several European diplomats were on board.

The UN is in special session over this.
:(

Yeah, it's funny that on the other ships (where I understand the European politicians were) there were no problems or confrontations. The only ship where the shit hit the fan was the Turkish one with the Hamas-people. Maybe it's just coincidence that the IDF commandos went crazy only on this one ship and shot all those peace-loving activists.

healthpellets
05-31-2010, 09:11 AM
Israeli administration is THE Fourth Reich in the Middle East.
Nazi administration is alive and well in the Middle East.
Majority of Israeli state policies are identical to Nazi Germany under Hitler minus gas chamber.
For an example, if you are non Jewish then you can't even get married to Jewish person in Israel because the state does not aknolwedge it as legit marriage.
Sounds familiar? Yeah, that's the Nazi's state policy to promote purification of German blood.
This time, the Fourth Reich is doing it to purity 'the Chosen's blood instead of German. LOLOLOL.
But in a way, the Fourth Reich is much more advanced than the Third Reich because instead of Joseph Goebbels who only had influence in Germany, now we have ADL and majority of MSM running by Goebbels wannabes, (i.e. ultra propaganda for Israel) have influence on the entire planet.The Fourth Reich propaganda machine is running its brainwashing operation on the entire planet and it has been super duper successful.
Now, that's what I call high-tech operation. LOLOL.

quoting for posterity. this is priceless.

catdd
05-31-2010, 09:12 AM
I'm not sure what you're trying to say. The flotilla was sailing into blockaded Israeli waters fully understanding that they are not allowed to do so and will be intercepted if they continue. The people on the ship knew exactly where they were going and that IDF forces would board the ship, and then they decide to attack the soldiers.

They got just what they deserved.

I'm glad you feel that way. Good-bye.

lester1/2jr
05-31-2010, 09:15 AM
note the irony of healthpellets avatar and israels 3 billion a year

constituent
05-31-2010, 09:15 AM
of course it comes as a huge surprise that after an israeli pr nightmare internet forums everywhere are getting slammed with new members attempting to defend the indefensible...

constituent
05-31-2010, 09:17 AM
note the irony of healthpellets avatar and israels 3 billion a year

no kidding. toss the tantrum throwing babies off the American teat and see how long they survive pulling this kind of crap.

the government of israel is the s* talking little brother who pops-off knowing big brother's got his back. nothing more. a paper tiger.

Imaginos
05-31-2010, 09:20 AM
who doesn't believe the Liberty was attacked?? even the Israelis state publicly it was attacked....just a "mistake" (no matter that a US flag was flying in a stiff breeze while they were attacked for hours).
Few posters rejected it firmly. It appears to be we may have paid infiltrator(s) on our site.
Sending paid infiltrators is common practice of ADL so I wouldn't surprise if one of them working to influence opinion to more Israel-friendly one.

catdd
05-31-2010, 09:21 AM
of course it comes as a huge surprise that after an israeli pr nightmare internet forums everywhere are getting slammed with new members attempting to defend the indefensible...

I think it's the JDL damage control specialists being called to action.

Warrior_of_Freedom
05-31-2010, 09:21 AM
The damn Israelis are going to start world war 3, and I'm not going to be a part of it!

eproxy100
05-31-2010, 09:21 AM
of course it comes as a huge surprise that after an israeli pr nightmare internet forums everywhere are getting slammed with new members attempting to defend the indefensible...

Yes, it's interesting isn't it? Doesn't it make you wonder who these people are? Are they just your typical zionists who do it for fun, or is there something more to it? Is there actually some organization behind it?

Funny how they don't want to face the fact that the blockade is illegal and can be considered a war crime.

Hiki
05-31-2010, 09:21 AM
I'm sure you wont care about this but this is from the IDF's point of view:

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3896796,00.html


A brutal ambush at sea

Ron Ben Yishai recounts bloody clash aboard Gaza-bound vessel: The lacking crowd-dispersal means, the brutal violence of ‘peace activists,’ and the attempt to bring down an IDF helicopter

Our Navy commandoes fell right into the hands of the Gaza mission members. A few minutes before the takeover attempt aboard the Marmara got underway, the operation commander was told that 20 people were waiting on the deck where a helicopter was to deploy the first team of the elite Flotilla 13 unit. The original plan was to disembark on the top deck, and from there rush to the vessel’s bridge and order the Marmara’s captain to stop.

Officials estimated that passengers will show slight resistance, and possibly minor violence; for that reason, the operation’s commander decided to bring the helicopter directly above the top deck. The first rope that soldiers used in order to descend down to the ship was wrested away by activists, most of them Turks, and tied to an antenna with the hopes of bringing the chopper down. However, Flotilla 13 fighters decided to carry on.


Navy commandoes slid down to the vessel one by one, yet then the unexpected occurred: The passengers that awaited them on the deck pulled out bats, clubs, and slingshots with glass marbles, assaulting each soldier as he disembarked. The fighters were nabbed one by one and were beaten up badly, yet they attempted to fight back.


However, to their misfortune, they were only equipped with paintball rifles used to disperse minor protests, such as the ones held in Bilin. The paintballs obviously made no impression on the activists, who kept on beating the troops up and even attempted to wrest away their weapons.


One soldier who came to the aid of a comrade was captured by the rioters and sustained severe blows. The commandoes were equipped with handguns but were told they should only use them in the face of life-threatening situations. When they came down from the chopper, they kept on shouting to each other “don’t shoot, don’t shoot,” even though they sustained numerous blows.


‘I saw the tip of a rifle’

The Navy commandoes were prepared to mostly encounter political activists seeking to hold a protest, rather than trained street fighters. The soldiers were told they were to verbally convince activists who offer resistance to give up, and only then use paintballs. They were permitted to use their handguns only under extreme circumstances.


The planned rush towards the vessel’s bridge became impossible, even when a second chopper was brought in with another crew of soldiers. “Throw stun grenades,” shouted Flotilla 13’s commander who monitored the operation. The Navy chief was not too far, on board a speedboat belonging to Flotilla 13, along with forces who attempted to climb into the back of the ship.


The forces hurled stun grenades, yet the rioters on the top deck, whose number swelled up to 30 by that time, kept on beating up about 30 commandoes who kept gliding their way one by one from the helicopter. At one point, the attackers nabbed one commando, wrested away his handgun, and threw him down from the top deck to the lower deck, 30 feet below. The soldier sustained a serious head wound and lost his consciousness.


Only after this injury did Flotilla 13 troops ask for permission to use live fire. The commander approved it: You can go ahead and fire. The soldiers pulled out their handguns and started shooting at the rioters’ legs, a move that ultimately neutralized them. Meanwhile, the rioters started to fire back at the commandoes.


“I saw the tip of a rifle sticking out of the stairwell,” one commando said. “He fired at us and we fired back. We didn’t see if we hit him. We looked for him later but couldn’t find him.” Two soldiers sustained gunshot wounds to their knee and stomach after rioters apparently fired at them using guns wrested away from troops.


2 errors

During the commotion, another commando was stabbed with a knife. In a later search aboard the Marmara, soldiers found caches of bats, clubs, knives, and slingshots used by the rioters ahead of the IDF takeover. It appeared the activists were well prepared for a fight.


Some passengers on the ship stood at the back and pounded the soldiers’ hands as they attempted to climb on board. Only after a 30-minute shootout and brutal assaults using clubs and knifes did commandoes manage to reach the bridge and take over the Marmara.


It appears that the error in planning the operation was the estimate that passengers were indeed political activists and members of humanitarian groups who seek a political provocation, but would not resort to brutal violence. The soldiers thought they will encounter Bilin-style violence; instead, they got Bangkok. The forces that disembarked from the helicopters were few; just dozens of troops – not enough to contend with the large group awaiting them.


The second error was that commanders did not address seriously enough the fact that a group of men were expecting the soldiers on the top deck. Had they addressed this more seriously, they may have hurled tear-gas grenades and smoke grenades from the helicopter to create a screen that would have enabled them to carry out their mission, without the fighters falling right into the hands of the rioters, who severely assaulted them.

constituent
05-31-2010, 09:24 AM
I'm sure you wont care about this but this is from the IDF's point of view:

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3896796,00.html

lol! :D

poor little israel, always the victim...

Warrior_of_Freedom
05-31-2010, 09:27 AM
YouTube - Galloway shatters Israeli propaganda (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imAvXIm_iuw)

sluggo
05-31-2010, 09:27 AM
JIDF members using Megaphone perhaps?

http://giyus.org/

klamath
05-31-2010, 09:27 AM
My view is Israel can do whatever they want in what they feel is their self interest. I dont think we need to back them up on it. Let them reap the rewards or problems of their own choices just like we have to. Our support of Israel is not in our national interests because of the choices the Israeli government makes. It causes resentment towards us because we support whatever decisions they make good or bad.
+1

pcosmar
05-31-2010, 09:29 AM
JIDF members using Megaphone perhaps?

Yup, Their noise started last night even before the attack. They were flooding the "tweets" with this garbage.

HOLLYWOOD
05-31-2010, 09:30 AM
How about the "sovereignty" of Gaza?? Israel claims the sea bordering it? What a joke.

If Israel doesn't like getting attacked maybe they should have thought twice before they violently stole lands from people thinking that they'd "grow old and forget" (to quote their arrogant leader).

The worm is finally turning and many of us Jews are happy to see it....its been long over due.

No CLOWNS, or American Jews speaking the truth about the zionist regime allowed


Former UK Prime Minister Tony Blair's Sister-In-Law commented on a visit to Gaza:

"It's the World's Largest Concentration Camp"

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=154789

pcosmar
05-31-2010, 09:32 AM
I'm sure you wont care about this but this is from the IDF's point of view:



You are right, I care nothing for their point of view. I witnessed the attack.
I posted this thread then.

HOLLYWOOD
05-31-2010, 09:34 AM
JIDF members using Megaphone perhaps?

http://giyus.org/ (http://giyus.org/)


You have to control all avenues of the media ASAP!

Full out right propaganda machine

Hiki
05-31-2010, 09:35 AM
You are right, I care nothing for their point of view. I witnessed the attack.
I posted this thread then.

Still waiting for this video which seems to show everything that happened.

catdd
05-31-2010, 09:36 AM
[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imAvXIm_iuw]YouTube - Galloway shatters Israeli propaganda

Galloway is on fire. I wish I could debate that well.

YumYum
05-31-2010, 09:38 AM
I'm sure you wont care about this but this is from the IDF's point of view:

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3896796,00.html

Paintball guns? Commandos with paintball guns? Elderly people wrestling paintball guns away from Israel's elitist soldiers and then beating the soldiers up? Who makes up this shit?

Its the same schmuck who claimed on Oprah Winfrey that when his wife was a young girl and he was in a concentration camp, everyday she threw to him, over the fence, a corned beef and rye, heavy on the mustard.

Imaginos
05-31-2010, 09:38 AM
For many here it is not so much a hate of Israel but a belief in non-interventionism. Many here believe in avoiding entangling political alliances and all wars not directly related to territorial self defense. This is a belief of Ron Paul and many of the founding fathers.
Our relationship with the State of Israel has given rise to animosity against America on the part of many within the Islamic world.
It is not so much a hatred of Israel as it is a hatred of the entangling alliance on the part of government.
Very well said.
As much as I am pissed at Israel, at the end of the day, it's all about non-interventionism.
Some of us who are angry (including myself) are angry because we believe Israel is a parasite on America.
Always sucking up aid and resource yet provides nothing in return.
The only thing that we get out of this relationship with Israel is 'pure' and 'unstoppable' raw HATE from Muslims.
We just want to cutting off aid to Israel and Muslims, withdraw all the troops from the Middle East and mind our own business.
We just don't want to get ripped off by Israel.

Hiki
05-31-2010, 09:42 AM
Paintball guns? Commandos with paintball guns? Elderly people wrestling paintball guns away from Israel's elitist soldiers and then beating the soldiers up? Who makes up this shit?

Its the same schmuck who claimed on Oprah Winfrey that when his wife was a young girl and he was in a concentration camp, everyday she threw to him, over the fence, a corned beef and rye, heavy on the mustard.

As stated, the intercepting force was expecting political activists and humanitarian workers. So it would be reasonable that they're not carrying heavy gear :) They did have sidearms which were then used.

lester1/2jr
05-31-2010, 09:49 AM
why did they jam the signal then? why not let the cameras role if they are so sure they are in the right

MelissaWV
05-31-2010, 09:52 AM
Still waiting for this video which seems to show everything that happened.

I have no dog in this hunt, except that I hope we don't decide to rush to Israel's aid on this. They got themselves into this mess, and they can get themselves out (or drown in it).

However, the "video" you keep triumphantly asking for was a live feed. Live feeds are often not transcribed (they would take up enormous space). If there is a video of it, it will take time to get that out. pcosmar was watching a live feed, and posted this thread in response to what he saw.

You are defending what happened based on the slowly-emerging accounts from second and third hand witnesses, mostly, and certainly from people who are stakeholders in the outcome of how this is spun.

It's a clusterfuck, and we won't know what happened for quite a while. Most of us on these forums, however, know that whatever it is, we should keep the hell out of it (and probably won't).

lester1/2jr
05-31-2010, 09:56 AM
there wasa vide going but my understanding is that israel cut the signal then went to work.

obviously so there wold be no actual record of what they did.

YumYum
05-31-2010, 09:59 AM
As stated, the intercepting force was expecting political activists and humanitarian workers. So it would be reasonable that they're not carrying heavy gear :) They did have sidearms which were then used.

You want the truth? You can't handle the truth!


News Middle East Monday, May 31, 2010
Israel attacks Gaza aid fleet

Israeli forces have attacked a flotilla of aid-carrying ships aiming to break the country's siege on Gaza.

At least 19 people were killed and dozens injured when troops intercepted the convoy of ships dubbed the Freedom Flotilla early on Monday, Israeli radio reported.

The flotilla was attacked in international waters, 65km off the Gaza coast.

Avital Leibovich, an Israeli military spokeswoman, confirmed that the attack took place in international waters, saying: "This happened in waters outside of Israeli territory, but we have the right to defend ourselves."

Footage from the flotilla's lead vessel, the Mavi Marmara, showed armed Israeli soldiers boarding the ship and helicopters flying overhead.

Al Jazeera's Jamal Elshayyal, on board the Mavi Marmara, said Israeli troops had used live ammunition during the operation.

The Israeli military said four soldiers had been wounded and claimed troops opened fire after "demonstrators onboard attacked the IDF Naval personnel with live fire and light weaponry including knives and clubs".

Free Gaza Movement, the organisers of the flotilla, however, said the troops opened fire as soon as they stormed the convoy.

Our correspondent said that a white surrender flag was raised from the ship and there was no live fire coming from the passengers.

Before losing communication with our correspondent, a voice in Hebrew was clearly heard saying: "Everyone shut up".

Israeli intervention

Earlier, the Israeli navy had contacted the captain of the Mavi Marmara, asking him to identify himself and say where the ship was headed.

Shortly after, two Israeli naval vessels had flanked the flotilla on either side, but at a distance.

Organisers of the flotilla carrying 10,000 tonnes of humanitarian aid then diverted their ships and slowed down to avoid a confrontation during the night.

They also issued all passengers life jackets and asked them to remain below deck.

Al Jazeera’s Ayman Mohyeldin, reporting from Jerusalem, said the Israeli action was surprising.

"All the images being shown from the activists on board those ships show clearly that they were civilians and peaceful in nature, with medical supplies on board. So it will surprise many in the international community to learn what could have possibly led to this type of confrontation," he said.

Meanwhile, Israeli police have been put on a heightened state of alert across the country to prevent any civil disturbances.

Sheikh Raed Salah,a leading member of the Islamic Movement who was on board the ship, was reported to have been seriously injured. He was being treated in Israel's Tal Hasharon hospital.

In Um Al Faham, the stronghold of the Islamic movement in Israel and the birth place of Salah, preparations for mass demonstrations were under way.

Protests

Condemnation has been quick to pour in after the Israeli action.

Mahmoud Abbas, the Palestinian president, officially declared a three-day state of mourning over Monday's deaths.

Turkey, Spain, Greece, Denmark and Sweden have all summoned the Israeli ambassador's in their respective countries to protest against the deadly assault.
Worldwide outrage has followed the deadly Israeli attack of Gaza aid convoy [AFP]

Thousands of Turkish protesters tried to storm the Israeli consulate in Istanbul soon after the news of the operation broke. The protesters shouted "Damn Israel" as police blocked them.

"(The interception on the convoy) is unacceptable ... Israel will have to endure the consequences of this behaviour," the Turkish foreign ministry said in a statement.

Ismail Haniya, the Hamas leader in Gaza, has also dubbed the Israeli action as "barbaric".

Hundreds of pro-Palestinian activists, including a Nobel laureate and several European legislators, were with the flotilla, aiming to reach Gaza in defiance of an Israeli embargo.

The convoy came from the UK, Ireland, Algeria, Kuwait, Greece and Turkey, and was comprised of about 700 people from 50 nationalities.

But Israel had said it would not allow the flotilla to reach the Gaza Strip and vowed to stop the six ships from reaching the coastal Palestinian territory.

The flotilla had set sail from a port in Cyprus on Sunday and aimed to reach Gaza by Monday morning.

Israel said the boats were embarking on "an act of provocation" against the Israeli military, rather than providing aid, and that it had issued warrants to prohibit their entrance to Gaza.

It asserted that the flotilla would be breaking international law by landing in Gaza, a claim the organisers rejected.

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2010/05/201053133047995359.html

fj45lvr
05-31-2010, 10:02 AM
Still waiting for this video which seems to show everything that happened.


Now how do you honestly believe these people "arrested" by IDF are going to air a video they filmed???


You're completely delusional. Take your propaganda somewhere where it has a iota of chance to influence weak minds.

sofia
05-31-2010, 10:15 AM
there wasa vide going but my understanding is that israel cut the signal then went to work.

obviously so there wold be no actual record of what they did.

they did the same thing in 1967 just before they attacked the USS Liberty....MURDERING 35 US sailors

Imaginos
05-31-2010, 10:16 AM
of course it comes as a huge surprise that after an israeli pr nightmare internet forums everywhere are getting slammed with new members attempting to defend the indefensible...
Yes, it's called 'paid infiltrators' and sending them to political internet message boards
is one of the common practices of ADL.

eproxy100
05-31-2010, 10:19 AM
Yes, it's called 'paid infiltrators' and sending them to political internet message boards
is one of the common practices of ADL.

Is it ADL, or is it CAMERA? I guess it could be both and more. I was actually a bit concerned that the fact of "paid infiltrators" wasn't widely known.

Imaginos
05-31-2010, 10:22 AM
The damn Israelis are going to start world war 3, and I'm not going to be a part of it!
Count me out as well.
I'd rather die in FEMA camp than fight for Israeli government.

YumYum
05-31-2010, 10:23 AM
Yes, it's called 'paid infiltrators' and sending them to political internet message boards
is one of the common practices of ADL.

My college professor who is Jewish told me that the U.S. government is paying the ADL millions of dollars to hire Jews to search the internet for anti-semitism. The program is called "Know Thy Enemy". The Jews who are doing the "research" are protected under the Patriot Act and can get into our computers and emails without us knowing it.

Warrior_of_Freedom
05-31-2010, 10:25 AM
My college professor who is Jewish told me that the U.S. government is paying the ADL millions of dollars to hire Jews to search the internet for anti-semitism. The program is called "Know Thy Enemy". The Jews who are doing the "research" are protected under the Patriot Act and can get into our computers and emails without us knowing it.
Sounds like they are combating something else if they are looking through people's porn.

Imaginos
05-31-2010, 10:31 AM
Is it ADL, or is it CAMERA? I guess it could be both and more. I was actually a bit concerned that the fact of "paid infiltrators" wasn't widely known.
They have been doing meticulous job when it comes to sending paid infiltrators.
But when you do the same thing for a long period of time, sooner or later, there will be a leakage.
That's why there is no scam that works forever.

libertythor
05-31-2010, 10:35 AM
I think the source of the people defending Israel is sadly a result of social conditioning. Even long before 911, Americans were conditioned to associate "Islam" and "Ghetto Black People" as equivalents, combine that with actual depictions of demonstrations by the Palestinians, and you have Knee Jerk City.

Sad, but true. A lot of the "Zionists" are actually regular Americans who associate Israel with the side of God and right and the Palestineans as ghetto.


I don't think it is right either, but don't kill the messenger.

pcosmar
05-31-2010, 10:37 AM
"Gaza flotilla drives Israel into a sea of stupidity "

This was a common phrase in last nights "tweets". And it seems to have been proven true.

This could have had other outcomes, had any intelligent thought been given by Israeli commanders.

1. They could have allowed the ships to land, and then searched the cargo.
2. Or they could have just physically blocked the ships without ever firing a shot. They had several warships that could just get in the way. With no harm to anyone.

This was nothing but a deliberate show of force and deliberate violence.

fj45lvr
05-31-2010, 10:38 AM
My college professor who is Jewish told me that the U.S. government is paying the ADL millions of dollars to hire Jews to search the internet for anti-semitism. The program is called "Know Thy Enemy". The Jews who are doing the "research" are protected under the Patriot Act and can get into our computers and emails without us knowing it.

funny how "anti-semitism" then becomes synonyms with not agreeing with the Israeli State and their occupation of Palestine.

At least there are growing number of Jews that don't buy this bogus assessment and know that the opposite is the truth...that Israeli State actions create antisemitism (why they have to be stopped from their catastrophe).

MelissaWV
05-31-2010, 10:38 AM
I think the source of the people defending Israel is sadly a result of social conditioning. Even long before 911, Americans were conditioned to associate "Islam" and "Ghetto Black People" as equivalents, combine that with actual depictions of demonstrations by the Palestinians, and you have Knee Jerk City.

Sad, but true. A lot of the "Zionists" are actually regular Americans who associate Israel with the side of God and right and the Palestineans as ghetto.


I don't think it is right either, but don't kill the messenger.

Israel is the underdog! The little guy! The lone outpost of Democracy and Judeo-Christian values in the vast desert of camel-riding villains!

I find it so depressing that people believe those things to be so. "Size" does not matter out there in the Middle East. Your country might be huge but be mostly sand and your infrastructure might be crappy. Israel is not the underdog. Israel could (and would) nuke other nations that would interfere with and threaten its way of life. Israel does not need protection. Israel is, however, not run by idiots, and therefore exploits the perception others have of it, gaining money and weapons and political leverage.

specsaregood
05-31-2010, 10:39 AM
//

DAFTEK
05-31-2010, 10:40 AM
YouTube - Gaza flotilla due to leave southern Turkey (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zeKtcHIbMjY)

YouTube - Gaza Flotilla Attacked: Israeli troops storm aid ships, up to 20 killed (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZenysNLAfc8)

Imaginos
05-31-2010, 10:41 AM
My college professor who is Jewish told me that the U.S. government is paying the ADL millions of dollars to hire Jews to search the internet for anti-semitism. The program is called "Know Thy Enemy". The Jews who are doing the "research" are protected under the Patriot Act and can get into our computers and emails without us knowing it.
Very true.
That's why I don't post my picture or any identifiable information on internet.
And I strongly recommend you to do the same.
And suspicion of anti-Semitism is only a tip of iceberg.
For an example, even if you love Israel to death (just like so many neo cons), if you are pro-gun, anti-tax, you will be on their black list.
Don't trust government.
Trust yourself and do everything you can to protect yourself because protecting your civil right is no concern of government.

MelissaWV
05-31-2010, 10:43 AM
LOL. I know funny and that is funny.

So, let me get this straight. Israel is justifying using lethal force (guns and bullets) on a ship full of people with bats and slingshots? That is their official story?

There were also knives involved! Well, allegedly.

It's interesting. Reading this entire thing, this account could easily have been one of the stories Anti Federalist usually posts about police entering someone's home. The response there, as it is here, is that those ships were not Israel's to board. So far, the reports seem to be that the ship was in international waters. If these "commandos" had neve boarded, they would not have been faced with such lethal slingshots and bats, and would not have feared for their lives ( :rolleyes: ) enough to open fire.

DAFTEK
05-31-2010, 10:46 AM
Netanyahu: Flotilla raid was self defense

http://l.yimg.com/a/i/us/nws/p/ap_logo_106.png (http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/ap/brand/SIG=11f589428/**http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ap.org%2Ftermsandconditions)

Buzz up


http://d.yimg.com/a/p/ap/20100531/capt.0d71ccf7d40d4b47b8425d7d6862dd1a-0d71ccf7d40d4b47b8425d7d6862dd1a-0.jpg?x=213&y=160&xc=1&yc=1&wc=409&hc=307&q=85&sig=MIN6LiJ0lHoqlzS_ZjQw6Q-- (http://news.yahoo.com/nphotos/Gaza-Strip-international-waters/photo//100531/481/urn_publicid_ap_org0d71ccf7d40d4b47b8425d7d6862dd1 a//s:/ap/20100531/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_israel_palestinians)
AP – This video image released by the Turkish Aid group IHH Monday May 31, 2010 purports to show Israeli soldiers …



http://d.yimg.com/a/p/ap/20100531/thumb.13bf74b2aabf471f815ef5ad7d8f0f52-13bf74b2aabf471f815ef5ad7d8f0f52-0.jpg?x=50&y=50&xc=1&yc=1&wc=103&hc=103&q=85&sig=aT.xHxpJ.BCV8uvab4mD9Q-- (http://news.yahoo.com/nphotos/Mideast-Conflict/ss/events/wl/080601mideast) Slideshow:Mideast Conflict (http://news.yahoo.com/nphotos/Mideast-Conflict/ss/events/wl/080601mideast)
http://d.yimg.com/a/p/reuters/20100531/videolthumb.e27b7f0358b59a625dc6f4d2d8ac6401.jpg?x =50&y=50&xc=51&yc=1&wc=300&hc=300&q=85&sig=XMIf4RfJlJS61T25hWBUgQ-- Play Video (http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/external/reutersav/av_reuters_all/8cced0ce1c2316f2731bc0b2b996f8d0/36357869;_ylt=Aj0UcH1_HaFfo4IjlN7BzYYUewgF;_ylu=X3 oDMTFiZjUwaGduBHBvcwM0BHNlYwN5bl9yXzNzbG90X3ZpZGVv BHNsawN2aWQtZWQtdGh1bWI-/*http://news.yahoo.com/video/world-15749633/20095953) Video:Activists dead as Israel storms ship (http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/external/reutersav/av_reuters_all/8cced0ce1c2316f2731bc0b2b996f8d0/36357869;_ylt=AoyoOlAkJvMDyuIUsdDorBkUewgF;_ylu=X3 oDMTFhZGMwZjVzBHBvcwM1BHNlYwN5bl9yXzNzbG90X3ZpZGVv BHNsawN2aWQtZWQtbGluaw--/*http://news.yahoo.com/video/world-15749633/20095953) Reuters (http://news.yahoo.com/i/2704;_ylt=Aq.et4ShP8WugtIdxNsl28EUewgF;_ylu=X3oDMT FiZnUzZjFlBHBvcwM2BHNlYwN5bl9yXzNzbG90X3ZpZGVvBHNs awN2aWQtZWQtcHJvdmk-)
http://d.yimg.com/a/p/afp/20100531/videolthumb.592d24283bff89da082677a3f82d90ef.jpg?x =50&y=50&xc=42&yc=1&wc=328&hc=328&q=85&sig=ncJvBgZcmQogGFx0To0Ycg-- Play Video (http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/external/afp_video/av_afp_war/dc90e20971e939d08f2e6eb1fb7be690/36358236;_ylt=AmhS3iJbKSWE1.itryRJCDIUewgF;_ylu=X3 oDMTFiaXFjbWc1BHBvcwM3BHNlYwN5bl9yXzNzbG90X3ZpZGVv BHNsawN2aWQtZWQtdGh1bWI-/*http://news.yahoo.com/video/world-15749633/20096330) Video:Up to 19 dead as Israel forces storm Gaza aid boat (http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/external/afp_video/av_afp_war/dc90e20971e939d08f2e6eb1fb7be690/36358236;_ylt=AoSXBxBgLRLTJPLYXYAGAioUewgF;_ylu=X3 oDMTFhbHFjN29wBHBvcwM4BHNlYwN5bl9yXzNzbG90X3ZpZGVv BHNsawN2aWQtZWQtbGluaw--/*http://news.yahoo.com/video/world-15749633/20096330) AFP (http://news.yahoo.com/i/3089;_ylt=Asu4t8BwzEE6tCCew84Rp4wUewgF;_ylu=X3oDMT FibHVmN2VmBHBvcwM5BHNlYwN5bl9yXzNzbG90X3ZpZGVvBHNs awN2aWQtZWQtcHJvdmk-)




By ROB GILLIES, Associated Press Writer Rob Gillies, Associated Press Writer – 2 mins ago
TORONTO – Israeli prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100531/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_israel_palestinians#) says commandos who raided a Gaza aid flotilla, killing nine and injuring dozens of others, were under attack and acting in self defense.
Netanyahu spoke after a meeting with Canadian Prime Minister Stephen Harper.
The Israeli leader was cutting short his visit in Canada Monday and canceling a visit planned Tuesday with U.S. President Barack Obama in Washington so that he could return home.
Netanyahu says Israel wanted to check the cargo to ensure it contained no weapons.
He says this was done successfully with five ships, but the sixth did not cooperate.
He says hundreds of people on board that ship beat, clubbed and stabbed soldiers, and there was a report of gunfire. He says that forced soldiers to attack.
THIS IS A BREAKING NEWS UPDATE. Check back soon for further information. AP's earlier story is below.
JERUSALEM (AP) — Israeli police say 16 pro-Palestinian activists from a Gaza-bound flotilla have been sent to jail after a deadly confrontation at sea. Dozens of other activists are to be deported.
Police spokesman Micky Rosenfeld says the activists were taken ashore and were jailed in the southern desert town of Beersheba after refusing to identify themselves.
Israeli naval commandos stopped the six-ship flotilla early Monday, setting off a fierce clash that killed nine activists.
Israel has said it will deport the roughly 700 activists in the flotilla. But those who refuse to cooperate will be jailed. About 80 activists have been brought to shore so far.

ctiger2
05-31-2010, 10:47 AM
The sooner people wake up to the fact that Israel is a terrorist state the better.

We need to expel all of the Zionists from our Govt.

DAFTEK
05-31-2010, 10:48 AM
YouTube - On-board video of Gaza Freedom Flotilla storm, aid workers & Israeli troops clash (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DSFwyWyVo74)

MelissaWV
05-31-2010, 10:52 AM
He says hundreds of people on board that ship beat, clubbed and stabbed soldiers, and there was a report of gunfire. He says that forced soldiers to attack.

How many soldiers went to the hospital as a result of this? I hadn't seen that as part of the report. There must have been some serious injuries as a result of all that aggression.

specsaregood
05-31-2010, 10:54 AM
How many soldiers went to the hospital as a result of this? I hadn't seen that as part of the report. There must have been some serious injuries as a result of all that aggression.

Don't you worry. They've no doubt got the best make-up artists from hollywood being flown there right away to get something ready for you to see. This right here is a public relations problem and they have the staff to deal with it.....

DAFTEK
05-31-2010, 10:54 AM
So i unblocked my MSM news channels to see what is being reported on this massacre.... NADA... Zilch... I wonder why?

DAFTEK
05-31-2010, 10:55 AM
Who owns Fox News?

specsaregood
05-31-2010, 10:59 AM
Who owns Fox News?

Tens of Thousands of people? Maybe hundreds of thousands even?
http://finance.yahoo.com/q?s=NWS

lester1/2jr
05-31-2010, 11:08 AM
Why didn't israel just let the ships through? is it really that big a deal to them that they would risk an event lke this?

pick your friggin battles guys

Imaginos
05-31-2010, 11:13 AM
Don't you worry. They've no doubt got the best make-up artists from hollywood being flown there right away to get something ready for you to see. This right here is a public relations problem and they have the staff to deal with it.....
Yeap. Spin doctors for Israeli government are on their way to fix the small malfunction/damage in the brainwashing system for the sheeple.
Thank you MSM for providing us our daily dose of sports games, American Idol coverage, and brainwashing propaganda!

Srg1
05-31-2010, 11:19 AM
Israel Massacres On Freedom Flotilla Passengers (FULL RAW FOOTAGE)


LiveLeak.com - Redefining the Media (http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=31c_1275318231)

sluggo
05-31-2010, 11:33 AM
Freedom Flotilla: The British foreign secretary, William Hague, lamented on Monday the death toll has left the Israeli assault against the solidarity flotilla carrying humanitarian aid to the Gaza Strip and called for an investigation into what happened in order to determine whether Israel “did enough to prevent deaths and injuries. “

Way to cover your ass, Hague.

MelissaWV
05-31-2010, 11:58 AM
Freedom Flotilla: The British foreign secretary, William Hague, lamented on Monday the death toll has left the Israeli assault against the solidarity flotilla carrying humanitarian aid to the Gaza Strip and called for an investigation into what happened in order to determine whether Israel “did enough to prevent deaths and injuries. “

Way to cover your ass, Hague.

Easy case. They didn't, by virtue of the fact they opened fire.

* * *

As for the earlier posts about makeup artists, it was just a post of wishful thinking on my part. It is *usually* pretty easy to determine whether or not people actually went to the hospital right after an event. In the US, for instance, there would certainly have been footage of injured commandos being loaded into ambulances directly after the event, and reports on their condition. Reporters being what they are, and on the side they are, they would have followed up with the hospitals to keep tabs on the condition of these heroes.

It's simply not going to be possible to determine, when the reports do surface, if they are CYA or if they are genuine (I don't doubt some Israelis were injured; hell, even likely by friendly fire).

There have been posts (most notably by one particular poster) suggesting that the aid ships knew what they were getting into and got what they deserved. Well, I would say that Israel also had all this time to know that these ships were coming, and to plan out their response. This is what they came up with: Board the ships, armed, and if anyone appears to be unruly, shoot them. They knew that cameras would be there, and dignitaries would be aboard the ships. None of this stopped anything. You have to wonder why on earth that was the calculated response. This was not "heat of the moment" decision-making.

I'm not an anti-Israel conspiracist, and I don't think "the Jews" are behind every wrong in the world. I am simply looking at this incident, and it stinks, and the only reason I can think of is that Israel knows the West (and particularly the USA) will back it up to a large degree, and the media will bury the story because it's unpleasant and unsettling.

The Korean mess has only just surfaced on the news, folks, and even then in the most fluffy and indistinct terms possible. Did you really think there'd be instant coverage of this?

michaelwise
05-31-2010, 12:04 PM
Jewish superiority using this trick is the reason I promote this film.

Defamation: True Stories on Vimeo (http://www.vimeo.com/9102650)

fj45lvr
05-31-2010, 12:07 PM
Tens of Thousands of people? Maybe hundreds of thousands even?
http://finance.yahoo.com/q?s=NWS (http://finance.yahoo.com/q?s=NWS)

Who owns a majority share??

John Taylor
05-31-2010, 12:08 PM
They didn't asked for their boats to be boarded either did they. Armed thugs break into your home and you defend yourself with a baseball bat and it's your fault.

No one broke into anyone's "home" here, from the evidence, it appears that this is an example of one group of people, supported by a billion people who want to literally kill all Israelis, of defying Israel's sovereign control over her own territory by attempting to provoke violence.

fj45lvr
05-31-2010, 12:08 PM
Why didn't israel just let the ships through? is it really that big a deal to them that they would risk an event lke this?

pick your friggin battles guys


there isn't really many "sane" folks in that region of the world if you haven't noticed.

John Taylor
05-31-2010, 12:11 PM
Drop the dumb shit.
I was watching the live feed when the Commandos attacked the ship.

Now they are saying they were ambushed. BULLSHIT

They opened fire on unarmed people. In front of live video.

They can lie all the way to hell, It does not change the facts.
:mad:

[/url]

[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bU12KW-XyZE] (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bU12KW-XyZE)

If a ship loaded with a few thousand tons of "aid" came sailing in from Hugo Chavev for SEIU (an SUIE witha 40 year history of suicide bombings and school shootings throughout the country), and it was boarded by the Coast Guard after refusing to allow the cargo to be inspected, that'd be akin to what happened here.

fj45lvr
05-31-2010, 12:11 PM
No one broke into anyone's "home" here, from the evidence, it appears that this is an example of one group of people, supported by a billion people who want to literally kill all Israelis, of defying Israel's sovereign control over her own territory by attempting to provoke violence.


give me a break....this was no "secret" mission of violence...this was a "confrontation" against a tyrannical state.

Where do you dream up this crap about "sovereign control" and "her own territory"??

Ridiculous. What about the Palestinians and their territory and sovereignty??


Look at the big picture and lose the tunnel vision.

specsaregood
05-31-2010, 12:12 PM
Who owns a majority share??

There is no majority shareholder in NWS.

TheFlashlight.org
05-31-2010, 12:15 PM
No one broke into anyone's "home" here, from the evidence, it appears that this is an example of one group of people, supported by a billion people who want to literally kill all Israelis, of defying Israel's sovereign control over her own territory by attempting to provoke violence.

You forgot to mention how Israel wants to use its sovereign property, to starve, malnourish, humiliate, harass, isolate, and dehumanize an ethnic group that it is badly trying to ethnically cleanse from its territory. So, yeah, kind of a big oversight, don't you think? The governments have a sovereign right to enslave and malnourish children now, lowering IQ for generations, perhaps permanently? Wow.

Furthermore, Israel is not a woman, so quit the bullshit.

John Taylor
05-31-2010, 12:16 PM
give me a break....this was no "secret" mission of violence...this was a "confrontation" against a tyrannical state.

Where do you dream up this crap about "sovereign control" and "her own territory"??

Ridiculous. What about the Palestinians and their territory and sovereignty??


Look at the big picture and lose the tunnel vision.

I'm well aware of the history of the region, and I spent a lengthy period of time in Gaza, the West Bank, and in the rest of Israel prior to the current insurrection.

Israel has 6 million people, who are daily subjected to reminders from their neighboring countries that those countries would like nothing more than to be able to drive Israelis into the sea. Now, I don't deny that the Israelis have done some bad things, but look at who is opposing them, people who literally have no problem cutting people's heads off because they disagree with a religious perspective.

The "Palestinians" have NEVER had a sovereign state, they have NEVER had any "territory", and they have always been just a part of Egypt, Jordan, Syria, or Israel.

Pauls' Revere
05-31-2010, 12:17 PM
What is Iran's reponse?

catdd
05-31-2010, 12:18 PM
"No one broke into anyone's "home" here"

They invaded private property without permission in International waters; that could be loosely defined as someone's "home."

TheFlashlight.org
05-31-2010, 12:19 PM
I'm well aware of the history of the region, and I spent a lengthy period of time in Gaza, the West Bank, and in the rest of Israel prior to the current insurrection.

Israel has 6 million people, who are daily subjected to reminders from their neighboring countries that those countries would like nothing more than to be able to drive Israelis into the sea. Now, I don't deny that the Israelis have done some bad things, but look at who is opposing them, people who literally have no problem cutting people's heads off because they disagree with a religious perspective.

The "Palestinians" have NEVER had a sovereign state, they have NEVER had any "territory", and they have always been just a part of Egypt, Jordan, Syria, or Israel.

Yes, that's the most extreme view of the situation, completely and totally biased in support of Israel and practically verbatim from Israeli state propaganda, why shouldn't we believe it?

specsaregood
05-31-2010, 12:20 PM
"No one broke into anyone's "home" here"

They invaded private property without permission in International waters; that could be loosely defined as someone's "home."

Just wondering, how do you know the ship's captain did not give the boarding party permission to board?

John Taylor
05-31-2010, 12:21 PM
You forgot to mention how Israel wants to use its sovereign property, to starve, malnourish, humiliate, harass, isolate, and dehumanize an ethnic group that it is badly trying to ethnically cleanse from its territory. So, yeah, kind of a big oversight, don't you think? The governments have a sovereign right to enslave and malnourish children now? Wow.

Furthermore, Israel is not a woman, so quit the bullshit.

Cut the bullshit propoganda. That is not what is happening in Israel, nor what has happened there. When you have a country 50 miles wide and 150 miles long, surrounded by enemies who would like to complete the holocaust, who continually tell Israelis that they look forward to the day when they can kill them all, and who have continually sent suicide bombers into Israel, killing innocent nursery school children and civilians indiscriminately. Israel only closed Gaza AFTER HAMAS took over in a COUP. These ships just had to declare what they were bringing in, and refrain from trying to kill Israelis while they were there... not too much to ask---and it isn't a betrayal of non-interventionism to suggest this, that Israel has the right to self defense.

John Taylor
05-31-2010, 12:23 PM
"No one broke into anyone's "home" here"

They invaded private property without permission in International waters; that could be loosely defined as someone's "home."

No, according to 500 years of the laws of the sea, Israel was acting legitimately to prevent Turkish vessels from intervening in a domestic police action.

John Taylor
05-31-2010, 12:25 PM
Yes, that's the most extreme view of the situation, completely and totally biased in support of Israel and practically verbatim from Israeli state propaganda, why shouldn't we believe it?

Extreme view? Perhaps you haven't considered how Israel is 50 miles wide, and has a large number of people who wish to kill the entire Jewish population if they have the opportunity. Go there and look for yourself if you think there is some Zionist conspiracy. Go drive through the West Bank and be pulled out of your car by Hamas gunmen who tell you that they'd like nothing more than to be able to kill Israelis, men women, children, the elderly, it doesn't matter...

TheFlashlight.org
05-31-2010, 12:29 PM
Cut the bullshit propoganda. That is not what is happening in Israel, nor what has happened there. When you have a country 50 miles wide and 150 miles long, surrounded by enemies who would like to complete the holocaust, who continually tell Israelis that they look forward to the day when they can kill them all, and who have continually sent suicide bombers into Israel, killing innocent nursery school children and civilians indiscriminately. Israel only closed Gaza AFTER HAMAS took over in a COUP. These ships just had to declare what they were bringing in, and refrain from trying to kill Israelis while they were there... not too much to ask---and it isn't a betrayal of non-interventionism to suggest this, that Israel has the right to self defense.

It appears that you firmly believe this ludicrous interpretation. You should really look into the situation deeper. Don't be too biased to listen to Chomsky and evaluate what he says, he's Jewish, BTW.

YouTube - Noam Chomsky: The United States - Israel's Godfather (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30X2tYUGK_8)

TheFlashlight.org
05-31-2010, 12:29 PM
YouTube - Noam Chomsky On Gaza - 2009.01.13 - MIT (1 of 11) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uuWm3G1FZvU&feature=related)

Good beginning about how Israel consciously plans to start its wars at times that will maximize the amount of women and children it can slaughter dead in the streets with the most advanced military hardware available.

Meatwasp
05-31-2010, 12:33 PM
Pull our troops out of there and not get involved over there again. Geeze.

MelissaWV
05-31-2010, 12:33 PM
The most recent version of the story (emphasis mine):


JERUSALEM – Israeli naval commandos stormed a flotilla of ships carrying aid and hundreds of pro-Palestinian activists to the blockaded Gaza Strip on Monday, killing nine passengers in a botched raid that provoked international outrage and a diplomatic crisis.

Dozens of activists and six Israeli soldiers were wounded in the bloody predawn confrontation in international waters. The violent takeover dealt yet another blow to Israel's international image, already tarnished by war crimes accusations in Gaza and its 3-year-old blockade of the impoverished Palestinian territory.

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanhayu canceled a much-anticipated meeting with President Barack Obama in Washington on Tuesday in a sign of just how gravely Israel viewed the uproar. In Canada, Netanyahu announced he was rushing home but said he had called the American president and agreed to meet again.

President Barack Obama voiced "deep regret" over the raid and "expressed the importance of learning all the facts and circumstances" surrounding the incident.

The activists were headed to Gaza to draw attention to the blockade, which Israel and Egypt imposed after the militant Hamas group seized the territory of 1.5 million Palestinians in 2007.

There were conflicting accounts of what happened early Monday, with activists claiming the Israelis opened fire without provocation and Israel insisting its forces fired in self defense.

Speaking alongside the Canadian prime minister, Netanyahu expressed "regret" for the loss of life but said the soldiers had no choice. "Our soldiers had to defend themselves, defend their lives, or they would have been killed," he said.

Israel said it opened fire after its commandos were attacked by knives, clubs and live fire from two pistols wrested from soldiers after they rappelled from a helicopter at about 4 a.m. to board one of the vessels.

Night-vision footage released by the military showed soldiers dropping from a helicopter one by one and being grabbed by a mob of men wielding sticks on the lead boat, the Turkish-flagged Mavi Marmara. The soldiers succumbed to the assailants and fell to the deck, where the men continued to beat them and dump one of them from the top deck.

A commando who spoke to reporters on a naval vessel off the coast, identified only as "A," said he and his comrades were taken off guard by a group of Arabic-speaking men when they landed on the deck.

Some soldiers were stripped of their helmets and equipment and thrown from the top deck to the lower deck, and some had even jumped overboard to save themselves, the commando said. At one point one of the activists seized one of the soldiers' weapons and opened fire, the commando said.

Communications to the ships were cut shortly after the raid began, and activists were kept away from reporters after their boats were towed to the Israeli port of Ashdod.

Helicopters evacuated the wounded to Israeli hospitals, officials said. Five ships had reached port by early evening and some 136 activists had been removed without serious incident, the military said.

Sixteen were jailed for refusing to identify themselves, police spokesman Micky Rosenfeld said. Israel had said activists would be given the choice to be deported or imprisoned.

Israeli officials said the death toll was nine with 30 wounded, after earlier saying 10 people were killed. It said the final tally was reached after bringing all six boats in the flotilla under control.

A high-ranking naval official displayed a box confiscated from the boat containing switchblades, slingshots, metal balls and metal bats. Most of the dead were Turkish, he said.

In a sign the soldiers didn't anticipate such fierce resistance, two commandos told The Associated Press that the primary weapons were guns that fired paintballs — a nonlethal weapon that can be used to subdue crowds. They said they resorted to lethal handgun fire after they were assaulted.

Turkey's NTV network showed activists beating one commando with sticks as he landed on one of the boats. Dr. Arnon Afek, deputy director of Chaim Sheba Medical Center outside Tel Aviv, said two commandos were brought in with gunshot wounds. Another had serious head wounds from an unspecified blow, Afek added.

Activists, however, painted a completely different picture, saying the commandos stormed the ships after ordering them to stop in international waters, about 80 miles (130 kilometers) from Gaza's coast.

A reporter with the pan-Arab satellite channel Al-Jazeera, who was sailing on the Turkish ship leading the flotilla, said the Israelis fired at the vessel before boarding it, wounding the captain.

"These savages are killing people here, please help," a Turkish television reporter said.

The broadcast ended with a voice shouting in Hebrew, "Everybody shut up!"

At Barzilai hospital in the southern Israeli city of Ashkelon, a few activists trickled in under military escort. "They hit me," said a Greek man, whose right arm was in a sling, calling the Israelis "pirates." He did not give his name and later was escorted away with a neck brace.

At a news conference in Tel Aviv, Israel's military chief of staff and navy commander said the violence was centered on the lead boat, which was carrying 600 of the 700 activists. Troops took over the five other boats without incident, military chief Gabi Ashkenazi said.

Reaction was swift and harsh, with a massive protest in Turkey, Israel's longtime Muslim ally, which unofficially supported the mission. Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan accused Israel of "state terrorism," and the government said it was recalling its ambassador and called off military exercises with the Jewish state.

The U.N. Security Council held an emergency meeting later Monday, while the Arab League planned to meet Tuesday in Cairo.

Robin Churchill, a professor of international law at the University of Dundee in Scotland, said the Israeli commandos boarded the ship outside of Israel's territorial waters.

"As far as I can see, there is no legal basis for boarding these ships," Churchill said.

Many of the activists were from Europe.

The European Union deplored what it called excessive use of force and called for the Gaza blockade to be lifted immediately, calling it "politically unacceptable."

Israeli security forces were on alert across the country. Protesters gathered at two universities and burned tires and threw rocks in Israel's largest Arab city, but no injuries were reported.

Organizers said two prominent activists, 1976 Nobel Peace Prize laureate Mairead Corrigan Maguire and Holocaust survivor Hedy Epstein, 85, did not join the flotilla as planned.

Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas condemned the Israeli "massacre," declared three days of mourning across the West Bank.

Ismail Haniyeh, leader of the rival Hamas government in Gaza, condemned the "brutal" Israeli attack and called on U.N. Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon to intervene.

In Uganda, Ban condemned the deaths and called for a "thorough" investigation.

Before the ships set sail from waters off Cyprus on Sunday, Israel had urged the flotilla not to try to breach the blockade and offered to transfer some of the cargo to Gaza from an Israeli port, following a security inspection.

Organizers included the IHH, an Islamic humanitarian group that is based in Istanbul but operates in several other countries. Israel outlawed the group in 2008 because of its ties to Hamas.

The flotilla of three cargo ships and three passenger ships carrying 10,000 tons of aid and 700 activists was carrying items that Israel bars from reaching Gaza, like cement and other building materials.

Israel has allowed ships through five times, but has blocked them from entering Gaza waters since a three-week military offensive against Gaza's Hamas rulers in January 2009.

A couple of things to note...

Has there been anyone to refute the claim that the ship was in international waters?

Why would you need to jump from a helicopter onto a ship at 4am if all you anticipate is perhaps having to subdue a protester or two? Why would you have pistols on you?

Why would activists just be waiting around with weaponry at 4am? Isn't it more likely that there was tension, or perhaps even shots fired as the story reports, and that the people on board this ship were in a retaliatory mood?

If the fighting was so brutal and life-threatening, why the incredible difference in dead/wounded between the commandos and the activists?

John Taylor
05-31-2010, 12:34 PM
YouTube - Noam Chomsky On Gaza - 2009.01.13 - MIT (1 of 11) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uuWm3G1FZvU&feature=related)

I'm familiar with Chomsky, and with his affiliations with communism and state athoritarianism worldwide.

The point here is, we don't know all the details, and we don't know why this "aid" ship refused to go to an actual port in Israel to unload and go through customs like everyone else and their mother, but we do know that Israel is a sovereign nation and that those of you who claim to be non-interventionists who advocate putting the screws to Israel for acting as Israel believes necessary to secure Israeli security are completely inconsistent.

Pauls' Revere
05-31-2010, 12:36 PM
Iran calls for emergency OIC meeting.

Brazil pulls thier Envoy from Israel.

http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=128535&sectionid=351020101

John Taylor
05-31-2010, 12:39 PM
The most recent version of the story (emphasis mine):



A couple of things to note...

Has there been anyone to refute the claim that the ship was in international waters?

Why would you need to jump from a helicopter onto a ship at 4am if all you anticipate is perhaps having to subdue a protester or two? Why would you have pistols on you?

Why would activists just be waiting around with weaponry at 4am? Isn't it more likely that there was tension, or perhaps even shots fired as the story reports, and that the people on board this ship were in a retaliatory mood?

If the fighting was so brutal and life-threatening, why the incredible difference in dead/wounded between the commandos and the activists?

Perhaps, the United States claims over 100 miles of coastline as territorial waters. Perhaps Israel does as well.

Why would you be armed? Perhaps because in border interdiction matters involving hundreds of people attempting to skirt customs, there is a possibility for violence. The commandos used pistols instead of their primary weapons only after they were attacked (as has been proven on the released video of the incident.)

The "activists" knew that the Israelis were coming, so naturally they were waiting around on board, only 80 miles off shore...

As I've seen it reported, at least 6 commandos were injured, some of them seriously. They were wearing body armor to begin with, so it's no surprise that there's a difference in casualties...

MelissaWV
05-31-2010, 12:47 PM
Perhaps, the United States claims over 100 miles of coastline as territorial waters. Perhaps Israel does as well.

Why would you be armed? Perhaps because in border interdiction matters involving hundreds of people attempting to skirt customs, there is a possibility for violence. The commandos used pistols instead of their primary weapons only after they were attacked (as has been proven on the released video of the incident.)

The "activists" knew that the Israelis were coming, so naturally they were waiting around on board, only 80 miles off shore...

As I've seen it reported, at least 6 commandos were injured, some of them seriously. They were wearing body armor to begin with, so it's no surprise that there's a difference in casualties...

I don't find the answers to be as simple as you do, to put it plainly. If the waters are international waters, the rules are different, and it's simply not up for debate. Boarding ships in international waters has an entirely different connotation than boarding ships in your own territorial waters.

I am asking why the troops would be armed if, as they are now putting out reports claiming, they thought it was going to be a cakewalk and that's why they had paintball guns. I would be curious to see how many paintballs were fired, or were those weapons cast aside immediately in favor of pistols?

The activists knew the Israelis were coming at 4am via helicopter? The scenarios seem to be that they were simply standing around waiting for the first boots to hit the deck so they could storm out at the commandos (which seems odd... why bring clubs and slingshots, then? If the intent is to harm/kill the Israelis, why wouldn't they have smuggled better weapons with them?)... or the other scenario, which would include, I guess, someone watching out for the Israeli ship/helicopter and shouting down a warning, at which point people grabbed the nearest bat and came up on deck. Both of these sound a little hokey, but are plausible. It's also plausible, though, that the Israelis shot the captain of THAT particular ship, knowing who/what was aboard, and then stormed aboard. I'll wait for more information on this one, as it's the most important part of this whole thing: who initiated the actual force involved? Keep in mind that shots being fired would not necessarily be captured on the video that was released. All that video shows is that the people on the ship were really damned pissed when the Israelis boarded.

They were wearing body armor to begin, but Israel itself has reported that people had their armor and helmets removed in some cases, and several people were dashed from the upper deck to the lower one. There were shots fired, and bats, and stabbings... and six injured? Something about that seems a bit strange. Either the fighting was not as fearsome as depicted in reports, or there are more injured and the reports are simply inaccurate.

Edit:

I forgot to add why I bolded the portion about the activists' reason for the visit. In addition to aid, they were trying to "draw attention" to the situation. This makes me a wee bit suspicious of the flotilla. There certainly is a lot of attention focused on the blockade now, isn't there.... However, Israel knew they were coming, knew what might happen, and went in there like this anyhow. It seems almost deliberately stupid.

michaelwise
05-31-2010, 12:49 PM
Jews spread their hatred all over the world by playing the victim. They mastered this skill long ago. They seem to think this gives them the right to pillage and plunder the entire planet. It's a psychological mind fuck that doesn't affect me but it does affect many weak minded people. I see right through the trick.

TheFlashlight.org
05-31-2010, 12:49 PM
I'm familiar with Chomsky, and with his affiliations with communism and state athoritarianism worldwide.

The point here is, we don't know all the details, and we don't know why this "aid" ship refused to go to an actual port in Israel to unload and go through customs like everyone else and their mother, but we do know that Israel is a sovereign nation and that those of you who claim to be non-interventionists who advocate putting the screws to Israel for acting as Israel believes necessary to secure Israeli security are completely inconsistent.

He's also an undeniable intellectual force and historian. It's really simple, Israel has a state imposed ghetto in Gaza and they want to harass these people until they are dead or leave. People who try to being in food and medicine are killed.

Cheerleaders like you, who undoubtedly have religious voodoo justifications for loving Israel, invent fanciful narratives to interpret reality in a way palatable with their deeply held biases.

pcosmar
05-31-2010, 12:50 PM
The point here is, we don't know all the details, and we don't know why this "aid" ship refused to go to an actual port in Israel to unload and go through customs like everyone else and their mother, but we do know that Israel is a sovereign nation and that those of you who claim to be non-interventionists who advocate putting the screws to Israel for acting as Israel believes necessary to secure Israeli security are completely inconsistent.

Yes we do. Or I have a good understanding and was watching and following as these events unfolded.
1st. They were not going to Israel. so Israeli customs are a moot point. The point was to end the illegal blockade.
2nd. they were in International waters when they were attacked. That is either an Act of Piracy or an Act of War.
3rd. My tax dollars have propped up Israel and supplied them with arms, So I do have an interest.

John Taylor
05-31-2010, 12:51 PM
I don't find the answers to be as simple as you do, to put it plainly. If the waters are international waters, the rules are different, and it's simply not up for debate. Boarding ships in international waters has an entirely different connotation than boarding ships in your own territorial waters..

If the waters are domestic waters, territorial waters, which they very well might be, then you have to accept that there is a very different connotation. In any event, this ship WAS clearly attempting to enter the territorial waters of Israel.


I am asking why the troops would be armed if, as they are now putting out reports claiming, they thought it was going to be a cakewalk and that's why they had paintball guns. I would be curious to see how many paintballs were fired, or were those weapons cast aside immediately in favor of pistols?.

Why would they be armed? Jesus Christ, are you serious?


The activists knew the Israelis were coming at 4am via helicopter? The scenarios seem to be that they were simply standing around waiting for the first boots to hit the deck so they could storm out at the commandos (which seems odd... why bring clubs and slingshots, then? If the intent is to harm/kill the Israelis, why wouldn't they have smuggled better weapons with them?)... or the other scenario, which would include, I guess, someone watching out for the Israeli ship/helicopter and shouting down a warning, at which point people grabbed the nearest bat and came up on deck. Both of these sound a little hokey, but are plausible. It's also plausible, though, that the Israelis shot the captain of THAT particular ship, knowing who/what was aboard, and then stormed aboard. I'll wait for more information on this one, as it's the most important part of this whole thing: who initiated the actual force involved? Keep in mind that shots being fired would not necessarily be captured on the video that was released. All that video shows is that the people on the ship were really damned pissed when the Israelis boarded.

They were wearing body armor to begin, but Israel itself has reported that people had their armor and helmets removed in some cases, and several people were dashed from the upper deck to the lower one. There were shots fired, and bats, and stabbings... and six injured? Something about that seems a bit strange. Either the fighting was not as fearsome as depicted in reports, or there are more injured and the reports are simply inaccurate.


hx x p://www.youtube.com/user/idfnadesk#p/u/6/0LulDJh4fWI

watch the video of what actually happened.

Hiki
05-31-2010, 12:52 PM
At least 19 people were killed

Right now, the death toll is around 10.


"All the images being shown from the activists on board those ships show clearly that they were civilians and peaceful in nature, with medical supplies on board. So it will surprise many in the international community to learn what could have possibly led to this type of confrontation," he said.

h ttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2duPV9MQIc

h ttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYjkLUcbJWo

Yah, really "peaceful" civilians :p

e. I dont understand why these links dont work

Dojo
05-31-2010, 12:55 PM
Live coverage of the Security Council, General Assembly, press conferences

http://www.livestation.com/channels/79-united_nations_tv_english

Vessol
05-31-2010, 12:57 PM
Anyone else always find it sickenly hilarious how Israel is always the victim? And those "attacking" them are always poorly armed?

This is how statistics work with Israel.

Rocket attack from a piece of shit old as hell mortor that gives someone a cut ---> Bomb a hospital full of hundreds of people

A bunch of teenagers throwing rocks ---> Shoot them with machines guns

A poorly armed and ragtag group of badly trained idiots ---> Invade with a massive force of tanks and soldiers armed to the teeth with American and France supplied weapons.

A handful of people on a ship using improvised weapons ---> Shoot them with machine guns.

John Taylor
05-31-2010, 12:57 PM
ISRAEL IS BEHIND THE 9/11 ATTACKS!

but with their media PR machine they've got people convinced that they are "victims"...

unbelievable!

The entire planet needs to declare war on this psycho nation...

people who apologize for these sociopaths make me sick.

You're a sick man, and you need to get off this forum.

Google "non-interventionism" and stop advocating genocide.

John Taylor
05-31-2010, 12:58 PM
Live coverage of the Security Council, General Assembly, press conferences

http://www.livestation.com/channels/79-united_nations_tv_english

Oh God, the Security Council!!!! We know where their loyalties lie.

John Taylor
05-31-2010, 12:59 PM
Anyone else always find it sickenly hilarious how Israel is always the victim? And those "attacking" them are always poorly armed?

This is how statistics work with Israel.

Rocket attack from a piece of shit old as hell mortor that gives someone a cut ---> Bomb a hospital full of hundreds of people

A bunch of teenagers throwing rocks ---> Shoot them with machines guns

A poorly armed and ragtag group of badly trained idiots ---> Invade with a massive force of tanks and soldiers armed to the teeth with American and France supplied weapons.

A handful of people on a ship using improvised weapons ---> Shoot them with machine guns.

This is ludicrous. Who wrote this, Yassir Arafat?

The people shot on the ships were shot with pistols, after the commandos were attacked.

Vessol
05-31-2010, 12:59 PM
I don't think we should do anything with Israel, except withdraw all monetary and military support. Let them fight their own battles instead of having us protect them, see how arrogant they are then. The Israeli government is endangering the lives of its civilians by continuing this insane behavior. Israeli's should not stand up for this, they are endangering themselves.

Vessol
05-31-2010, 01:01 PM
This is ludicrous. Who wrote this, Yassir Arafat?

The people shot on the ships were shot with pistols, after the commandos were attacked.

As quoted by Israeli sources, there are no other sources in the matter.

What's stopping some commando's from dropping a few spare weapons here and there to make it look like they were armed?

It happens all the time. I had a friend in Iraq who would carry a spare shovel with him at all times so incase he shot a civilian he could put the shovel in the civilians hands to make him officially armed. In Vietnam, oftentimes after a village was massacred of unarmed people, American commando's would go through and drop weapons throughout the village to make them appear armed. It's a well practiced routine by many military's in today's world, the Russians did it tons in Chechnya

sofia
05-31-2010, 01:02 PM
You're a sick man, and you need to get off this forum.

Google "non-interventionism" and stop advocating genocide.

Does "non interventionism" means I have to remain silent while Israel butchers innocent people...with weapons that I paid for???
\


Take ur neo-con Zionist crap out of here....

Israeli commandos now bitching that they were attacked when they pirated the ship!!!!!!!!


always the victim ....always

healthpellets
05-31-2010, 01:02 PM
Jews spread their hatred all over the world by playing the victim. They mastered this skill long ago. They seem to think this gives them the right to pillage and plunder the entire planet. It's a psychological mind fuck that doesn't affect me but it does affect many weak minded people. I see right through the trick.

sweet. did you go pick up your hood from the cleaners for the meeting tonight?

Hiki
05-31-2010, 01:05 PM
As quoted by Israeli sources, there are no other sources in the matter.

What's stopping some commando's from dropping a few spare weapons here and there to make it look like they were armed?

It happens all the time. I had a friend in Iraq who would carry a spare shovel with him at all times so incase he shot a civilian he could put the shovel in the civilians hands to make him officially armed. In Vietnam, oftentimes after a village was massacred of unarmed people, American commando's would go through and drop weapons throughout the village to make them appear armed. It's a well practiced routine by many military's in today's world, the Russians did it tons in Chechnya

The pistols were taken from the soldiers, other proof of weapons is very scarce and mostly rumors.

John Taylor
05-31-2010, 01:10 PM
The pistols were taken from the soldiers, other proof of weapons is very scarce and mostly rumors.

Did you NOT watch the video????

hx xp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0LulDJh4fWI

These "activists" initiated force against a sovereign nation insisting that a ship entering go through customs... and they cry foul... hilarious.

The videos CLEARLY show the Israelis using paintball guns against the people attacking and beating them with pipes. That's what I'd call, restraint.

michaelwise
05-31-2010, 01:12 PM
Jewish hatred of Arabs is well documented. Jews hate everybody who is not Jewish and they demonstrate this by economically enslaving everyone around them by controlling the entire financial system as well as being at the head of all the major corporations. They have taken control of US foreign policy and promote their propaganda through thru the TV and entertainment industry they control. They get the US to fight their battles for them. I have had more than enough of their crap to last me a lifetime.

Jews spread their hatred all over the world by playing the victim. They mastered this skill long ago. They seem to think this gives them the right to pillage and plunder the entire planet. It's a psychological mind fuck that doesn't affect me but it does affect many weak minded people. I see right through the trick.

Please Love the Jews and all peoples of the Earth. You cannot win the battle against Jewish world domination with hatred in your hearts. Rejecting the arbitrary schemes and scams the Jews put in place to dominate you does not mean you hate them as they would like you to believe. It just means you love yourself and others enough to stop the evil Jewish practices and insure your and others liberties are upheld.

Vessol
05-31-2010, 01:13 PM
Did you NOT watch the video????

hx xp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0LulDJh4fWI

These "activists" initiated force against a sovereign nation insisting that a ship entering go through customs... and they cry foul... hilarious.

This was an insanely stupid move in Israeli's part, they would not have done this without our 'Ok'. Because we protect them. Stop that protection and they'll actually stop trying to be the bully of the neighborhood, unless they want to get wiped out.

I say if Iran wants to attack Israel, let them. Two sovereign nations. I'm guessing you'll want to defend Israel with our taxpayer money though.

sofia
05-31-2010, 01:13 PM
Did you NOT watch the video????

hx xp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0LulDJh4fWI

These "activists" initiated force against a sovereign nation insisting that a ship entering go through customs... and they cry foul... hilarious.

Customs????

They were headed for Gaza!!! Not Tel Aviv!

Force????

Their peaceful ship was INVADED by commados!!!!

That's like me breaking into your home at 4 AM....you grab a baseball bat and try to stop me...

I then shoot you and cry "Taylor attacked me".....

typical jewish chutzpah

Vessol
05-31-2010, 01:15 PM
Jewish hatred of Arabs is well documented. Jews hate everybody who is not Jewish and they demonstrate this by economically enslaving everyone around them by controlling the entire financial system as well as being at the head of all the major corporations. They have taken control of US foreign policy and promote their propaganda through thru the TV and entertainment industry they control. They get the US to fight their battles for them. I have had more than enough of their crap to last me a lifetime.

Jews spread their hatred all over the world by playing the victim. They mastered this skill long ago. They seem to think this gives them the right to pillage and plunder the entire planet. It's a psychological mind fuck that doesn't affect me but it does affect many weak minded people. I see right through the trick.

Please Love the Jews and all peoples of the Earth. You cannot win the battle against Jewish world domination with hatred in your hearts. Rejecting the arbitrary schemes and scams the Jews put in place to dominate you does not mean you hate them as they would like you to believe. It just means you love yourself and others enough to stop the evil Jewish practices and insure your and others liberties are upheld.

Ugh, you're not helping. This is the problem is the Israeli government, not all Jews. The Israeli government is corrupt and powerhungry and does whatever it wants because the US and most of Europe defend it. Their actions endanger the Israeli people only further, their government is just as out of control as our own. We should work with independent Israeli's to help get rid of their government as we do ours and replace it with one of liberty.

sofia
05-31-2010, 01:16 PM
Ugh, you're not helping. This is the problem is the Israeli government, not all Jews. The Israeli government is corrupt and powerhungry and does whatever it wants because the US and most of Europe defend it.

at most, only 5% of jews will condemn this murderous act.....

silence = complicity

John Taylor
05-31-2010, 01:16 PM
Customs????

They were headed for Gaza!!! Not Tel Aviv!

Force????

Their peaceful ship was INVADED by commados!!!!

That's like me breaking into your home at 4 AM....you grab a baseball bat and try to stop me...

I then shoot you and cry "Taylor attacked me".....

typical jewish chutzpah

Customs. Yes, and Israel controls them, and for the internal security of their country can control what is or is not brought into Gaza.

Gaza is under the control of a terrorist group which has been responsible for murdering hundreds and hundreds of men, women and children in cold blood.

Force, yes. Take off your SS helmet and watch the fucking videos.

This ship was not home to these people, they set themselves on a collision course with Israel, deliberately, and they attempted to enter Israeli territorial waters.

You're a bigot, and don't belong on these forums.

John Taylor
05-31-2010, 01:18 PM
at most, only 5% of jews will condemn this murderous act.....

silence = complicity

Ah yes, silence is complicity, they are all guilty because they are silent and Jewish...

keep on writing Dr. Goebbels.

sofia
05-31-2010, 01:18 PM
Customs. Yes, and Israel controls them, and for the internal security of their country can control what is or is not brought into Gaza.

Gaza is under the control of a terrorist group which has been responsible for murdering hundreds and hundreds of men, women and children in cold blood.

Force, yes. Take off your SS helmet and watch the fucking videos.

This ship was not home to these people, they set themselves on a collision course with Israel, deliberately, and they attempted to enter Israeli territorial waters.

You're a bigot, and don't belong on these forums.

let's hear your apology for the deliberate Israeli MURDER of 35 US Sailors on June 8, 1967....USS Liberty...

Go ahead Zionist Boy....this I gotta hear

Vessol
05-31-2010, 01:19 PM
at most, only 5% of jews will condemn this murderous act.....

silence = complicity

A similar amount of Americans, around 5% actually condemn our own murderous actions, not all of the 95% others are guilty and support it. Many of them either don't care, or are uninformed of it due to the media. It is the same in Israel IMO.

Israeli's government is the real guilty party, not all Israeli's. However they will be viewed like this by their neighbors which is gross negligence from their own government that is only allowed to continue this madness due to our support.

John Taylor
05-31-2010, 01:20 PM
This was an insanely stupid move in Israeli's part, they would not have done this without our 'Ok'. Because we protect them. Stop that protection and they'll actually stop trying to be the bully of the neighborhood, unless they want to get wiped out.

I say if Iran wants to attack Israel, let them. Two sovereign nations. I'm guessing you'll want to defend Israel with our taxpayer money though.

Wrong. Google Non-interventionism.

fj45lvr
05-31-2010, 01:20 PM
Jewish hatred of Arabs is well documented. Jews hate everybody who is not Jewish and they demonstrate this by economically enslaving everyone around them by controlling the entire financial system as well as being at the head of all the major corporations. They have taken control of US foreign policy and promote their propaganda through thru the TV and entertainment industry they control. They get the US to fight their battles for them. I have had more than enough of their crap to last me a lifetime.

Jews spread their hatred all over the world by playing the victim. They mastered this skill long ago. They seem to think this gives them the right to pillage and plunder the entire planet. It's a psychological mind fuck that doesn't affect me but it does affect many weak minded people. I see right through the trick.

Please Love the Jews and all peoples of the Earth. You cannot win the battle against Jewish world domination with hatred in your hearts. Rejecting the arbitrary schemes and scams the Jews put in place to dominate you does not mean you hate them as they would like you to believe. It just means you love yourself and others enough to stop the evil Jewish practices and insure your and others liberties are upheld.

with some jewish blood I think this is BS. what Israel does and the zionists have done is not a "jewish" issue. Many jews (not sure percentages here) reject zionism and alot of what the state of Israel does (just like many of us reject things our government does).

I hope you can recognize this truth as many jews are our friends for Liberty and justice both here and abroad.

Hiki
05-31-2010, 01:21 PM
Customs????

They were headed for Gaza!!! Not Tel Aviv!

Force????

Their peaceful ship was INVADED by commados!!!!

That's like me breaking into your home at 4 AM....you grab a baseball bat and try to stop me...

I then shoot you and cry "Taylor attacked me".....

typical jewish chutzpah

And gaza is closed off because of a naval blockade preventing ALL vessels to enter the area. Everyone knows that, and according to international law Israel acted legally in intercepting this flotilla. They brought this attack on themselves, and if you look at the videos I posted then the description "peaceful" is pretty far-off.

In order to take control over the vessel it's reasonable that they had to board the vessel, which they did and were attacked.

MelissaWV
05-31-2010, 01:21 PM
If the waters are domestic waters, territorial waters, which they very well might be, then you have to accept that there is a very different connotation. In any event, this ship WAS clearly attempting to enter the territorial waters of Israel.

Why would they be armed? Jesus Christ, are you serious?

hx x p://www.youtube.com/user/idfnadesk#p/u/6/0LulDJh4fWI

watch the video of what actually happened.

I've seen the video, thank you. Once again, it is not all-encompassing. The jury is still out on the circumstances for me, but it's fishy on both sides. That's the worst sort of mess, by the way, since if it's not resolved to the satisfaction of everyone involved... both sides claim they are in the right, and will fight perpetually. Granted, these sides have been fighting for long enough, but it'll escalate.

The video you linked to, by the way, begins with lines already in place from the helicopter to the ship. This automatically means it is not showing you the initiation of force at all, but cuts in DURING the event. It does not refute what I've said previously. The "soldier being thrown off the ship" does not appear to be thrown off the ship, but into a lifeboat, at least from this particular video. The "metal rods" could really be anything just from the video, so I would need to actually hear accounts from witnesses on both sides before coming to a decision. The fact that chairs are being swung around as weapons doesn't make it seem like much of an ambush, does it? I mean, you go all that way, and that's the best "weapon" with which you arm yourself to go against Israeli commandos? Keep in mind the people on the ship did not really have any way to know that the Israelis would be using paintball guns. If the goal, again, was to harm and kill the commandos, why chairs?

At the end, there's a close-up of a knife which looks hilariously similar to one I use to cut open boxes :p I suppose that's one of the knives that caused injury to one of the six commandos... it looks awfully clean. It is interesting to note that viewing other videos reveals the use of stun grenades and "firebombs" that seem to have been thrown off of the ship (in the former's case) and that everyone just got away from (in the latter's case). It's also interesting that the "firebomb" was thrown in the midst of activists and commandos alike. Lastly, it's intriguing that some of the videos identify a "long metal pole" as being used, but it's flimsy and bends in the video, and what one video identifies as a "large metal object," another clearly shows to be a lawn chair.

One last note on the videos. Bias is a strange thing. There is a video purporting to show the array of weaponry found on the ship in the aftermath. One of the weapons is what looks distinctly like someone's touristy shopping bag full of those little beads you put at the bottom of vases. Some of the people getting off of these ships were simply dressed in casual clothes and carrying books and such. Still, in the eyes of whomever was shooting the video, this was on par with the slingshots that littered the deck.

As for your other question: Jesus Christ, I am serious.

Please read it again:


In a sign the soldiers didn't anticipate such fierce resistance, two commandos told The Associated Press that the primary weapons were guns that fired paintballs — a nonlethal weapon that can be used to subdue crowds.


They "didn't anticipate such fierce resistance," but leapt out of helicopters at 4am with pistols ready enough to be employed at a moment's notice?

It still stinks to me on both sides. I'm wondering why people are so quick to jump to conclusions for either side's benefit.

Vessol
05-31-2010, 01:21 PM
Wrong. Google Non-interventionism.

You avoid the topic. I'm not for intervening in this incident, I'm for ending all support to Israel. Let them reap the rewards of their actions without our protection.

Imaginos
05-31-2010, 01:21 PM
Defend what is indefensible, ADL style, baby! LOLOL.
Thank you for infiltrating joining us!
:D
Shall I join you gentlemen? I heard they pay you quite well.
I swear I will do my best to convince people that we have to stand with Israel until the day we die.
I'll be a good infiltrator, just like you, sir!

John Taylor
05-31-2010, 01:22 PM
let's hear your apology for the deliberate Israeli MURDER of 35 US Sailors on June 8, 1967....USS Liberty...

Go ahead Zionist Boy....this I gotta hear

There's no excuse for deliberate murder... like those perpetuated by the people backing these "aid" ships against innocent Israeli civilians.

Why don't you run along back to "stormfront", and leave those of us who actually care about philosophical consistency to discuss adult matters.

sofia
05-31-2010, 01:22 PM
A similar amount of Americans, around 5% actually condemn our own murderous actions, not all of the 95% others are guilty and support it. Many of them either don't care, or are uninformed of it due to the media. It is the same in Israel IMO.

Israeli's government is the real guilty party, not all Israeli's. However they will be viewed like this by their neighbors which is gross negligence from their own government that is only allowed to continue this madness due to our support.

Ignorance is no excuse.....I also hold 95% of Americans GUILTY as well....

thats why I wont be shedding tears for anybody when the inevitable shit hits the fan in this country......I've made my preperations....screw everyone else for voting for the McCains and Obama's of this world when I warned them not to

Vessol
05-31-2010, 01:23 PM
And gaza is closed off because of a naval blockade preventing ALL vessels to enter the area. Everyone knows that, and according to international law Israel acted legally in intercepting this flotilla. They brought this attack on themselves, and if you look at the videos I posted then the description "peaceful" is pretty far-off.

In order to take control over the vessel it's reasonable that they had to board the vessel, which they did and were attacked.

Except that the blockade in question is very questionable legally.

Where in international law is a nation allowed to hold an entire region captive and starve them to death?

John Taylor
05-31-2010, 01:24 PM
You avoid the topic. I'm not for intervening in this incident, I'm for ending all support to Israel. Let them reap the rewards of their actions without our protection.

Ok.... I don't disagree with that.

But I don't believe I have seen Israel do a single thing immoral here, in this circumstance, so I'm unwilling to join Dr. Goebbels in attacking them. From the evidence available, these customs commandos were threatened with deadly force, and responded with great restraint.

John Taylor
05-31-2010, 01:25 PM
Except that the blockade in question is very questionable legally.

Oh really? Enlighten me as to the intricacies of maritime blockade law and claimed territorial waters?

TheFlashlight.org
05-31-2010, 01:26 PM
To deluded Christian tyranny lovers, so the medicine and food will get to the starving children, right? I mean, that's one thing we can agree on, right? Oh, it won't. And you'll defend that because they could grow up to be suicide bombers! And you'll sublimate your sexual drive to think of Israel as some tender maiden. You'll subvert and channel all your natural animal instincts in the name of two second-rate, garbage religions that happened to spring up out of the desert and get adopted by leaders who thought it wold be compatible with pliant sheep serfs. Unfortunately, you're nothing but dupes with no historical or natural understanding of the universe. When I read the made up drivel in the Bible, it makes me aghast that anyone could actually love this garbage compared to the dynamic, interesting pantheons in other made up religions. But I guess stupid monkeys aren't very rational and they need the bullshit that was imprinted on their minds when they were young and incapable of rational thought.

michaelwise
05-31-2010, 01:26 PM
at most, only 5% of jews will condemn this murderous act.....

silence = complicitycomplicity = guilt

MelissaWV
05-31-2010, 01:27 PM
Oh really? Enlighten me as to the intricacies of maritime blockade law and claimed territorial waters?

Except that, once again, I've seen various claims that this was international waters. I haven't seen any that this happened on territorial waters. The location of the incident is going to greatly impact the world. It will paint how this is seen and how it is reacted to and, regrettably, how deep the US decides to stick us into it.

pcosmar
05-31-2010, 01:27 PM
In order to take control over the vessel it's reasonable that they had to board the vessel, which they did and were attacked.
Taking control of a vessel in international waters is an act of Piracy or of War.

They could have simply put a cruiser in front of them and Blocked their travel.

This was not necessary.

The United Nations considers the siege of Gaza to be illegal.

MelissaWV
05-31-2010, 01:27 PM
To deluded Christian tyranny lovers, so the medicine and food will get to the starving children, right? I mean, that's one thing we can agree on, right? Oh, it won't. And you'll defend that because they could grow up to be suicide bombers! And you'll sublimate your sexual drive to think of Israel as some tender maiden. You'll subvert and channel all your natural animal instincts in the name of two second-rate, garbage religions that happened to spring up out of the desert and get adopted by leaders who thought it wold be compatible with pliant sheep serfs. Unfortunately, you're nothing but dupes with no historical or natural understanding of the universe. When I read the made up drivel in the Bible, it makes me aghast that anyone could actually love this garbage compared to the dynamic, interesting pantheons in other made up religions. But I guess stupid monkeys aren't very rational and they need the bullshit that was imprinted on their minds when they were young and incapable of rational thought.

Huh?

Vessol
05-31-2010, 01:28 PM
Oh really? Enlighten me as to the intricacies of maritime blockade law and claimed territorial waters?

Considering that they are starving out unarmed human beings I'd say is pretty damning. But then again, that's their own business.

If it wasn't for our support in the past and present, they would have been swept into the sea years ago for their continued belligerence.


Huh?

My thoughts exactly.

TheFlashlight.org
05-31-2010, 01:29 PM
Huh?

Wow, perhaps you should read into the evangelical motivations of Israeli defenders, who are trying to defend prophecy to bring back their made up cult leader Jesus. Then you could read the AntiChrist by Nietzsche and perhaps some history of religion to understand my post and resond with something other than mouth agape drool.

DAFTEK
05-31-2010, 01:31 PM
Tens of Thousands of people? Maybe hundreds of thousands even?
http://finance.yahoo.com/q?s=NWS

Ok, let me rephrase, "WHO RUNS THE NETWORK AND PULLS THE STRINGS ON WHAT THE AMERICAN PEOPLE ARE TOLD???????"

John Taylor
05-31-2010, 01:32 PM
Except that, once again, I've seen various claims that this was international waters. I haven't seen any that this happened on territorial waters. The location of the incident is going to greatly impact the world. It will paint how this is seen and how it is reacted to and, regrettably, how deep the US decides to stick us into it.

The U.S. claims a hundred miles or so as I recall... while some countries only recognize 50, or 80 miles...

This ship was attempting to breach a blockade, and those on board were apprised that they needed to go into port and be cleared through customs previously...

At least try to maintain a veneer of neutrality.

lester1/2jr
05-31-2010, 01:33 PM
John taylor -

"Israel has 6 million people, who are daily subjected to reminders from their neighboring countries that those countries would like nothing more than to be able to drive Israelis into the sea."

oh for gods sake can we can it with this stuff just for one day. they just got on to a ship loaded with medical supplies and shot people. this isn't like the 1967 war or something.

we know israel has a superior form of government and has accomplished more than all it's neighbors combined in most measurable ways. this isn't about that.

Their predicament doesn't give them the right to do absolutely anything they can think of with no criticism

what if yo had been born in gaza john taylor? You'd be pretty happy to see a relief boat I think

John Taylor
05-31-2010, 01:33 PM
Wow, perhaps you should read into the evangelical motivations of Israeli defenders, who are trying to defend prophecy to bring back their made up cult leader Jesus. Then you could read the AntiChrist by Nietzsche and perhaps some history of religion to understand my post and resond with something other than mouth agape drool.

Nietzsche? Nice... perhaps if we'd only steep ourselves in Hegalian philosophy, we could solve this Jewish problem????


Keep on talking Dr. Goebbels.

MelissaWV
05-31-2010, 01:34 PM
Wow, perhaps you should read into the evangelical motivations of Israeli defenders, who are trying to defend prophecy to bring back their made up cult leader Jesus. Then you could read the AntiChrist by Nietzsche and perhaps some history of religion to understand my post and resond with something other than mouth agape drool.

Your original rambling was not really on topic, nor did it seem to address anyone in particular, nor did it make much sense. It was difficult to read purely from a structural standpoint, let alone on the basis of content. The introduction of Christian zealtory, practiced by a subset of Christians, into this thread seems to be a manifestation of your obvious bias, and serves no purpose. The dehumanization of Christians into "stupid monkeys" for your own entertainment pretty much seals the deal.

In other words, you're a troll, and I've yet to understand what your post has to do with the ship that was attacked, Israel doing the attacking, or even the slightly-linked subject of whether or not the United States should get involved (or will). The people in this thread defending Israel most vocally are not Evangelicals. The Christians condemning the action or waiting for more information are not "stupid monkeys."

To put it even more simply: fail.

John Taylor
05-31-2010, 01:35 PM
Taking control of a vessel in international waters is an act of Piracy or of War.

They could have simply put a cruiser in front of them and Blocked their travel.

This was not necessary.

The United Nations considers the siege of Gaza to be illegal.

International waters, or Israeli waters, does the U.S. have 80 miles, or 100, or 150?

The U.N.? Oh, let's only enforce what the U.N. wants, lets help them crush Rhodesia and Israel. Showing your true colors again. Nice.

devil21
05-31-2010, 01:36 PM
Ok.... I don't disagree with that.

But I don't believe I have seen Israel do a single thing immoral here, in this circumstance, so I'm unwilling to join Dr. Goebbels in attacking them. From the evidence available, these customs commandos were threatened with deadly force, and responded with great restraint.

I should have known you were a zionist sympathizer. The motivations for your trolling on this forum became a little clearer today.

You seem to have mastered the Zionist art of spin with that post. Nevermind that Israel has no authority to board boats in international waters in the first place. You're essentially saying that if someone breaks into your home or your car (carjacking) that the thug is the victim when he gets shot by an armed citizen resident/driver. Nevermind taking that a step farther of defending the thug if he shoots the homeowner!

"That poor thug just wanted some food to eat so he was going to borrow your mom's antique silver flatware. Then the evil racist homeowner suddenly opened fire on the hapless hungry man that only had the best of intentions."

Give it a rest. Nobody is buying that Israel victimization nonsense anymore.

specsaregood
05-31-2010, 01:36 PM
Ok, let me rephrase, "WHO RUNS THE NETWORK AND PULLS THE STRINGS ON WHAT THE AMERICAN PEOPLE ARE TOLD???????"

Oh, well thats an easy one. Reptillians.
http://72.73.236.82/photos/lizard.gif

fj45lvr
05-31-2010, 01:38 PM
The U.S. claims a hundred miles or so as I recall... while some countries only recognize 50, or 80 miles...

This ship was attempting to breach a blockade, and those on board were apprised that they needed to go into port and be cleared through customs previously...

At least try to maintain a veneer of neutrality.


Where does Israel think they control the coast of Gaza as "Israeli" territory??


the fact that you try to inject "neutrality" is laughable. Most of us have clear sides and hopefully that is based on some concrete reasoning.

The fact that you try to insinuate that the Palestinians have "no country" is a sick perversion of the facts.

Vessol
05-31-2010, 01:39 PM
Oh, well thats an easy one. Reptillians.
http://72.73.236.82/photos/lizard.gif

That looks more like Raptor Jesus, dewd.

pcosmar
05-31-2010, 01:40 PM
International waters, or Israeli waters, does the U.S. have 80 miles, or 100, or 150?

The U.N.? Oh, let's only enforce what the U.N. wants, lets help them crush Rhodesia and Israel. Showing your true colors again. Nice.

Ok, so they were in Gaza's territorial waters. Does that change anything.

or do you just believe that Israel can do whatever it wants where ever it wants?

Oh,by the way, Israel cries to the UN when it suits their purpose, Why shouldn't their victims?

MelissaWV
05-31-2010, 01:41 PM
The U.S. claims a hundred miles or so as I recall... while some countries only recognize 50, or 80 miles...

This ship was attempting to breach a blockade, and those on board were apprised that they needed to go into port and be cleared through customs previously...

At least try to maintain a veneer of neutrality.

I'm aware they were told they needed to go to port. I'm aware their response was basically "Nah. We're going to Gaza." I'm aware that they WOULD HAVE BEEN in Israeli waters eventually, and that they would have at some point encountered a physical blockade if the Israelis had decided to erect one.

I am also quite aware that Israel knew these people were coming. I am acutely aware that they could have put up a physical block preventing the ships from getting to Gaza. I am absolutely aware that Israel possesses all manner of things that could have stopped the boat dead in its tracks without killing anyone. I am keenly aware that they had time to plan for contingencies such as this, and instead went with lethal force. I am positively aware that this seems like a cry for attention from both sides, which is what makes it most dangerous.

However, what I was pointing out to you and anyone who'd like to read it, is that the intentions will not matter. People are chomping at the bit to choose sides over this. If it happened in international waters, it will be a much, much, much, much, MUCH bigger deal globally than if it simply happened in Israeli waters. The latter implies sanctions, "condemnation" by groups (you know, harsh words, maybe not being invited to a few dinner parties), and a lot of Arab television pleas to stop the evil Israelis. The former could attract military intervention.

Pinpointing where it happened doesn't make one side more or less right than it already is, but it will dictate the response of the world.

At least try to maintain a veneer of courtesy and reading comprehension skill :)

Hiki
05-31-2010, 01:43 PM
Taking control of a vessel in international waters is an act of Piracy or of War.

They could have simply put a cruiser in front of them and Blocked their travel.

This was not necessary.

The United Nations considers the siege of Gaza to be illegal.

http://www.icrc.org/IHL.nsf/52d68d14de6160e0c12563da005fdb1b/7694fe2016f347e1c125641f002d49ce?OpenDocument


67. Merchant vessels flying the flag of neutral States may not be attacked unless they:

(a) are believed on reasonable grounds to be carrying contraband or breaching a blockade, and after prior warning they intentionally and clearly refuse to stop, or intentionally and clearly resist visit, search or capture;

John Taylor
05-31-2010, 01:43 PM
Where does Israel think they control the coast of Gaza as "Israeli" territory??


the fact that you try to inject "neutrality" is laughable. Most of us have clear sides and hopefully that is based on some concrete reasoning.

The fact that you try to insinuate that the Palestinians have "no country" is a sick perversion of the facts.

Palestinians don't have a country, and they've NEVER HAD a country... that's no "sick perversion", that's the facts.

specsaregood
05-31-2010, 01:44 PM
or do you just believe that Israel can do whatever it wants where ever it wants?

I think history has demonstrated quite clearly that they can and will, yes?

DAFTEK
05-31-2010, 01:44 PM
You're a sick man, and you need to get off this forum.

Google "non-interventionism" and stop advocating genocide.

I think you should practice your own advise.....

devil21
05-31-2010, 01:44 PM
One thing that gets lost in this whole clusterfuck is that Hamas was democratically elected by the people of Gaza. Now, Israel claims Hamas "violently" seized control of Gaza and uses that as the justification for the blockade and overall concentration camp existence of Gaza.

Depressed Liberator
05-31-2010, 01:46 PM
I don't feel like reading the whole topic, but is John Taylor an Isreal firster?

pcosmar
05-31-2010, 01:46 PM
At least try to maintain a veneer of courtesy and reading comprehension skill :)
:D
Perhaps you are asking a bit much.

John Taylor
05-31-2010, 01:47 PM
One thing that gets lost in this whole clusterfuck is that Hamas was democratically elected by the people of Gaza. Now, Israel claims Hamas "violently" seized control of Gaza and uses that as the justification for the blockade and overall concentration camp existence of Gaza.

So because a government receives the support of a majority of voters, it is legitiment? What if it actively is supporting the murder of innocent civilians? What if it is funding suicide bombers, what if it is funding murderers? What if it is not protecting the lives, liberties, and property of the citizenry?

devil21
05-31-2010, 01:47 PM
http://www.icrc.org/IHL.nsf/52d68d14de6160e0c12563da005fdb1b/7694fe2016f347e1c125641f002d49ce?OpenDocument

You forgot this part: (actually you expected no one would actually read the link, right?)



SECTION III : ENEMY VESSELS AND AIRCRAFT EXEMPT FROM ATTACK

Classes of vessels exempt from attack

47. The following classes of enemy vessels are exempt from attack:

(a) hospital ships;
(b) small craft used for coastal rescue operations and other medical transports;
(c) vessels granted safe conduct by agreement between the belligerent parties including:
(i) cartel vessels, e.g., vessels designated for and engaged in the transport of prisoners of war;
(ii) vessels engaged in humanitarian missions, including vessels carrying supplies indispensable to the survival of the civilian population, and vessels engaged in relief actions and rescue operations;
(d) vessels engaged in transporting cultural property under special protection;
(e) passenger vessels when engaged only in carrying civilian passengers;
(f) vessels charged with religious, non-military scientifc or philanthropic missions, vessels collecting scientific data of likely military applications are not protected;
(g) small coastal fishing vessels and small boats engaged in local coastal trade, but they are subject to the regulations of a belligerent naval commander operating in the area and to inspection;
(h) vessels designated or adapted exclusively for responding to pollution incidents in the marine environment;
(i) vessels which have surrendered;
(j) life rafts and life boats.

John Taylor
05-31-2010, 01:48 PM
You forgot this part: (actually you expected no one would actually read the link, right?)

Humanitarian needs to be defined in the context of aiding Hamas, and secondly, we're going to need some shred of evidence that this ship was "attacked".

pcosmar
05-31-2010, 01:48 PM
So because a government receives the support of a majority of voters, it is legitiment? What if it actively is supporting the murder of innocent civilians? What if it is funding suicide bombers, what if it is funding murderers? What if it is not protecting the lives, liberties, and property of the citizenry?

You are describing the Government of Israel. ;)

devil21
05-31-2010, 01:49 PM
So because a government receives the support of a majority of voters, it is legitiment? What if it actively is supporting the murder of innocent civilians? What if it is funding suicide bombers, what if it is funding murderers? What if it is not protecting the lives, liberties, and property of the citizenry?

Yet the US gov't calls Israel the "beacon of democracy" and that's why they're an "ally". Seems we have the habit of claiming to support democracy while actually working to overthrow it, particularly in the middle east region. Ask Iran about it too.

John Taylor
05-31-2010, 01:50 PM
I don't feel like reading the whole topic, but is John Taylor an Isreal firster?

No, I'm a non-interventionist. I just happen to think that those of us concerned with the revival of individual liberty and constitutional government shouldn't be traveling abroad, even in our message boards, interfering in the domestic police matters of other sovereign countries, including Israel.

Imaginos
05-31-2010, 01:50 PM
at most, only 5% of jews will condemn this murderous act.....
silence = complicity
I disagree.
There are MANY good Jews who put American interest ahead of Israeli interest.
Even in this post, Yum Yum is a Jew.
There are bad people in Jewish community but the same goes for all the different ethnic groups.
Criticizing Israeli administration is valid topic because they have been undermine American interest.
However, jumping from criticizing Israeli administration to criticizing an entire population does not make sense.

John Taylor
05-31-2010, 01:51 PM
Yet the US gov't calls Israel the "beacon of democracy" and that's why they're an "ally". Seems we have the habit of claiming to support democracy while actually working to overthrow it, particularly in the middle east region. Ask Iran about it too.

This conversation isn't about U.S. interventions in the Middle East, in Iran or any other country, this is about Israel excercising sovereignty over Israeli territory by mandating that all shipping go through customs.

specsaregood
05-31-2010, 01:51 PM
So because a government receives the support of a majority of voters, it is legitiment? What if it actively is supporting the murder of innocent civilians? What if it is funding suicide bombers, what if it is funding murderers? What if it is not protecting the lives, liberties, and property of the citizenry?
If the answers to the questions you asked is: No. Then the US government is illegitiment as well. Just saying.... What makes a government legitiment is force and the ability to hold land and impose its will on its "citizens". Clearly Hamas has been able to do that, thus they are legit.

DAFTEK
05-31-2010, 01:51 PM
You are describing the Government of Israel. ;)

lol....My thoughts exactly.. :)

devil21
05-31-2010, 01:52 PM
Humanitarian needs to be defined in the context of aiding Hamas, and secondly, we're going to need some shred of evidence that this ship was "attacked".

Please point out where Hamas is excluded in that LAW.

That sounds like something Bill Clinton would say. "It depends on what the definition of is is."

John Taylor
05-31-2010, 01:53 PM
If the answers to the questions you asked is: No. Then the US government is illegitiment as well. Just saying.... What makes a government legitiment is force and the ability to hold land and impose its will on its "citizens". Clearly Hamas has been able to do that, thus they are legit.

I disagree with you, I believe that legitimacy belongs to a government, whatever its composition, if and only if it protects the lives, liberties and the property of the citizenry.

John Taylor
05-31-2010, 01:56 PM
Please point out where Hamas is excluded in that LAW.

That sounds like something Bill Clinton would say. "It depends on what the definition of is is."

Since when are sovereign nations controlled by extra-national international law?

Strange bedfellows today huh??

Hamas is a terrorist organization by virtually any measure, they advocate the murder of millions of people based solely on the fact that they happen to live somewhere and happen to reject Islam... Hamas actively supports murdering women and children in cold blood, and advocate the use of terrorism as a policy tool.

specsaregood
05-31-2010, 01:56 PM
I disagree with you, I believe that legitimacy belongs to a government, whatever its composition, if and only if it protects the lives, liberties and the property of the citizenry.

I don't think that is legitimacy, but rather you attempting to include your ideology into the interpretation. Using your definition, I think one would be hard pressed to find a legitimate government in the world. Of course, maybe you are deep-down an anarchist. :)

Depressed Liberator
05-31-2010, 01:56 PM
I think that we should give Israel all its sovereignty when we stop running the nation. I mean, we practically are with the aid we give them. How about we stop doing it for even a week and see how they survive?

Vessol
05-31-2010, 01:56 PM
I disagree with you, I believe that legitimacy belongs to a government, whatever its composition, if and only if it protects the lives, liberties and the property of the citizenry.

And Hamas doesn't do that in Gaza?

By your definition, they are a legitimate government.

Thus, Israel is threatening the sovereignty of Gaza.

fj45lvr
05-31-2010, 01:57 PM
No, I'm a non-interventionist. I just happen to think that those of us concerned with the revival of individual liberty and constitutional government shouldn't be traveling abroad, even in our message boards, interfering in the domestic police matters of other sovereign countries, including Israel.


You would have detested Thomas Jefferson.

Funny how people can live somewhere for hundreds of years and have their great great great great great great great great grandparents buried there and yet the land of their graves is not "their country"..

You would have done well in exterminating the American Indians if you were only born a earlier in time.

devil21
05-31-2010, 01:58 PM
I disagree with you, I believe that legitimacy belongs to a government, whatever its composition, if and only if it protects the lives, liberties and the property of the citizenry.

Interesting concept there. Hamas "governs" over a giant concentration camp, where the flow of supplies is tightly controlled by Israel, yet Hamas isn't protecting the life, liberty and prosperity of Gazans. That's some serious backward logic. I've been saying for a long time that the ONLY way to calm this whole situation down is for Israel to stop the land, air and sea blockades of Gaza. No one will ever want to "play nice" while they are starving and have no clean water to drink. The lack of such supplies is NOT the fault of Hamas (again, democratically elected) but rather Israel, which prevents such supplies from entering entirely.

John Taylor
05-31-2010, 01:58 PM
And Hamas doesn't do that in Gaza?

By your definition, they are a legitimate government.

No, actually Hamas goes around killing Fatah members in Gaza, and imposes their own brand of Islamic law on the populace.

devil21
05-31-2010, 02:00 PM
No, actually Hamas goes around killing Fatah members in Gaza, and imposes their own brand of Islamic law on the populace.

Another note that shouldn't be forgotten. Israel itself created Hamas to counter Arafat's PLO.

Imaginos
05-31-2010, 02:00 PM
I think that we should give Israel all its sovereignty when we stop running the nation. I mean, we practically are with the aid we give them. How about we stop doing it for even a week and see how they survive?
Not just a week, but we have to cut off all the aid to Israel AND Muslims and withdraw from the Middle East altogether, FOREVER.
No more interventionism! Let's just mind our own business!
WE ARE BROKE!

Vessol
05-31-2010, 02:00 PM
No, actually Hamas goes around killing Fatah members in Gaza, and imposes their own brand of Islamic law on the populace.

Alright then. How does Israel

"if and only if it protects the lives, liberties and the property of the citizenry."

By continuing this aggression, they are threatening what they claim to protect. So how is Israeli's government legitimate?

John Taylor
05-31-2010, 02:01 PM
You would have detested Thomas Jefferson.

Funny how people can live somewhere for hundreds of years and have their great great great great great great great great grandparents buried there and yet the land of their graves is not "their country"..

You would have done well in exterminating the American Indians if you were only born a earlier in time.

Nonsense, I happen to love Thomas Jefferson, even though he was very compromising in his political principles. I much prefer John Taylor of Caroline.

So you are saying that you think the "palestinians" have a right to that land, while the jewish Israelis do not... even though the Israelis can show decent from a much older property-right?

John Taylor
05-31-2010, 02:01 PM
Alright then. How does Israel

"if and only if it protects the lives, liberties and the property of the citizenry."

By continuing this aggression, they are threatening what they claim to protect. So how is Israeli's government legitimate?

The "palestinians" are not citizens of Israel. It's very straightforward.

John Taylor
05-31-2010, 02:02 PM
not just a week, but we have to cut off all the aid to israel and muslims and withdraw from the middle east altogether, forever.
no more interventionism! Let's just mind our own business!

+1776.

Vessol
05-31-2010, 02:03 PM
The "palestinians" are not citizens of Israel. It's very straightforward.

I'm not talking about the Palestinians.

I'm talking about the Israeli's, the very rights you say a government must protect in order to be legitimate "liberty, property and lives" are threatened because of the government of Israel belligerence.

Also. Not all Israeli's are Jews, there are a good number of Israeli-Arabs.

Infact, there was a good number of Israeli-Arabs, Israeli citizens, on board that flotilla. Why did they not have a right to go through the blockade, even if they are Israeli civilians? WHy were they not allowed to travel into, what you define, as their own nation?
?

BlackTerrel
05-31-2010, 02:06 PM
There are millions starving in North Korea as well. But I wonder what the reaction on this board would be if Americans and Europeans tried to land boats in North Korea. My guess is very different - why?


I don't feel like reading the whole topic, but is John Taylor an Isreal firster?

LOL at the slurs. People can have different opinions on topics without being an "Isreal firster". I don't even know what that means.

Agorism
05-31-2010, 02:08 PM
Oppose these governments right to use force and the monopoly of the use of force.

It's all very straightforward.

lester1/2jr
05-31-2010, 02:08 PM
john taylor

"we're going to need some shred of evidence that this ship was "attacked".

no they died of old age out there on the flotilla. holy crap

Vessol
05-31-2010, 02:09 PM
There are millions starving in North Korea as well. But I wonder what the reaction on this board would be if Americans and Europeans tried to land boats in North Korea. My guess is very different - why?

I'd disagree with the intervention if either the U.S or European nations did it under their national identity.

However I would support them immensely if they were volunteers and aid workers whom were just trying to bring food and medicine in.

North Korea is another nation supported by aid entirely, namely from China.

TheFlashlight.org
05-31-2010, 02:10 PM
John Taylor, don't call me a Nazi to deny that you are a Christian Zionist simpleton who enjoys killing children for Christ. Someday, Zeus will be back and will strike down the infernal **** Jesus with lightning bolts from Mt Olympus. In the meantime, I'd rather be banned than engage in an intellectual clusterfuck where people argue rationally to defend their impulsive, subconscious, irrational biases.

Mark my words, asshole Christians, fucking Jews, and dumb fucking Muslims will destroy the human species. Perhaps rational atheist humans of all backgrounds can colonize Mars by then.

Vessol
05-31-2010, 02:11 PM
John Taylor, don't call me a Nazi to deny that you are a Christian Zionist simpleton who enjoys killing children for Christ. Someday, Zeus will be back and will strike down the infernal **** Jesus with lightning bolts from Mt Olympus.

You're trying too hard.

John Taylor
05-31-2010, 02:11 PM
I'm not talking about the Palestinians.

I'm talking about the Israeli's, the very rights you say a government must protect in order to be legitimate "liberty, property and lives" are threatened because of the government of Israel belligerence.

Also. Not all Israeli's are Jews, there are a good number of Israeli-Arabs.

Infact, there was a good number of Israeli-Arabs, Israeli citizens, on board that flotilla. Why did they not have a right to go through the blockade, even if they are Israeli civilians? WHy were they not allowed to travel into, what you define, as their own nation.

You really don't have a leg to stand on here... but as you wish.

The Israeli government exists to defend the lives, liberties and property of Israeli citizens. Palestinians wish to kill the Israelis, deprive the survivors of liberty by deporting or murdering them, and confiscate their property...

There are a number of Israeli Arabs, that is true, I have never denied that.

Israeli citizens have no right to ignore Israeli law when entering the country, any more than a foreign national does.

John Taylor
05-31-2010, 02:13 PM
john taylor

"we're going to need some shred of evidence that this ship was "attacked".

no they died of old age out there on the flotilla. holy crap

The ship was attempting to illegally enter Gaza, the Israelis offered to allow the humanitarian cargo through, after it had been inspected to ensure that there was no contraband, but the "activists" decided that they wanted confrontation, not to render actual assistance to the people of Gaza.

Vessol
05-31-2010, 02:13 PM
You really don't have a leg to stand on here... but as you wish.

The Israeli government exists to defend the lives, liberties and property of Israeli citizens. Palestinians wish to kill the Israelis, deprive the survivors of liberty by deporting or murdering them, and confiscate their property...

There are a number of Israeli Arabs, that is true, I have never denied that.

Israeli citizens have no right to ignore Israeli law when entering the country, any more than a foreign national does.

So. Lets say that the organizers of this event decided to scrape the current idea entirely and instead give all the ships to Israeli-Arabs and load them with food and medicine. Then this same situation happens and Israel kills it's own citizens whom are trying to bring food and medicine to, non-citizens whom are living in a concration camp within their own nation.

What would your thoughts be? I'm just probing you here is all.

TheFlashlight.org
05-31-2010, 02:13 PM
You're trying too hard.

Fuck off wanna be Nazi German intellectual.

YumYum
05-31-2010, 02:14 PM
Wow, perhaps you should read into the evangelical motivations of Israeli defenders, who are trying to defend prophecy to bring back their made up cult leader Jesus. Then you could read the AntiChrist by Nietzsche and perhaps some history of religion to understand my post and resond with something other than mouth agape drool.

I have to agree with you about evangelical's motivations. I don't think they really love Jews, but use us as actors in their little play. What concerns me most, is what if one of their nut-job leaders decides that the Jews aren't G-d's chosen people after all?

Overnight, there could be millions of attacks on innocent Jews.

John Taylor
05-31-2010, 02:14 PM
John Taylor, don't call me a Nazi to deny that you are a Christian Zionist simpleton who enjoys killing children for Christ. Someday, Zeus will be back and will strike down the infernal **** Jesus with lightning bolts from Mt Olympus. In the meantime, I'd rather be banned than engage in an intellectual clusterfuck where people argue rationally to defend their impulsive, subconscious, irrational biases.

Mark my words, asshole Christians, fucking Jews, and dumb fucking Muslims will destroy the human species. Perhaps rational atheist humans of all backgrounds can colonize Mars by then.

Every knee will bow, and every tongue confess, that Christ is Lord. I'll pray for you to find internal peace and calm.

Vessol
05-31-2010, 02:16 PM
The ship was attempting to illegally enter Gaza, the Israelis offered to allow the humanitarian cargo through, after it had been inspected to ensure that there was no contraband, but the "activists" decided that they wanted confrontation, not to render actual assistance to the people of Gaza.

Do you believe that they would have just let it all through after they "inspected it"?

That isn't their strategy, just an FYI. They are starving them out, that is the reason for the blockade. Modern sieges ftw.

TheFlashlight.org
05-31-2010, 02:17 PM
Every knee will bow, and every tongue confess, that Christ is Lord. I'll pray for you to find internal peace and calm.

Puke.

John Taylor
05-31-2010, 02:17 PM
So. Lets say that the organizers of this event decided to scrape the current idea entirely and instead give all the ships to Israeli-Arabs and load them with food and medicine. Then this same situation happens and Israel kills it's own citizens whom are trying to bring food and medicine to, non-citizens whom are living in a concration camp within their own nation.

What would your thoughts be? I'm just probing you here is all.

It doesn't matter who was on the ship, it could have been Nelson Mandela that old communist himself... the fact is, no one can take a ship, and avoiding customs, enter a country, without breaching the sovereignty of that country. Israel offered to let the medicine and humanitarian supplies in, but only said that they would need to be inspected... (and yes, I know you'll think that means floridating the bottled water)...

John Taylor
05-31-2010, 02:18 PM
Do you believe that they would have just let it all through after they "inspected it"?

That isn't their strategy, just an FYI. They are starving them out, that is the reason for the blockade. Modern sieges ftw.

Sure, they've let in 5 previous shippments of supplies...

Vessol
05-31-2010, 02:19 PM
It doesn't matter who was on the ship, it could have been Nelson Mandela that old communist himself... the fact is, no one can take a ship, and avoiding customs, enter a country, without breaching the sovereignty of that country. Israel offered to let the medicine and humanitarian supplies in, but only said that they would need to be inspected... (and yes, I know you'll think that means floridating the bottled water)...

So. I live in Eastern NC. I have a friend who lives in the Outer Banks. By your definition, I can't jump on a boat that I own and bring him his groceries that I bought for him to save him time once.

Also, I am a citizen of the United States.

John Taylor
05-31-2010, 02:20 PM
Puke.

You need to get over your visceral hatred of Christians. It is Christians, through western civilization, who emphasized the need to respect individual rights... not some pantheistic array of dieties you bow to.

pcosmar
05-31-2010, 02:20 PM
Every knee will bow, and every tongue confess, that Christ is Lord. I'll pray for you to find internal peace and calm.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3184/2538937394_320f18ac00.jpg

And Israel will answer to the same.
They are inviting judgment on themselves.

As are we if we continue to support the Corrupt Secular Government of Israel.