Memorial Day: Is Military Service Still Honorable?

[clb09]

We all agree that individual airmen, soldiers and sailors are serving honorably all over the world.

But given our government's role as facilitators to globalist schemes and protecting dictators and despots against their own citizen's desire for freedom are our military men and women just pawns?

Would you want your children or grandchildren to join the service with Barry Hussein Obama as their leader?

http://fromtheleft.files.wordpress.com/2009/11/bushkissingsaudiprince.jpghttp://26.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_kv5ydx0Hri1qarumno1_500.jpg
http://jaredinnakano.files.wordpress.com/2009/11/obama_bow_emperor_japan.jpg

[AmericaFyeah92]

I can understand the outage over the top two pictures, but why the one with Obama bowing?

Bowing is to the Japanese what shaking hands is to Americans. Not bowing to the friggin' EMPEROR of the place would be an insult grave enough to get Barry assassinated by a katana-wielding Samurai-wannabe.

[MelissaWV]

I can understand the outage over the top two pictures, but why the one with Obama bowing?

Bowing is to the Japanese what shaking hands is to Americans. Not bowing to the friggin' EMPEROR of the place would be an insult grave enough to get Barry assassinated by a katana-wielding Samurai-wannabe.

The outrage was always at how low Obama is bowing, a gesture of submission. There's a lot more nuance to a bow than that, but it seems to be the problem people have with it.

[Fredom101]

We all agree that individual airmen, soldiers and sailors are serving honorably all over the world.

Hogwash. We do not all agree that murder is okay as long as it's done in a uniform with a flag.


But given our government's role as facilitators to globalist schemes and protecting dictators and despots against their own citizen's desire for freedom are our military men and women just pawns?

They are pawns indeed, but they are also killers themselves. The whole military system is a sea of immorality and sickness.


Would you want your children or grandchildren to join the service with Barry Hussein Obama as their leader?


No, but nor would I want them joining the service with McCain as their leader, or even Ron Paul as their leader. Killing is simply wrong, and war is not an answer.

[angelatc]

I can understand the outage over the top two pictures, but why the one with Obama bowing?

Bowing is to the Japanese what shaking hands is to Americans. Not bowing to the friggin' EMPEROR of the place would be an insult grave enough to get Barry assassinated by a katana-wielding Samurai-wannabe.

It seems that you're as smart as Obama, because you're absolutely wrong about that.

Do you see the Emperor bowing in return? No? That's because the Japanese don't bow to their inferiors, and the Emperor bows to nobody. Any bow to the Emperor is a gesture of subservience.

In fact, perfect etiquette-wise, Americans should not bow to anybody. None of them. Like you said, we shake hands.

Got any etiquette questions? I'm here for you.

[virgil47]

Hogwash. We do not all agree that murder is okay as long as it's done in a uniform with a flag.



They are pawns indeed, but they are also killers themselves. The whole military system is a sea of immorality and sickness.



No, but nor would I want them joining the service with McCain as their leader, or even Ron Paul as their leader. Killing is simply wrong, and war is not an answer.

Are you saying submission is the answer?

[Fredom101]

Are you saying submission is the answer?

Submission to what?

Submission to minding your own business and not killing people?

[TroySmith]

No, but nor would I want them joining the service with McCain as their leader, or even Ron Paul as their leader. Killing is simply wrong, and war is not an answer.


Violence used in self-defense is not ethically wrong.

[heavenlyboy34]

Letter to a Christian Young Man Regarding Joining the Military (http://www.lewrockwell.com/vance/vance163.html)
The following letter was sent to a Christian young man I know who was considering joining the military. He hasn’t joined as of yet, and I hope and pray that he doesn’t. I am posting this letter publicly in the hope that it might persuade some Christian young men I don’t know from joining the military.

Dear ______:

I have been told that you are thinking about joining the military. I hope I am misinformed. I understand that you are having trouble finding a job, but think that, as a Christian young man, you are making a big mistake if you join today’s military.

First of all, you were raised in a Christian home and went to Christian schools your whole life. You will be needlessly exposed to much wickedness in the military. You will unnecessarily face temptations that you have never been exposed to. Why put yourself in this position? It is a fact that there is a network of brothels around the world to service U.S. troops stationed overseas. I know that you are a clean young man and have a girlfriend, but don’t deceive yourself into thinking that you can remain clean in the military. Because I write on war and military issues, I have scores of veterans, Christian and otherwise, who have written me that will back up everything I am saying.

Second, it is one thing to join the military out of a sense of patriotism, but how does joining the military for financial reasons make you any different than a mercenary? I know that sounds harsh, but would you consider joining the military if you had a good job right now?

Third, the senseless wars in Iraq and Afghanistan have no end in sight. There is no guarantee that you will not be sent to Iraq, Afghanistan, or some other God-forsaken place where you could be in danger of losing life or limb. And for what?

Fourth, you can’t trust military recruiters. Like a car salesman, they are trying to make their monthly quota. They have been caught on tape lying to young men, even telling them that no troops were being sent to Iraq anymore.

Fifth, I know that you have a very low opinion of the new president, Barack Obama. I share your opinion completely. As a member of the military, Obama would be your commander in chief. You could be sent anywhere to fight for Obama. Are you willing to fight and possibly die because Obama thinks it necessary to send American troops into some other war?

Sixth, in the military, you will be expected to blindly follow the orders of your officers. Independent thought is not tolerated. Please consider the words of U.S. Marine Corps Major General Smedley Butler (1881–1940), a two-time Congressional Medal of Honor winner: "Like all the members of the military profession, I never had a thought of my own until I left the service. My mental faculties remained in suspended animation while I obeyed the orders of higher-ups. This is typical with everyone in the military service." Major General Butler became disillusioned with military service and wrote a famous book called War Is a Racket in which he said: "War is a racket. It always has been. It is possibly the oldest, easily the most profitable, surely the most vicious. It is the only one international in scope. It is the only one in which the profits are reckoned in dollars and the losses in lives."

Seventh, the purpose of the U.S. military is to defend America. But not only is the military not being used in defense of the country, it is being used to guard the borders, patrol the coasts, and defend the shores of other countries. The purpose of the military has been perverted by the interventionist foreign policy of the United States. There are American troops stationed in 147 countries and 10 territories. I know this for a fact because I have researched this in official Department of Defense documents and written about it on many occasions. The current use of the military is contrary to the American Founding Fathers’ policy of nonintervention in the affairs of other countries.

Eighth, joining the military may have an adverse effect on your future family. I know that you have a girlfriend that you are very serious about. You should know that the breakup of marriages and relationships because of soldiers being deployed to Iraq and elsewhere is epidemic. Multiple duty tours and increased deployment terms are the death knell for stable families. What makes you think that the military will never send you away from your family for an extended period of time? You know that the possibility exists, so why gamble with your family? And then, as if being away from your family wasn’t bad enough on you and them, some soldiers come home with such physical and/or mental problems that they are unable to return to civilian life. Debt, doctors, and divorce lawyers soon consume their finances.

Ninth, joining the military means that you may be put into a position where you will have to kill or be killed. What guarantee do you have that you will be in a non-combat role? Can you in good conscience pull the trigger against any "enemy" that the U.S. government sends you thousands of miles away to kill?

And finally, you would have problems even if you went into the military as a chaplain. Taxpayer-supported chaplains have to serve two masters: God and the state. Compromise is inevitable. He that pays the piper calls the tune. To become a chaplain in the U.S. military, one must obtain an ecclesiastical endorsement from an organization approved by the Pentagon as an Endorsing Ecclesiastical Organization. According to the chaplain requirements, one of the things that the endorsement should certify is that a military chaplain should be "sensitive to religious pluralism and able to provide for the free exercise of religion by all military personnel, their family members and civilians who work for the Army." I know that you are a conservative Christian and are averse to compromising your religious convictions. You will, however, be expected to do just that. As a chaplain, you would be expected to ask God to bless the actions of U.S. troops even if they were fighting in an unjust war. Can you in good conscience do this?

Please remember that if you join the military, there is no getting out until your enlistment period is up. I hope and pray that you don’t make the mistake of joining.

In Christ Jesus our Savior,

Laurence Vance

[virgil47]

Letter to a Christian Young Man Regarding Joining the Military (http://www.lewrockwell.com/vance/vance163.html)
The following letter was sent to a Christian young man I know who was considering joining the military. He hasn’t joined as of yet, and I hope and pray that he doesn’t. I am posting this letter publicly in the hope that it might persuade some Christian young men I don’t know from joining the military.

Dear ______:

I have been told that you are thinking about joining the military. I hope I am misinformed. I understand that you are having trouble finding a job, but think that, as a Christian young man, you are making a big mistake if you join today’s military.

First of all, you were raised in a Christian home and went to Christian schools your whole life. You will be needlessly exposed to much wickedness in the military. You will unnecessarily face temptations that you have never been exposed to. Why put yourself in this position? It is a fact that there is a network of brothels around the world to service U.S. troops stationed overseas. I know that you are a clean young man and have a girlfriend, but don’t deceive yourself into thinking that you can remain clean in the military. Because I write on war and military issues, I have scores of veterans, Christian and otherwise, who have written me that will back up everything I am saying.

Second, it is one thing to join the military out of a sense of patriotism, but how does joining the military for financial reasons make you any different than a mercenary? I know that sounds harsh, but would you consider joining the military if you had a good job right now?

Third, the senseless wars in Iraq and Afghanistan have no end in sight. There is no guarantee that you will not be sent to Iraq, Afghanistan, or some other God-forsaken place where you could be in danger of losing life or limb. And for what?

Fourth, you can’t trust military recruiters. Like a car salesman, they are trying to make their monthly quota. They have been caught on tape lying to young men, even telling them that no troops were being sent to Iraq anymore.

Fifth, I know that you have a very low opinion of the new president, Barack Obama. I share your opinion completely. As a member of the military, Obama would be your commander in chief. You could be sent anywhere to fight for Obama. Are you willing to fight and possibly die because Obama thinks it necessary to send American troops into some other war?

Sixth, in the military, you will be expected to blindly follow the orders of your officers. Independent thought is not tolerated. Please consider the words of U.S. Marine Corps Major General Smedley Butler (1881–1940), a two-time Congressional Medal of Honor winner: "Like all the members of the military profession, I never had a thought of my own until I left the service. My mental faculties remained in suspended animation while I obeyed the orders of higher-ups. This is typical with everyone in the military service." Major General Butler became disillusioned with military service and wrote a famous book called War Is a Racket in which he said: "War is a racket. It always has been. It is possibly the oldest, easily the most profitable, surely the most vicious. It is the only one international in scope. It is the only one in which the profits are reckoned in dollars and the losses in lives."

Seventh, the purpose of the U.S. military is to defend America. But not only is the military not being used in defense of the country, it is being used to guard the borders, patrol the coasts, and defend the shores of other countries. The purpose of the military has been perverted by the interventionist foreign policy of the United States. There are American troops stationed in 147 countries and 10 territories. I know this for a fact because I have researched this in official Department of Defense documents and written about it on many occasions. The current use of the military is contrary to the American Founding Fathers’ policy of nonintervention in the affairs of other countries.

Eighth, joining the military may have an adverse effect on your future family. I know that you have a girlfriend that you are very serious about. You should know that the breakup of marriages and relationships because of soldiers being deployed to Iraq and elsewhere is epidemic. Multiple duty tours and increased deployment terms are the death knell for stable families. What makes you think that the military will never send you away from your family for an extended period of time? You know that the possibility exists, so why gamble with your family? And then, as if being away from your family wasn’t bad enough on you and them, some soldiers come home with such physical and/or mental problems that they are unable to return to civilian life. Debt, doctors, and divorce lawyers soon consume their finances.

Ninth, joining the military means that you may be put into a position where you will have to kill or be killed. What guarantee do you have that you will be in a non-combat role? Can you in good conscience pull the trigger against any "enemy" that the U.S. government sends you thousands of miles away to kill?

And finally, you would have problems even if you went into the military as a chaplain. Taxpayer-supported chaplains have to serve two masters: God and the state. Compromise is inevitable. He that pays the piper calls the tune. To become a chaplain in the U.S. military, one must obtain an ecclesiastical endorsement from an organization approved by the Pentagon as an Endorsing Ecclesiastical Organization. According to the chaplain requirements, one of the things that the endorsement should certify is that a military chaplain should be "sensitive to religious pluralism and able to provide for the free exercise of religion by all military personnel, their family members and civilians who work for the Army." I know that you are a conservative Christian and are averse to compromising your religious convictions. You will, however, be expected to do just that. As a chaplain, you would be expected to ask God to bless the actions of U.S. troops even if they were fighting in an unjust war. Can you in good conscience do this?

Please remember that if you join the military, there is no getting out until your enlistment period is up. I hope and pray that you don’t make the mistake of joining.

In Christ Jesus our Savior,

Laurence Vance

What a sad and mostly misinformed diatribe. Most if not all of the points mentioned are not true and have not been for many many years.

This story makes me wonder how we would have fared in our revolutionary war if the pastors of the time had felt this way about the military. To be sure the military is not perfect and yes being in the military is a life changing experience however it is necessary in today's world.

[Justinjj1]

There is nothing honorable about being a hired killer who feeds off the taxpayers and slaughters innocent people around the world.

[virgil47]

There is nothing honorable about being a hired killer who feeds off the taxpayers and slaughters innocent people around the world.

There is also nothing honorable about being a coward and having others fight and die for you.

[jclay2]

What a sad and mostly misinformed diatribe. Most if not all of the points mentioned are not true and have not been for many many years.

This story makes me wonder how we would have fared in our revolutionary war if the pastors of the time had felt this way about the military. To be sure the military is not perfect and yes being in the military is a life changing experience however it is necessary in today's world.

Could you expound on that?

[0zzy]

There is nothing honorable about being a hired killer who feeds off the taxpayers and slaughters innocent people around the world.

Collectivist mind set ya have there! Collectivist indeed!

[heavenlyboy34]

Collectivist mind set ya have there! Collectivist indeed!

Although I don't agree with the tone of what he said, he's right. You really can't avoid being "collectivist" on this subject, as the military is Collectivist by its very nature-from the uniforms to enforced behavior patterns to hairstyles, and beyond.

[Justinjj1]

There is also nothing honorable about being a coward and having others fight and die for you.

Who has fought and died for me? :confused:

I bet you buy into the b.s that the military "protects our freedoms". lol

[heavenlyboy34]

Who has fought and died for me? :confused:

I bet you buy into the b.s that the military "protects our freedoms". lol

lolz!;)

[Jeremy]

Don't get Memorial Day confused with Veteran's Day.

[Old Ducker]

Hogwash. We do not all agree that murder is okay as long as it's done in a uniform with a flag.



They are pawns indeed, but they are also killers themselves. The whole military system is a sea of immorality and sickness.



No, but nor would I want them joining the service with McCain as their leader, or even Ron Paul as their leader. Killing is simply wrong, and war is not an answer.

War is the answer if your country is invaded by a foreign power. Not until then. There is nothing in any way honorable about today's military, although I don't advocate treating returning war vets as some Vietnam-era vets were treated. The war criminals are still relatively few in number and the rest are just victims...of propaganda, of the shitty economy and some in far worse ways than that.

[0zzy]

Although I don't agree with the tone of what he said, he's right. You really can't avoid being "collectivist" on this subject, as the military is Collectivist by its very nature-from the uniforms to enforced behavior patterns to hairstyles, and beyond.

There is nothing honorable about being a hired killer who feeds off the taxpayers and slaughters innocent people around the world.

Well, he somehow assumes everyone in the military :
1) Kills
2) "feeds off the taxpayers"
3) "slaughters" innocent people around the world

#1 and #3 are very inaccurate to my mind, as not all military people kill nor do all even see war.

#2 somehow assumes that anyone who gets taxpayer money for a job "feeds off the taxpayer" and he seems to see it as a huge negative. To my mind, there are certain jobs the government does. Providing for a military is one of them.

But under his world view, judges, cops, firemen, military, etc. just "feed off the taxpayer." I guess he is right, they are paid via taxpayer money and use it to feed themselves and their families. How is that dishonorable?

So anyone who receives taxpayer money is dishonorable?

[xd9fan]

no not the way the US wastes blood and teasure.

the soliders are not over there to protect my freedoms here......like very ron paul republican, I am having a damn hard time KEEPING WHAT LITTLE FREEDOM we have left from the likes of washingtondc.
If they where sent anywhere to protect my freedoms(if you buy that bush logic)
send them to washingtondc and take it over......sent them to the border.....:mad:

[Justinjj1]

Judges, police, firemen, teachers, etc. provide a service...although I think most of us agree that it could be done more efficiently and provide better quality in the private sector. However, the military provides absolutely no worthwhile service, and in fact much of what they do actually makes us less safe. Because of this, I believe that the military is the absolute worst part of government. They consume the largest chunk of tax revenue and provide the least worthwhile return. (Unless you consider killing innocent brown people a good return on your money)

[t0rnado]

The military is composed of parasites whose career choices were between Burger King and getting paid to go to a desert to "FIGHT DEM TERISTS" by shooting sand.

[0zzy]

Judges, police, firemen, teachers, etc. provide a service...although I think most of us agree that it could be done more efficiently and provide better quality in the private sector. However, the military provides absolutely no worthwhile service, and in fact much of what they do actually makes us less safe. Because of this, I believe that the military is the absolute worst part of government. They consume the largest chunk of tax revenue and provide the least worthwhile return. (Unless you consider killing innocent brown people a good return on your money)


The military is composed of parasites whose career choices were between Burger King and getting paid to go to a desert to "FIGHT DEM TERISTS" by shooting sand.


Wow. just wow. I can tell you've been reading LewRockwell.com. How have such self-proclaimed individualist become so collectivist when it comes to the military. It's somehow okay to insult anyone in the military, and to allude that everyone in the military are immoral racist baby killers.

go outside and talk to these people for a change, rather than bashing them.

[.Tom]

Soldiers are murderers. Without them, how else could the military industrial complex operate?

"Just following orders" doesn't work anymore.

[Justinjj1]

those brave soldiers doing what they do best, god bless 'em.
YouTube - Collateral Murder (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-byU_92NcN8)

[BlackTerrel]

There is nothing honorable about being a hired killer who feeds off the taxpayers and slaughters innocent people around the world.

Whatever dude :rolleyes:


The military is composed of parasites whose career choices were between Burger King and getting paid to go to a desert to "FIGHT DEM TERISTS" by shooting sand.

You've gotta be fucking kidding me.

[Justinjj1]

Another great article

http://www.buffalobeast.com/126/Fuck.the.troops.Ian.Murphy.html


So, 4000 rubes are dead. Cry me the Tigris. Another 30,000 have been seriously wounded. Boo fucking hoo. They got what they asked for—and cool robotic limbs, too.

Likely, just reading the above paragraph made you uncomfortable. But why?

The benevolence of America’s “troops” is sacrosanct. Questioning their rectitude simply isn’t done. It’s the forbidden zone. We may rail against this tragic war, but our soldiers are lauded by all as saints. Why? They volunteered to partake in this savage idiocy, and for this they deserve our utmost respect? I think not.

The nearly two-thirds of us who know this war is bullshit need to stop sucking off the troops. They get enough action raping female soldiers and sodomizing Iraqi detainees. The political left is intent on “supporting” the troops by bringing them home, which is a good thing. But after rightly denouncing the administration’s lies and condemning this awful war, relatively sensible pundits—like Keith Olbermann—turn around and lovingly praise the soldiers’ brave service to the country. Why?

What service are they providing? I don’t remember ordering 300,000 dead Iraqis—although I was doing a lot of heavy narcotics back in ‘03. Our soldiers are not providing a service to the country, they’re providing a service to a criminal administration and their oil company cronies. When a mafia don orders a hit, is the assassin absolved of personal responsibility when it’s carried out? Of course not. What if the hit man was fooled into service? We’d all say, “Tough shit, you dumb Guido,” then lock him up and throw away the key.

As a society, we need to discard our blind deference to military service. There’s nothing admirable about volunteering to murder people. There’s nothing admirable about being rooked by obvious propaganda. There’s nothing admirable about doing what you’re told if what you’re told to do is terrible.

We all learned recently that the Bush administration instituted its policy of global torture during quaint White House meetings. And we already know this war was started with lies. Shame on them. But what about the people who physically carry out these atrocities? We’ve seen bad apples punished and CEO despots walk free, but all verbal and written denouncement is focused on our leaders. Surely, they deserve that and more—decapitation, really. But why can’t we be critical of the people who have actually tortured and murdered hundreds of thousands of Iraqi citizens? We deride private contractors like Blackwater for similar conduct—why are the troops blameless?

Take John McCain, or “McNasty,” as they called him in high school. While the conventional wisdom says that Obama gets a pass from the media, McCain is clearly the least scrutinized presidential candidate. He diddles lobbyists, sings about bombing Iran and doesn’t know Shiite from Shinola, yet he remains unscathed, cloaked in his Vietnam “hero” legend.

Again, what is heroic about involving one’s self in a foolish war, being a shitty pilot or getting tortured? Yeah, it must have sucked, but getting your ass kicked every day for five years doesn’t make you a hero—it makes you a Bad News Bear.

Here’s where America’s military lust becomes a true perversion. If we truly valued military prowess, John McCain would be viewed as a failure. But duty alone is enough to inspire our gratitude. Hence the left’s tendency to obligatorily praise the troops while decrying the sum of their actions. Good thing, too, because this war is unwinnable.

George Washington warned that the biggest threat to the young United States was in keeping and deploying standing armies. An overextended military is a drain on any nation—eventually it will break. It also pisses off the people your army is standing on. We’ll never heed this warning and break the cycle of violence, so long as military service is so reflexively praised.

People want to be respected. And in a country with an abysmal education system and disappearing economic opportunities, they seek respect wherever they can find it—as street corner toughs or as government-sanctioned thugs. It beats McDonald’s. But this kind of victim-of-circumstance-sympathy for the troops turns them into automatons, neither deserving of praise or damnation. Disregarding the Stop Loss back door draft travesty, they had a choice.

We’re a squeamish people; we eschew heated debates and, in principle, strive for political correctness when arguing with those who hold contrary views. The left does anyway; the right makes no such pretense. That’s one of the reasons liberals have taken such a beating in the last few decades.

As plainly stupid as religious belief or participating in immoral and illegal wars may be, the castrated left can only argue against these things by appealing to reason. In America, that fails every time. We respond best to partisan venom and ad hominem attacks.

The right has no problem painting their opponents as cowards or godless heathens, but liberals—instead of sticking to the merits of their arguments—fight those accusations by leaning right, praising god and guns, and pandering to the people who cling to them. The left has taken to appeasing bullies as their only course to victory. And that’s no victory at all.

Liberals need to start calling a moron a moron—and openly mocking that moron if his positions or actions are indefensible. Just as Limbaugh or Hannity insults the left, tilting the battlefield so liberals are left scrounging for their patriotic bona fides, the left must begin attacking stupidity whether in the form of religious nonsense, “free market” capitalism or military worship.

Instead of blowing the troops every chance we get, to prove our patriotism and insulate ourselves against attacks from the right, liberals should grow a pair and start dishing the damnation.

How despicable must a military campaign be before Americans turn on their beloved troops? After chiding the “War on Toddlers” as fool-headed and pointlessly barbaric, would Keith Olbermann still thank the troops for their service? After the “Great Grandmother Slaughter of 2010,” will the press remove the fat military cock from its mouth? Following “Operation Murder Fluffy Kittens,” will the left finally nix the “honored service” crap? No. No, they won’t.

Condemning the “troops”—a term coined during the Gulf War—is almost unthinkable. And it won’t win you any awards. “Troops” are a monolithic entity, a cohesive group of pride-inspiring order-takers. Whereas an individual soldier is accountable for his or her actions, the “troops” are too abstract to blame. For Americans, there are only bad apples, never bad orchards.

But what kind of world would we rather live in: one where fools are admired for being fooled and murderers are extolled for murdering, or one where we have the capacity to step back and say, “I don’t care who told you to do what and why; you’re still an asshole!” Personally, I’d rather live in a world where people who act like retards are treated like retards: executed in Texas.

Americans fear the truth. It’s the slipperiest slope of all. Once we start extending responsibility beyond those who gave orders to those who took them, it won’t be long before we’re blaming ourselves. And we can’t have that.

Well, guess what, kids? The Iraq debacle is a pointless bloodbath—and every time you applaud those who “bravely” fill that tub, you’re soaking in it.

[cindy25]

with wars looming in Iran and Korea it would be foolish for anyone to join or re-enlist, unless they view a war as career advancement

[0zzy]

And you people wonder why no one respects you.

I guarantee you that the people who were in the military that you pretend to respect (Ron Paul, Adam Kokesh) would be insulted by all these comments.

[zero]

When I'm not busy killing brown babies and wasting taxpayer dollars I like to read informative posts on RPFs!:D Do I support the wars in Iraq and Afganistan? No. Do I realize that the U.S. Military taxes up a huge portion of our budget and should be cut drastically? Of course. I don't believe in supporting large standing armies, which is one of the reasons why I'm proud to be a member of the National Guard. Not only do we provide important public services during natural disasters, I believe we are an effective enough fighting force to defend our nation if we ever found ourselves in that situation.

Don't get me wrong, I know what a lot of you are getting at. This "thrill kill" crap disgusts me just as much as it does anyone else. I don't believe we are "protecting you freedoms and way of life" or any of that Sean Hannity nonsense. What I'm saying is that not all of us are immoral idiots. Now if you'll excuse me my shift at Burger King is about to start.;)

[qh4dotcom]

For those criticizing Obama and praising the troops, you all need to know that 44% of the U.S military who went to the polls in 2008 screwed up and voted for Obama. Look at the big mess this country is in and all the anti-freedom legislation Obama has supported, voted for as senator and signed into law as president...so much for the military defending my freedoms when they are actually voting against my freedoms. The military brags so much about protecting my rights and freedom and then they stabbed me in the back by voting for one of the worst enemies of my rights and freedoms. And what do you have to say about the members of the military who will screw up again and vote for Obama again in 2012?

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/results/polls/#USP00p3

This applies to the military too
"If you vote and you elect dishonest incompetent people and they get into office and screw everything up well you're responsible for what they have done, you caused the problem, you voted them in, you have no right to complain. "
-George Carlin

[Fozz]

There is nothing honorable about being a hired killer who feeds off the taxpayers and slaughters innocent people around the world.
You are a pacifist.

[Fozz]

And you people wonder why no one respects you.

I guarantee you that the people who were in the military that you pretend to respect (Ron Paul, Adam Kokesh) would be insulted by all these comments.

I disagree. Lew Rockwell and pacifists like him bash our military, but Ron Paul and Kokesh have great respect for Rockwell.

[Fozz]

For those criticizing Obama and praising the troops, you all need to know that 44% of the U.S military who went to the polls in 2008 screwed up and voted for Obama. Look at the big mess this country is in and all the anti-freedom legislation Obama has supported, voted for as senator and signed into law as president...so much for the military defending my freedoms when they are actually voting against my freedoms. The military brags so much about protecting my rights and freedom and then they stabbed me in the back by voting for one of the worst enemies of my rights and freedoms. And what do you have to say about the members of the military who will screw up again and vote for Obama again in 2012?

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/results/polls/#USP00p3

This applies to the military too
"If you vote and you elect dishonest incompetent people and they get into office and screw everything up well you're responsible for what they have done, you caused the problem, you voted them in, you have no right to complain. "
-George Carlin
Is it any better to vote for McCain?

[Agorism]

The admins here allow Fozz to run amock (not that I don't support that), but anyone who posts something about anarchists are dangerous and may "divide the movement."

Annoys me.

[RonPaulwillWin]

Dude I would take it a step further and kiss his shoes. The Japanese are awesome!

[BlackTerrel]

For those criticizing Obama and praising the troops, you all need to know that 44% of the U.S military who went to the polls in 2008 screwed up and voted for Obama. Look at the big mess this country is in and all the anti-freedom legislation Obama has supported, voted for as senator and signed into law as president...so much for the military defending my freedoms when they are actually voting against my freedoms. The military brags so much about protecting my rights and freedom and then they stabbed me in the back by voting for one of the worst enemies of my rights and freedoms. And what do you have to say about the members of the military who will screw up again and vote for Obama again in 2012?

WTF are you on? So 44% of the military screwed you over by voting for Obama? And more than 50% of non-military screwed you over too. What is your point?

[Uriel999]

I'd be a Ron Paul supporter if it wasn't for his supporters...

Guys remember how that majority of the people in the military who donated to campaigns in the primary gave it to Ron Paul? Yeah fuck you assholes. Seriously, its becoming no wonder why Dr. Paul did so badly in the primaries...many of the people here would treat the troops like they were treated in Vietnam.

Don't blame the troops blame the people in control, blame the politicians.

[0zzy]

I'd be a Ron Paul supporter if it wasn't for his supporters...

Guys remember how that majority of the people in the military who donated to campaigns in the primary gave it to Ron Paul? Yeah fuck you assholes. Seriously, its becoming no wonder why Dr. Paul did so badly in the primaries...many of the people here would treat the troops like they were treated in Vietnam.

Don't blame the troops blame the people in control, blame the politicians.

+1776

though they'll just say "we wouldn't treat them like in Vietnam," (someone already said it) but their rhetoric says otherwise.

[cindy25]

For those criticizing Obama and praising the troops, you all need to know that 44% of the U.S military who went to the polls in 2008 screwed up and voted for Obama. Look at the big mess this country is in and all the anti-freedom legislation Obama has supported, voted for as senator and signed into law as president...so much for the military defending my freedoms when they are actually voting against my freedoms. The military brags so much about protecting my rights and freedom and then they stabbed me in the back by voting for one of the worst enemies of my rights and freedoms. And what do you have to say about the members of the military who will screw up again and vote for Obama again in 2012?

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/results/polls/#USP00p3

This applies to the military too
"If you vote and you elect dishonest incompetent people and they get into office and screw everything up well you're responsible for what they have done, you caused the problem, you voted them in, you have no right to complain. "
-George Carlin

as bad as Obama has been I still even now believe McCain would have been far worse

the voters who screwed up were the Republican voters in NH who thought McCain was anti-war

[j6p]

You know it's prime time we start taking troops to task, while we take the politictions to task also. It just annoys people, that they are fighting for our freedom over their. The troops are the ones who joined, so to earn respect, they have to earn it first. Joining the military, to get respect is no respect at all.

[qh4dotcom]

as bad as Obama has been I still even now believe McCain would have been far worse

the voters who screwed up were the Republican voters in NH who thought McCain was anti-war

Possible. but there was no reason for the military to vote for McCain or Obama. Kokesh voted 3rd party. Many members of the military did not vote.

[qh4dotcom]

WTF are you on? So 44% of the military screwed you over by voting for Obama? And more than 50% of non-military screwed you over too. What is your point?

My point is that the military brags so much about protecting my rights and freedom and then they stabbed me in the back by voting for one of the worst enemies of my rights and freedoms. The military is supposed to
be smarter than the civilians about not voting for warmongerers like McCain and Obama...after all they are the ones suffering the consequences of these
wars...but no they screwed up like the civilians last election day.

[qh4dotcom]

Bump

[Dr.3D]

Yep, just keep right on making us look bad in the eyes of the military. That's the way to gain votes in the future. After they read this kind of a thread, I'm sure they will donate even more and vote for someone who we back.

Keep up the good work!

I can't stand the idiots who keep coming up with this kind of trash and threads the like of this one.

Makes me ashamed I've even posted once on these forums.

You may not like the troops, you may hate their guts, but there is nothing you are going to do by making threads like this one but cause others to look at the people of RPF like they are trash.

If you hate the troops, it is probably best to just keep that to yourself or at least not post about your hate on a public forum.

I'm surprised this thread hasn't found it's way to the dreaded 'Hot Topics' forum where not everybody and their uncle can read this trash.

[0zzy]

Yep, just keep right on making us look bad in the eyes of the military. That's the way to gain votes in the future. After they read this kind of a thread, I'm sure they will donate even more and vote for someone who we back.

Keep up the good work!

I can't stand the idiots who keep coming up with this kind of trash and threads the like of this one.

Makes me ashamed I've even posted once on these forums.

You may not like the troops, you may hate their guts, but there is nothing you are going to do by making threads like this one but cause others to look at the people of RPF like they are trash.

If you hate the troops, it is probably best to just keep that to yourself or at least not post about your hate on a public forum.

I'm surprised this thread hasn't found it's way to the dreaded 'Hot Topics' forum where not everybody and their uncle can read this trash.

agreed.

so many idiotic claims it's impossible to tell if they are trolling or if they are just that ignorant. butttt, my money goes with them being ignorant.

[Justinjj1]

You are a pacifist.

I absolutely support violence as a means to defend ones family and property. Also if the U.S. was ever invaded (which is a preposterous idea), you will find me at the front lines. So, I'm not a pacifist.

But I am absolutely opposed (like Ron and Adam Kokesh) to the military-industrial complex, and I will not show deference to the foot soldiers who make these imperialistic wars of aggression possible.

[Fozz]

I absolutely support violence as a means to defend ones family and property. Also if the U.S. was ever invaded (which is a preposterous idea), you will find me at the front lines. So, I'm not a pacifist.

But I am absolutely opposed (like Ron and Adam Kokesh) to the military-industrial complex, and I will not show deference to the foot soldiers who make these imperialistic wars of aggression possible.

Do you believe that US intervention in WWII was justified?

[pcosmar]

Do you believe that US intervention in WWII was justified?

If the US had stayed out of WW1, they would have likely never been a WWII.

There would be no UN. So No Korean involvement either.

[MelissaWV]

Originally Posted by Fozz
Do you believe that US intervention in WWII was justified?


If the US had stayed out of WW1, they would have likely never been a WWII.

There would be no UN. So No Korean involvement either.

The conditions would also not have been ripe for a takeover of Germany and a populace who seized on anyone who could "make things better," no matter what the cost.

The US also had its hand in the cookie jar in the Pacific leading up to WWII., which is what inspired the ire of the Japanese to begin with.

Lastly, even *if* the US was involved in WWI, the way the US helped divide up the spoils at the END of it was really the biggest red flag, the thing that paved the way right straight into WWII.

All these lovely hypotheticals people throw :rolleyes: At least some of us know our history. Thank you, Pete.

[RJT]

Do you believe that US intervention in WWII was justified?

Without the US, Hitler and Stalin would have probably fought longer - instead the US helped build a massive Communist Empire, allow it take over Poland (remember them in 1939?), and dominate much of the globe. But hey, we got to incinerate a bunch of Japanese civilians to make ourselves feel better and attempt to intimidate Uncle Joe - so worth it. And, as was mentioned, if no US intervention in 1917, then there is no Versailles, and likely no Hitler in the 1930s.

Some just can't seem to grasp that interventionism leads to more interventionism - they always want to start the discussion in the middle (a convenient start place) and never the beginning.

YouTube - Universal Soldier (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohXsdbF-7jc)

Happy Memorial Day

[qh4dotcom]

I'd be a Ron Paul supporter if it wasn't for his supporters...

Guys remember how that majority of the people in the military who donated to campaigns in the primary gave it to Ron Paul? Yeah fuck you assholes. Seriously, its becoming no wonder why Dr. Paul did so badly in the primaries...many of the people here would treat the troops like they were treated in Vietnam.

Don't blame the troops blame the people in control, blame the politicians.

Blaming the government and supporting the soldiers is as ridiculous as blaming criminals and supporting their accomplices....or as ridiculous as blaming Hitler and supporting his Nazi soldiers. The accomplices and Nazis are "just following orders" too. Both soldiers and politicians are to blame for the wars. Plus soldiers also screwed up and voted for the corrupt politicians.

As far as the military donating to Ron Paul, it's kind of sad that 98% of the military who went to the polls in 2008 betrayed RP in the general election by voting for the warmongerers McCain and Obama whose wars RP opposes so much. Remember that Dr. Paul encouraged everyone to vote 3rd party. Kokesh voted 3rd party, many members of the military did not vote. No reason for the rest of them to have voted for McCain and Obama.

[helmuth_hubener]

Don't blame the troops blame the people in control, blame the politicians.

The politicians, generals, and other orchestrators of the wars are much more to blame, true. But the lowly soldiers share fault as well. Without them the war could not take place. Oh, that we might have more Christmas Truces!

Excuses can be made for all of them. Troops just follow orders. Many politicians, if you get to know them personally, are normal people who sincerely believe in the rightness and necessity of their policies.

Ultimately, anger and hate are tools of very limited usefulness. I could go rail at the ladies at the county clerk's office, the inspectors in the engineering and planning dept., etc. I could tell them how they are worthless, sleazy parasites whose worthless parasite children I'm sick of feeding. I could tell them to get out of the state and go somewhere they'd feel more at home, like New Jersey, or Russia. The truth is, I actually have said all of this and more to their faces, and that is why I now cannot go visit my slimy bureaucrat friends in Engineering without a police escort!

You can go around glaring at and hurling barbs at every soldier, prison guard, clerk, and functionary you meet, and you will be absolutely justified in doing so, because they are participating in a grossly immoral system. They are parasites! They are evil! But is this hate and anger working as an effective tool to help you achieve your ends in life?

Ultimately, anger and hate are tools of very limited usefulness. Let's put the LOVE back into Revolution.

[virgil47]

If the US had stayed out of WW1, they would have likely never been a WWII.

There would be no UN. So No Korean involvement either.

If the U.S. had stayed out of WWI most of Europe would be speaking German now. It is true that we would have no U.N. but we would have The League of Nations which was worse. Also you are correct about no Korean involvement. The entire Korean peninsula would be ruled by North Korea and China.

[virgil47]

I absolutely support violence as a means to defend ones family and property. Also if the U.S. was ever invaded (which is a preposterous idea), you will find me at the front lines. So, I'm not a pacifist.

But I am absolutely opposed (like Ron and Adam Kokesh) to the military-industrial complex, and I will not show deference to the foot soldiers who make these imperialistic wars of aggression possible.

The preposterous idea of the U.S. being invaded came within a whiskers breadth of happening in WWII. If you are on the front lines without the help of a professional military your stay will be short and lethal.

I for one will not show deference to the political hacks that would gladly endanger my freedom. This includes the leftist trolls that have invaded the RP forums.

[pcosmar]

If the U.S. had stayed out of WWI most of Europe would be speaking German now. It is true that we would have no U.N. but we would have The League of Nations which was worse. Also you are correct about no Korean involvement. The entire Korean peninsula would be ruled by North Korea and China.

Nope, No League of Nations. That was a result of WWI, and there is no telling how it would have ended. It was a near stalemate when we entered. Perhaps they could have come to the peace table.
But anything else is speculation.
Would China have developed Jet aircraft without Germany and the Second world war? Would Russia become a Nuclear Power?
Would the Atomic Bomb ever been invented?

[virgil47]

Nope, No League of Nations. That was a result of WWI, and there is no telling how it would have ended. It was a near stalemate when we entered. Perhaps they could have come to the peace table.
But anything else is speculation.
Would China have developed Jet aircraft without Germany and the Second world war? Would Russia become a Nuclear Power?
Would the Atomic Bomb ever been invented?

Would we be speaking and writing in English? Who knows. Not I and not you. I do stand corrected on the League of Nations although I suspect it had been in the works for some time and the war simply made it easier to promote.

[Vessol]

Would we be speaking and writing in English? Who knows. Not I and not you. I do stand corrected on the League of Nations although I suspect it had been in the works for some time and the war simply made it easier to promote.

You need to read more then just history books in high school if you think Germany could take over the world.

Also WW1 was a bloody stalemate before we entered it and it was the same bloody stalemate when we ended it with a bit lean in our favor. If we had stated neutral, nothing would have happened. Same in WW2.

[BlackTerrel]

Yep, just keep right on making us look bad in the eyes of the military. That's the way to gain votes in the future. After they read this kind of a thread, I'm sure they will donate even more and vote for someone who we back.

Keep up the good work!

I can't stand the idiots who keep coming up with this kind of trash and threads the like of this one.

Makes me ashamed I've even posted once on these forums.

You may not like the troops, you may hate their guts, but there is nothing you are going to do by making threads like this one but cause others to look at the people of RPF like they are trash.

If you hate the troops, it is probably best to just keep that to yourself or at least not post about your hate on a public forum.

I'm surprised this thread hasn't found it's way to the dreaded 'Hot Topics' forum where not everybody and their uncle can read this trash.

I agree. I disagree with it but at the very least keep it to themselves. "The Troops suck" is not a very popular message when you are trying to reach people.

I sometimes think certain people here WANT to lose. So they can keep criticizing from the outside.

[Live_Free_Or_Die]

"The Troops suck" is not a very popular message when you are trying to reach people.

The message is not "The Troops suck". The message is.... who(m) do you serve? Do you know?

[Dr.3D]

The message is not "The Troops suck". The message is.... who(m) do you serve? Do you know?

That's the message one gets from these forums. If you want to get people to go along with our way of thinking, this type of material should be avoided or at least kept where the general public can not see it.

The troops serve those in command, and those in command, serve the commander in chief... you know, that ass in the White House. If you don't like what the troops are doing, ultimately, it is the person in command that needs to be blamed.

[BlackTerrel]

The message is not "The Troops suck". The message is.... who(m) do you serve? Do you know?

That is the message I have gotten. From many posters at least. Maybe not you. But many.

I don't like it for three reasons:

1. It's short sighted and not really a fair assessment of the men and women who serve.

2. It is personally offensive to me since I have a boatload of family who serve in various capacities.

3. It is dumb politics. One of the goals of this board is to help elect Ron Paul and people like him. Threads like this, one something called "Ron Paul Forums" can't help but attach Ron to a very very unpopular message.

Given #3 at the very least people should keep it to themselves and away from something that has Ron Paul in the title.

[Pericles]

When I'm not busy killing brown babies and wasting taxpayer dollars I like to read informative posts on RPFs!:D Do I support the wars in Iraq and Afganistan? No. Do I realize that the U.S. Military taxes up a huge portion of our budget and should be cut drastically? Of course. I don't believe in supporting large standing armies, which is one of the reasons why I'm proud to be a member of the National Guard. Not only do we provide important public services during natural disasters, I believe we are an effective enough fighting force to defend our nation if we ever found ourselves in that situation.

Don't get me wrong, I know what a lot of you are getting at. This "thrill kill" crap disgusts me just as much as it does anyone else. I don't believe we are "protecting you freedoms and way of life" or any of that Sean Hannity nonsense. What I'm saying is that not all of us are immoral idiots. Now if you'll excuse me my shift at Burger King is about to start.;)

LMAO - of course, if you don't believe in borders, they don't need to be defended;)

[qh4dotcom]

The troops serve those in command, and those in command, serve the commander in chief... you know, that ass in the White House. If you don't like what the troops are doing, ultimately, it is the person in command that needs to be blamed.

Both the troops AND Obama need to be blamed.

44% of the U.S military who went to the polls in 2008 screwed up and voted for Obama. And what do you have to say about the members of the military who will screw up again and vote for Obama again in 2012?
http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/results/polls/#USP00p3

"If you vote and you elect dishonest incompetent people and they get into office and screw everything up well you're responsible for what they have done, you caused the problem, you voted them in, you have no right to complain."
-George Carlin

[Dr.3D]

Both the troops AND Obama need to be blamed.

44% of the U.S military who went to the polls in 2008 screwed up and voted for Obama. And what do you have to say about the members of the military who will screw up again and vote for Obama again in 2012?
http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/results/polls/#USP00p3

"If you vote and you elect dishonest incompetent people and they get into office and screw everything up well you're responsible for what they have done, you caused the problem, you voted them in, you have no right to complain."
-George Carlin

Great message bub. Keep it up and either Obummer or some other dork will be in the White House in 2012. At this point, I'm beginning to feel like we are fighting for a lost cause since people in these forums keep bringing unpopular crap like this thread brings up.

Like I said before, I don't give a shit what or who they voted for. It doesn't make any difference to me since that is the past. As for the future, you are absolutely correct, they probably will vote for Obama or some other two party individual since you people are doing such a great job of helping them make up their minds.

[Live_Free_Or_Die]

That is the message I have gotten. From many posters at least. Maybe not you. But many.

I don't like it for three reasons:

1. It's short sighted and not really a fair assessment of the men and women who serve.

2. It is personally offensive to me since I have a boatload of family who serve in various capacities.

3. It is dumb politics. One of the goals of this board is to help elect Ron Paul and people like him. Threads like this, one something called "Ron Paul Forums" can't help but attach Ron to a very very unpopular message.

Given #3 at the very least people should keep it to themselves and away from something that has Ron Paul in the title.

Maybe you should revisit Ron talking about patriotism on the house floor. The people associating Ron with bad ideas that are not Ron Paul's are the image police asserting dissent is something that ought to be stifled.

[Andrew-Austin]

No.

Sorry I don't want to mean or obnoxious about it, but simply no.

[Fozz]

The preposterous idea of the U.S. being invaded came within a whiskers breadth of happening in WWII. If you are on the front lines without the help of a professional military your stay will be short and lethal.

I for one will not show deference to the political hacks that would gladly endanger my freedom. This includes the leftist trolls that have invaded the RP forums.

You are more of a troll than any of who you call "leftist hacks".

And the US was never likely to be invaded at any point in the 20th century, not even in WWII.

[libertarian4321]

The military is composed of parasites whose career choices were between Burger King and getting paid to go to a desert to "FIGHT DEM TERISTS" by shooting sand.

Really?

Lets see. I had straight A's in HS. I got SAT scores so high you'd think I was bull shitting you if I told you what they were.

I got the military to pay for degrees in engineering from Rensselaer Polytech (BS Chemical Engineering) and MIT (MEng. Env. Engineering). I also got most of my MBA (Boston University) paid for by the military.

Do you really think my only options were Burger King or the military (hint: if you don't know it, those schools are pretty selective- they don't take people who's only option is "Burger King")?

People go into the military for a lot of reasons, but most of them do not choose it because "they have no other choice." A huge percentage of them do it for college money- whether that be a full-ride scholarship (service academies or ROTC) or GI Bill money. I suspect this is the largest single reason people join. Others do it out of a sense of family tradition or patriotism. Yeah, a small number do it because they can't get a decent job anywhere else, but that is a small percentage, though it rises when the economy is bad.

BTW, the average service member is more intelligent than the average American- most people, especially those who think everyone in the military is some dim wit who had no other options, don't believe that, but it's true. I'll explain why it is true if you want me to.

[libertarian4321]

The US also had its hand in the cookie jar in the Pacific leading up to WWII., which is what inspired the ire of the Japanese to begin with.



The Japanese had been waging aggressive expansionistic war long before the US did anything to them. It has become fashionable in recent years for some Americans to act like the Japanese were just peaceful bystanders who only got aggressive because we had "wronged" them. This simply is not the case.


Lastly, even *if* the US was involved in WWI, the way the US helped divide up the spoils at the END of it was really the biggest red flag, the thing that paved the way right straight into WWII.

All these lovely hypotheticals people throw :rolleyes: At least some of us know our history. Thank you, Pete.

You are aware that the USA did NOT ratify the Treaty of Versailles because it was considered too harsh? The USA signed a separate peace at a later date. Given that the USA did not ratify the Treaty of Versailles, I think it's a bit odd that you assign blame to the USA for all the ills of that agreement. The USA, of the major allies, was by far the least willing to severely punish the Central Powers, largely because the USA wanted the German and Austro-Hungarian economies to remain strong so that we could trade with them.

[libertarian4321]

As far as the military donating to Ron Paul, it's kind of sad that 98% of the military who went to the polls in 2008 betrayed RP in the general election by voting for the warmongerers McCain and Obama whose wars RP opposes so much. Remember that Dr. Paul encouraged everyone to vote 3rd party.

Oh come on, that's pretty lame.

So just because someone supported Ron Paul, they "betrayed" him because they didn't take his half-hearted suggestion to vote for some hopeless third party candidate? That's a bit of a stretch- especially given that the only third party that came close to having ballot access in most states, the Libertarian Party, ran a neocon warmongering dip shit (Bob Barr) who went out of his way to disrespect Ron Paul (and I say this as a guy who has spent much of my life as a Libertarian).

[Baptist]

What a sad and mostly misinformed diatribe. Most if not all of the points mentioned are not true and have not been for many many years.

This story makes me wonder how we would have fared in our revolutionary war if the pastors of the time had felt this way about the military. To be sure the military is not perfect and yes being in the military is a life changing experience however it is necessary in today's world.



Man, I'm sorry, but I think you are way off base. Heavenlyboy's post was awesome and all the points he mentioned are true. Just google any point that he made. Everything he stated is true.

[libertarian4321]

Man, I'm sorry, but I think you are way off base. Heavenlyboy's post was awesome and all the points he mentioned are true. Just google any point that he made. Everything he stated is true.

I just "Googled" the term "UFOs" and I got all kinds of crazy shit to come up- does that make it all true?

Years ago, people used to joke "if it's on TV, it must be true." Now I guess we are supposed to believe anything that comes up in a Google search?

[Baptist]

I just "Googled" the term "UFOs" and I got all kinds of crazy shit to come up- does that make it all true?

Years ago, people used to joke "if it's on TV, it must be true." Now I guess we are supposed to believe anything that comes up in a Google search?

/sigh

For example, every few months I read stories about how military families are wrecked because of multiple or long deployments. Every few weeks I read stories about the rise in alcohol and drug abuse in the military. Every few weeks I read stories about suicides reaching new highs. These are all from mainstream sources, not David Ike.

[Baptist]

And to all of you debating the history of U.S. involvement in WWI and WWII, why don't we go back further to our beloved Founding Fathers (who many pro-military revere, even though they know little about them)?

The Founders did not want a standing army. They knew that a military was one of the gravest threats to our freedoms. The Constitution only allows for a navy. We were a rag-tag bunch of farmers who kicked the world's greatest empire's butt twice, even though we had no standing army. It wasn't until after the war of 1812 that Americans bought into the con of a standing army.

You talk to any troop out there. 99.99999% will say it's their job to "follow orders." We are screwed.

[MelissaWV]

The Japanese had been waging aggressive expansionistic war long before the US did anything to them. It has become fashionable in recent years for some Americans to act like the Japanese were just peaceful bystanders who only got aggressive because we had "wronged" them. This simply is not the case.

You are aware that the USA did NOT ratify the Treaty of Versailles because it was considered too harsh? The USA signed a separate peace at a later date. Given that the USA did not ratify the Treaty of Versailles, I think it's a bit odd that you assign blame to the USA for all the ills of that agreement. The USA, of the major allies, was by far the least willing to severely punish the Central Powers, largely because the USA wanted the German and Austro-Hungarian economies to remain strong so that we could trade with them.

The quesiton wasn't whether or not the Japanese were peaceful or "nice" or any such thing. The question was about WWII. If one listens to mainstream logic, the reason the US leapt into WWII was in retaliation for Pearl Harbor. Pearl Harbor was a result of the US's position and dealings with Asian oil interests. The fact the US got involved at all over there is a hint that the Japanese were not just sipping tea and pondering their navels at the time. They were ruthless, and they were involved (as they have been various times throughout history) in tormenting their neighbor(s).

Least willing. I notice you didn't use "unwilling to severely punish." The US mucked about with the Treaty and surrounding issues, but ultimately...


On July 2, 1921, Congress adopted a joint resolution declaring the war at an end. The United States proclaimed its right to the privileges granted the other Allied nations in the Treaty, but assumed no corresponding obligations.

The US wanted to have its cake, and eat it, too. It's a matter of opinion, honestly, because you could argue technicality and I could argue spirit.

[MelissaWV]

And to all of you debating the history of U.S. involvement in WWI and WWII, why don't we go back further to our beloved Founding Fathers (who many pro-military revere, even though they know little about them)?

The Founders did not want a standing army. They knew that a military was one of the gravest threats to our freedoms. The Constitution only allows for a navy. We were a rag-tag bunch of farmers who kicked the world's greatest empire's butt twice, even though we had no standing army. It wasn't until after the war of 1812 that Americans bought into the con of a standing army.

You talk to any troop out there. 99.99999% will say it's their job to "follow orders." We are screwed.

The standing Navy, however, set a precedent for a standing military to defend against foreign threat. It was only a natural step to put forth new versions once the new technology made itself available to do so. The mistake was in having each new threat addressed by its own large branch, left intact and bloated and sucking up tax dollars during times of peace. If the United States did not tangle itself up in every skirmish around the world, it would have no need for such a mass of troops and weaponry, and could shrink down far more to the size the Founders were envisioning.

[libertarian4321]

/sigh

For example, every few months I read stories about how military families are wrecked because of multiple or long deployments. Every few weeks I read stories about the rise in alcohol and drug abuse in the military. Every few weeks I read stories about suicides reaching new highs. These are all from mainstream sources, not David Ike.

The fact that a small minority of soldiers may have marriage problems or start drinking more or commit suicide does not mean that most soldiers have those problems. Nor does it mean that most of the assertions in the original post are true. Some of what he wrote is true, and some is utter horse crap.

I base this not on magazine articles, but on actually having been in the military.

[Southron]

In my opinion, military service in and of itself should not be honored.

Certainly there are honorable people in our military.

And I also agree that we should hold our politicians more accountable for any immoral actions our military commits.

But if we stop honoring just anyone who enlists then perhaps the allure of glory won't attract quite as many to join up.

To me you are an honorable man if you care and provide for your family and work hard at whatever you do.

You don't have to wield a rifle against some Arab in a faraway desert to be deserving of honor.

[fisharmor]

Man, I'm sorry, but I think you are way off base. Heavenlyboy's post was awesome and all the points he mentioned are true. Just google any point that he made. Everything he stated is true.

And I really wish you both would take the next logical step here - Heavenlyboy got close with his reference to chaplains.

The military is the priesthood of the American state religion, and warfare is their sacrament.

The devotion to the armed forces of the state goes beyond what sad, ineffective boundaries the constitution is supposed to maintain. This devotion crosses brazenly into the territory of the golden calf.

It is their Baal.

When one chooses to have his mortal remains displayed alongside those who also served the state, the observer doesn't have to guess where that soldier's loyalties were, and it's not what the forty seconds of stone carving are meant to tell us. Sure, there aren't really Church cemeteries anymore - but I don't see any of these "true believers" attempting to fix that, either.

There are a lot of things I could say about the average military grunt. In the right company I might even say a lot of the things that were said in this thread.

But there is one thing I will not readily say about them. I will not say that they are Christians.

[Wolfgang Bohringer]

Baptist wrote:
The Founders did not want a standing army. They knew that a military was one of the gravest threats to our freedoms.

Thank you Baptist.

At the constitutional convention, Elbridge Gerry asked:



What, sir, is the use of a militia? It is to prevent the establishment of a standing army, the bane of liberty.


In a letter to Francis Hopkinson (March 13, 1789), Thomas Jefferson wrote that:



a [federal] bill of rights [must] secure freedom in religion, freedom of the press, [and] freedom from a permanent military..."


To James Madison, on December 20, 1787, Jefferson wrote that a federal Bill of Rights must:



"provide clearly...for freedom of religion, freedom of the press, [and] protection against standing armies..."


Again to Madison, on July 31, 1788, Jefferson wrote that:



It seems generally understood that [a federal Bill of Rights] should go to Juries, Habeas corpus, [and] Standing Armies..."


Virginia Declaration of Rights (1776):



standing armies...should be avoided as dangerous to liberty.


Nearly every state bill of rights includes the right to be free from throngs of armed government thugs.

[Baptist]

The standing Navy, however, set a precedent for a standing military to defend against foreign threat. It was only a natural step to put forth new versions once the new technology made itself available to do so. The mistake was in having each new threat addressed by its own large branch, left intact and bloated and sucking up tax dollars during times of peace. If the United States did not tangle itself up in every skirmish around the world, it would have no need for such a mass of troops and weaponry, and could shrink down far more to the size the Founders were envisioning.

Yeah, I'm wondering if it was a mistake to give the federal government the enumerated power of protecting the states. Of course, if the feds had no monopoly on force then one could argue that the central government could not enforce its will on states (to make sure trade is free, for example). Similarly, one could argue that if states were responsible for their own security, that there might be more civil wars or wars between states. However, if you ask me, it would be easier to solve problems that arise from a federal government with zero military power, than it is trying to solve the current problems we are facing from tyrannical D.C.

[SooperDave]

this is a complicated question, because so many of the young men and women in the armed forces are educated (brainwashed) by gov't schools and haven't yet learned the truth. I rec'd a private high school education and then state college education, and those institutions never taught me one thing about how the U.S. (and the world) really functions.

so, it's difficult to say they don't serve honorably when they don't know any better. ignorance of the truth is no excuse but when the vast majority of people are ignorant of what's going on...then what!?

[echebota]

In my opinion, military service in and of itself should not be honored.

Certainly there are honorable people in our military.

And I also agree that we should hold our politicians more accountable for any immoral actions our military commits.

But if we stop honoring just anyone who enlists then perhaps the allure of glory won't attract quite as many to join up.

To me you are an honorable man if you care and provide for your family and work hard at whatever you do.

You don't have to wield a rifle against some Arab in a faraway desert to be deserving of honor.


That

[constituent]

so, it's difficult to say they don't serve honorably when they don't know any better. ignorance of the truth is no excuse but when the vast majority of people are ignorant of what's going on...then what!?

http://www.audiobooksonline.com/media/Catch-22-Joseph-Heller-unabridged-compact-discs-Harper-Audio.jpg