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View Full Version : What are your thoughts on the recent expose of electronic factories in China?




Vessol
05-28-2010, 01:33 AM
Reading this article over at Kotaku, I was wondering what your thoughts were on this situation. In your opinion, what would be the free market way that this could be solved or at least improved?

http://kotaku.com/5549907/dear-apple-nintendo-sony-and-microsoft

I'll reply with my own thoughts I believe after I get some sleep.

Endgame
05-28-2010, 02:00 AM
I'm not sure what needs to be solved here.

libertythor
05-28-2010, 02:03 AM
Soon China's living standards will rise, and those factories will be in Africa.

Marenco
05-28-2010, 02:25 AM
Soon China's living standards will rise, and those factories will be in Africa.

I don't think the ruling elite would like a middle class in China.

axiomata
05-28-2010, 02:46 AM
I don't think the ruling elite would like a middle class in China.
The ruling elite don't have a say in the matter.

shenlu54
05-28-2010, 04:43 AM
This is not the most shocking story,the hottest news recently in China is 13 workers of a big international company naming foxconn have committed suicide within half a year.

Their average salary is 2000 yuan a month, almost 300$ a month.They work 12 hours to 16 hours a day.

Foxconn produces IPod and IPhone for Apple.I think that's why IPhone is so cheap in US market now ......

hugolp
05-28-2010, 04:56 AM
This is not the most shocking story,the hottest news recently in China is 13 workers of a big international company naming foxconn have committed suicide within half a year.

Their average salary is 2000 yuan a month, almost 300$ a month.They work 12 hours to 16 hours a day.

Foxconn produces IPod and IPhone for Apple.I think that's why IPhone is so cheap in US market now ......

Yes, same thing happened in France last year. People from a telecomunications company started suiciding one after another.

I really dont understand why people dont try to change job, even going to work on a McDonalds or something, but stay in a job that is clearly destroying them. Honestly I think the only way to understand is to go through the same process and I hope nobody does.

shenlu54
05-28-2010, 05:30 AM
Yes, same thing happened in France last year. People from a telecomunications company started suiciding one after another.

I really dont understand why people dont try to change job, even going to work on a McDonalds or something, but stay in a job that is clearly destroying them. Honestly I think the only way to understand is to go through the same process and I hope nobody does.

I think in this case,those workers don't have a choice.

They all come from inland rural districts.Thanks to the inflation (of the money supply),they have to leave their homeland,have to work for those international corparations in coastal cities.They are destined to work to death,or starve to death.

In my opinion,they have no future.

YumYum
05-28-2010, 06:23 AM
At least the people are employed. What will Americans do when they not only can't find work, but can't collect unemployment, food stamps or sympathy?

hugolp
05-28-2010, 08:36 AM
I think in this case,those workers don't have a choice.

They all come from inland rural districts.Thanks to the inflation (of the money supply),they have to leave their homeland,have to work for those international corparations in coastal cities.They are destined to work to death,or starve to death.

In my opinion,they have no future.

Yes, probably, I dont know much about the case in China. I was talking for the french ones. I dont understand how they arrived to that extreme without chaning jobs first.

werdd
05-28-2010, 09:19 AM
This is not the most shocking story,the hottest news recently in China is 13 workers of a big international company naming foxconn have committed suicide within half a year.

Their average salary is 2000 yuan a month, almost 300$ a month.They work 12 hours to 16 hours a day.

Foxconn produces IPod and IPhone for Apple.I think that's why IPhone is so cheap in US market now ......

You gotta consider that foxconn has 500k employees working in one factory complex alone. Statistics arent that bad when compared to wallstreet

erowe1
05-28-2010, 09:27 AM
We need to get rid of all the minimum wage laws, child labor laws, occupational safety and health regulations, and any other regulations that get in the way of companies being able to run factories like those here.

We have so many unemployed people here, some of whom would like to be able to offer their labor at lower wages and under worse conditions than the government will allow them to. But since they can't, they remain unemployed. There's no possible excuse for this travesty of justice.

echebota
05-28-2010, 10:03 AM
Yes, same thing happened in France last year. People from a telecomunications company started suiciding one after another.

I really dont understand why people dont try to change job, even going to work on a McDonalds or something, but stay in a job that is clearly destroying them. Honestly I think the only way to understand is to go through the same process and I hope nobody does.

As stated already governments have no say in this matter. In fact in French case government is the reason people committed suicide.

The company Hugolp referred to is France Telecom. This is international company now but it started out as an incumbent provider France and up until 5 years ago majority stakeholder was French government (now they hold almost nothing). So many employees in France are still on a government contract even though they are on France Telecom payroll. As we know telecom technology progresses rapidly and old technology skills might not be needed any more. FT is a very well managed company now, and a very innovative one. Managers are/were doing their best to keep the company competitive with the weight of the government and unions limitations. The company is forced by the government and union to keep employees on the payroll and can not simply lay off people in France. Keep in mind that FT employs around 100,000 people in France. So all FT employees in France whose positions have been terminated are offered 2 options 1) to be retrained to a new skill set at the company expense + new position 2) to be relocated outside of FT to one of the French government agencies. In fact it goes to such extremes that many people were being kept on a full payroll without having any function in the company. They can come to the office but they would have nothing to do. Even though the treatment of these people is far from harsh many of them have and had hard time adjusting. I assume because working for government for decades kills this ability to adjust that was required there. 20 people killed themselves in a course of 18 months. It's a tragedy, don't get me wrong. And my heart goes to these people families, but I just want to show you how government swamp can break lives.

YumYum
05-28-2010, 10:33 AM
We need to get rid of all the minimum wage laws, child labor laws, occupational safety and health regulations, and any other regulations that get in the way of companies being able to run factories like those here.

We have so many unemployed people here, some of whom would like to be able to offer their labor at lower wages and under worse conditions than the government will allow them to. But since they can't, they remain unemployed. There's no possible excuse for this travesty of justice.

You're kidding, right?

MelissaWV
05-28-2010, 10:46 AM
This was already addressed quite some time ago, and some research into the matter reveals that these "shocking" conditions, in context for what's the norm in the country, are not actually that "shocking." You could write stories along these lines regarding people in Detroit or any major, mostly run-down city. "Minimum wage" doesn't even apply to every job in the US, and in most cities it isn't really enough to "get by" to just work one minimum wage job and regular hours. There are people in this country working many, many hours to make ends meet. There are just fewer of them than in a lot of other nations, of course, because many realize they can mooch and get what they want from Government programs.

Yes, they're at least employed. Before the urge to "help" people overtakes us in the USA, it would behoove many to play out the consequences of that "help" on the population we're trying to save. Closing these plants down, forcing costly changes to the status quo, or increasing salaries (in some cases to the point that people would be rich by local standards... for putting together some cheap plastic toys); all of these things can lead the factories to seek greener pastures. That leaves the former workers with their pride intact, their lives, their fingers, or whatever you feel you were trying to save... but it would also leave them jobless. Being jobless, especially now and especially in big city areas, is another kind of suicide.

If the conditions are still considered too horrible in someone's opinion, there are various options to help without trying to bring in one Big Government or another.

You can increase your awareness, and your community's awareness, of products that are made without slave/cheap labor. The downside to this is that you will need to be utterly thorough, and pretty much every company uses SOMETHING that was produced by slave/cheap labor. This might be as simple as a local business doing everyting organic and wholesome, then using the computer manufactured under the conditions in the OP to do their taxes and payroll. Still, you can try to avoid the "worst" of the companies and spread knowledge of that fact. Encourage the smaller companies to incorporate the information into their ads whenever possible.

You can lobby companies that do seem to care about their workers to build factories overseas in some of these locations and employ the locals in safer, better-paying jobs. The downside is that these jobs done overseas are often seen as jobs that could have been done by people in the USA (for way more money and benefits, of course, but people ignore that). It might backfire for the company in question. Still, if they were already going to build something overseas, perhaps competing with a rival whose working conditions are horrible and, again, incorporating that into their ads could lead to product differentiation that breaks in their favor.

You can personally give to charities that assist people living in squalor in those countries that you feel treat their workers unfairly, or volunteer your time to help them.

The Government getting involved, especially in various overseas countries, often means conditions aren't really going to improve, and that officials will just get more bribes and kickbacks to look the other way. At "best," the company will shutter its sweatshops and simply go elsewhere, stranding people who are working in those conditions in an even worse situation.

erowe1
05-28-2010, 10:49 AM
You're kidding, right?

Absolutely not.

Either those regulations prevent people from being able to offer their labor under worse conditions than the government would allow them to offer it, or else the regulations accomplish nothing.

YumYum
05-28-2010, 11:27 AM
Absolutely not.

Either those regulations prevent people from being able to offer their labor under worse conditions than the government would allow them to offer it, or else the regulations accomplish nothing.

Could you kindly explain this to the families of the eleven that were just killed on the BP oil rig?

MelissaWV
05-28-2010, 11:31 AM
Could you kindly explain this to the families of the eleven that were just killed on the BP oil rig?

Right, but those were "allowable" conditions :p

Of course, safety is a huge industry in and of itself in the USA now. All of those mandates cause people to be employed making goggles, splashguards, and ergonomic cubicles.

Personally, I always hated child labor laws. One of the major reasons I couldn't leave home earlier than I did was because I didn't have the money to do so. I didn't have the money to do so because I was very limited in my work hours, and had to take mandated breaks, not work overtime, be done by a certain hour, and so forth. It was ridiculous.

dean.engelhardt
05-28-2010, 11:35 AM
I don't think the ruling elite would like a middle class in China.

I've read otherwise. China's government wants to build a middle class.

erowe1
05-28-2010, 11:38 AM
Could you kindly explain this to the families of the eleven that were just killed on the BP oil rig?

If your premise is that those people owe their deaths to the government's not being involved enough in telling people what kinds of conditions they can offer to work under, then I don't accept that premise.

If someone wants to make a living doing ultimate fighting, or defusing bombs, or working on oil rigs that have a risk of exploding, then it's their decision to make, and it's up to them, and not me, to decide how much they demand to be compensated for those risks.

erowe1
05-28-2010, 11:40 AM
Personally, I always hated child labor laws. One of the major reasons I couldn't leave home earlier than I did was because I didn't have the money to do so. I didn't have the money to do so because I was very limited in my work hours, and had to take mandated breaks, not work overtime, be done by a certain hour, and so forth. It was ridiculous.

My wife's family immigrated here from Vietnam when she was 14. They had nothing and knew hardly any English, with the kids knowing more and learning it faster than the parents. They were dependent on relatives. My wife would have loved to be able to help out by getting a job, and she couldn't fathom why the government would take that right away from her. Neither can I. Those laws were not there for her own good, they were there to protect unions from cheap competition.

Fox McCloud
05-28-2010, 11:42 AM
the funny thing is, if this level of reporting was around in the very lat 1800's and the early 1900's, they'd think the story was some kind of joking satire--every nation goes through this stage, including the United States.

It's just that we went through it so long ago that people are used to their uppity, cushy, plush lifestyles and have no idea what it was like back then (we're "free riders" on the past, to say); we need to come to grips with the fact that every country who's growing goes through this and we need to butt out.

Carole
05-28-2010, 12:14 PM
I visited several of the related links from that article. It is very disturbing.

Apple – Lemmings
YouTube - Apple - Lemmings (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PYP1Tjgt1Ao&feature=player_embedded)

12th Foxconn Employee Jumps; Becomes 10th To Die
http://gizmodo.com/5548983/12th-foxconn-employee-jumps-becomes-10th-to-die

Accompanying photo shows a face of despair IMHO. I doubt these pople are happy.

Another death at China iPhone maker's plant
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE64Q14420100527?feedType=RSS&feedName=technologyNews&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+reuters%2FtechnologyNews+%28N ews+%2F+US+%2F+Technology%29

Installing "safety nets"!!!!!!!!!!!! Spending money on nets instead of increased wages and shorter hours, better working condidtions. Obviously, they expect a lot more folks to "break" their contracts and jump. How is this an answer to the situation?

Really, no job is worse than robotic repetitive work for long hours. Fifteen minutes seems like two hours when a person is doing such work. A twelve hour day might seem like a week. A sic day week might seem like a month. One day off to "have a life" and do their laundry. These people take sponge baths from a bucket of water.

I have read that they kidnap children/young people from the farms to bring to the city for work. I do not know if it is factory work or something more nefarious, but all this makes me sick.

Carole
05-28-2010, 12:16 PM
"Soon China's living standards will rise, and those factories will be in Africa."

LOL

That is NOT going to happen. Imagine billions of middle class people in China!!!!!!!!

The goal is to bring the U.S. and other well-to-do countries DOWN to the level of China!!!!

WorldonaString
05-28-2010, 12:35 PM
I had an hour long conversation with one of my chinese students just today talking about Foxconn. Its BIG news here in China and people are concerned. But at the same time, my student made sure to point out that there are over 280,000 employees at Foxconn and that the suicides have spikes since making headlines...suggesting that the publicity has become a factor for distraught employees. Nevertheless, Beijing has just announced they are sending a team of investigators to Shen Zhen this week. The decision was made after a 13th person recently jumped.

While the factory is by no means a utopia (workers live there near all the time, as they cover basic housing) my VP of human resources student was confident when claiming that the conditions of this particular company have been found to be no worse than the competition. When pressed for an explanation as to why such a high suicide rate, he cited the media.

This is not necessarily my opinion...I need to investigate more...but it was a very interesting conversation with an actual local. Take it for what its worth.

Southron
05-28-2010, 01:01 PM
At least this should make you think twice about buying more Chinese goods.

I'm sure in many cases that slavery might be an improvement over some of those working conditions and it's sad.

fisharmor
05-28-2010, 01:38 PM
You're kidding, right?

I suppose we need a government to institute the American solution.
Take people from rural areas, get them through 13 years of compulsory state indoctrination, strongly suggest that they sign up for 2-6 years of military service slaughtering brown people, and then they can cozy into a job as either a bucket-headed state enforcer of some sort, or they can use their GI bill money to get a correspondence degree -

and that, combined with military service, gives that mouth-breathing moron the God-given right to a desk job pushing paper around, and they'll get paid $75k to start, with all federal holidays off, three weeks paid vacation a year, and full medical and retirement programs.

The reality is that the people we're rewarding this way are only getting this reward because we're financing their pay with the hard work of Chinese factory workers.

Either you believe the market will work things out, or you don't. I believe that there is so much talent and wealth and individual initiative in this nation that if we dropped the lead weights, there would be no country on Earth, no amount of slave labor, and no amount of protectionism that could stand in our way.

Carole is right. The goal is not to improve conditions in China. If it was, we'd leave them the hell alone. The goal is to hang more lead weights on more limbs, until nobody is able to move.