Gays in the military, here it comes boys and girls!

[TheFlashlight.org]

Here's the hilarious part:

The proposal would let lawmakers vote now to repeal the law and allow people who are openly gay to serve, once the president and top military leaders certify that the repeal wouldn't threaten the military's "readiness, effectiveness, unit cohesion, and recruiting and retention," according to documents the sponsors sent to the administration.

That would be a very untruthful certification is there ever was one.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-dont-ask-20100525,0,3150384.story

[MelissaWV]

"Don't Ask, Don't Tell" is a pesky thing. It gives far too many people an "out" if there's a draft.

[TonySutton]

It is an attempt by the democrats to breath some life into their base. The pentagon will finish their review Dec. 1, after the Nov election.

[jmdrake]

"Don't Ask, Don't Tell" is a pesky thing. It gives far too many people an "out" if there's a draft.

The Klinger solution. :D

http://bentcorner.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/klinger.jpg

[MsDoodahs]

The Klinger solution. :D

http://bentcorner.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/klinger.jpg

lol classic!

[Stary Hickory]

Well then how do you deal with gay men and hetero men who do not want to be FORCED to shower and live/sleep together. This also needs to be solved, otherwise all WOMEN,MEN, and GAYS(whatever gender) should be put into general living conditions.

[ammorris]

I am in favor of whichever policy results in fewer people joining the military.

[TonySutton]

Well then how do you deal with gay men and hetero men who do not want to be FORCED to shower and live/sleep together. This also needs to be solved, otherwise all WOMEN,MEN, and GAYS(whatever gender) should be put into general living conditions.

There are already gay and straight men showering together and sleeping in the same tents.

We already went through a similar issue with women. For most it was no big deal, for the few who could not control themselves we have the UCMJ. Which by the way is how Ron Paul says it should be handled.

[specsaregood]

Well then how do you deal with gay men and hetero men who do not want to be FORCED to shower and live/sleep together.
They could just not signup. As long as there isn't a draft that is.

I'm all for it. If gays want to go volunteer to be meatshields and pawns for politicians with no morals, by all means go for it.

[dannno]

"Don't Ask, Don't Tell" is a pesky thing. It gives far too many people an "out" if there's a draft.

Unless they have to prove it, then it becomes a very difficult decision :D

[Stary Hickory]

There are already gay and straight men showering together and sleeping in the same tents.

We already went through a similar issue with women. For most it was no big deal, for the few who could not control themselves we have the UCMJ. Which by the way is how Ron Paul says it should be handled.

No it is not like women and men. Because they sleep and shower separately. If they were integrated in then there would not be these differences. If such an exception can be made for women then the same can be said for gays and heteros. Sex and sexuality seems to be where the line is drawn...the hypocrisy is disgusting.

[MelissaWV]

No it is not like women and men. Because they sleep and shower separately. If they were integrated in then there would not be these differences. If such an exception can be made for women then the same can be said for gays and heteros. Sex and sexuality seems to be where the line is drawn...the hypocrisy is disgusting.

I think the point is that there really are already gay men in the military, and "don't ask don't tell" even implies that it's a widely-known fact. Without the "tell" part, you don't know which person around you is "gay." With the "tell" part, you do, and you can decide not to shower while "Gay Gary" is using the shower, if it makes you uncomfortable. You can decide not to bunk with him. You can decide to avoid eating next to him to a certain extent. Of course, this is all "on base" stuff.

What happens out in combat? What happens to "Gay Gary" as far as getting beat up or worse because he's gay? Will there be special assignments for gays, or perhaps special protections (such as the specific duties women are and aren't allowed to do)? If so, isn't that incredibly disingenuous?

There are questions that still need to be resolved, but honestly I see it more as removing a roadblock to the draft. And dannno, there's a huge limit as to what the military can ask you to do to demonstrate something. Maybe you'd just have to kiss a dude and you'd be out of the draft. Would you kiss for peace? lol

[jmdrake]

There are already gay and straight men showering together and sleeping in the same tents.

We already went through a similar issue with women. For most it was no big deal, for the few who could not control themselves we have the UCMJ. Which by the way is how Ron Paul says it should be handled.

:eek: Men and women sleep and shower together in the military? ;)

[pcosmar]

Cool
Now the military will be just like prison life.
Fuck, Fight ,or Hit the Fence.
:rolleyes:

[0zzy]

Why should someone not be able to go into the military based on their sexual orientation?

[CasualApathy]

http://taatamata.files.wordpress.com/2009/11/gay-army.jpg

[surf]

hasn't this already been legislated under the CRA of 1964?

seriously though, on a personal note: i don't fucking care and i'm disturbed that "conservatives" do. imo we should be talking about ending war rather than the sexual preference of our killing machines.

[TonySutton]

:eek: Men and women sleep and shower together in the military? ;)

We used the same facilities. Early on, when enlisted women started deploying, we were not equipped to handle two sexes but we worked things out. When we only had one restroom we had shower times for the ladies and shower times for the men. If the restroom could not facilitate 2 sexes, the lady would take an assistant with her to empty the restroom and watch the door until she was finished. It was a bit of a hassle but we handled it well.

Barriers between toilets and urinals allow for adequate privacy. Individual shower stalls with curtains work well also. During my time in the Marines I saw my share of people who desired extreme privacy. They would wait until no one was around so they could shower in privacy, in places where we had communal showers. Where we had shower stalls they would go into the stall nearly dressed and undress inside, shower and then dress in the stall.

The concept that this is really an issue is totally fabricated in the minds of people who are grasping at straws on this issue.

[TheFlashlight.org]

Why should someone not be able to go into the military based on their sexual orientation?

You can call it "sexual orientation" if you want to use the communist phrase. I call it crazy, and the DSM agreed with me untli the 1970s. At any rate, I feel sorry for homosexuals and I know they aren't evil or anything, but they do have mental problems and in my mind, it would definitely affect the efficiency and capability of our fighting forces. Gays have a different perspective on stuff since they can't imagine themselves actually having biological children and that skews their priorities, I think. I used to be open minded from the brainwashing, and then I tried being friends with gays I met, and it turns out that they're all sex obsessed and care about nothing even remotely as much as they care about the fact that they are gay. So, yes, vain, sex-obsessed, into drugs, and typically promiscuous. On average, of course.

[catdd]

20 bucks says the ACLU is behind this.

[MelissaWV]

You can call it "sexual orientation" if you want to use the communist phrase. I call it crazy, and the DSM agreed with me untli the 1970s. At any rate, I feel sorry for homosexuals and I know they aren't evil or anything, but they do have mental problems and in my mind, it would definitely affect the efficiency and capability of our fighting forces. Gays have a different perspective on stuff since they can't imagine themselves actually having biological children and that skews their priorities, I think. I used to be open minded from the brainwashing, and then I tried being friends with gays I met, and it turns out that they're all sex obsessed and care about nothing even remotely as much as they care about the fact that they are gay. So, yes, vain, sex-obsessed, into drugs, and typically promiscuous. On average, of course.

So you should only be allowed in the military if you're fertile?

"Vain, sex-obsessed... and typically promiscuous," thankfully, doesn't describe any of the men in their late teens and early twenties which make up the bulk of our military. ;)

[CasualApathy]

Why can't we all just get along?

[TheFlashlight.org]

So you should only be allowed in the military if you're fertile?

"Vain, sex-obsessed... and typically promiscuous," thankfully, doesn't describe any of the men in their late teens and early twenties which make up the bulk of our military. ;)

I knew someone would say the fertile argument, cause it's a good argument, and that's what my wife says to me. I don't think it's the same. One's a physical disorder, one's a mental disorder. I'm all for gays having total freedom and being accepted in society like they typically are now. The military is a life or death thing. Whole peoples have lived and died based on their militaries. I don't think the gays should use it as some kind of feel good barrier that they need to break down to prove that they're just like everyone else.

Just to note, I absolutely believe that homosexuality is there from birth, and is NOT a choice. I'm really not a bigot, but wherever the truth and facts lead, that's where I try to be.

[MelissaWV]

Why can't we all just get along?

That would be gay.

Incidentally, there's something mighty giggleworthy about the dictionary definitions for gay:

gay   /geɪ/ Show Spelled [gey] Show IPA adjective, -er, -est, noun, adverb
–adjective
1. having or showing a merry, lively mood: gay spirits; gay music.
2. bright or showy: gay colors; gay ornaments.
3. given to or abounding in social or other pleasures: a gay social season.
4. licentious; dissipated; wanton: The baron is a gay old rogue with an eye for the ladies.
5. homosexual.
6. of, indicating, or supporting homosexual interests or issues: a gay organization.

[fisharmor]

One of two things would result from full "integration".

On one hand, all their dire predictions about compromising readiness and reducing morale could come true. If that happened then we have a case for reclaiming the role of the militia, and politicians have much less of a case for the extermination of the brown-skinned villain-du-jour.

On the other hand, all of the folks out there who claim to be good, moral, Christian people but really subordinate all of that religion crap to their patent worship of the state would have really good cause to doubt their devotion to one or the other. And I'm guessing that even though their devotion to the state is currently paramount, they'll probably switch teams.

Either way the military is made generally weaker, and we all win.

[TonySutton]

You can call it "sexual orientation" if you want to use the communist phrase. I call it crazy, and the DSM agreed with me untli the 1970s. At any rate, I feel sorry for homosexuals and I know they aren't evil or anything, but they do have mental problems and in my mind, it would definitely affect the efficiency and capability of our fighting forces. Gays have a different perspective on stuff since they can't imagine themselves actually having biological children and that skews their priorities, I think. I used to be open minded from the brainwashing, and then I tried being friends with gays I met, and it turns out that they're all sex obsessed and care about nothing even remotely as much as they care about the fact that they are gay. So, yes, vain, sex-obsessed, into drugs, and typically promiscuous. On average, of course.

How do you explain a man like me who has biological children (2 boys, 2 girls) served honorably for 20 years in the Marines and have had less than a dozen sex partners in my 48 years on this earth. Your stereotype does not seem to fit this gay man.

[MelissaWV]

I knew someone would say the fertile argument, cause it's a good argument, and that's what my wife says to me. I don't think it's the same. One's a physical disorder, one's a mental disorder. I'm all for gays having total freedom and being accepted in society like they typically are now. The military is a life or death thing. Whole peoples have lived and died based on their militaries. I don't think the gays should use it as some kind of feel good barrier that they need to break down to prove that they're just like everyone else.

Just to note, I absolutely believe that homosexuality is there from birth, and is NOT a choice. I'm really not a bigot, but wherever the truth and facts lead, that's where I try to be.

The outcome, however, is the same. Some folks know their entire lives that they will not be parents. If you think that has zero impact, mentally, on the person who has to deal with it... you're wrong. In fact, homosexuals still have the proper equipment, and can get a surrogate to carry offspring, so they have a one-up on the person who physically cannot get pregnant or get someone else pregnant.

You are ignoring the basic fact that this debate is not about allowing gays into the military. They're there. They have been there. There are gay WWII vets, for pity's sake, and I 100% believe there have been soldiers from much further back who were gay (in this country), but they're not around to let us know. The debate is about whether or not to dismiss someone the moment they out themselves or are outted while in the military. It's not some "feel good barrier," because they're already in the military. It's about not having to pretend to be someone else just to be there to begin with.

I've already posed the questions that need to be answered, and frankly I think the agenda is other than what's being stated.

[Badger Paul]

"readiness, effectiveness, unit cohesion, and recruiting and retention,"

That will come as soon as Obama's re-elected.

[TheFlashlight.org]

Well, I don't mean to dishonor your military service. And, that's the danger of speaking in general terms, you're only right about the bulk of the people towards the middle of the bell shaped curve. There are all sorts of variations and contradictions to the rule. I guess that is one of the issues that faces society's planners, and I happen to think freedom is the best solution. I'm just not convinced with the gays in the military issue. I feel like it's part of the general Democratic/Socialist impulse towards tearing down all that is exceptional and great in mankind and making everyone THE SAME, a large mediocre morass, despite all evidence to the contrary that is constantly in front of everyone's senses.

Back to your question about what I think of your situation. I don't know. Good job.

[Southron]

Perhaps this is also to gain more support for our wars and nation building on the left?

[TheFlashlight.org]

The outcome, however, is the same. Some folks know their entire lives that they will not be parents. If you think that has zero impact, mentally, on the person who has to deal with it... you're wrong. In fact, homosexuals still have the proper equipment, and can get a surrogate to carry offspring, so they have a one-up on the person who physically cannot get pregnant or get someone else pregnant.

You are ignoring the basic fact that this debate is not about allowing gays into the military. They're there. They have been there. There are gay WWII vets, for pity's sake, and I 100% believe there have been soldiers from much further back who were gay (in this country), but they're not around to let us know. The debate is about whether or not to dismiss someone the moment they out themselves or are outted while in the military. It's not some "feel good barrier," because they're already in the military. It's about not having to pretend to be someone else just to be there to begin with.

I've already posed the questions that need to be answered, and frankly I think the agenda is other than what's being stated.

Those are good arguments. I'm just going to ruminate about all of our different opinions. It's good to talk without the need to force a consensus, which just leads to fighting. Liberty is cool.

[CasualApathy]

That would be gay.

lol :p

[CasualApathy]

So how insecure do you have to be to be bothered by a gay man looking at you in the shower?

[TheFlashlight.org]

So how insecure do you have to be to be bothered by a gay man looking at you in the shower?

I'm going to bus in some necrophiliacs to your grandfather's funeral. Don't be so insecure! Or some non-practicing pedophiles to your daughter's birthday party. Don't be so insecure!

I realize that that could be highly offensive to gay people. But stretching an argument to the extremes is just good debating.

[CasualApathy]

I'm going to bus in some necrophiliacs to your grandfather's funeral. Don't be so insecure!

lol, yea that is totally the same thing - getting turned on by your own sex and getting turned on by death...

But seriously, why would you be bothered?

I'd take it as a compliment. :P

[CasualApathy]

I realize that that could be highly offensive to gay people. But stretching an argument to the extremes is just good debating.

Well, to a degree, but I prefer to debate the actual issue.

[TheFlashlight.org]

lol, yea that is totally the same thing - getting turned on by your own sex and getting turned on by death...

But seriously, why would you be bothered?

I'd take it as a compliment. :P

Personally, hanging out with a bunch of straight men for days on end with no women around sounds like hell to me. So, I can't even wrap my head around the gay thing.

[TonySutton]

I'm going to bus in some necrophiliacs to your grandfather's funeral. Don't be so insecure! Or some non-practicing pedophiles to your daughter's birthday party. Don't be so insecure!

Do you have an overwhelming desire to have sex with every woman you see?

[Theocrat]

Honestly, part of me says we shouldn't allow homosexuals in the military because of their immoral lifestyle, and part of me says we should allow them in so maybe it will make men out of them.

Ultimately, I see this issue as another way the federal government is forcing people to accept a particular lifestyle by making them victims of "civil rights injustice." Most proponents of homosexuals in the military will say, "But gays have a right to serve their country!" In response to that, my question is always, "Do homosexuals have a God-given right to be gay?" And I think that question should be the first one discussed when asking about military service afforded to the gay community.

[CasualApathy]

Personally, hanging out with a bunch of straight men for days on end with no women around sounds like hell to me. So, I can't even wrap my head around the gay thing.

Well, it's worse for the gay dude after all.

Imagine being stranded on an island with 20 hot young playmates and not being able to act on it :P

[Brian4Liberty]

Well then how do you deal with gay men and hetero men who do not want to be FORCED to shower and live/sleep together. This also needs to be solved, otherwise all WOMEN,MEN, and GAYS(whatever gender) should be put into general living conditions.

Starship Troopers. ;)

Aye carumba, it put the clip up!

Broke link to avoid showing anything "offensive" here.

http://www. metacafe.com/watch/104171/starship_troopers_shower_scene/

[MelissaWV]

Well, it's worse for the gay dude after all.

Imagine being stranded on an island with 20 hot young playmates and not being able to act on it :P

You're assuming all the soldiers are attractive to the gay guy.

Most in the thread are also assuming these are single, horny, promiscuous homosexuals with no standards. If we apply those same characteristics to the heterosexuals in the military, woe to the "enemy" or even a hosting country; their women are at extreme risk!

[tmosley]

SURPRISE! There are already gays in the military! They're just in the closet.

[Warrior_of_Freedom]

Unless they have to prove it, then it becomes a very difficult decision :D

Hmm kiss a guy or die in a desert, I'll pick the first one.

Btw I learned in a western civilization class, gays in the military go way back to the middle ages and all that. They had homosexual tendencies because they were far away from their women :P

[furface]

I have a friend who was in the Navy and was facing another tour of duty. The way he got out of it was he "told." Now the military's paying his way through college and he's out of his commitment. Pretty good deal. If I were gay I wouldn't want that option taken away. This debate is a complete red herring.

[fisharmor]

Do you have an overwhelming desire to have sex with every woman you see?

Fail.
If they're nude and soaping themselves up in the shower right in front of me?
Perhaps not overwhelming, but I sure as hell wouldn't be thinking about baseball.

[MelissaWV]

Fail.
If they're nude and soaping themselves up in the shower right in front of me?
Perhaps not overwhelming, but I sure as hell wouldn't be thinking about baseball.

How about if it's someone absolutely hideous and not your type?

[Danke]

Another cocksucking thread about gays in the military.

[furface]

How about if it's someone absolutely hideous and not your type?

20 to 30 something women who are forced to exercise to stay in shape are pretty much all my type. I assume gay men would have similar tastes in men.

[MelissaWV]

20 to 30 something women who are forced to exercise to stay in shape are pretty much all my type. I assume gay men would have similar tastes.

So some little butch military chick with a face like it was hit with the ugly stick... twice... is your type? *shrugs* To each their own. Most of my gay friends have pretty varied tastes, not all of which would necessarily be tipped off by every military person. There's this odd assumption that gays would be hot for every single man they're around, and unable to control themselves. I will say it again: there are already gays in the military. If the aforementioned behavior is par for the course, why aren't there more "incidents" in the military, especially non-consensual incidents (since the worry seems to be on the part of straight guys about being checked out by gays)? It doesn't really add up.

[klamath]

We used the same facilities. Early on, when enlisted women started deploying, we were not equipped to handle two sexes but we worked things out. When we only had one restroom we had shower times for the ladies and shower times for the men. If the restroom could not facilitate 2 sexes, the lady would take an assistant with her to empty the restroom and watch the door until she was finished. It was a bit of a hassle but we handled it well.

Barriers between toilets and urinals allow for adequate privacy. Individual shower stalls with curtains work well also. During my time in the Marines I saw my share of people who desired extreme privacy. They would wait until no one was around so they could shower in privacy, in places where we had communal showers. Where we had shower stalls they would go into the stall nearly dressed and undress inside, shower and then dress in the stall.

The concept that this is really an issue is totally fabricated in the minds of people who are grasping at straws on this issue.
Sorry but the vast majority of living quarters and showers are segragated by sex in the military even in Iraq.
It was a general order punishable by UCMJ action for a man and women to socialize in living quarters and the showers were totally segragated.
In order to make it right the entire system needs to be desegragated with rights for gay soldiers.
I wouldn't of had any problems with coed showers during the 20 years I spent in the military:D

[Todd]

So some little butch military chick with a face like it was hit with the ugly stick... twice... is your type? *shrugs* To each their own. Most of my gay friends have pretty varied tastes, not all of which would necessarily be tipped off by every military person. There's this odd assumption that gays would be hot for every single man they're around, and unable to control themselves. I will say it again: there are already gays in the military. If the aforementioned behavior is par for the course, why aren't there more "incidents" in the military, especially non-consensual incidents (since the worry seems to be on the part of straight guys about being checked out by gays)? It doesn't really add up.

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but people in the military sometimes loose there friggin' minds when they get away on training excercises. So yes, this odd assumption that gays are hot for every single man/woman etc....and lack self control is not a chimera. Of course, to be fair, it works both ways with heterosexuals loosing there minds as well, but it's been a most recent problem in my unit and something that I have to deal with a lot more than I'd like.
And in my experience, the biggest purveyors of this aren't gay men, it's women.

[furface]

I belonged to a fraternity in college and found out years later that a good amount of the members were gay, and that there were lots of members having relationships with each other.

The thing is that the initiation ritual at the fraternity was littered with sadomasochistic events and themes. So much so that I actually eventually quit the fraternity because it disgusted me so much. Does it have anything to do with being gay? Maybe not, but hetero men who are into S&M generally don't enjoy doing it with a bunch of other guys.

Some of the Abu Graib stuff was utterly perverted. There's something perverse about America's military and how Americans view it nowadays. For what reason, I don't know.

[Brian4Liberty]

How about if it's someone absolutely hideous and not your type?

Don't you know that once a certain amount of skin is visible then people can't control themselves and have sex with anything and everything? :eek:

[MelissaWV]

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but people in the military sometimes loose there friggin' minds when they get away on training excercises. So yes, this odd assumption that gays are hot for every single man/woman etc....and lack self control is not a chimera. Of course, to be fair, it works both ways with heterosexuals loosing there minds as well, but it's been a most recent problem in my unit and something that I have to deal with a lot more than I'd like.
And in my experience, the biggest purveyors of this aren't gay men, it's women.

Most definitely, but this is a general characterization that the people in this thread are not really applying to all possible configurations. The behaviors are already punishable; I just don't see why there's a need to ejecting someone for "saying the magic word."

If (for example) a group of heterosexual military men lose their minds while overseas, and decide to not take "no" for an answer during a night on the town, they SHOULD be punished for raping the women in question. Of course, whether that would happen now is questionable... but that's another matter. Hell, if anyone's having sex while they're supposed to be doing something else, that seems to be a huge deal to me. You're on duty. Male/male, male/female, male/goat, female/object; you get the idea... whoever it is, whatever they're doing, they're on the job and they should be doing that, not having sex.

That's just my take, though :p

[Todd]

Most definitely, but this is a general characterization that the people in this thread are not really applying to all possible configurations. The behaviors are already punishable; I just don't see why there's a need to ejecting someone for "saying the magic word."

If (for example) a group of heterosexual military men lose their minds while overseas, and decide to not take "no" for an answer during a night on the town, they SHOULD be punished for raping the women in question. Of course, whether that would happen now is questionable... but that's another matter. Hell, if anyone's having sex while they're supposed to be doing something else, that seems to be a huge deal to me. You're on duty. Male/male, male/female, male/goat, female/object; you get the idea... whoever it is, whatever they're doing, they're on the job and they should be doing that, not having sex.

That's just my take, though :p

It's not always that extreme and those incidents are pretty cut and dry. In my experience the problems you are going to deal with are the little ones that can become little daily pin pricks on a unit's morale. They are much more subtle.

Exp: Particular females doing very odd things in showers, barracks....Asking odd questions...and most recently getting really bold and trying to recruit others to join their little "club". I'm not sure how you'd handle it, but imagine being a little 18 Year old Private right out of basic at a new duty station and having your new butch squad leader saying they will "take care of you".

[furface]

You're on duty. Male/male, male/female, male/goat, female/object; you get the idea... whoever it is, whatever they're doing, they're on the job and they should be doing that, not having sex.

That's just my take, though :p

I don't think that 20 year old men see the world in such a pluralistic manner. Most don't divide the world up into their work and their quest for sex. There's the quest of sex while they're at work and the quest for sex while there not at work, and then again there's the quest for sex. Did I mention the quest for sex for a 20 year old man?

[TonySutton]

Sorry but the vast majority of living quarters and showers are segragated by sex in the military even in Iraq.


I was talking about when enlisted women first started serving in forward units on a regular basis. I realize they have caught up with the facilities since then but in the beginning deploying with females was a challenge. Not sure which branch you served in but the Marines have a tendency to rough it, even the support units.

[MelissaWV]

I don't think that 20 year old men see the world in such a pluralistic manner. Most don't divide the world up into their work and their quest for sex. There's the quest of sex while they're at work and the quest for sex while there not at work, and then again there's the quest for sex. Did I mention the quest for sex for a 20 year old man?

Questing and doing are different things.

While you flirt at work, I doubt most people (even 20-year-old men) would shirk their duties to actually have sex at work while they are supposed to be doing something else. There are breaks, gaps between duties, and things of that nature... but in combat, if you're supposed to be manning a checkpoint and you are manning something else instead, that carries different consequences.

[klamath]

I was talking about when enlisted women first started serving in forward units on a regular basis. I realize they have caught up with the facilities since then but in the beginning deploying with females was a challenge. Not sure which branch you served in but the Marines have a tendency to rough it, even the support units.
I was in the army side of things. The women in my unit badly did not want to be segragated from the men in our unit. It made it logistically harder to stay informed with the everyday unit information when they had to seperate themselves in a multiunit female only barracks. Also they would rather be with the males soldiers that they knew and trusted in their own unit.

[TonySutton]

I was in the army side of things. The women in my unit badly did not want to be segragated from the men in our unit. It made it logistically harder to stay informed with the everyday unit information when they had to seperate themselves in a multiunit female only barracks. Also they would rather be with the males soldiers that they knew and trusted in their own unit.

It was the same for us.

[Vessol]

I couldn't care less besides this little loophole that would prevent me from getting drafted.

In the words of Bill Hicks, anyone dumb enough to want to join the military should be allowed to.

[furface]

I doubt most people (even 20-year-old men) would shirk their duties to actually have sex at work while they are supposed to be doing something else.

I think you have a very idealistic and perhaps untested view of the workplace, especially in the area of government employment.

[CasualApathy]

So some little butch military chick with a face like it was hit with the ugly stick... twice... is your type? *shrugs* To each their own.

Just put a bag over her head and poke a hole in it so she can breathe - problem solved :p

[klamath]

It was the same for us. Yes and every time the unit moved the females got shuffled into another barracks full of new females that they had to learn to trust.

[MelissaWV]

I think you have a very idealistic and perhaps untested view of the workplace, especially in the area of government employment.

I always waited until lunch or breaks.

[jmdrake]

I belonged to a fraternity in college and found out years later that a good amount of the members were gay, and that there were lots of members having relationships with each other.



http://www.veoh.com/collection/unhappilyeverafter/watch/v1060644gRYEQNj4

[Pericles]

There are already gay and straight men showering together and sleeping in the same tents.

We already went through a similar issue with women. For most it was no big deal, for the few who could not control themselves we have the UCMJ. Which by the way is how Ron Paul says it should be handled.

They have been in the military for some time. Keeping the fraternization policy tight,rather than allowing relationships between people in different units was the way to go, but didn't happen. The current mess is just one consequence of that.

[furface]

http://www.veoh.com/collection/unhappilyeverafter/watch/v1060644gRYEQNj4

LOL. The funny thing is that one of those frat guys is a dead ringer for one of my frat brother roommates who's now married to another guy. I guess my gaydar wasn't working so well back then.

[Reason]

That would be a very untruthful certification is there ever was one.


Bullshit.

[furface]

I always waited until lunch or breaks.

Past tense. Very mysterious.

[Pericles]

Starship Troopers. ;)

Aye carumba, it put the clip up!

Broke link to avoid showing anything "offensive" here.

http://www (http://www). metacafe.com/watch/104171/starship_troopers_shower_scene/

That movie really sucked (pun intended) compared to the book.

[MelissaWV]

Past tense. Very mysterious.

I don't work with the person I'm with at this time.

When I did, I always waited for lunches or breaks. Nothing mysterious about it :)

[TheFlashlight.org]

I have to get in the thoughts I've been having.

Ok, you've got to design the shower system for the military. Cleanliness is very important in war, it prevents disease from spreading. Two requirements: no sexual attraction distraction in WAR & efficiency.

Ok, you can stick a bunch of straight guys in a mass shower. Problem solved. As many as you want.

Oh, you want women in the military? Alright, I guess we can have a women section. Problem solved but less efficient.

Oh, gays have to be in the military? Shit. Ok, let's see how this doesn't work for even the simplest issue, showers.
1 gay man + any other man = sexual attraction distraction.
1 gay women + any other women = sexual attraction distraction.
1 gay man + straight women = sexual attraction distraction.
1 gay women + straight men = sexual attraction distraction.

1 gay man + 1 gay woman = okay, but no more people, straight or gay can be addded! So the most efficient system you can come up with with gays in the military is a bunch of shower stalls with capacity two, and they have to be occupied by 1 gay man and 1 gay woman!

How about let the gay guys shower with the men? That's what they do now. It's kinda a deal for the gays. If they let me shower with all the lesbians or straight women daily, I'd be in the military for life! Oh, don't be insecure, you say. Take it as a compliment! Well, I guess you won't mind if I come and shower with your wife or girlfriend? Take it as a compliment that I love to watch her soapy body. Don't be so insecure!

[TheFlashlight.org]

So, let's say you just throw your hands in the air and say all gays shower together. Let's say you have 100 gay men showering together. Now you've got a shitload of sexual attraction distraction. Enough to really frighten any general.

How much? We can quantify it. 100 choose 2 combination formula if you've had statistics.
100! / (2!(100-2)!) (the ! is factorial)

Who's got a calculator?

[TheFlashlight.org]

This is just more bullshit from the commies. Let's be frank, straight white males are the enemy of the left. We're hated and under constant attack. Any institution or tradition that favors straight white males is under attack. In the future, if we don't stop it, the state will require a marriage license that they can approve or disapprove based on the racial combination. Think that's far-fetched? Hardly. The Daily Kos writers would love to only allow your blue eyed daughter to marry a black man. It's for the good of all. And, after all, it's only skin color, right? Yeah, I went to college, where I was the enemy, where the "multicultural center" was code for ANTI straight white men. Where every subsidy and advantage was handed out to minorities and women BEFORE straight white men. Where every staffer was NOT a straight white man, and was indoctrinated to know who the enemy is. Where I had to read Maya Angelou over and over and over, but no classic books from Western Civilization. I know the game and wish people would just be more up front about it.

This is why so many young guys are into the liberty movement. We're not racist, but we don't like being second class citizens, and given the history of white men, the left better respect that and back off.

[MelissaWV]

Or, you know, you could have curtains like a lot of mass showers have... and not have everyone showering right up on each other anyhow.

The situation you have *RIGHT NOW* is heterosexual and homosexual men showering in the same general vicinity. In addition, you have a stigma attached to even looking (let alone accidentally touching... God help you!), which keeps people from invading one another's privacy.

Seriously, having another straight man looking at you and having the potential to bump against you isn't really that ideal, either. "Sexual attraction distraction" shouldn't be the only reason to consider privacy. See Sutton's post several pages ago about how people even dressed and undressed in the showers for a good example of that.

[Mini-Me]

Or, you know, you could have curtains like a lot of mass showers have... and not have everyone showering right up on each other anyhow.

The situation you have *RIGHT NOW* is heterosexual and homosexual men showering in the same general vicinity. In addition, you have a stigma attached to even looking (let alone accidentally touching... God help you!), which keeps people from invading one another's privacy.

Seriously, having another straight man looking at you and having the potential to bump against you isn't really that ideal, either. "Sexual attraction distraction" shouldn't be the only reason to consider privacy. See Sutton's post several pages ago about how people even dressed and undressed in the showers for a good example of that.

Exactly. Allowing openly gay people to join the military won't introduce new shower issues; it'll just let soldiers know for once who they might want to cover up around.

[QueenB4Liberty]

I don't think anyone should serve in the military, but if someone can then anyone should be able to.

[Warrior_of_Freedom]

This is just more bullshit from the commies. Let's be frank, straight white males are the enemy of the left. We're hated and under constant attack. Any institution or tradition that favors straight white males is under attack. In the future, if we don't stop it, the state will require a marriage license that they can approve or disapprove based on the racial combination. Think that's far-fetched? Hardly. The Daily Kos writers would love to only allow your blue eyed daughter to marry a black man. It's for the good of all. And, after all, it's only skin color, right? Yeah, I went to college, where I was the enemy, where the "multicultural center" was code for ANTI straight white men. Where every subsidy and advantage was handed out to minorities and women BEFORE straight white men. Where every staffer was NOT a straight white man, and was indoctrinated to know who the enemy is. Where I had to read Maya Angelou over and over and over, but no classic books from Western Civilization. I know the game and wish people would just be more up front about it.

This is why so many young guys are into the liberty movement. We're not racist, but we don't like being second class citizens, and given the history of white men, the left better respect that and back off.

Well said, every time I bring something like that up I'm just called a racist or something, it's getting old and my reply is usually something along the lines of "That isn't going to work anymore, and people like you are going to get what you deserve -- nothing"

[MelissaWV]

That's interesting and all... but... relevence?

[spudea]

straight men turn down sexual advances from women whom they do not like or find attractive. How is this different from a sexual advance from another guy? Answer: its not different.

There is already policy in place to handle sexual conduct between men and women in the military including reprimands and punishment for harassment. How is this different if gays are allowed to be true to themselves by serving openly? Answer: its not different.

You bring up the "shower scenario" and assume two adults couldn't work it out by themselves without disruption. If a gay guy is eyeing a straight guy in the shower, and the straight guy is uncomfortable with it, first he can explain hes not interested and to please turn away from him, if the gay guy continues, the straight guy can get witnesses and report the gay guy, the gay guy gets reprimanded. Situation concluded.

What happens now is that the gay guy (because he is not openly gay) can just deny it, and no punishment will be given because acknowledging gay activity is grounds for discharge.

[Brooklyn Red Leg]

That movie really sucked (pun intended) compared to the book.

Paul Verhoven should be buried in an Amazonian ant pile up to his neck and covered in honey for his atrocious treatment of a great piece of Libertarian fiction. And yes, who gives a fuck whether Gays want to serve openly in the military. More power to 'em.

[klamath]

straight men turn down sexual advances from women whom they do not like or find attractive. How is this different from a sexual advance from another guy? Answer: its not different.

There is already policy in place to handle sexual conduct between men and women in the military including reprimands and punishment for harassment. How is this different if gays are allowed to be true to themselves by serving openly? Answer: its not different.

You bring up the "shower scenario" and assume two adults couldn't work it out by themselves without disruption. If a gay guy is eyeing a straight guy in the shower, and the straight guy is uncomfortable with it, first he can explain hes not interested and to please turn away from him, if the gay guy continues, the straight guy can get witnesses and report the gay guy, the gay guy gets reprimanded. Situation concluded.

What happens now is that the gay guy (because he is not openly gay) can just deny it, and no punishment will be given because acknowledging gay activity is grounds for discharge.
Should this apply to men and women in the same shower as well?

[Mini-Me]

Should this apply to men and women in the same shower as well?

The analogous rule to today's situation would be something like, "Men can go into the women's showers as long as they tuck it in and pretend to be women. Women are not permitted to know which of their shower buddies are actually men." In such a situation, it might be better to allow men to announce their presence instead. ;)

[Brian4Liberty]

That movie really sucked (pun intended) compared to the book.

Did you read the book first? That usually ruins the movie.

You have to read the book to know the origin of the term "skinnies".

[puppetmaster]

"Don't Ask, Don't Tell" is a pesky thing. It gives far too many people an "out" if there's a draft.

yep

[TheFlashlight.org]

yep

According to my dad, him and his friends heard that if you tried to say you were gay during the Vietnam draft, they'd take you out behind the building, drop their pants, and say "prove it".

[Austrian Econ Disciple]

This should be a fucking non-issue. We have more important issues to deal with. How about we don't let anyone serve in the military (standing army), by not having one in the first place? Novel idea, I know......

[Brian4Liberty]

According to my dad, him and his friends heard that if you tried to say you were gay during the Vietnam draft, they'd take you out behind the building, drop their pants, and say "prove it".

Harold and Kumar. :D

[Agorism]

I doubt they cared if someone was gay when they had the Vietnam draft.