Pressuring North Korea to war.

[Vessol]

I know North Korea is far from a freedom loving or great or even sane nation, but isn't this a bit much, especially on our part? To me this seems like we are purposefully trying to bait North Korea into war. And who will benefit? Certainly not the outnumbered South Korean and U.S soldiers on the DMZ whom are pretty much cannon fodder. Nor the majority of the South Korean citizenry which lives within 100 miles of the DMZ.

"Sinking of the ROKS Cheonan:

* South Korea cuts off trade with North Korea and announces that North Korean ships will no longer be allowed to use South Korean waters. The government demands an apology over the sinking. (BBC)
* The South Korean military announces that it will resume the suspended practice of psychological warfare against North Korean guards on the Demilitarized zone, and that it would hold anti-submarine military exercises with the United States. (Yonhap) (Al Jazeera)
* South Korea announces that it will refer North Korea to the United Nations Security Council. (BBC)
* South Korea and the United States pressure China to allow UN action against North Korea. (The Guardian)"

[torchbearer]

if the north is losing control of its people, creating a dragon to fight would bring them back into the fold.
government manipulation goes both ways.

[JosephTheLibertarian]

if the north is losing control of its people, creating a dragon to fight would bring them back into the fold.
government manipulation goes both ways.

NK would get their ass kicked.

[Reason]

if the north is losing control of its people, creating a dragon to fight would bring them back into the fold.
government manipulation goes both ways.

http://www.shoppingblog.com/pics/enchanted_dragon_stuffed_buildabear.jpg

[awake]

Socialist countries tend to have starved means to engage in war like behavior let alone fight a prolonged campaign.

On the other hand, Statist warmongers in control of capitalist economies tend to acts of invasion, occupation, and empire in search of Hitlers all over the globe. The fruits of capitalism makes sustained agressive "preventive war" achievable to some extent.


Does the torpedo incident smell like a convenient pre-text? Sure it does. The Gulf of Tonkin incident would come to mind as a glaring example of inventing excuses to go to war in troubled economic times.

As the economies of the world begin to collapse you will see politicians seeking to change the national mood through war. In fact you have been witnessing it for some time now.

[cindy25]

NK would lose any war, but SK would lose Seoul

[Vessol]

NK would lose any war, but SK would lose Seoul

Yes, NK would definitely loose, but they would not go down with fight. They would pretty much zerg rush South Korea with their million man army at the DMZ.

[pcosmar]

Odd shit.
Been doing a bit of research, out of curiosity.
NK denies the attack. As a rule they are belligerent and rude. And they brag about their military.
The SK ship was in "Disputed" waters. WHY ?

The torpedo was of German origin. NK does not use German Torpedoes.

However SK does. As do others.

And now the war drums are beating.
If the North was picking a fight why deny it?
It does seem that others do want a fight though.

Looks like a False Flag incident to me.

[wd4freedom]

As Awake has stated the issue here is finding a "way out" for the statists. The global economy is about to implode and the powers that be, know it. How do you get out of such a mess while still maintaining power and absolute control???
You ensure a World War is birthed and then fomented. The "patriotic fervor" and the subsequent destruction of youthful lives in war will allow the powers to appropriately manage the gross mis-allocation of resources so evident today.....its the human cycle, repeating itself over and over.

[Vessol]

Looks like a False Flag incident to me.

Agreed. In every past incident North Korea has proudly declared it was their doing. Look at how proudly they display our captured ship and every other piece of junk they have done.

This smells very fishy.

[Am3RiCaN_microcosm]

Odd shit.
Been doing a bit of research, out of curiosity.
NK denies the attack. As a rule they are belligerent and rude. And they brag about their military.
The SK ship was in "Disputed" waters. WHY ?

The torpedo was of German origin. NK does not use German Torpedoes.

However SK does. As do others.

And now the war drums are beating.
If the North was picking a fight why deny it?
It does seem that others do want a fight though.

Looks like a False Flag incident to me.

You bring up some interesting points. It does appear that the war drums are beating pretty loudly and IMHO another false flag attack was only a matter of time. This could get interesting...and not in a good way.

[sofia]

Israel uses German subs/torpedos.

Israel hates NK cuz they sell nuke tech to Muslims.

Israel is famous for false flag ops....

USA hits NK....Israel hits Iran....all hell breaks loose...Obama becomes a wartime president...


u do the math..............

[Che]

oh no this just in.. "Asian Stocks, Won Slump on Report North Korea Ordered to Ready for Combat" -- Bloomberg

[Che]

Odd shit.
Been doing a bit of research, out of curiosity.
NK denies the attack. As a rule they are belligerent and rude. And they brag about their military.
The SK ship was in "Disputed" waters. WHY ?

The torpedo was of German origin. NK does not use German Torpedoes.

However SK does. As do others.

And now the war drums are beating.
If the North was picking a fight why deny it?
It does seem that others do want a fight though.

Looks like a False Flag incident to me.

well, wat did u expect of N.K response? "Oh you got me" ? of course they will vehemently oppose any involvement of the incident.

[sofia]

well, wat did u expect of N.K response? "Oh you got me" ? of course they will vehemently oppose any involvement of the incident.

NK has no motive. What do they gain?

Why sink a ship if you are gonna deny it?


Do u know the story of the USS Maine?......Spanish American war

[Vessol]

well, wat did u expect of N.K response? "Oh you got me" ? of course they will vehemently oppose any involvement of the incident.

They've never done that in the past. They've always been very belligerent and have proudly proclaimed every hostile act they have been a part of. This is pretty unbecoming of them.

[tangent4ronpaul]

if the north is losing control of its people, creating a dragon to fight would bring them back into the fold.
government manipulation goes both ways.

Think about the Iran build up - just in time for national elections here...

-t

[pcosmar]

well, wat did u expect of N.K response? "Oh you got me" ? of course they will vehemently oppose any involvement of the incident.

Any other time they pull something they brag about it.
They are arrogant and proud and they brag about it.. Why would they deny this given that the SK ship was in NK territorial waters.(or very close.)

The response I would expect is "FU, Stay out of our waters".

[Che]

NK has no motive. What do they gain?

Why sink a ship if you are gonna deny it?


Do u know the story of the USS Maine?......Spanish American war

this is not the first time N.Korean ships fired upon SK ships. Many skirmishes occured in past 10yrs. O wait, in your definition those skirmishes were an inside job right? And those tunnels by the NK are all deceptively manipulated by SK govt..

Motive?: Battle of Daecheong. retaliation

[tangent4ronpaul]

Any other time they pull something they brag about it.
They are arrogant and proud and they brag about it.. Why would they deny this given that the SK ship was in NK territorial waters.(or very close.)

The response I would expect is "FU, Stay out of our waters".

Interesting... Would a N. Korean torpedo fit in a US subs torpedo tube? Or who elxe might be interested in making that stalemate hot? Iran comes to mind.

False flag?

-t

[pcosmar]

Interesting... Would a N. Korean torpedo fit in a US subs torpedo tube? Or who elxe might be interested in making that stalemate hot? Iran comes to mind.

False flag?

-t

Wouldn't have to. It was not a NK made, or even a Chinese or Russian made torpedo.
It has been Identified as a German Made Torpedo.

A NATO torpedo. NATO does not sell arms to NK.

NK denies this attack, when they usually brag about attacks.
This does not fit their habits.

[Odin]

South Korea and the US wouldn't invade the North. All the North Koreans have been doing for the last 60 years is building defenses preparing for invasion. They are far to well prepared for invasion, plus they could level Seoul to the ground. Millions of people would die if we tried to take North Korea, even if we wanted to and they deserved it.

[puppetmaster]

Wouldn't have to. It was not a NK made, or even a Chinese or Russian made torpedo.
It has been Identified as a German Made Torpedo.

A NATO torpedo. NATO does not sell arms to NK.

NK denies this attack, when they usually brag about attacks.
This does not fit their habits.

It reeks with BS.....but this war, going to happen anyway....

[Prester John]

I'd like to see the source that makes that claim.

The South sank a Nork gunboat last winter so rather than a false flag op it's likely nothing more than basic revenge. Also, it's one thing for the Norks to claim self-defense, it's something else for them to claim they sunk another nation's warship without warning.

[pcosmar]

I'd like to see the source that makes that claim.

The South sank a Nork gunboat last winter so rather than a false flag op it's likely nothing more than basic revenge. Also, it's one thing for the Norks to claim self-defense, it's something else for them to claim they sunk another nation's warship without warning.

Read
It has been widely reported. And in many places by several sources.
http://www.strategypage.com/on_point/20100511232546.aspx

This week, investigators concluded a weapon, possibly a German-made torpedo, destroyed the ship.
http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2010/05/113_65519.html

The multinational investigation team is also closely looking into the possibility that a North Korean submarine fired a German-made torpedo used both by South Korean and American navies in an attempt to dodge its responsibility.

And this is odd since the NK have always bragged about any military actions. Add to that, the SK ship was in North territorial waters.
Why would they deny it?
Unless they really didn't do it.

[puppetmaster]

what other countries that use German subs would benefit from this?:rolleyes:

oh wait, I know.....

[pcosmar]

A good analysis here,
The Sinking of the Cheonan: We Are Being Lied To?
http://beforeitsnews.com/news/48/745/The_Sinking_of_the_Cheonan:_We_Are_Being_Lied_To.h tml


There is no doubt about it, there is no longer any reason to hold back, I have looked at the “evidence” and have concluded that we are being lied to, again, by our “leaders” in the White House in order to fabricate a measure of moral justification for yet another “regime change” campaign or an all out war with North Korea.

[american.swan]

I'm worried about China. I think this whole mess is to trick China into not objecting. I would feel a lot safer in Busan right now, southern South Korea. I agree with everyone here. This is very very odd. Can you imagine China fighting on NKorea's side? South Korea would be a mess. Right now, we can imagine NKorea being wiped out and South Korea not having THAT much damage, but China could make South Korea look like swiss cheese.

Another problem is traffic. Seoul would evacuate and no military would be able to get into Seoul to defend it.

[Krugerrand]

http://japanfocus.org/-Tanaka-Sakai/3361

Who Sank the South Korean Warship Cheonan? A New Stage in the US-Korean War and US-China Relations

In the article that follows, independent journalist Tanaka Sakai hypothesizes about what may have happened on the night of March 26 and after. Drawing on ROK TV and press reports and photographs, some of which were subsequently suppressed, Tanaka places at center stage a range of factors, some fully documented, others speculative, that have been missing, distorted, or silenced in US and ROK narratives: they include the fact and location of the US-ROK joint military exercise that was in progress at the time of the incident and the possibility that the Cheonan was sunk by friendly fire. Tanaka presents evidence suggesting the possibility that a US nuclear submarine was stationed off Byaengnyong Island and that a US vessel may have been sunk during the incident. He also considers anomalies in the role of US ships in the salvage and rescue operations that followed, including the death of an ROK diver in the attempt to recover that vessel.

[osan]

NK would get their ass kicked.

NK has eleven thousand artillery pieces pointed at SK. That is a lot of bang. Asses whooped or not, war is nothing anyone with any brains would want.

We should be asking why NK would suddenly torpedo a SK warship. What possible motive? The timing seems suspicious, given President LillyLiver's rather poor approvals figures.

Is NK the only possible perpetrator of this act? No way. Is it not interesting that the ID markings and serial numbers of the torpedo in question just happened to be found? That reminds me of finding one of the 9/11 terrorist's intact passports laying on the sidewalk. Uh huh.

[osan]

The torpedo was of German origin. NK does not use German Torpedoes.


Then why were the media reporting it as Chinese manufacture?

[osan]

Israel uses German subs/torpedos.

Israel hates NK cuz they sell nuke tech to Muslims.

Israel is famous for false flag ops....

USA hits NK....Israel hits Iran....all hell breaks loose...Obama becomes a wartime president...


u do the math..............

With essentially 4 fronts, LillyLiver finds pretext for suspension of the civil government "until hostilities cease" and remains president until he expires in his 70s?

[osan]

well, wat did u expect of N.K response? "Oh you got me" ? of course they will vehemently oppose any involvement of the incident.

Um, no.

NK is notorious - famous - for rubbing the world's nose in what they accomplish.

Had that SK ship been in NK waters and NK had sunk it, you can bet your hide that they would have been bellicose about it. Sudden disavowal is not tracking here.

But if SK ship was in "disputed" waters and is sunk by heaven only knows who, they have every reason to deny responsibility.

[Vessol]

O_o. Covering their backs I see.

"“It’s possible that North Korea may have used a German torpedo to disguise its attack, knowing that South Korea uses German torpedoes,” the official said."

http://joongangdaily.joins.com/article/view.asp?aid=2920174

[Krugerrand]

O_o. Covering their backs I see.

"“It’s possible that North Korea may have used a German torpedo to disguise its attack, knowing that South Korea uses German torpedoes,” the official said."

http://joongangdaily.joins.com/article/view.asp?aid=2920174

This supports the friendly fire possibility:

http://japanfocus.org/-Tanaka-Sakai/3361

Who Sank the South Korean Warship Cheonan? A New Stage in the US-Korean War and US-China Relations

In the article that follows, independent journalist Tanaka Sakai hypothesizes about what may have happened on the night of March 26 and after. Drawing on ROK TV and press reports and photographs, some of which were subsequently suppressed, Tanaka places at center stage a range of factors, some fully documented, others speculative, that have been missing, distorted, or silenced in US and ROK narratives: they include the fact and location of the US-ROK joint military exercise that was in progress at the time of the incident and the possibility that the Cheonan was sunk by friendly fire. Tanaka presents evidence suggesting the possibility that a US nuclear submarine was stationed off Byaengnyong Island and that a US vessel may have been sunk during the incident. He also considers anomalies in the role of US ships in the salvage and rescue operations that followed, including the death of an ROK diver in the attempt to recover that vessel.

[osan]

I'm worried about China. I think this whole mess is to trick China into not objecting.

Errant, random thought: could this be a ploy to wholly screw China by painting them into a corner? Given the history and relations, were war to break out with the Americans/SKs delivering the opening volley, would that not place China between a rock and a hard place, given the relationships with NK and the USA? They would then have a choice to make - come to NK aid and quell what I am sure they would see as American imperialism in their back yard, or bite their tongues for the sake of trade relations.

Which would they likely choose? If we occupy NK, USA has an even stronger toehold in the Pacific basin. Would China tolerate that? I don't think I would. But the trade... the trade....

If China puts in with NK, they will be in a defacto state of war with us. At that point, we could pretty well repudiate all the US debth they hold, which would hurt them non-trivially.

But if Chinese soldiers start killing American troops and vice versa... hooboy, that could go to bad places very quickly.

[Old Ducker]

If China puts in with NK, they will be in a defacto state of war with us. At that point, we could pretty well repudiate all the US debth they hold, which would hurt them non-trivially.

But if Chinese soldiers start killing American troops and vice versa... hooboy, that could go to bad places very quickly.

I don't see this happening, nor even a new Korean war. The war the neo-cons want is against Iran. Obama has placed three additional carrier groups around that country, not counting the one that's already there.

[tnvoter]

it could have just as well or likely been the Chinese

[Odin]

NK has eleven thousand artillery pieces pointed at SK. That is a lot of bang. Asses whooped or not, war is nothing anyone with any brains would want.


Their military is stronger than we make it out to be. For example, compare North Korea to the United Kingdom:

NK:

PERSONNEL
Total Population: 23,479,088 [2008]
Population Available: 12,414,017 [2008]
Fit for Military Service: 10,280,687 [2008]
Reaching Military Age Annually: 392,016 [2008]
Active Military Personnel: 1,170,000 [2008]
Active Military Reserve: 4,700,000 [2008]
Active Paramilitary Units: 189,000 [2008]

ARMY
Total Land-Based Weapons: 16,400
Tanks: 3,500 [2006]
Armored Personnel Carriers: 2,500 [2006]
Towed Artillery: 3,500 [2006]
Self-Propelled Guns: 4,400 [2006]
Multiple Rocket Launch Systems: 2,500 [2006]
Mortars: 7,500 [2006]
Anti-Aircraft Weapons: 11,000 [2006]

NAVY
Total Navy Ships: 708
Merchant Marine Strength: 167 [2008]
Major Ports and Harbors: 12
Aircraft Carriers: 0 [2008]
Destroyers: 0 [2008]
Submarines: 97 [2008]
Frigates: 3 [2006]
Patrol & Coastal Craft: 492 [2006]
Mine Warfare Craft: 23 [2006]
Amphibious Craft: 140 [2006]

AIR FORCE
Total Aircraft: 1,778 [2006]
Helicopters: 612 [2006]
Serviceable Airports: 77 [2007]

FINANCES (USD)
Defense Budget: $5,500,000,000 [2005]
Purchasing Power: $40,000,000,000 [2007]


UK:

PERSONNEL
Total Population: 60,943,912 [2008]
Population Available: 28,855,100 [2008]
Fit for Military Service: 23,738,184 [2008]
Reaching Military Age Annually: 784,520 [2008]
Active Military Personnel: 195,000 [2008]
Active Military Reserve: 233,860 [2008]
Active Paramilitary Units: 0 [2008]

ARMY
Total Land-Based Weapons: 5,121
Towed Artillery: 455 [2001]

NAVY
Total Navy Ships: 139
Merchant Marine Strength: 518 [2008]
Major Ports and Harbors: 10
Aircraft Carriers: 2 [2008]
Destroyers: 11 [2008]
Submarines: 17 [2008]
Frigates: 21 [2008]
Patrol & Coastal Craft: 9 [2008]
Mine Warfare Craft: 18 [2008]
Amphibious Craft: 13 [2008]

AIR FORCE
Total Aircraft: 1,891 [2003]
Helicopters: 779 [2003]
Serviceable Airports: 449 [2007]

FINANCES (USD)
Defense Budget: $53,148,770,000 [2008]
Foreign Exch. & Gold: $57,300,000,000 [2007]
Purchasing Power: $2,130,000,000,000 [2007]


North Korea has a military of 6 million men, compared with 400,000 for the UK, and only 3 million for the United States including active duty, reserves, and paramilitary.

[pcosmar]

Then why were the media reporting it as Chinese manufacture?
No idea, Misdirection perhaps. They are determined to blame NK even though there is NO evidence that they fired a torpedo.


it could have just as well or likely been the Chinese

http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2010/05/113_65519.html


The government is expected to make public its findings around May 20 as an investigation is underway to determine the manufacturer of the torpedo and who fired it.

The multinational investigation team is also closely looking into the possibility that a North Korean submarine fired a German-made torpedo used both by South Korean and American navies in an attempt to dodge its responsibility.
http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2010/05/120_65600.html

The fragments were confirmed to be those of a powerful explosive substance called "research department explosive (RDX)" which is stronger than trinitrotoluene.

Some reports said the collected RDX is made in Germany and is used by South Korea and many Western navies. North Korea, China and Russia, in general, don't use the German-manufactured gunpowder.
There are several reports from multiple sources that describe it as a German Torpedo. I posted some earlier in this thread.
This was either a False Flag attack or Friendly Fire as US ships were engaged in War Games a with SK at the time.